Prayer of Intervention

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Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

:roll: You know as of 4/28/2014 marks my 25th year playing and Game Mastering Palladium stuff and ten years of writing
submissions, yet it always amazes me when I stumble upon something that I've just never noticed before or in my old age I
simply believe off the top of my head. Take for example the Priest of Light Prayer of Intervention. Now for some reason I've
been playing, GMing, and writing as if this ability was something a priest could only do twice in a 24 period. Back in 1st edition
it was something that could only be done once per 24 hours. And looking at Prayer of Strength and Communion I guess I just
had it in my head that Prayer of Intervention was the same thing. Nope. There nothing in the writing (text) that says how
many times it can be done in a day. Apparently you can keep doing it for as many successful rolls you make. I thought well
maybe this a typo (I've come to realize recently that Palladium has a lot of them in books), so I check out the Rifts Priest in
Conversion Book 2. Pantheons of the Megaverse. Nope, same thing. Word for word. So unless I'm missing something, I'm
going to have to impose a house rule against one of my players to put a stop to his endless prayers of intervention.
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by Library Ogre »

If he continues to bother his deity for intervention, have his deity specifically put a stop to that.

"Look, I gave you powers so you could deal with things. Instead of dealing with things, you're bothering me all the time. Seriously, you bothered me this morning because your coffee was cold. I'm not going to answer another one of your prayers until you prove that you can do something without it... and I have just the thing in mind."
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Agreed. I'm pretty sure it says somewhere that ALL powers are subject to arbitrary revocation or limitation by the deity if abused.
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by kiralon »

Reagren Wright wrote::roll: You know as of 4/28/2014 marks my 25th year playing and Game Mastering Palladium stuff and ten years of writing
submissions, yet it always amazes me when I stumble upon something that I've just never noticed before or in my old age I
simply believe off the top of my head. Take for example the Priest of Light Prayer of Intervention. Now for some reason I've
been playing, GMing, and writing as if this ability was something a priest could only do twice in a 24 period. Back in 1st edition
it was something that could only be done once per 24 hours. And looking at Prayer of Strength and Communion I guess I just
had it in my head that Prayer of Intervention was the same thing. Nope. There nothing in the writing (text) that says how
many times it can be done in a day. Apparently you can keep doing it for as many successful rolls you make. I thought well
maybe this a typo (I've come to realize recently that Palladium has a lot of them in books), so I check out the Rifts Priest in
Conversion Book 2. Pantheons of the Megaverse. Nope, same thing. Word for word. So unless I'm missing something, I'm
going to have to impose a house rule against one of my players to put a stop to his endless prayers of intervention.

Priest is one of the classes that makes me not believe people play the game without house rules, because you can use the excuse that the god says no, but that's like saying the mind mage cant do a mind bolt because he has a headache.

Even if you do bring back the first ed rule of 2 attempts and 1 successful use per day, the priest can cast any spell his god knows, so if the god isn't really a magic using one its not much of a problem, but if he/she worships Odin/Isis or the like who know all spells its gets harder again, prayer of intervention is classed as a prayer, like bless.
It doesn't actually say all powers are subject to arbitrary revocation if abused (unless the priest is abusing the god), that is one of the limitations of miracles, not prayers. Im playing a priest DM'd by Zyanitevp and he has asked that I don't use it very often otherwise whenever I get into real trouble I have huge chance of pulling off a sanctuary(or whatever) every round. The priest can use it to create scrolls as well.
Try the spell cast also can only be the 5 levels above the priest, and it can be attempted twice per day and succeed once per day, and apply that to scroll creation as well.
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by Library Ogre »

kiralon wrote:Priest is one of the classes that makes me not believe people play the game without house rules, because you can use the excuse that the god says no, but that's like saying the mind mage cant do a mind bolt because he has a headache.


I disagree. A prayer of intervention is requesting help from an NPC... an NPC you have a good relationship with, sure, but an NPC. As such, it should be limited by the interaction between the NPC and the PC. I can easily see a situation where a priest makes several prayers of intervention in a day and is completely justified (it was one hell of a day). But I can likewise see a situation where a priest bothers his deity enough for the deity to say "stop."
-overproduced by Martin Hannett

When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
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If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by kiralon »

Mark Hall wrote:
kiralon wrote:Priest is one of the classes that makes me not believe people play the game without house rules, because you can use the excuse that the god says no, but that's like saying the mind mage cant do a mind bolt because he has a headache.


I disagree. A prayer of intervention is requesting help from an NPC... an NPC you have a good relationship with, sure, but an NPC. As such, it should be limited by the interaction between the NPC and the PC. I can easily see a situation where a priest makes several prayers of intervention in a day and is completely justified (it was one hell of a day). But I can likewise see a situation where a priest bothers his deity enough for the deity to say "stop."

