Sea of Dispair Ley Line Network?

[eliakon]

And then there is the Sea of Dispair (page 67)
Which has a network of ley lines and nexi on the sea floor. Ley lines and Nexi that are visible. They are infact an important navigational aid.

First off Ley lines are invisible on Palladium (they are only visible in Rifts)
Second the sea is at least three miles deep here (You can tap a nexus from two miles away, you must swim down a mile to tap these lines, ergo they must be three miles down)
This means that to be visible from the surface.....we are talking "shines with the light of a thousand suns" (they are bright enough to be visible from a depth normally reserved for 'the abyssal deeps' on earth. Sunlight barely gets past 200' of water and yet this is going through ~16 THOUSAND feet nearly 80 TIMES the amount of water)

Ley line brightness is a factor of the amount of energy in them.....

So what the heck is down there? When the prisons of gods (3 in canon), and old ones (2 in canon), and a super nexus (1 in canon), are not magical enough to make their lines glow.....

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations. Sea of Despair, that's how it's spelled. Also, this thread doesn't mention what book you're referring to. I guessed, and then noticed the other thread where you rant about the book. For those who don't know, eliakon is referring to Bizantium and the Northern Islands sourcebook.

First, Ley Lines are visible on the Palladium World if you're a Practitioner of Magic. Now I admit that section makes it sound like it's visible to everyone, but doesn't outright say it one way or the other. Most Bizantium ships (to my understanding) have Practitioners of Magic onboard. As such, most ships will be able to use them for navigational aid (unless all your spell casters are killed or stricken blind or something ... then you're SoL).

Second, you're not entirely accurate. Per PF2 main book page 181 (we can gather similar info from RUE, if you prefer), two miles away will boost your magic, but you can't actually tap the P.P.E. To me, tapping it would mean drawing from it's P.P.E. while the boost to spells is more of a charged area, but you're not actually tapping anything (it happens because you're in range, NOT because you're tapping the power of the line). For a Ley Line, you have to be at/on the Ley Line to tap into it. With a Nexus (and only a nexus) you can be a half mile away to tap into it. Using these numbers, the ley line would be only one mile deep.

As for the visibility due to depth issue, since ley lines radiate their energy beyond the actual line itself it stands to reason that the visibility (to Practitioners of Magic) may extend beyond the line itself. Remember, the power extends two miles away from the actual line (even if you can't tap it from that far away, it may still extend enough power to be visible).

As for the prison of gods and Old Ones (though off the top of my head I'm not sure which ones this references for either), I actually figure that the prison would be fueled by the Ley Line. With the Old Ones, I'd figure the slumbering ones would be instinctively tapping into the power (draining it) to feed (and try to wake up). These reasons would result in the ley line would be weaker, not stronger. But I would need specific references if you want me to address them beyond a claim that they're there and they should work different.

Now, setting all that aside, I suspect this section was more taken from Rifts Underseas (page 16) which discusses Underwater Ley Lines. The visibility at night seems the same, as well as the navigational aspect for sailors. This page also mentions how the ley lines cannot typically be tapped unless you go underwater. Of course, this page also mentions how sea ley lines are MORE powerful than land ley lines, and how they're affected by the moon and the sun far more as well. So that means at night, these already more powerful ley lines would probably get even stronger. I still wouldn't buy that these would be visible to normal sailors though.

And using the logic from Underseas (which is only stated in this book that I'm aware of, and no other Rifts books and no PF books at all), sea ley lines actually extend 1 to 1.5 miles high, so the Sea of Despair floor would have to be 2 to 2.5 miles deep. I'm also not sure how you could keep something like visible ley lines secret ... unless no one has ever been there before at night. Yes, Bizantium is the closest so I can understand them discovering this first ... but it's not like they can really keep it a secret if anyone else went there ... like ever. It would be like saying the Great Wall of China was a secret and only the government that built it knew about it. That would only make sense if it was invisible to everyone else or no one else had been there ... like ever. That would be my bigger issue with it.

