Wolvenar

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Wolvenar

Unread post by eliakon »

In another thread I was taking issue with the timeline of the Wovenar cult in Bizantium. When I offered that Wolvenar is supposed to be new and seems to date from the founding of the Empire I was told that there is some myth that the Elves created the Wolfen 10,000+ years ago. I am wondering....
Can anyone tell me where this legend is found?
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

eliakon wrote:In another thread I was taking issue with the timeline of the Wovenar cult in Bizantium. When I offered that Wolvenar is supposed to be new and seems to date from the founding of the Empire I was told that there is some myth that the Elves created the Wolfen 10,000+ years ago. I am wondering....
Can anyone tell me where this legend is found?


Wolvenar didn't come into existance the same moment the Wolven did, his actual writeup makes clear wolven existed long before he did. Wolvenar is new, it took a long time for the wolven population to reach a point to spontainously spawn their own racial god.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by eliakon »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
eliakon wrote:In another thread I was taking issue with the timeline of the Wovenar cult in Bizantium. When I offered that Wolvenar is supposed to be new and seems to date from the founding of the Empire I was told that there is some myth that the Elves created the Wolfen 10,000+ years ago. I am wondering....
Can anyone tell me where this legend is found?


Wolvenar didn't come into existance the same moment the Wolven did, his actual writeup makes clear wolven existed long before he did. Wolvenar is new, it took a long time for the wolven population to reach a point to spontainously spawn their own racial god.

I know. I am assuming that the reference to the cult being 10,000 is a mistake. But I am curious as to the statement about the elves making the wolfen. Is there anything on this (besides the rifter animation mage)
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Prysus »

eliakon wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
eliakon wrote:In another thread I was taking issue with the timeline of the Wovenar cult in Bizantium. When I offered that Wolvenar is supposed to be new and seems to date from the founding of the Empire I was told that there is some myth that the Elves created the Wolfen 10,000+ years ago. I am wondering....
Can anyone tell me where this legend is found?


Wolvenar didn't come into existance the same moment the Wolven did, his actual writeup makes clear wolven existed long before he did. Wolvenar is new, it took a long time for the wolven population to reach a point to spontainously spawn their own racial god.

I know. I am assuming that the reference to the cult being 10,000 is a mistake. But I am curious as to the statement about the elves making the wolfen. Is there anything on this (besides the rifter animation mage)

Greetings and Salutations. The closest I can find is in Book IV: Adventures in the Northern Wilderness on page 19. This takes place after the Elf-Dwarf War (therefore can't be over 10,000 years old, but could easily fall into the Millennium of Purification). This talks about Elves being spiritual leaders to the Wolfen. There's a line that reads: "This racial birthing is one reason for the Wolfen's current admiration for all things Elven." If taken out of context (or memory playing tricks) could seem like the Elves created (gave birth) to the Wolfen. However, in the full reading, it's more about the Elves rising them up on an intellectual and spiritual level (more of a rebirth).

Note: Even with the story from Construct Animation Magic in Rifter #26, they didn't really succeed until near the end of the war (which would've been more like 8,000 years ago, not 10,000).

Discussing the age of the Wolfen race in general, looking at the PF2 main book we have a couple of dates. On page 279 we see a reference that sounds like the Wolfen came into existence during the Age of a Thousand Magicks (which means sometime between 70,000 years ago and only 18,000 years ago). Then during the Age of Elves, they started forming warrior clans (this is before the Elf-Dwarf War ever begain). On page 281 it mentions the Wolfen and other canine races emerging 12,000 years ago. While the two dates do conflict to some degree, if you wanted to make them both accurate, I'd say that 12,000 years ago (during the Age of Elves) is when they started making warrior clans and emerged as more than just a wild race without any real structure.

Personally, I had actually thought there was a rumor about the Elves creating the Wolfen as well, but that the same section (just shortly after) said that the rumor was untrue. However, I'm thinking I may have just been misremembering the Book IV section I mentioned above.

As for Wolvenar and 10,000 years ago, while it seems like a date mistake/oversight, I can think of a few possible ways to explain it.

1: Wolvenar is a new and young god, but for a good 10,000 years ago isn't that long at all. However, that doesn't really mesh with the section that says it's believed he was formed by the unification into the Wolfen Empire (even if we give the benefit of the doubt that date is 580 years ago when the tribes started to unify and war with the humans, that's still not 10,000 years ago).

