Vampire Wizards and Enchanted Cauldron

[Tor]

The wizard's Enchanted Cauldron always made me think of how nice it might be for vamps since it involves drinking blood and they drink blood anyway.

Where stats for vamps get printed (Rifts Vampire Kingdoms, Nightbane, not sure where in PF I just know Vald Tegor in D+G and the NPCs in Tombs of Gersidi in 1st ed PRPG) the masters/secondaries can't "learn" new magic...

But isn't there ways to acquire magic besides learning?

Learning sounds a heck of a lot like the whole 'I go down to the guild and plunk down my gold and get taught' thing.

Mystic's intuitive discovery doesn't seem like learning. Nor does spells bestowed via a Shifter or Witch pact.

Is the enchanted cauldron the same way? PF2p106 looking for verb "learn" but not noticing it except in "he will learn whether he is successful at gaining more spell magic". But 'gain' is the root verb there. You learn if you gained the magic, you don't learn the magic.

The 'if succesful' mentions sharing memories and then "he will possess some of the spell knowledge".

Sounds a lot like how mystics gained spells, not through study/learning but through it just getting zipped in there.

So it seems like a level 1 wizard turned vampire could mass-cast this spell to gain magic (and delicious insanity) even though they are blocked from learning at guilds.

The spells gained per level of experience are also interesting in this respect.

"The characters has been able to figure out or learn one new spell"

Is this treating "figure out" and "learn" as distinctly different things, or presenting synonyms for the same idea?

[ShadowLogan]

...not sure where in PF I just know ...

Stats are in "Land of the Damned 2" in limited form, but they mention "Western Empire" as being described fully.

Mystic's intuitive discovery doesn't seem like learning. Nor does spells bestowed via a Shifter or Witch pact.

I don't think a Shifter/Witch Pact would work though, since that would involve having more than 1 Pact in place (essentially Master Vampires make a Pact).

I think the Cauldron approach could work, at least temporarily giving them random spell knowledge given they can't retain "new" knowledge/spells.

[Library Ogre]

Where stats for vamps get printed (Rifts Vampire Kingdoms, Nightbane, not sure where in PF I just know Vald Tegor in D+G and the NPCs in Tombs of Gersidi in 1st ed PRPG) the masters/secondaries can't "learn" new magic...

Western Empire has stats for vampires.

But isn't there ways to acquire magic besides learning?

Not many, and a vampire's nature makes some of them unavailable.

Mystic's intuitive discovery doesn't seem like learning. Nor does spells bestowed via a Shifter or Witch pact.

Mystics intuitive discovery is very much learning. You've chosen to define learning in a certain way, but that's not really in line with how the book uses it. Vampires are going to have a hard time with a shifter or a witch pact, seeing as how they're vampires... essentially, they're already a specific kind of witch, powered by a vampire intelligence.

Is the enchanted cauldron the same way? PF2p106 looking for verb "learn" but not noticing it except in "he will learn whether he is successful at gaining more spell magic". But 'gain' is the root verb there. You learn if you gained the magic, you don't learn the magic.

That is highly specious reasoning, based on reading the text incredibly closely, and ignoring the context of the ability. It's only valid if you consider the block on "learning" magic to only apply when someone uses the verb "learn". I mean, by that logic, one can be taught magic... you didn't learn it, you were taught it. You could convert scrolls... you didn't learn it, you figured it out. I didn't "learn" a spell, I taught it to myself.

[Library Ogre]

"I didn't punch him. He ran into the fist I was swinging."

[eliakon]

I am just going to put out there that the word was 'learn' not 'be taught by a specific method'
ANY learning is still learning. And by learning I mean "Cause to gain knowledge that was not possessed previously via some form of experience or insight"

Now if it said "Can no longer get new spells via spell teaching from other people" sure.....otherwise we are just attempting to play semantics games to change the meaning of an intended limitation to bypass it.

[say652]

I have a way.

Magic Power Category: which ever spell class you desire. Personally as of late I Like Techno Wizard.

Make them a Megahero.
Power/Weakness: Undead Vampire: for theme must drink blood.

Though not nearly as strong as a true Vampire in some ways, You are a more powerful in others.
AND have most of the weaknesses A Vampire has and a few they don't.

Plus I just showed you how to make a Vampire Mage that can learn new spells.

[eliakon]

:D

I have a way.

Magic Power Category: which ever spell class you desire. Personally as of late I Like Techno Wizard.

Make them a Megahero.
Power/Weakness: Undead Vampire: for theme must drink blood.