That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Reagren Wright]

The Sea of Despair is indeed a mysterious place with 30 underwater ley lines and 9 nexus points. This of course is not
known to surface dwellers because the folks of Palladium Fantasy are unable to explore the depths of the Sea of
Despair, not that anyone would be that crazy in the first place. Prysus is correct lots of this source material info was
indeed taken from Rifts Underseas. While we do not know the depths of the Sea of Despair, the underwater ley lines
are 1 to 1.5 miles high from the ocean floor. But no practitioner can tap the lines unless he was 1 mile down beneath
the surface. So this should provide a rough estimate as the depth of the Sea of Despair. The visibility of the ley lines
only occurs at night. Remember they are lighting up 1-1.5 miles in height, couple of miles wide, and tens or hundreds
of miles long. And yes there are numerous references claiming the ley line levels of Palladium Fantasy are far weaker
than those of Rifts Earth. But let us also remember this is the Sea of Despair, which borders next to the Land of the
Damned, rumored to be home/prison to beings of tremendous powers. In short, "something" might be making these
particular ley lines far stronger than any others, then again where else in Palladium Fantasy would we even discuss
such unusual underwater ley lines? Think the Sea of Despair as a region that is one giant Sea Triangle. One should
also consider this as updated info for Adventures of the High Sea, allowing both books to be used in unison.

[eliakon]

The Sea of Despair is indeed a mysterious place with 30 underwater ley lines and 9 nexus points. This of course is not
known to surface dwellers because the folks of Palladium Fantasy are unable to explore the depths of the Sea of
Despair, not that anyone would be that crazy in the first place. Prysus is correct lots of this source material info was
indeed taken from Rifts Underseas. While we do not know the depths of the Sea of Despair, the underwater ley lines
are 1 to 1.5 miles high from the ocean floor. But no practitioner can tap the lines unless he was 1 mile down beneath
the surface. So this should provide a rough estimate as the depth of the Sea of Despair. The visibility of the ley lines
only occurs at night. Remember they are lighting up 1-1.5 miles in height, couple of miles wide, and tens or hundreds
of miles long. And yes there are numerous references claiming the ley line levels of Palladium Fantasy are far weaker
than those of Rifts Earth. But let us also remember this is the Sea of Despair, which borders next to the Land of the
Damned, rumored to be home/prison to beings of tremendous powers. In short, "something" might be making these
particular ley lines far stronger than any others, then again where else in Palladium Fantasy would we even discuss
such unusual underwater ley lines? Think the Sea of Despair as a region that is one giant Sea Triangle. One should
also consider this as updated info for Adventures of the High Sea, allowing both books to be used in unison.

Depth of 2-4 miles is consistant with normal real world ocean depths, so that's not a huge issue.
But the fact that they are not just visible, but visible through miles of water? That is a huge issue.
So we are going with "Yes, we are ret-coning these ley lines to be visible" and "They shine bright enough to be seen through miles of water"
That is fine...just as long as people understand that it IS a retcon.

The second issue with this is that Library of Bletherad mentions that ley lines drift and move on the Palladium world (thus making it impossible to map ley lines)...So how often are these lines charted? (if they are moving much they shouldn't be reliable navigation tools, if they don't move then they are again unusual lines)

The next thing that makes this make little sense is that why has no one explored this?
There are at least 3 aquatic races (Mermaids, Selkies, and Zaranceti) that live in this sea. Not to mention the presence of both water warlocks and now seachanters and necromancers and summoners....

It should be easy to do explorations of this if someone wanted to, and considering the extent of the explorations of places such as the
Great Northern Mountains (which have had people explore all but two locations, one of which was stopped by the combined dragon race, and one because everyone disappears)

[Jerell]

As for the visibility due to depth issue, since ley lines radiate their energy beyond the actual line itself it stands to reason that the visibility (to Practitioners of Magic) may extend beyond the line itself. Remember, the power extends two miles away from the actual line (even if you can't tap it from that far away, it may still extend enough power to be visible).

Farewell and safe journeys for now.

That makes sense. I could see that....