2: The legend of Wolvenar giving it to them isn't a mistake, it might just be wrong. Legends aren't known for being 100% accurate in my experience.

3: Perhaps Wolvenar (in some form) did exist back then. Lictalon (an Elf) lived during the Age of Chaos, but fairly sure there's still references to him surviving long after. Perhaps Wolvenar existed at the time as some epic level heroic Wolfen and (through some means) survived a few thousand years, but then rose to god-hood. For some reason, he lost his memories during this experience though. So he doesn't remember being a mortal, the other gods may not recognize him (they don't know every mortal, I'm sure), yet there are tales of his deeds even before he was a god.

4: Time travel. At some point at a later date (with all these Rifts in time and space, it's quite possible), Wolvenar travels into the past (he may even help forge the Wolfen people into what they are today). He gives his sword (which is forged by Belimar at a later date) to the Eoten's where it is eventually lost in a tomb for 10,000+ years.

Okay, that's all for now. Hope some of that helps. Farewell and safe journeys.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by eliakon »

Thanks.

Hmmmm, there is explicitly time-travel in PF....and the Northern Pantheon has at least one time-twister....
I could get behind this theory. It would help explain why the current cult isn't looking for it....they are just now connecting the dots sufficiently to figure out what it is......
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Tor »

The belief he was formed by the Empire could just be mistaken. He might have been formed earlier but only come into prominence with the Wolven Empire, which is when he found a worshipper base and grew in power.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Prysus »

Tor wrote:The belief he was formed by the Empire could just be mistaken. He might have been formed earlier but only come into prominence with the Wolven Empire, which is when he found a worshipper base and grew in power.

Greetings and Salutations. I had considered something like that, but considering even Od and the other gods (including Wolvenar) don't seem to know what's the truth, at the very least the timeline would probably need to add up (his emergence as a god around that time). The tale also has him being brought in as a pup, so it's unlikely he'd simply been a lesser god and raised to a higher level ... unless it involved a total rebirth even Wolvenar can't remember (which is along the concept of what I was suggesting in #3 above, for the record). Farewell and safe journeys to all.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

I consider it this way: the wolven may have been around for thousands of years (some time during the age of a thousand magics, as someone noted earlier), and 12,000 years ago they started forming organised warrior clans - a couple of thousand years after it began, this is what (may have) sparked the creation of a new god. Wolvenar then spent the next 10,000 years as a juvenile god, maturing into an adult, just as the wolfen were maturing as a society. 10,000 years is a short time for a god. Worship of him throughout this period would have been rare; the cult of wolvenar in Byzantium a notable exception. It is only recently that Wolvenar has grown into adulthood and become what you might call a true god. This 'coming of age' may have coincided with the 'coming of age' of the wolfen - the creation of their Empire. Remember that the idea that he came to being because of the emergence of the Wolfen Empire is presented as only a theory in D&G.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Jerell »

Prysus wrote:Greetings and Salutations. The closest I can find is in Book IV: Adventures in the Northern Wilderness on page 19. This takes place after the Elf-Dwarf War (therefore can't be over 10,000 years old, but could easily fall into the Millennium of Purification). This talks about Elves being spiritual leaders to the Wolfen. There's a line that reads: "This racial birthing is one reason for the Wolfen's current admiration for all things Elven." If taken out of context (or memory playing tricks) could seem like the Elves created (gave birth) to the Wolfen. However, in the full reading, it's more about the Elves rising them up on an intellectual and spiritual level (more of a rebirth).


There is a rumor about Elves creating Wolfen in one of the books. It's never confirmed as I remember... And would seem to not be true given the main book. It's been a long time since I read it though, I can't remember what book it's in (Maybe in one of the Coffin books?).
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Library Ogre »

IIRC, the "Elves created Wolfen" is in the main book, and is used to explain the Wolfen's extreme respect for elves.

Of course, we can always go back to the question of "Which came first, the Wolfen or the Wolvenar"? Did Wolvenar create the Wolfen, or did the Wolfen create a god in their own image... or are the two unrelated? In an unfortunately cut part of MoM, I talked about the tensions between the cult around Wolvenar, Fenry devil worship, Set and Anubis's cults, and the Ice Dragon worship of the Dragonwright that exists in the Wolfen Empire as to who is the true "God of the Wolfen".

