Asking for some community help from GM's

[xandarr2000]

I am running a small group through Palladium Fantasy RPG actually running one of the written adventures with some modification to story in Adventures in the Northern Wilderness, the adventure with the pixies and the Wolfen. Now to be fair and explain my insanity, I am one of those guys where I slowly accumulate everything and once I can read from start to finish I dive in. So I have not ready through any other system beyond 2nd edition PFRPG. My stumbling block is understanding how combat works. I mistakenly took initiative only once, and kept the same order for the length of the encounter. After rereading things due to my son's comments it appears that you re-roll initiative each new round of combat? The other thing I am not understanding is how initiative plays in since you basically cycle through people over and over until everyone has exhausted their actions. So basically I am wanting someone to explain combat basics for this game like they would to a child. I don't know if I am just reading it wrong or if too many years of D&D have warped me. I tried searching the internet for campaign logs or something where I could see examples of combat but so far no luck in finding anything. I tried lurking in game rooms but I just had bad luck in never seeing any sort of combat take place just roleplay.

Thank you in advance I know I am asking a pretty lame question but I am old and learning a new system is not going as smoothly as I wanted it too. Still loving it though.

[The Beast]

Person A has 5 attacks.

Person B has 6 attacks.

Person C has four.

C wins init with a 17, followed by A (10), and then B (2). C takes his first attack, then A, and finally B. It repeats this order until all three no longer have any attacks left. This means C will be done first while B still has two more to go. Once everyone is out of attacks you roll for a new initiative order. This example isn't including any actions that typically uses up the next attack (like dodging) or so forth. If my group was playing tonight I'd have you lurk. However a couple of us had to cancel for tonight so we're postponing until two Fridays from now I think.

There's also house rules that modify combat orders so those with more attacks use them throughout the round instead of just at the end but I've never had the chance to play a combat sequence to see if they'd be better or not.

[Jerell]

Thank you in advance I know I am asking a pretty lame question but I am old and learning a new system is not going as smoothly as I wanted it too. Still loving it though.

No worries man. I remember having questions like that myself when learning the system. Also took me a little while to get the hang of some new systems.

First off you do indeed roll for initiative every melee round.

Some things to remember, and why initiative can matter-

- Sneak attacks and long range attacks automatically have initiative. I find that gets missed often.

- It can make a difference for interrupting spells depending what spell casting system you're using (how many actions a spell takes to cast, main book v. MoM). If you're using Main Book magic rules and every spell takes two or three actions to cast, initiative could determine how many chances you get to interrupt. If you're using MoM and the mage can cast quick in one action, your chance to engage him in melee to interrupt casting could hinge completely on initiative.

- Also dodging (and rolling with impact). This is where initiative can be very important. If you have to dodge, you give up your next melee attack/action. So if you go first and your opponent has to dodge, you can potentially keep them on the defensive for the melee round. (Evil GM tip: If your players aren't packing shields have some bow armed bad guys or something fire at them, then you can force them to dodge, run for cover, or take the hits.)

- Of course if you get to go first it's that much less damage you take, if you eliminate a threat before it has a chance to harm you. That's one less attack coming your way.

If you have further questions old boy, ask away. I'm sure someone will have the answer.

[Veknironth]

Well, as it turns out, I made a thread on the very topic of how to run combat quickly and how to handle initiative. It's the Combat/Initiative thread. There are a lot of good ideas in there.

Trying to explain how combat works is far different than explaining how to run combat in the game. Your son is correct with regards to re-rolling initiative at the end of every round. Beast's quick and dirty description is also correct. However, there are a lot of considerations that come up. For example, if Person A has 7 attacks and Person B has 4, do you want to intersperse the attacks or do you want to have Person B stand like a hope after his 4 attacks and let Person A wail on him?

One solution I've seen is to have everyone roll initiative and to track the amounts that come up. Then you divide the roll by the number of attacks and the person attacks on those numbers. Then you start at the highest roll and count down. When you get to the number where a character has an attack, that character can perform his or her action. In Beast's example, A rolls a 21 (let's say a bonus to initiative), B a 16, and C a 7. So, A will attack on 21, 17, 13, 8, 4. B attacks on 16, 13, 10, 7, 4, 1. C attacks on 7, 5, 3, 1. That's how it works at its best. Things go awry when someone rolls a 1. Does the person stand still for 14 seconds or so and then turn into a dynamo, or does that person lose most of his/her attacks? IT also can slow combat down quite a lot.