[Reagren Wright]

The Sea of Despair is indeed a mysterious place with 30 underwater ley lines and 9 nexus points. This of course is not
known to surface dwellers because the folks of Palladium Fantasy are unable to explore the depths of the Sea of
Despair, not that anyone would be that crazy in the first place. Prysus is correct lots of this source material info was
indeed taken from Rifts Underseas. While we do not know the depths of the Sea of Despair, the underwater ley lines
are 1 to 1.5 miles high from the ocean floor. But no practitioner can tap the lines unless he was 1 mile down beneath
the surface. So this should provide a rough estimate as the depth of the Sea of Despair. The visibility of the ley lines
only occurs at night. Remember they are lighting up 1-1.5 miles in height, couple of miles wide, and tens or hundreds
of miles long. And yes there are numerous references claiming the ley line levels of Palladium Fantasy are far weaker
than those of Rifts Earth. But let us also remember this is the Sea of Despair, which borders next to the Land of the
Damned, rumored to be home/prison to beings of tremendous powers. In short, "something" might be making these
particular ley lines far stronger than any others, then again where else in Palladium Fantasy would we even discuss
such unusual underwater ley lines? Think the Sea of Despair as a region that is one giant Sea Triangle. One should
also consider this as updated info for Adventures of the High Sea, allowing both books to be used in unison.

Depth of 2-4 miles is consistant with normal real world ocean depths, so that's not a huge issue.
But the fact that they are not just visible, but visible through miles of water? That is a huge issue.
So we are going with "Yes, we are ret-coning these ley lines to be visible" and "They shine bright enough to be seen through miles of water"
That is fine...just as long as people understand that it IS a retcon.

The second issue with this is that Library of Bletherad mentions that ley lines drift and move on the Palladium world (thus making it impossible to map ley lines)...So how often are these lines charted? (if they are moving much they shouldn't be reliable navigation tools, if they don't move then they are again unusual lines)

The next thing that makes this make little sense is that why has no one explored this?
There are at least 3 aquatic races (Mermaids, Selkies, and Zaranceti) that live in this sea. Not to mention the presence of both water warlocks and now seachanters and necromancers and summoners....

It should be easy to do explorations of this if someone wanted to, and considering the extent of the explorations of places such as the
Great Northern Mountains (which have had people explore all but two locations, one of which was stopped by the combined dragon race, and one because everyone disappears)

Well how often do Mermaids, Selkies, and the Zaranceti provide navigational aide, especially since one of those
races wants to whip out any human that they come across. Selkies great magical creatures, who are unable to
access any of the magic while in seal-form, so the Sea of Despair is not entirely safe for them. And does it really
bother some people that Rifts material ended up in Palladium Fantasy to explain one of the Bizantium secrets for
navigating the region. And yes ley line do apparently fade in and out in Fantasy to possible avoid have supernatural
menaces and wizards set up shop there, but there are also some lines that are indeed FIXED. And what crazy fool
is scuba diving in the Sea of Despair filled with sea monsters, mutant creatures, dimensional influxes, etc. This is
Palladium Fantasy not Rifts where people have submarines and power armor. Even if you are a water warlock and
waterchanter, who and what is going to convince you to swim one mile down into the Sea of Despair and
explore the source of the blue light?

[eliakon]

The Sea of Despair is indeed a mysterious place with 30 underwater ley lines and 9 nexus points. This of course is not
known to surface dwellers because the folks of Palladium Fantasy are unable to explore the depths of the Sea of
Despair, not that anyone would be that crazy in the first place. Prysus is correct lots of this source material info was
indeed taken from Rifts Underseas. While we do not know the depths of the Sea of Despair, the underwater ley lines
are 1 to 1.5 miles high from the ocean floor. But no practitioner can tap the lines unless he was 1 mile down beneath
the surface. So this should provide a rough estimate as the depth of the Sea of Despair. The visibility of the ley lines
only occurs at night. Remember they are lighting up 1-1.5 miles in height, couple of miles wide, and tens or hundreds
of miles long. And yes there are numerous references claiming the ley line levels of Palladium Fantasy are far weaker
than those of Rifts Earth. But let us also remember this is the Sea of Despair, which borders next to the Land of the
Damned, rumored to be home/prison to beings of tremendous powers. In short, "something" might be making these
particular ley lines far stronger than any others, then again where else in Palladium Fantasy would we even discuss
such unusual underwater ley lines? Think the Sea of Despair as a region that is one giant Sea Triangle. One should
also consider this as updated info for Adventures of the High Sea, allowing both books to be used in unison.