To explain the discrepancy, I think it most likely that Wolvenar is an old deity only recently come to prominence. He may have been a relatively local deity (a small clan within one of the great tribes holding him as a divine ancestor, for example), who got catapulted to the forefront with the ecumenical nature of the Empire. Suddenly, he's got a huge following (even if everyone isn't strictly monotheist about him), and that's giving him more than he knows what to do with, and is seeing him written into the "big myths"... he was once a hero-god, and is now being written as being possibly the offspring of Od, Loknar, or some other deity (which, as a hero-god, he might always have been, but now people are taking the claim seriously).
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

Mark Hall wrote:IIRC, the "Elves created Wolfen" is in the main book, and is used to explain the Wolfen's extreme respect for elves.

Of course, we can always go back to the question of "Which came first, the Wolfen or the Wolvenar"? Did Wolvenar create the Wolfen, or did the Wolfen create a god in their own image... or are the two unrelated? In an unfortunately cut part of MoM, I talked about the tensions between the cult around Wolvenar, Fenry devil worship, Set and Anubis's cults, and the Ice Dragon worship of the Dragonwright that exists in the Wolfen Empire as to who is the true "God of the Wolfen".

To explain the discrepancy, I think it most likely that Wolvenar is an old deity only recently come to prominence. He may have been a relatively local deity (a small clan within one of the great tribes holding him as a divine ancestor, for example), who got catapulted to the forefront with the ecumenical nature of the Empire. Suddenly, he's got a huge following (even if everyone isn't strictly monotheist about him), and that's giving him more than he knows what to do with, and is seeing him written into the "big myths"... he was once a hero-god, and is now being written as being possibly the offspring of Od, Loknar, or some other deity (which, as a hero-god, he might always have been, but now people are taking the claim seriously).

See - yet another reason why I wish Palladium had published the rest of the Mysteries of Magic stuff. Mark, camp outside Kevin's door until he agrees to publish it!
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

Maybe I'm just crazy, but I'm positive I read somewhere ( I believe phase world) that stated that the wolfen on palladium are actually the descendants from a crashed ship from that galaxy. Over the centuries they devolved into barbarism, taking thousands of years to crawl back out, similar to the yin sloth humans.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Soldier of Od wrote:See - yet another reason why I wish Palladium had published the rest of the Mysteries of Magic stuff. Mark, camp outside Kevin's door until he agrees to publish it!


That part of my life is over. I have other projects I'd rather work on than one I first submitted 14 years ago (Maryann sent the official response to my proposal; consider that), and resubmitted nine years ago. If they're going to do anything with the manuscript, I imagine they would've by now.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

Mark Hall wrote:
Soldier of Od wrote:See - yet another reason why I wish Palladium had published the rest of the Mysteries of Magic stuff. Mark, camp outside Kevin's door until he agrees to publish it!


That part of my life is over. I have other projects I'd rather work on than one I first submitted 14 years ago (Maryann sent the official response to my proposal; consider that), and resubmitted nine years ago. If they're going to do anything with the manuscript, I imagine they would've by now.


Wow, has it been that long? Shame. Good luck with your current projects!
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Tor »

Pet theory:

Loknar was messing around being a female wolf and got knocked up, just like with Od's horse.

Wolvenar is the result of that, but this time, he managed to keep his shame secret, and will not tell the others.

Wolvenar began as a demigod, which was when he did all his rune-swording adventures and stuff, and eventually gained worshippers until people finally acknowledged he was a god as he became one.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Library Ogre »

My pet theory is that Wolvenar is actually the offspring of Heim or Epim... Heim could disappear for centuries and most of her pantheon wouldn't find it unusual, and Epim can keep secrets.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by eliakon »

My pet theory is that the Dragons and Gods book is actually totally accurate.
The wolves of Odguard showed up shortly after the founding of the Empire with a pup, and dropped him off.
He is not related to any of the Northern Gods by blood. He is a foundling and fosterling of unknown parentage.

This has the advantages of not needing to rewrite the history' invent a totally new unmentioned secret history for one of the gods/goddesses; doesn't invalidate the previous books; and provides a story hook if I want to explore his back story (one that doesn't end in 'and then you find out the darkest most hidden secret of a god and you all die')
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Library Ogre »

LOL. Not bad, eliakon. Though, given how much the Northern Gods are expys for the Aesir, I think the most likely is some variation on Tor's*... Hel has a baby brother.