Personally, I'd sort of wing it and sandwich the attacks in. IF a person has twice as many attacks as an opponent, it would attack twice to each one attack by its opponent. If you have something like 7 and 5, I'd have the person with 7 attack twice right in the middle of the round. My reasoning is that the attacker with more attacks is essentially attacking more quickly than the opponent (once every 3 seconds vs every 4) and at some point will get two attacks in.

Another initiative question is what do you do with a group of NPC's? If there are 10 orcs, do they roll initiative individually, or as a group? If there is a large group combat, do you go through the attacks of the PC's one at a time? I find that to be slow and I have my recommendations of how to handle combat on the thread I mentioned earlier. IF I were a better poster, I'd have included a link.

-Vek
"Any more questions I can make more complicated?"

[Veknironth]

Well, I still am not sure how to post the link in the body of the message. I know it's not straight html. But, below is the URL for the Combat/Init thread.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=148314

-Vek
"Yeah my attempt to make a link required me to edit this."

[xandarr2000]

Thank you everyone...I use a gamemaster board the one with the magnetic strips that are dry/erase coated, so knowing this in advance I am going to change it up to match, actually makes it easy.

Thanks again so much

[Carl Gleba]

Yeah its a good group of people here, well most are. Please always feel free to ask anything. These guys know the game well and are always willing to help out new GM's. Don't sweat the little stuff. As you get more familiar with the rules I'm sure your style and way of running will evolve. Just remember the first rule to have fun!

[drewkitty ~..~]

Person A has 5 attacks.

Person B has 6 attacks.

Person C has four.

...snip

I take it you used your house rule to add in 2 APM for Living with these totals?
(Just making the point for the OP was already confused to eliminate even more confusion because the 2 APM for living are not in the PF2 canon rules.)

[The Beast]

Person A has 5 attacks.

Person B has 6 attacks.

Person C has four.

...snip

I take it you used your house rule to add in 2 APM for Living with these totals?
(Just making the point for the OP was already confused to eliminate even more confusion because the 2 APM for living are not in the PF2 canon rules.)

No, it was all random numbers.

[The Dark Elf]

If unsure - ask, ask ask!

If still unsure - ask again until you are clear (or happy doing things a way you like). Even if it's something everyday, we really dont mind.

[Zer0 Kay]

With all that said the phrase loose initiative seems odd as it really only sets up who goes first in a given melee. It would make more sense but require more words to say that the player now goes last in the cycle of attacks. To use the example above. Instead of continuing the C,B,A cycle if C looses init. The cycle would go C,A,B and then A,B,C. So though they didn't technical loose init as it is no longer rolled in the melee they are put last in the cycle. And I've always made this who loose horror factor saves not just go to the end of a cycle but wait until everyone's actions for the round are done.

[The Dark Elf]

With all that said the phrase loose initiative seems odd as it really only sets up who goes first in a given melee. It would make more sense but require more words to say that the player now goes last in the cycle of attacks. To use the example above. Instead of continuing the C,B,A cycle if C looses init. The cycle would go C,A,B and then A,B,C. So though they didn't technical loose init as it is no longer rolled in the melee they are put last in the cycle. And I've always made this who loose horror factor saves not just go to the end of a cycle but wait until everyone's actions for the round are done.

Wouldnt the round go: C, B, A (A's attack causes C to lose initiative so the next round of attacks goes) B, A, C (So both B & A get their next attacks before C which can make a difference). No?

[Zer0 Kay]

With all that said the phrase loose initiative seems odd as it really only sets up who goes first in a given melee. It would make more sense but require more words to say that the player now goes last in the cycle of attacks. To use the example above. Instead of continuing the C,B,A cycle if C looses init. The cycle would go C,A,B and then A,B,C. So though they didn't technical loose init as it is no longer rolled in the melee they are put last in the cycle. And I've always made this who loose horror factor saves not just go to the end of a cycle but wait until everyone's actions for the round are done.

Wouldnt the round go: C, B, A (A's attack causes C to lose initiative so the next round of attacks goes) B, A, C (So both B & A get their next attacks before C which can make a difference). No?

Yes. Sorry, my overwhelming desire to put the letters in order made even two edits ineffective. Thanks for correcting that.