Though not nearly as strong as a true Vampire in some ways, You are a more powerful in others.
AND have most of the weaknesses A Vampire has and a few they don't.

Plus I just showed you how to make a Vampire Mage that can learn new spells.

Well since this is
1) About Palladium Fantasy and not Heroes Unlimited
and
2) About the actual specific vampire there and not about creating a new monster that gets around it....

[say652]

Universal roleplaying megaverse, and Dimensional Travel is commonplace.
I believe the entire system is compatible and designed to played as such.

[eliakon]

Universal roleplaying megaverse, and Dimensional Travel is commonplace.
I believe the entire system is compatible and designed to played as such.

Which is a great stance to take.....
But when the question is ask in the PF forum then its probably looking for an answer that uses the PF rules.

And in any event the question was about 'can VI Vampires get around their limit' not 'how would one make a vampire like thing that doesn't have the limit'

Which means that speculation on about how to use the HU megahero rules to make a new vampire is totally off topic

[URLeader Hobbes]

Vamps are SOL when it comes to learning new magic spells. The nature of being linked to the VI prohibits it.

However that doesn't mean they are not gonna look for additional magic. This can come in the form of magic items, weapons, scrolls, talismans, etc.

Nothing stops a vampire from using items, circles or even having magic wards put into a location. So while traditional spell learning ma be out of the question, vampires can still have avenues of attaining additional mystical power.

Oh and keep in mind wizards turned forget 1/2 their spell knowledge. (Goodbye globe of daylight!) But that doesn't mean a mage turned vampire wouldn't offer up spell knowledge as a reward. After all spell books are still valuable and can be traded for magic items, favors or given as rewards to those willing to deal with them.

Hope this helps.

[Tor]

Mystics intuitive discovery is very much learning. You've chosen to define learning in a certain way, but that's not really in line with how the book uses it.

What I've noticed is that the book uses different terms in the descriptions of different character classes.

Page 106 (Wizard OCC)

2. Additional Spells: "we will assumed the character has learned a few additional spells" .. "learn one new spell"
3. Learning New Spells: Spells and ritual magic of any level can be learned"

Page 108 (Warlock OCC)

Like the mystic, priest and witch, there is no true knowledge of spell casting or the mystic arts
instead the warlock .. can draw upon certain spell-like powers
2. Magic and Spell Casting .. The spell casting ability is not learned (like wizardry)

Page 67 (Priest OCC)

7. Spell Casting .. Priests are endowed with the ability to cast spells by their god. It is not a learned nor practised skill.

Page 159 (Psi-Mystic PCC)

most Psi-Mystics will tell you that one does not learn to become a mystic
the character intuitively knows how to cast six specific spells
Nor can the Psi-Mystic learn new spells like a wizard
he can select a total oftwo new magic spells

In the Psi-Mystic we see "select" rather than "learn" like for the Wizard. It seems to fit with the others as a non-learn means of spell knowledge which a vampire could still pursue.

I don't think there's anything at all preventing vampires, barred from standard wizardry additions, to switch to become a Warlock (perhaps a Water or Fire, nice defenses) to further their mystic abilities and compliment their demonic undead natural abilities.

The Enchanted Cauldron simply has you possess the spell knowledge because of a shared memory left behind. It seemed to me initially that you the learning process entirety, you just gain it. In this case I noticed a note at the end "Only spells from levels 1-6 can be learned this way" so I guess it is learning...

But in the process of questioning this, I'm going to shift the goalposts and say: hey, perhaps Vampires can become Warlocks since it's priestly and explicitly not-learning.

Does anyone know what happens to Diabolists/Summoners? The latter start off knowing everything so they don't have to gain new knowledge. Do they forget half their wards, or does the text only refer to spellcasting?

Would Summoners forget any summoning/protection circles? Would they be unable to learn Power Circles?

That is highly specious reasoning, based on reading the text incredibly closely, and ignoring the context of the ability. It's only valid if you consider the block on "learning" magic to only apply when someone uses the verb "learn".

I mean, by that logic, one can be taught magic... you didn't learn it, you were taught it. You could convert scrolls... you didn't learn it, you figured it out. I didn't "learn" a spell, I taught it to myself.

Just because some terms are presented as possible same-meaning or synonymous doesn't mean they all are. Wizard ability 2 says "figure out or learn" so you can class figuring-out as a form of learning. Wizard ability 3 says "can be learned and/or purchased" (provided one can find and instructor).

I think this shows that being taught results in learning (albeit not the only kind) so it excludes that escape. Converting scrolls and self-study are also 'figuring out'.

I think it's a clear difference from intuitively realizing a spell based on instinct or being granted it somehow.