Depth of 2-4 miles is consistant with normal real world ocean depths, so that's not a huge issue.
But the fact that they are not just visible, but visible through miles of water? That is a huge issue.
So we are going with "Yes, we are ret-coning these ley lines to be visible" and "They shine bright enough to be seen through miles of water"
That is fine...just as long as people understand that it IS a retcon.

The second issue with this is that Library of Bletherad mentions that ley lines drift and move on the Palladium world (thus making it impossible to map ley lines)...So how often are these lines charted? (if they are moving much they shouldn't be reliable navigation tools, if they don't move then they are again unusual lines)

The next thing that makes this make little sense is that why has no one explored this?
There are at least 3 aquatic races (Mermaids, Selkies, and Zaranceti) that live in this sea. Not to mention the presence of both water warlocks and now seachanters and necromancers and summoners....

It should be easy to do explorations of this if someone wanted to, and considering the extent of the explorations of places such as the
Great Northern Mountains (which have had people explore all but two locations, one of which was stopped by the combined dragon race, and one because everyone disappears)

Well how often do Mermaids, Selkies, and the Zaranceti provide navigational aide, especially since one of those
races wants to whip out any human that they come across. Selkies great magical creatures, who are unable to
access any of the magic while in seal-form, so the Sea of Despair is not entirely safe for them. And does it really
bother some people that Rifts material ended up in Palladium Fantasy to explain one of the Bizantium secrets for
navigating the region. And yes ley line do apparently fade in and out in Fantasy to possible avoid have supernatural
menaces and wizards set up shop there, but there are also some lines that are indeed FIXED. And what crazy fool
is scuba diving in the Sea of Despair filled with sea monsters, mutant creatures, dimensional influxes, etc. This is
Palladium Fantasy not Rifts where people have submarines and power armor. Even if you are a water warlock and
waterchanter, who and what is going to convince you to swim one mile down into the Sea of Despair and
explore the source of the blue light?

Yes it bugs me that rifts material was brought in where that material conflicts with the rest of the game.
It bugs me that one set of ley lines is glowing blue....but not any others on the planet.
Especially since Priests, Warlocks, and Waterchanters cant see ley lines.....so unless those Bizantinum ships are crewed by wizards (which I would expect to be specifically mentioned considering the lengths gone to point out how loathed wizards are) then they have to be visible to mundanes.
Which then gets the silly "but no one else has ever noticed these ley lines...

[Reagren Wright]

Unless such ships are only Bizantium ships because no else but Bizantians are crazy enough to sail into the Sea of
Despair on a regular basis.

As for the visibility issue, this is a fact taken from Rift Ultimate Edition:

"Normally, ley lines are not visible, but the energy is so great on Rifts Earth that the lines glow day and night. During
the day, the light blue glow of the ley lines is barely noticeable. Travelers from a distance might see the blue haze of
a line in the distance, especially on an overcast day, but they are nearly invisible on a sunny day or when actually
on the line in the daylight. A night, the ley lines shine like a lit up highway and can be seen for miles."

So let's say the underwater ley lines in the Sea of Despair are not only unnatural but very powerful (Rifts
Earth level). In no way shape and form should they be compared to the ley lines found anywhere else on Palladium
Fantasy. The reason may never be known or maybe it will be revealed . Remember its the Sea of Despair, a
unique place in the Palladium Megaverse .

[eliakon]

Unless such ships are only Bizantium ships because no else but Bizantians are crazy enough to sail into the Sea of
Despair on a regular basis.

As for the visibility issue, this is a fact taken from Rift Ultimate Edition:

"Normally, ley lines are not visible, but the energy is so great on Rifts Earth that the lines glow day and night. During
the day, the light blue glow of the ley lines is barely noticeable. Travelers from a distance might see the blue haze of
a line in the distance, especially on an overcast day, but they are nearly invisible on a sunny day or when actually
on the line in the daylight. A night, the ley lines shine like a lit up highway and can be seen for miles."

