Zombie Senses

[Veknironth]

Well, after having several discussions about the A Song of Ice and Fire living dead vs the The Walking Dead walkers, I decided to revive (see what I did there?) an old question of mine. How do Zombies perceive their environment? They might be missing their old sensory organs and even if those organs are intact, how would they function without electrical impulses sending messages to the brain. The obvious answer, which separates the ASOIAF from TWD is magic!

However, that leads to other questions. For example, if a necromancer or mage animates dead and tells them to attack someone, how do the zombies know whom to attack? Can the Necromancer point at someone and the undead can follow the pointing like a smart dog? Or is it that the magic somehow allows the creatures to just know what their creator means and there are never any misunderstandings. IF the zombie is on guard duty can it be fooled? Can someone dress as the necromancer, or a changeling or other shape shifter take the necromancer's form and walk by? What about a nasty mind mage using domination on the necromancer and controlling the body?

-Vek
"FTI, the TWD's entire zombie setting falls apart upon close inspection."

[Whiskeyjack]

As much as I love zombie shows, I'm always stuck with the realization that they're an impossible entity. Even if they did become real, as soon as it drops below feeding, those that weren't torn to pieces by scavengers would be easy picking when they couldn't move their frozen bodies. That's why I prefer them in fantasy settings, because magic.
I've always gone with them having their natural senses restored magically. Given their relative brainlessness, they could either be incredibly easy, or near impossible to trick.
I think I'd allow the mage creating them the choice of what enhancements he throws into them to allow them to see through illusions/invisibility/shapechanging etc depending on their spell knowledge and power.

[kiralon]

My Zombies See Aura 60ft-300ft. Daylight reduces it to about 60ft, but about 300ft at night time, and can hear like humans. Some zombies are better, some worse but that's about it. They recognise intelligent humanoid as lunch.

[Prysus]

How do Zombies perceive their environment? They might be missing their old sensory organs and even if those organs are intact, how would they function without electrical impulses sending messages to the brain.

Greetings and Salutations. Since this is being asked on the Palladium Fantasy forums, I'm going to use that as my reference for this Zombie discussion (Dead Reign may vary, as well as different shows, movies, books, etc.). The spell (Invocation on page 212, if you want to use a different one for reference, let me know which one) says the body can be dead for no more than 6 hours. So we won't have to worry about organ decay in that short time. In theory the eyes could've been cut out or something, but then you'd probably just find a different corpse to use. The locations need to be a graveyard (not sure how many graveyards have bodies dead only 6 hours or less) or a battlefield littered with bodies (in this case, you have plenty to choose from, don't pick the defective one). Also, since the body can fully regenerate, this can help resolve any losses taken in battle, etc. So you might be able to rip out a Zombie's eyes to temporarily blind it, but it'll eventually heal those eyes back.

Now, if the eyes and ears can't send impulses to the brain, that will be a problem. But how will the body in general move if it can't receive impulses? In the end, you have to suspend some disbelief or answer with magic.

However, that leads to other questions. For example, if a necromancer or mage animates dead and tells them to attack someone, how do the zombies know whom to attack? Can the Necromancer point at someone and the undead can follow the pointing like a smart dog? Or is it that the magic somehow allows the creatures to just know what their creator means and there are never any misunderstandings.

The Zombie's I.Q. is 7. I think that actually makes it smarter than Forrest Gump (at least on paper). But in the end, the mage will probably need to communicate with words and gestures. I say this because of the Mummy write up on page 210. While not the same, the Zombie does refer back to the Mummy a few times. The Mummy can only follow simple commands, and is incapable of carrying out anything complex. I bring this up because it shows that the Mummy can't simply be commanded with thought or will, but in the examples the Wizard needs to use actual words. If it was simply carrying out the will via a mental link, then the Mummy could follow whatever commands were given, complex or not. With the Zombie, it's similar, but you have a much smarter underling (though still slow-witted). As such, choose your words carefully. Say a line like: "Take care of him!" may result in the Zombie actually trying to care for someone, instead of killing them. Just saying.

IF the zombie is on guard duty can it be fooled? Can someone dress as the necromancer, or a changeling or other shape shifter take the necromancer's form and walk by? What about a nasty mind mage using domination on the necromancer and controlling the body?

Well, we have lines like: "The zombie will only obey the person who created it ..." Not "and anyone who looks like it, or talks like him, or has a similar hairstyle." The ritual is performed using the mage's blood. This, to me, creates a bond between the two. Even if the zombie is fully destroyed, after 48 hours it'll reform and seek out its master. I'd think it has to have some way to find that master again (but I could be wrong). Once again, to me, this would indicate some type of mystic bond. So simply looking like the creator won't do any good. However, I'd say the Mind Mage controlling the creator's body can give commands. Everything that is the mage is still there: Mind, Body, and Soul (though a couple of those might be suppressed during the control). As such, the Zombie will still recognize the creator as the creator (regardless of who's in control).