Just like I can see a headache stopping a mind mage from concentrating enough to use his powers. Its a limitation being added by the gm, not the book, or for example saying the priest blessed somebody too many times, because that's the category that the ability is in, even though it shouldn't be. Whereas the miracles do say something like that to stop them from being overused.
[edit] Or to be a little clearer, the percentile dice roll is the god saying yes or no to the power being used. Nowhere does is say that the god will stop it on a whim, unless the priest does something contrary to being e priest, but then of course it doesn't work.
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

kiralon wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
kiralon wrote:Priest is one of the classes that makes me not believe people play the game without house rules, because you can use the excuse that the god says no, but that's like saying the mind mage cant do a mind bolt because he has a headache.


I disagree. A prayer of intervention is requesting help from an NPC... an NPC you have a good relationship with, sure, but an NPC. As such, it should be limited by the interaction between the NPC and the PC. I can easily see a situation where a priest makes several prayers of intervention in a day and is completely justified (it was one hell of a day). But I can likewise see a situation where a priest bothers his deity enough for the deity to say "stop."

Just like I can see a headache stopping a mind mage from concentrating enough to use his powers. Its a limitation being added by the gm, not the book, or for example saying the priest blessed somebody too many times, because that's the category that the ability is in, even though it shouldn't be. Whereas the miracles do say something like that to stop them from being overused.
[edit] Or to be a little clearer, the percentile dice roll is the god saying yes or no to the power being used. Nowhere does is say that the god will stop it on a whim, unless the priest does something contrary to being e priest, but then of course it doesn't work.


That actually raises an interesting point. the game has a save vs. disease mechanic. how many GM's ever have their PC's get sick outside of poisoned weapons?
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by kiralon »

and how many people notice that turn dead only works on animated dead, mummies and ghouls. The create zombie spell says turn dead doesn't work on them because they are undead, not a dead being, yet turn dead works on the create mummy spell, even though is similar to the point it says the mummy is an undead being as well, just like the zombie. The description for turn dead does have mummy as part of that list of things it turns, as well as a ghoul, which isn't even dead or undead, its a demon.
not to mention it also taking 2 rounds to do, which at moderate to high level means the fight is over before you finish.
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by Prysus »

kiralon wrote:It doesn't actually say all powers are subject to arbitrary revocation if abused (unless the priest is abusing the god), that is one of the limitations of miracles, not prayers.

Greetings and Salutations. The PF main book doesn't say that, you're right. However, if you look at Dragons & Gods, page 88, it actually does (and since you'd need to know what spells the god/goddess has available, kind of an essential book when playing a priest). Look under "Standard Transfer."

The first paragraph kind of says that they generally don't focus on it and have prayers set to automatic (like Bruce Almighty saying "Yes to all"). Mind you, there's talk of kind of a balance there as well. The priest needs to be sending faith and offerings up to the god as well. Basically the god is expending P.P.E. to grant prayers, and the return is new worshippers, sacrifices, extra P.P.E., etc. This should create a type of balance (actually I'd say the god will take notice if it's only breaking even and prefers to come out ahead).

The second paragraph then stars off: "Of course, the god could step in and start overseeing how each and every blessing and prayer, healing touch and curse works." It then continues on about how if a priest isn't pulling his/her weight, the god can audit each request.

So yes, the book actually DOES say all powers are subject arbitrary revocation if abused. Mind you, that abuse probably means that the priest is taking more than he's giving (or at least taking more than the effort is worth).

On a personal note, there's also the factor of common sense. The priest serves the god (that's written in the book), not the other way around. The god is not the priest's personal ******. So if a priest is actually abusing his/her powers, then I'd personally consider it an abuse of the god (because the god isn't your servant, and treating it as such is very disrespectful). But that's more of a personal opinion and doesn't serve much point (since the book already says a good can audit a priests powers whenever, it's just not in the main book) beyond I wanted to get that off my chest. That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys to all.
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by kiralon »

Prysus wrote:So yes, the book actually DOES say all powers are subject arbitrary revocation if abused.

Lol, I missed that little bit, but it still say's only if abused. The flip side of that is if what a priest is doing isn't abusing the god it works, so the dm still has to make house rules about what the priest is and isn't allowed to do (one of those would be not to cast sanctuary whenever fighting a dragon), so it is still a limitation being added by the gm, not the book. The power has less limitations on it then any of the other prayers.

and most dm's would only say that the high level abilities are abuse because of what it does to their campaign not because of what the god thinks. If spells of legend weren't on the table spamming globe of daylight would rarely, if ever be called be called an abuse of their powers, also I have never heard a dm say that blessing people or using prayer of strength in every combat is an abuse.