So let's say the underwater ley lines in the Sea of Despair are not only unnatural but very powerful (Rifts
Earth level). In no way shape and form should they be compared to the ley lines found anywhere else on Palladium
Fantasy. The reason may never be known or maybe it will be revealed . Remember its the Sea of Despair, a
unique place in the Palladium Megaverse .

So we are going with the "yes they are Rifts level" that fine.....but it would be nice if this is actually thought out and mentioned in the book. Especially if we are to believe that for some reason they are the strongest ley line manifestation on the planet in the last 50,000 years and even stronger than the super-nexi. And maybe a reason that no one has done any exploration of it (Remember people there are people routinely probing the Land of the Damned....this is way less of a challenge and far greater obvious reward)
And the Sea of Despair being a unique place of magic and wonder in the Palladium Megaverse would need to be spelled out....as it is its just a really nasty sea with some ley lines and a bunch of monsters.....no different than many other oceans.

[Prysus]

The second issue with this is that Library of Bletherad mentions that ley lines drift and move on the Palladium world (thus making it impossible to map ley lines)...So how often are these lines charted? (if they are moving much they shouldn't be reliable navigation tools, if they don't move then they are again unusual lines)

Greetings and Salutations. This isn't entirely accurate. Library of Bletherad (page 133) says: "According to certain scholars ..." (which means SOME scholars say it, but not all of them do, and isn't verified from what I've seen) and: "many ley lines" (not ALL ley lines). The same section then goes on to tell that some of the lines mapped during the Time of a Thousand Magicks are still accurate today. Unless you're referring to a different section of Library of Bletherad?

The next thing that makes this make little sense is that why has no one explored this?
There are at least 3 aquatic races (Mermaids, Selkies, and Zaranceti) that live in this sea. Not to mention the presence of both water warlocks and now seachanters and necromancers and summoners....

It should be easy to do explorations of this if someone wanted to, and considering the extent of the explorations of places such as the
Great Northern Mountains (which have had people explore all but two locations, one of which was stopped by the combined dragon race, and one because everyone disappears)

Depends on what you want to explore. But if you're talking about swimming down to the ley lines ... the BEST magic available (an Invocation) in the main book (possible one of the other sourcebooks have a better spell) lets someone dive 6,000 feet (just over a mile). The best Water Elemental spell allows someone to dive "up to one mile." That means you can't go deeper, and even that deep is probably pushing it. So if you really push your luck as a Warlock, you might be able to swim deep enough to tap the ley line. Then there's all the monsters.

Especially since Priests, Warlocks, and Waterchanters cant see ley lines...

Actually, Warlocks should be able to see them. Priests can't. Waterchanters ... depends if we classify them as Clergy, Naval, or Practitioner of Magic. But per the Wizard ability, it states that Practitioners of Magic CAN see them ... and that means yes to Warlocks can see them (even though they don't have a special ability listed).

then they have to be visible to mundanes.
Which then gets the silly "but no one else has ever noticed these ley lines...

By the way it's written, I'd agree that's the intent. I'll also add that's not a change I'd particularly care for, but probably something I wouldn't have noticed if it wasn't pointed out to me (I just wouldn't have thought about it).

So let's say the underwater ley lines in the Sea of Despair are not only unnatural but very powerful (Rifts
Earth level). In no way shape and form should they be compared to the ley lines found anywhere else on Palladium
Fantasy. The reason may never be known or maybe it will be revealed . Remember its the Sea of Despair, a
unique place in the Palladium Megaverse .

Well, except the Palladium main book says the ley lines of the Palladium World ... and the Sea of Despair is still part of the world. This would contradict the main book, but I honestly don't mind an exception being made. "Oh, this one place is different." But if it's not stated as such (and it's not written in that way), it looks more like an oversight or mistake.

My honest impression from reading it? Someone took it from Rifts Underseas (and as much has been admitted in this thread), and didn't take into consideration the difference in ley line visibility. *Shrugs.* Sure, it would be nice if every piece of the book had perfect editing, but not something I'm going to freak out on either. I'm quite content to reason this out as we've been. Though I'll agree with eliakon (and I said this earlier as well), if it is visible to mundanes, there's no reason why non-Bizantium mundanes can't see it as well. This shouldn't be a secret ... unless Bizantium's have some special attunement to the area or something (which could be interesting, but again not stated that I see).