*Though Od's horse isn't the result of Loknar feeling frisky; they decided to sanitize it, and give him the power to give something double legs.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

The references you're looking for about Elves possibly creating the Wolfen can be found in
Northern Hinterlands. Don't have a page number right (at work :( ). There is definately some
blurriness between Wolvenar's rise to godhood and the rise of the Wolfen.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Prysus »

Reagren Wright wrote:The references you're looking for about Elves possibly creating the Wolfen can be found in
Northern Hinterlands. Don't have a page number right (at work :( ). There is definately some
blurriness between Wolvenar's rise to godhood and the rise of the Wolfen.

Greetings and Salutations. Good call! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. :ok: So it's Northern Hinterlands, page 40.

To summarize, the rumor states the Elves created the Wolfen during the Elf-Dwarf War (I think a fair bit into it, judging by the events, but I could be wrong). The theory was started by one man, who refuses to provide any sources (though he claims he has them). There are points made why it could very well be false, as well as some reasons how it could be true. Of course, this theory conflicts with the timeline listed in the PF main book. Note: This version does fit into the Rifter #26 article though.

Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Tor »

eliakon wrote:My pet theory is that the Dragons and Gods book is actually totally accurate. The wolves of Odguard showed up shortly after the founding of the Empire with a pup, and dropped him off.

Which theories contradict D+G? Mine doesn't.

eliakon wrote:He is not related to any of the Northern Gods by blood.
Which would be your pet theory, D+G doesn't say anything like that.

eliakon wrote:This has the advantages of not needing to rewrite the history' invent a totally new unmentioned secret history for one of the gods/goddesses; doesn't invalidate the previous books; and provides a story hook if I want to explore his back story (one that doesn't end in 'and then you find out the darkest most hidden secret of a god and you all die')

The strange thing is... it might not be that deep or dark. Od/Locknar have both 'put children into odd beasts', neither deny paternity. If we were looking at similarities to Norse, Loki's the father of the Fenrir (ends in R) wolf, Wolvenar (ends in R) is a wolf...

Some claim he might have something do with the Fenry wolves (Dyval) or Alu (Hades). Rhada is the ruler of the Fenry...

What if, when Loknar was visiting his daughter Hel in Dyval, he hooked up with Rhada or something? He might have turned his Primal Manifestation into a wolf and pretended to be one of her Fenry. We know Rhada is a bit of a furfan so who knows what she got up to before Abdul-Ra showed up. Maybe getting her heart broken by a canine-shaped god is what led her preferences to switch toward feline?
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:
eliakon wrote:My pet theory is that the Dragons and Gods book is actually totally accurate. The wolves of Odguard showed up shortly after the founding of the Empire with a pup, and dropped him off.

Which theories contradict D+G? Mine doesn't.

eliakon wrote:He is not related to any of the Northern Gods by blood.
Which would be your pet theory, D+G doesn't say anything like that.

eliakon wrote:This has the advantages of not needing to rewrite the history' invent a totally new unmentioned secret history for one of the gods/goddesses; doesn't invalidate the previous books; and provides a story hook if I want to explore his back story (one that doesn't end in 'and then you find out the darkest most hidden secret of a god and you all die')

The strange thing is... it might not be that deep or dark. Od/Locknar have both 'put children into odd beasts', neither deny paternity. If we were looking at similarities to Norse, Loki's the father of the Fenrir (ends in R) wolf, Wolvenar (ends in R) is a wolf...

Some claim he might have something do with the Fenry wolves (Dyval) or Alu (Hades). Rhada is the ruler of the Fenry...

What if, when Loknar was visiting his daughter Hel in Dyval, he hooked up with Rhada or something? He might have turned his Primal Manifestation into a wolf and pretended to be one of her Fenry. We know Rhada is a bit of a furfan so who knows what she got up to before Abdul-Ra showed up. Maybe getting her heart broken by a canine-shaped god is what led her preferences to switch toward feline?

I was saying that the idea that Epim was the mother would be a pretty deep secret, Heim is a little (but not much) more open to having had a kid on the sly.
As for not being related....the D&G book doesn't say that he is related to any of them. It says that he was brought by the wolves and that none of the gods know the truth of his origins. Thus claiming that he IS related would be a (rather large) change, unless we are going with the idea that the mother of the god had a baby, and has no way of knowing that her own child showed up (which with gods I find to be.....unlikely if not actively impossible with out willful actions to never know their child)
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Prysus »

Tor wrote:Which theories contradict D+G? Mine doesn't.