100 priests doing a prayer of strength in a big combat would cost the god more PPE than a sanctuary, but a sanctuary would be more effective, but a dm would allow the prayer of strengths and not the sanctuary.

I play a priest in A god rebuilt, we are returning parts of Osiris, and I use DI very sparingly, not because I think the god wouldn't do the spell, but because of what it does to the campaign, but then I have the issue of I'm not actually trying my best to get these parts back, but DI allowing you to make teleport scrolls to get you around the places the god wants you to go and sanctuary to stop a fight and allow me beat the bad guys to death with impunity breaks the campaign. Finding out the limitations mid fight is a lot more annoying then having them worked out before hand.
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by kiralon »

Also
can you do DI's that let you cast elemental spells.


This ability is horribly broken, I do not know one DM that likes this ability because it's so powerful a level 1 character can take out a dragon.
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

Prysus wrote:
kiralon wrote:It doesn't actually say all powers are subject to arbitrary revocation if abused (unless the priest is abusing the god), that is one of the limitations of miracles, not prayers.

Greetings and Salutations. The PF main book doesn't say that, you're right. However, if you look at Dragons & Gods, page 88, it actually does (and since you'd need to know what spells the god/goddess has available, kind of an essential book when playing a priest). Look under "Standard Transfer."

The first paragraph kind of says that they generally don't focus on it and have prayers set to automatic (like Bruce Almighty saying "Yes to all"). Mind you, there's talk of kind of a balance there as well. The priest needs to be sending faith and offerings up to the god as well. Basically the god is expending P.P.E. to grant prayers, and the return is new worshippers, sacrifices, extra P.P.E., etc. This should create a type of balance (actually I'd say the god will take notice if it's only breaking even and prefers to come out ahead).

The second paragraph then stars off: "Of course, the god could step in and start overseeing how each and every blessing and prayer, healing touch and curse works." It then continues on about how if a priest isn't pulling his/her weight, the god can audit each request.

So yes, the book actually DOES say all powers are subject arbitrary revocation if abused. Mind you, that abuse probably means that the priest is taking more than he's giving (or at least taking more than the effort is worth).

On a personal note, there's also the factor of common sense. The priest serves the god (that's written in the book), not the other way around. The god is not the priest's personal ******. So if a priest is actually abusing his/her powers, then I'd personally consider it an abuse of the god (because the god isn't your servant, and treating it as such is very disrespectful). But that's more of a personal opinion and doesn't serve much point (since the book already says a good can audit a priests powers whenever, it's just not in the main book) beyond I wanted to get that off my chest. That's all for now. Farewell and safe journeys to all.


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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by 42dragon »

In my games I have always questioned the "that his god(s) knows." statement. Yes, a preist is knoweldgeable about his god(s). But how would a priest know specifically what spells his god(s) actually know. Even, a god like Thoth that knows all. Has the priest ever experienced or seen a Sactuary spell before. If not how would the priest even know to ask for that specific spell?

This is a Prayer of Intervention - asking the god(s) to intervene. In this case with a magical ability. I have always had my players ask for a type of intervention and then (if successful) the god(s) would decide what spell to give the priest. "Oh Great God, please lend your assistance to help us (defeat, escape, control, hide from, ect...) this menace." Now, since this ability was always left up to the god(s), the request was not made all that frequently. But the results were normally on the high end of the power spectrum.
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by DiceCollector »

Even if the player makes the roll is the god listening? If the player is abusing the power take it away! Make the character do the work NOT THE GOD!!
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by zyanitevp »

kiralon wrote:Also
can you do DI's that let you cast elemental spells.


This ability is horribly broken, I do not know one DM that likes this ability because it's so powerful a level 1 character can take out a dragon.

I, as the gm in Rebuilt, appreciate you limiting the use, as it is a game changer.
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Re: Prayer of Intervention

Unread post by kiralon »

DiceCollector wrote:Even if the player makes the roll is the god listening? If the player is abusing the power take it away! Make the character do the work NOT THE GOD!!

The problem with that idea is the priests powers all come from the god, the priest only has to pay the ppe for the spells he targets, all the other abilities are paid for by the god.

It is a good ability for priests if it is limited however, I limit it to spells up to 5 levels above the priest, and 2 tries and one success a day, and only of the spells the god knows, including the elemental ones (mostly like first ed's version), this adds flexibility to the priest, but doesn't make it too powerful. The super healing is fine, and I limit the scroll making to the same limits as the spells cast but they can have 1 scroll per level, so if they sell a scroll and no one uses it they don't get that slot back until someone does. This stops them from making loads of scrolls, but still lets them use the ability without me wanting to tear off their arms.
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