My hat still goes off to Reagren Wright for getting his work published and reviving the PF line. And if I ever get something published, I hope people read it with as much attention for an equally thorough critique. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Reagren Wright]

Unless such ships are only Bizantium ships because no else but Bizantians are crazy enough to sail into the Sea of
Despair on a regular basis.

As for the visibility issue, this is a fact taken from Rift Ultimate Edition:

"Normally, ley lines are not visible, but the energy is so great on Rifts Earth that the lines glow day and night. During
the day, the light blue glow of the ley lines is barely noticeable. Travelers from a distance might see the blue haze of
a line in the distance, especially on an overcast day, but they are nearly invisible on a sunny day or when actually
on the line in the daylight. A night, the ley lines shine like a lit up highway and can be seen for miles."

So let's say the underwater ley lines in the Sea of Despair are not only unnatural but very powerful (Rifts
Earth level). In no way shape and form should they be compared to the ley lines found anywhere else on Palladium
Fantasy. The reason may never be known or maybe it will be revealed . Remember its the Sea of Despair, a
unique place in the Palladium Megaverse .

So we are going with the "yes they are Rifts level" that fine.....but it would be nice if this is actually thought out and mentioned in the book. Especially if we are to believe that for some reason they are the strongest ley line manifestation on the planet in the last 50,000 years and even stronger than the super-nexi. And maybe a reason that no one has done any exploration of it (Remember people there are people routinely probing the Land of the Damned....this is way less of a challenge and far greater obvious reward)
And the Sea of Despair being a unique place of magic and wonder in the Palladium Megaverse would need to be spelled out....as it is its just a really nasty sea with some ley lines and a bunch of monsters.....no different than many other oceans.

That's why we have AoHS. No need to reprint what is already cannon just to have a quick reference.
Although we did do that for Necromancy (I wish they would have used the 2nd printing which include the number of initial
spells).

Finally to put a stamp of any additional comments, the main reason I wrote about the ley lines and nexus in the
first place in Bizantium was an attempt to explain why the Sea of Despair is the Sea of Despair. Everything about it is
exactly the same as a Sea Triangle in Rifts Underseas and Rifts Atlantis, only it's not mentioned as such because
Adventures of High Seas 2nd edition is just a reprint of the 1st edition book which never had P.P.E., ley lines, nexus, etc.
SO if this revelation (which Kevin okayed otherwise he would have edited it out) disrupts the Palladium Fantasy balance
just because their are some "blue lines at night" to navigate by in the Sea of Despair, then don't use them. Use only what
is it says in Adventures of High Seas and leave it at that. At no other point in Palladium Fantasy future do we plan on
altering the laws and rules of ley lines. Trust me Kevin won't do any of that. I thought I could play around with the "official
rules of Runes" so I could present the ancient Eoten with something unique to themselves and it got axes and eliminated
entirely, not trace exists in the book (a far better job editing that out then the actual Eoten/Bizantium history). So not to
worry Palladium Fantasy purists, we will try to keep future "Rifts" info from dribbling and contaminating the fantasy game
line.

And for those who wonder why isn't everyone using the blue lines, because most are too chicken to go into the Sea of
Despair. 1 in 40 crossing in the Strait of Forlorn Hope ends in disaster and that within the Bizantium shipping lanes. Look
at the Sea of Despair Weather table, you roll that when your journey begins, and when the time limit expires you roll
again. Sooner of later you will end up in a storm, fog, or something bad. You also have the Wind Direction table. Then the
Random Encounter table which is every 2D4 hours between encounters. This place is nasty for anyone to be sailing in.
Much less for a Western merchant ship sending Bizantium a ship load full of spices! Which probably doesn't happen all that
often. So yes there are some blue lines that can help you at night if you are familiar with their placement according to the
stars, moon, and other night time navigational aids since your compass will never work (points to the Land of the
Damned) and you might experience a 50 foot rogue wave, a giant whirlpool, or a sea monster at any given moment.

