Dealing with a spell-whore

[Heres_Beefy]

Hey guys,
In the group I'm currently leading we have a level 6 Mage, he loves 3 spells when in combat
1 cloud of slumber
2 trance
3 carpet of adhesion
Im having a hard time challenging this player I how would you guys deal with this?
If tried explaining to him that it's annoying and disturbs the mission when he does these things but he can't seem to see my point of view.

[wodens_blade]

Hey guys,
In the group I'm currently leading we have a level 6 Mage, he loves 3 spells when in combat
1 cloud of slumber
2 trance
3 carpet of adhesion
Im having a hard time challenging this player I how would you guys deal with this?
If tried explaining to him that it's annoying and disturbs the mission when he does these things but he can't seem to see my point of view.

could be attacked by a mass of attackers (interrupt spell casting ability), hidden adversary (long bow sniper attacking ranged) a more powerful mage with negate magic...or even the exact same abilities. super natural beings that have a high resistance to magic. there are many things you do...what about OLD adversaries he has already faced and KNOW exactly how he cast his usual list of spells?

[kiralon]

1 and 3 are broken, talk to him about it and change the spells. If he doesn't like that hit the party with the same things over and over, because as it stands why would mages do other things at lower level, they are very effective.

[Zamion138]

Amulet of negate sleep
Flying creatures
Undead dont sleep and cant be put to sleep, flying groups of undead are hard to carpet .

Astral attackers
Ppe leaches stick to him and suck up his power in some stream right before hes attacked.
A temporal raider. (verry high saves and probably the same spells.)
Offer him a trade both thoose spells for one 10th lv spell take it or leave it.

[URLeader Hobbes]

Hey guys,
In the group I'm currently leading we have a level 6 Mage, he loves 3 spells when in combat
1 cloud of slumber
2 trance
3 carpet of adhesion
Im having a hard time challenging this player I how would you guys deal with this?
If tried explaining to him that it's annoying and disturbs the mission when he does these things but he can't seem to see my point of view.

TOP 10 WAYS TO DEAL WITH A MUNCHKIN MAGE

1) Control the environment. Cloud of slumber isn't gonna work to well when in a crawl and moving through tight areas. It's that whole friendly fire issue.

2) Someone getting stuck with carpet of adhesion; send psychic blasts at em. No need to move just look at the guy and think it.

3) Keep in mind spell lobbing is a two way street. You can totally use the same tactics against the party. COA cast from a distance while most of the party is asleep will ensure they don't get up outta bed when the one guy left on watch raises the alarm that the group is under attack. Oh and that sentry, use trance on him/her. That will show em.

4) Use invisibility to your advantage. He can't blast what he can't see. Sure he might get lucky with an AOE spell but it's gonna be pure guesswork.

5) Keep in mind the foes aren't stupid. If the bad guys hear that some mage keeps running roughshod all over every encounter that mage is gonna get a reputation as will the rest of the party. Someone will try sneakier tactics to get to them. (IE poison in the ale, a knife while they sleep, kidnapping a friend/loved one for leverage, etc.

6) Hit & Run tactics. He has to expend PPE for each spell. I'm guessing some of these spells are 1st round moves. Have foes attack and once he spends the PPE to cast a spell have them pull back. Then keep doing it. Sooner or later he's gonna start running low on magic energy.

7) Sneak attacks.... WITH DOGS!!! Have a guy with some trained attack dogs circle behind before the encounter starts. The guy blows a dog whistle and the dogs attack. Dogs move a lot quicker than people do and he can't dodge attacks from behind, so one leap attack and he is down on the ground and will figuratively if not literally be dog meat. Keep the other party members busy with the regular attacks from the other foes. (Ya know the ones the mage was looking at when that attack dog got him from behind.)

Anti magic cloud.