Greetings and Salutations. Then I think you either don't know your own pet theory, or what the book says. Let's start with your theory.

Tor wrote:Pet theory:

Loknar was messing around being a female wolf and got knocked up, just like with Od's horse.

Wolvenar is the result of that, but this time, he managed to keep his shame secret, and will not tell the others.

Wolvenar began as a demigod, which was when he did all his rune-swording adventures and stuff, and eventually gained worshippers until people finally acknowledged he was a god as he became one.

And now let's give a reminder of what the book says.

...with a huge black cub ... and laid the pup at at her feet.
[snip]
In ten summers it stopped growing ... [snip] By this point it was obvious that Wolvenar was a god.

Wolvenar is an oddity of oddities, a freshly created god. It is theorized the rise of the Wolfen Empire ... may have been enough to bring a wolf god into being.
[snip]
Meanwhile, the young god is trying to find out as much as he can about who he is and what he can do.

So the book tells us that Wolvenar grew from a pup to a god (NOT a demi-god, as in your theory, so already a contradiction) in 10 years.

Then there's the theory that the Wolfen Empire brought him into being. While this is not confirmed, it is neither denied or stated as impossible. If he's been running around for 10,000+ years (as in your theory), the Wolfen Empire couldn't have possibly brought him into being. If the Wolfen Empire creating him is to remain a theory, and the truth an "enigma," then he can't have existed before then (there are potential ways to sort this out, but your current theory has none, so it's just a contradiction).

Also, while I may be missing it, in Dragons & Gods I don't see evidence of gods being able to change gender so a male god giving birth (that's something we see in real world mythology, but I don't see evidence in the mythology of Dragons & Gods). What the book tells us regarding Od and Locknar is that they have "put children into odd beasts before." That states being the father, NOT the mother (as in your theory, which again contradicts the book's theory). Note: If there's evidence of male gods able to turn into females to give birth in Dragons & Gods, please provide the god and page number where this is proven. Of course, as written with neither Od nor Locknar denying or taking responsibility, it reads much more like they genuinely have no clue. "Did I do that one? I can't remember anymore. Did you?" "Um ... I don't think so but ... maybe?" "So ... um ... the Wolfen Empire just formed. Maybe that brought him into existence?" "Is that even possible?" "Well I'm not taking responsibility. Epim's already mad enough." "So the Wolfen Empire then. Yeah, good theory."

For note, I have no real problems with contradictions to the book for a good story (unless I have to write material for that contradiction), but don't deny they're contradictions. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Prysus wrote:3: Perhaps Wolvenar (in some form) did exist back then. Lictalon (an Elf) lived during the Age of Chaos, but fairly sure there's still references to him surviving long after. [/justify]


After the War with the old ones, it's known he spent a few years stomping around the Yin-Sloth Jungles to elimnate the last vestiges of worship of the old ones, where he found and Adopted Tolmet as his daughter when the goddess was a child. After that, it's known he then took his army to Hades and conquered it, becoming the ruler of demons while still a mortal elf (Hey, his army stood up to an old one in battle--hades was probablly a lot easier!)

The books are Artfully silent about what he did while he ruled demonkind, although the fact that A: his daughter is a diabolic goddess of death who enjoys human sacrafise, and B: he conquered hades, not to destroy demons, but to rule them, it can be probablly safely assumed that the great Hero lictalon was a hero in the "The enemy of my greater enemy is my friend" way and probablly a villian in his own right. That, or his attainment of such unparreleled arcane mastery, to put to sleep the old ones and where gods of magic and knowlege like Thoth and Kim-Nark-Mar sought out HIS advice for counsel, may have taken the once-good elf and turned him into a megalomaniac, considering himself equal to the gods and beyond morality of mortals.

Regardless, it's clear at some point Modeus overthrew him and chased Tolmet out of hell, who escaped with only a single legion of demons that remained loyal to her, while the DB book 10: Hades has a bit where it makes it clear that Modeus still has Lictalon locked in a tower in his castle. He isn't named explictly, but he is an ancient elf, with chains that bind and prevent any use of magic by him where he occasionally trots him out to torment and humilite pubically, while the elf will babble madly about the dangers of the Old Ones Awakening soon if something isn't done, as well as occasionally ramble about super-advanced arcane theory that baffles most but works out as correct if followed up on. It's unclear if there is real danger of the old ones awakening soon, or if eons of torture at the hands of Modeus have driven him simply mad.