"FTI, the TWD's entire zombie setting falls apart upon close inspection."

Most things involving zombies falls apart if you think too hard about them. Of course, I don't actually watch The Walking Dead, so it's possible it's worse than most.

That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Veknironth]

Well, I agree completely that the sensory organs don't matter since magic is involved. I think that was my initial paragraph. It's much better to have magic clear up all those things that pedants like me use to pick nits. IF you're making a full on zombie, using the mage blood, I agree it would allow the zombie to immediately recognize its creator from an impostor. So, I think the zombie is pretty well suited as a guard that prevents all things except the creator from passing it. If the creator wants to make exceptions there will be trouble. I also think it would be pretty good in combat with a creator directing it. "Kill that man" would not require much more than the creator somehow sending a sense of the target through whatever mystic bond was created. I think that being directed in combat would be true with animated dead (or animated objects for that matter) as well.

Would that mystic bond continue after the creator is no longer paying attention to directing it? For example, you raise 6 skeletons and tell them to kill the orcs. Then you are attacked by an orc and sort of lose track of your minions because you're focused on not being cleaved. I'd expect the dead would be able to have some sense of what an orc is from the creator, but I guess they'd ignore any enemy kobolds, ogres, or whatever else until the creator can take stock of what's happening and give additional commands.

How easily could the animated dead be fooled by playing possum? The zombie strikes you, your armor absorbs it and you fall down. Looks like you're dead to the zombie, right? If the creator has his or her wits still, there could be additional commands "Keep hitting that Wolfen, it's not dead yet!". But if the creator is in combat, what does the animated dead do when an opponent goes prone in front of it? does it continue to strike until its target is beaten to paste, never acquiring a new target? Does it ignore the prone body and look for a new threat?

-Vek
"Aside from the zombies being still alive in TWD, how does a blood born pathogen spread so quickly and thoroughly?"

[Prysus]

Well, I agree completely that the sensory organs don't matter since magic is involved. I think that was my initial paragraph. It's much better to have magic clear up all those things that pedants like me use to pick nits.

Greetings and Salutations. I think my main confusion with that one is more than you focused on the sensory organs as a problem, but not the fact the rest of the body can move in a controlled, directed fashion. I figure, through the Zombie process, there would need to be some version of brain synapses regardless (even if not as we currently understand them). Otherwise, at best, the zombie would just be a twitching mass on the floor (body parts just moving randomly with no focus or control).

IF you're making a full on zombie, using the mage blood, I agree it would allow the zombie to immediately recognize its creator from an impostor. So, I think the zombie is pretty well suited as a guard that prevents all things except the creator from passing it. If the creator wants to make exceptions there will be trouble.

Well, the book says the mage can make exceptions, so that (in itself) shouldn't be a problem. But if you mean that exception can be copied by clever others (such as a Changeling) and such, then I agree.

I also think it would be pretty good in combat with a creator directing it. "Kill that man" would not require much more than the creator somehow sending a sense of the target through whatever mystic bond was created. I think that being directed in combat would be true with animated dead (or animated objects for that matter) as well.

I'm a little torn about the mental direction, but in the end I think I can get behind this. As for other animated dead, I guess it would depend on which type of animated dead (or object) it is. For simplicity, I'll break it down into 3 spells: Animate & Control Dead, Create Mummy, Create Zombie. While there are more, these three could probably be used as guidelines for the others.

Animate and Control Dead: The dead are little more than puppets. They have no intelligence. These Animated Dead must remain within line of sight, then they cannot be animated or controlled. So, the mage is literally controlling them with will on this one.
Create Mummy: Very, very, very stupid minion. This is the creature that makes me feel the most unsure about the bond giving the dead minion a sense of intent. The book states that the Mummy will try to carry out orders to the best of its abilities and cannot take complex orders. If the mage's will could be made clear through the bond, then I don't know if these would be problems. If this could be communicated with the bond/will, then I think the Mummy would be able to carry out orders with far better precision (as if these complex orders are its own thoughts, and therefore natural instead of complex).
Create Zombie: We've already discussed that one, so I won't go into it more.

Would that mystic bond continue after the creator is no longer paying attention to directing it? For example, you raise 6 skeletons and tell them to kill the orcs. Then you are attacked by an orc and sort of lose track of your minions because you're focused on not being cleaved. I'd expect the dead would be able to have some sense of what an orc is from the creator, but I guess they'd ignore any enemy kobolds, ogres, or whatever else until the creator can take stock of what's happening and give additional commands.