[Prysus]

Greetings and Salutations Reagren Wright. I know, not supposed to address the poster, but I am anyways. I'll say some of your posts here have been urging me to argue with you, and as such I'll take a step back. Instead, I'll say something I just hope you listen to and consider.

First, at the Palladium Open House on the writer's panel, you said you can't be too defensive of your work. I know, it's hard to always do that. I know I'm not always able to do so. I can start getting defensive without even realizing it. So I recommend taking a step back. You need to listen to criticism. If someone is just wrong, point to the book and page number that corrects them. If it's opinion vs. opinion, then consider what they have to say (even if after you've thought it over you disagree). If you have to explain why you did something the way you did, then ask yourself why you didn't explain it in the book. More than likely you didn't realize it would be an issue, none of us are perfect. Nothing we do now can change the book that's already out, but you can look at this and think about how to avoid such conflicts in future projects.

Second, just because Kevin left something in doesn't mean he approved. Kevin is not a perfect editor and cannot catch everything. I can think of a few things that I've heard Kevin ADMIT he missed and snuck their way into books. I'm not saying that this is the case. Kevin may have approved. But his lack of removal should not an automatic thumbs up either.

Third (and final), I'd personally try to avoid throwing around labels. Making comments like "Palladium Fantasy purists" who feel "Rifts" is "contaminating" their "game line" sounds (to me) like you're trying to insult or shame people into agreeing with your view on things. Text can be hard to interpret at times and you and I have had our misunderstandings in the past, so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. Also, just because people take offense to something from Rifts being dropped into another setting, it's not necessarily because we're opposed to the concept. We might just want the effort and time for it to be explained why this is in the other setting (and done so in the book).

In a similar example, think of when Kevin included the Necromancer O.C.C. into the book and why. Because he didn't want people to need multiple books, and that was another PF book. So when taking something from Rifts and dropping it into PF, or HU, or BtS, or any other line (and this works in reverse as well), it needs to be explained as if the reader doesn't have every book, especially not for different game lines. If that material differs from the established game setting (such as visible ley lines), then it should be addressed why it differs. You don't even have to give a specific explanation, merely address that it's unusual. No one knows why. Maybe list a few unconfirmed rumors.

So if you take the time to sit back and try to look at the conversation objectively, and after you do you decide that everyone should accept ley lines glowing in the dark without explanation, and logical that no one else in the world has ever encountered these shining beacons of the night in over 100,000 years, then we can discuss it further. Take my advice for what it is, and coming from a person who knows that I'm less than perfect myself. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Jerell]

Personally (and this is just me), ever since I read Thunder Cloud Galaxy, I'm always considering if high concentrations of magic give off Magical Radiation (M-rads), possibly visible to those who can see ley lines or magical energy. Or at least it seems to me sleeping Old Ones could give off M-rads. M-rads leaking into the ocean, from the sleeping Old Ones, mayhap powering up ley lines beyond normal. Maybe not, but I do consider it. If the magic energy of a ley line does in fact give off some kind of magical radiation, it may not be blocked as easily as light by water. Just a thought on the matter.

Now that I've been told it's like the Sea Triangles, it makes perfect sense to me. I wasn't sure if it was just overflow from the LotD curses or what, but I always wanted the Sea of Despair to be especially dangerous for some kind of reason. Magic plus Sea Serpents, work for me!

If I may, I especially want to say thank you to the author for the insight and further information, and discussion of intention with this part of the book. I find it fascinating.

[Prysus]

If I may, I especially want to say thank you to the author for the insight and further information, and discussion of intention with this part of the book. I find it fascinating.

I whole heartedly agree with this.

[eliakon]

I will agree with that. The insight here has been fascinating.
The added insight makes the situation more understandable, and adds some hooks. I wonder if it might be possible to get it summarized, typed up and put on the Cutting Room Floor as an Outtake?

hmmm, actually an Outtakes section to the forums where "I wanted to put it in, but ran out of space, let me talk about the intent behind this bit' might be pretty cool

[ShadowHawk]

Awesome discussion. We need more of these.