I'm curious what would happen if someone managed to get the magic-binding chains off :D
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Tor »

Gotta wonder how swell a guy is when he makes that 'Crimson Wall' spell. Doesn't seem like much of a good guy spell.

eliakon wrote:the idea that Epim was the mother would be a pretty deep secret

Puts a new twist on why the female wolf would bring Wolvenar to Epim.

eliakon wrote:Heim is a little (but not much) more open to having had a kid on the sly.

She is? I always pegged her as some kind of chaste virgin saving herself for Hoknar.

eliakon wrote:It says that he was brought by the wolves and that none of the gods know the truth of his origins.

Where's it mention nobody knows the truth? I am reading that there is discussion/speculation among the gods and that Od/Locknar neither affirm or deny possible paternity.

Prysus wrote:the book tells us that Wolvenar grew from a pup to a god (NOT a demi-god, as in your theory, so already a contradiction) in 10 years.

10 years in Odguard. Which is how many years on the Palladium World? Until we know how long an Odguard year is (how much time passes in the Palladium World during one) we can't say what that represents in standard time.

Prysus wrote:there's the theory that the Wolfen Empire brought him into being. While this is not confirmed, it is neither denied or stated as impossible.

Did he wield a sword before the Wolfen Empire began?

Prysus wrote:If the Wolfen Empire creating him is to remain a theory, and the truth an "enigma," then he can't have existed before then

I don't agree, even if our knowledge shows something is wrong, it can remain an enigma to characters in the universe who lack our OOG knowledge.

Prysus wrote:in Dragons & Gods I don't see evidence of gods being able to change gender so a male god giving birth (that's something we see in real world mythology, but I don't see evidence in the mythology of Dragons & Gods).

Page 88 "Profound Fertility" talks about a god changing a male to a female to impregnate 'her', but then also goes on to talk about a female god talking about babies being alarming. As a continuation of the previous thought, it's imlpying the goddess would transform into a male to impregnate a male she had transformed into a female.

Alter Primal Manifestation should be up to the job. It mentions you can change a mass dripping tentacles into an elven goddess. More than appearance/shape it also says that if new forms have natural abilities based on physical structure that they automatically get the natural ability. So if a male god became a goddess with the physical structure of a womb, they should get the natural ability to raise a kid.

This might seem like a hassle to a god, but they may be a lot less impeded by pregnancy than mortals are. Think how Athena was born from Zeus in mythology. They may be able to hide it entirely, and find it a more reliable way of assuring their progeny survives, compared to relying on a non-god to protect it.

Prysus wrote:What the book tells us regarding Od and Locknar is that they have "put children into odd beasts before." That states being the father, NOT the mother (as in your theory, which again contradicts the book's theory).

Someone who has put children into odd beasts might want a change of pace and let odd beasts put children into them. I see this as a lot more likely with Loknar, it's not something I can see Od doing. Page 169 mentions Hel being fooled thinking Locknar was pretending to be a Na'Run, so it's probably not the first time that Loknar has experimented with a gender-swap. He only has to pay Severe instead of Consumed so he is freer to mess with his manifestation. Or he could just use his "metamorphosis: animal" indefinitely.

Prysus wrote:Note: If there's evidence of male gods able to turn into females to give birth in Dragons & Gods, please provide the god and page number where this is proven.

Profound Fertility on page 88 as previously mentioned, says 'just about any other creature imaginable' can have kids with a god. Not "any other creature of the opposite sex".

If the goddess in this example planned to carry a child herself, why should someone be fairly alarmed by her asking if she'd make a wonderful baby with a character? It's implying she might want to become a male to impregnate the character, which is possible via Alter Primal Manifestation.

If a goddess can turn male and gain the ability to impregnate, there's no reason a male god can't turn female and gain the ability to be impregnated.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by The Dark Elf »

When talking about Gods in a world where magic exists - never say never!

Don't forget that the "legends", "texts", "chronicles" and "myths" could all be way off the truth. Nice to speculate though.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by eliakon »

The Dark Elf wrote:When talking about Gods in a world where magic exists - never say never!

DOtn forget that the "legends", "texts", "chronicles" and "myths" could all be way of the truth. Nice to speculate though.