Animate and Control Dead: Did the Wizard lose sight of them? If so, then he also lost the ability to animate and control them. It's part of the spell. If not, then the mage can continue without penalty (per the book). Personally, I think trying to keep them animated while under attack would be some combat penalties (at least a loss of one attack per melee, as such things are fairly common when concentration is involved, as well as some other potential negatives), but that's just personal opinion/house rule territory.
Create Mummy: This should have no affect on a Mummy. The Mummy can follow orders such as: "Kill all who enter." This is a book example. If the mage had to be present the entire time (especially since the mage is listed as an automatic exception). The Mummy also exists until destroyed, which could exceed the lifetime of the creator. In fact, I think there's an adventure in one of the books with a Mummy still carrying out orders (though it's creator should be long since dead). So if the Mummy continues serving even after the mage is dead, I doubt a simple little attack on the creator will do much.
Create Zombie: See the Mummy answer, only 20% cooler. The zombie can even carry out missions like retrieve an artifact, follow someone, or kidnap a person.

How easily could the animated dead be fooled by playing possum? The zombie strikes you, your armor absorbs it and you fall down. Looks like you're dead to the zombie, right? If the creator has his or her wits still, there could be additional commands "Keep hitting that Wolfen, it's not dead yet!". But if the creator is in combat, what does the animated dead do when an opponent goes prone in front of it? does it continue to strike until its target is beaten to paste, never acquiring a new target? Does it ignore the prone body and look for a new threat?

Animate and Control Dead: Controlled directly by the magic user. Is the mage fooled? If yes, then Animated Dead stop. If no, then Animated Dead continue to be manipulated like the puppets they are.
Create Mummy: With the low intelligence, for some reason I see it as more primal and more likely to just keep pounding and ripping at an opponent until there's almost nothing left of it (and long after it's dead). But this is a judgment call. It is pretty stupid, so I'd imagine it could be quite easily fooled (like I'd imagine some classic Bugs Bunny tactics to work quite well).
Create Zombie: The smartest of the lot. Harder to fool than the Mummy (because it's smarter), but at the same time easier (because that extra thought is more likely to mislead it in things like stopping once they think the target is dead).

Anyways, those are my personal takes on the questions, based upon the information from the books. Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Tor]

Gotta love the superior Necromancer OCC ability where you can send the animated dead out of sight range and they keep ticking

As much as I love zombie shows, I'm always stuck with the realization that they're an impossible entity. Even if they did become real, as soon as it drops below feeding, those that weren't torn to pieces by scavengers would be easy picking when they couldn't move their frozen bodies.

Do all zombies get immobilized by cold though? What about parka zombies? Or zombies who stay indoors?

Plus not all places reach freezing temperatures. Those that do, may not have very much food for survivors to rely on.

[URLeader Hobbes]

How do Zombies perceive their environment? They might be missing their old sensory organs and even if those organs are intact, how would they function without electrical impulses sending messages to the brain.

Palladium zombies actually regenerate. Per Page 213 in the Create Zombie Ritual. So while it may be a walking corpse it will regenerate within 2 days. This would include all sensory organs as well.

For example, if a necromancer or mage animates dead and tells them to attack someone, how do the zombies know whom to attack? Can the Necromancer point at someone and the undead can follow the pointing like a smart dog? Or is it that the magic somehow allows the creatures to just know what their creator means and there are never any misunderstandings.

Palladium Zombies have an IQ of 7 so they can understand commands and while they are below average intelligence. I'd say they are at least as smart as your average dog.

IF the zombie is on guard duty can it be fooled?

Yes zombies can be tricked.

Can someone dress as the necromancer, or a changeling or other shape shifter take the necromancer's form and walk by? What about a nasty mind mage using domination on the necromancer and controlling the body?

It all depends on how convincing to the zombie the deception is. I'd say the zombie would get a perception roll and base the target number off how good or bad the disguise is. A mind mage controlling the Necromancer who made the zombie will easily deceive the zombie as it IS the actual master of the zombie.

[URLeader Hobbes]

One question I have on the Create Zombie Ritual is why it has to be done in secret???

I understand that most people won't be psyched about a necromancer zombifying the populace, but is secrecy really necessary? I would think a band of monsters who ally with a necromancer might be willing to help out, especially if it furthers both sides aims.

So secrecy... What gives???

[Veknironth]

Well, Hobbes, you must remember the first rule of Create Zombie Rituals.

-Vek
"Shh."

[Tor]

Totally overlooked that 'secretly' bit until now, all focus was on the 'full moon' bit.

Does make you wonder 'how secret is secret' though. Like does that mean nobody else but you can participate in the ritual because another person witnessing it makes it non-secret?

Another thumbs-up for mummies then I guess.