Exactly. This is why it is important to separate things that are in game sources of information (myths, legends, books, etc) which can be unreliable from out of game information (game book pronouncements) which are, by default, always true. Thus if we see something that says "The belief is that X is such and so" then X may, or may not be such and so.....but if the book simply says X is such and so with no caveat, then X is indeed such and so. Because the book says they are.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I don't know if I agree, Eli. For one thing, Palladium has seldom had that kind of consistency. For another, the inconsistency means that each group can easily adjust things to their needs.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by eliakon »

Mark Hall wrote:I don't know if I agree, Eli. For one thing, Palladium has seldom had that kind of consistency. For another, the inconsistency means that each group can easily adjust things to their needs.

But with out that separation then I as a GM for instance do not know what is intended to be canon (and thus will be the default assumptions of future books) and what is not.
The rumor tables are the best examples of this. Looking at the Library of Bletherad we see a ton of rumors about spiffy books.....but they don't officially exist. I don't have to change the world to remove them.....
But if I want to remove the (to me, highly silly Chantico cult) then I am changing canon because it is actually said to exist..

I want my books to tell me what is actually there not just a bunch of myths and legends about how it might be....

This is ESPECIALLY important for things like discussions here. If we don't have a separation between what is actually fact and what is mere opinion then any discussion will have to be simply one of "Well my house rules say that this is the way that things work" instead of being able to say "Well Book X says that Y works Z way"
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Canon exists only insofar as its used, really. If the Chantico cult is never mentioned in game, never comes up, and never does anything in your game, do they exist in your game?

Really, Kevin doesn't even use the rules as written. I see little reason to get bent out of shape about the game world as written, because interacting with it is pretty clear he doesn't care.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by eliakon »

Mark Hall wrote:Canon exists only insofar as its used, really. If the Chantico cult is never mentioned in game, never comes up, and never does anything in your game, do they exist in your game?

Really, Kevin doesn't even use the rules as written. I see little reason to get bent out of shape about the game world as written, because interacting with it is pretty clear he doesn't care.

Because the Chantico cult is now officially, canonically the cause of the destruction of the prime library. Sure I can change stuff all I want.....But from now on any future books will have now been boxed in by this bit of canon.
Or put more plainly. Canon exists no mater what. In fact it is the only thing that actually DOES exist. I can make up and change anything I want sure.....but the official world only exists one way.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Whiskeyjack »

eliakon wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:Canon exists only insofar as its used, really. If the Chantico cult is never mentioned in game, never comes up, and never does anything in your game, do they exist in your game?

Really, Kevin doesn't even use the rules as written. I see little reason to get bent out of shape about the game world as written, because interacting with it is pretty clear he doesn't care.

Because the Chantico cult is now officially, canonically the cause of the destruction of the prime library. Sure I can change stuff all I want.....But from now on any future books will have now been boxed in by this bit of canon.
Or put more plainly. Canon exists no mater what. In fact it is the only thing that actually DOES exist. I can make up and change anything I want sure.....but the official world only exists one way.


But none of that matters in YOUR world. That's kind of the whole point of roleplaying, use your imagination to make the world you want to play in. The route you're going, you can't use your own player characters either, because they're not cannon.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by kiralon »

I think Kevin's only unchangeable rule is have fun.
But arguing about Canon is fun too.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by eliakon »

Whiskeyjack wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:Canon exists only insofar as its used, really. If the Chantico cult is never mentioned in game, never comes up, and never does anything in your game, do they exist in your game?

Really, Kevin doesn't even use the rules as written. I see little reason to get bent out of shape about the game world as written, because interacting with it is pretty clear he doesn't care.

Because the Chantico cult is now officially, canonically the cause of the destruction of the prime library. Sure I can change stuff all I want.....But from now on any future books will have now been boxed in by this bit of canon.
Or put more plainly. Canon exists no mater what. In fact it is the only thing that actually DOES exist. I can make up and change anything I want sure.....but the official world only exists one way.


But none of that matters in YOUR world. That's kind of the whole point of roleplaying, use your imagination to make the world you want to play in. The route you're going, you can't use your own player characters either, because they're not cannon.

That isn't what I am saying.
What I am saying is that the published material makes up the canon. Thus when writers write material they have an obligation to make sure that the new material they are adding to the canon is 1) consistent with the old canon and 2) plausibly consistent with the world.

That was how this whole thread got started. Sure I can just ignore the contradictions in the Biazantinum book and say "Well I don't want to bother figuring out how this was supposed to work so I will just ignore it and house rule everything." But I instead wanted to try and figure out how it was supposed to work. Under what interpretations and new canon it could be made to be consistent with the books already written.

This is especially important if Palladium (which relies on freelancers for much of its work) is to continue. If the attitude becomes "don't worry about continuity or canon and just write what ever" then its no longer a setting but just a bunch of loosely connected source books that may or may not be useable with each other. if Palladium wants to go that direction that's fine.....but I don't think that they do.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Ironpig II »

Is there a good way to get back at a cheating spouse?
Is there a good way to get over a lost love?

Epim is the mom.

Lashgan is the dad.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by SittingBull »

kiralon wrote:I think Kevin's only unchangeable rule is have fun.
But arguing about Canon is fun too.


To a degree.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by kiralon »

SittingBull wrote:
kiralon wrote:I think Kevin's only unchangeable rule is have fun.
But arguing about Canon is fun too.


To a degree.

As long as its not insulting it fun, I have had a few of my ideas changed, and stole quite a lot of ideas brought about from debates (arguments) here. I'd like to think im a better DM from it.

also
getting scared, sad or worried for your character is fine too, its all part of the fun grab bag.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by eliakon »

Ironpig II wrote:Is there a good way to get back at a cheating spouse?
Is there a good way to get over a lost love?

Epim is the mom.

Lashgan is the dad.

Wait what? Huh?
I am confused. Or is this just how you do it in your game?
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Ironpig II »

my own...sorry for the confusion. just thought i'd add to the mystery/possibilities...
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Soldier of Od »

Ironpig II wrote:Is there a good way to get back at a cheating spouse?
Is there a good way to get over a lost love?

Epim is the mom.

Lashgan is the dad.

Good idea! I like it!
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Ironpig II »

Yes, in my games Lashgan is the father/Epim is the mother of Wolvenar. Its worked out so far. fun, too imo. more: Northern Pantheon is breaking up, unkown/MIA Wild Lords returning...shift in Northern worshippers (and others), upsetting divine balances around the world...

Fun stuff.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Tor »

Where is Lashgan talked about?

As for explaining why the female wolf brought Wolvenar to Epim, perhaps Epim used her eggs but used the she-wolf as a surrogate mother so that her pregnancy would not alarm Od?
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Ironpig II »

Tor wrote:Where is Lashgan talked about?

As for explaining why the female wolf brought Wolvenar to Epim, perhaps Epim used her eggs but used the she-wolf as a surrogate mother so that her pregnancy would not alarm Od?


Lashgan, Lord of Midnight. a Wild Lord of the Lost Pantheon. Huge Wolf.
Northern Hinterlands, Fantasy, Book 13, p128.

...our interpretation...the wolves that brought Wolvenar to Epim were of Lashgan's Wild Pack. All Known Wild Lords (some newly awakened) agreed that Wolvenar would benefit more as a Northern God, but it has caused some problems. Wild Lords are getting stronger and the Northern Gods' Na 'runs curses are coming true.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Tor »

I gotta stop assuming all of PF2's deities are in D+G. An external deity glossary would be good. *scribbles note under Wolvenar to consult Hinterlands*
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:I gotta stop assuming all of PF2's deities are in D+G. An external deity glossary would be good. *scribbles note under Wolvenar to consult Hinterlands*

It only had all the gods that had been printed up until that point.
When they publish new gods they are of course not going to be in a previous book (Hinterlands and Bizantium both have new gods in them)
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Tor wrote:I gotta stop assuming all of PF2's deities are in D+G. An external deity glossary would be good. *scribbles note under Wolvenar to consult Hinterlands*


Northern Hinterlands dosn't actually say Wolvenar is the child of Lashgan, that was just his personal plotline for one game that has no basis in cannon.
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by Tor »

Kind of want a "more dragons and more gods" (MDAMG) book to cover all the unstatted gods mentioned by name in both D+G and Pantheons and if they weren't statted in Bizantium/Hinterlands
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Re: Wolvenar

Unread post by sHaka »

Just make the godly origin contradictions/differing interpretions part of your game, rather than a meta issue. Think how many deaths/schisms/crusades/jihads there have been IRL over different takes on mythology.
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