9) Save vs Pain (AKA GM's little helper) One shot that lands with an arrow and make him roll vs pain to avoid screwing up the spell.. He fails the PPE is spent but the spell doesn't work. Kinda hard to concentrate properly reciting an incantation and on manipulating the mystical energies to alter the reality of existence when you screaming in pain.

10) Character Assassination: When all else fails have his enemies start spreading rumors about the mage. (IE Consorting with devils/demons) Or even better maybe frame the mage for a crime. Someone picks the mages pocket in a crowded marketplace and swipes his dagger which later shows up stuck in the chest of a local priest who was beloved by the townsfolk. Wont be too long before he will be on the run, and also makes a nice plot hook.

[URLeader Hobbes]

1 and 3 are broken, talk to him about it and change the spells. If he doesn't like that hit the party with the same things over and over, because as it stands why would mages do other things at lower level, they are very effective.

No they aren't. Ya you just have to make them realize they aren't the only ones who can play by those rules. A few rounds of the party falling victim to their own tactics and they will change their tune pretty quick.

[ShadowLogan]

Hey guys,
In the group I'm currently leading we have a level 6 Mage, he loves 3 spells when in combat
1 cloud of slumber
2 trance
3 carpet of adhesion
Im having a hard time challenging this player I how would you guys deal with this?
If tried explaining to him that it's annoying and disturbs the mission when he does these things but he can't seem to see my point of view.

Nega-Psychics and Psi-Nullifiers, though this requires importing them from Rifts Psycape (or something similar, AFAIK they aren't in PF). Could also do a Power Leech D-Bee from Rifts (they can absorb PPE being cast), also in Rifts Psycape (or DBoNA). Though these options might come across as singling out the player.

Zavor (not sure which PF book they are in, but they can be found quickly in Rifts Conversion Book 1 Revised on the last two pages, it is from PF). Immune to magic, and magic that does damage will cause one to multiply.

Save vs Magic. At least for #1 & 2 can completely negate the spells, #3 reduces the time spent. Roll for it, and make sure you have an idea of what the NPCs will have in terms of bonuses in this area. Even in #3, the NPCs could resort to using ranged attacks of their own (spells, slings, knives, etc), or even masking their position (Cloud of Smoke) while stuck (assuming Anti-Magic Cloud or Negate Magic isn't an option in general).

Look for opponents who aren't vulnerable to these spells (ex, Golem's aren't going to be effected by #1 & 2, and a Zavor is immune to magic, etc) either in part or full.

Globe of Silence (pg201 PF2E). If not the spell itself, the description mentions that casters are effected because they can't cast spells because they can't speak... Look for a way to remove his ability to speak (Curse, Psionics, sickness, etc), even if it isn't via this specific spell.

If Line of Sight is required, have the NPCs come prepared. Basically "blind" him, either directly (ex Blind Flash, Cloud of Smoke/Darkness) or indirectly (Astral Projected, Invisible).

Traps & Puzzles may be another way to challenge the person instead of direct combat.

Illusions, get him to waste PPE against illusionary attackers (ex Apparition).

[Library Ogre]

You might also toss in incorporeal creatures (like Specters, ghosts, or non-possessing will-o-wisps). Air elementals are good, and warlocks might work for this. You might also get some mileage out of demons and the like, especially those that can shapechange.

Creatures that are a threat even at range. Remember that the range is big difficulty for wizards... you can usually shoot them long before they can shoot you.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Hey guys,
In the group I'm currently leading we have a level 6 Mage, he loves 3 spells when in combat
1 cloud of slumber
2 trance
3 carpet of adhesion
Im having a hard time challenging this player I how would you guys deal with this?
If tried explaining to him that it's annoying and disturbs the mission when he does these things but he can't seem to see my point of view.

1 opponent that does not need to breath.
2.....multiple attackers
3 can turn/is insubstantial or able to teleport. Make a house rule that those with SNPS are only slowed by the CoA like normal mortals are slowed by the AUGG Sticky Feet spell.

[Nightmask]

That's not a spell whore that's someone making reasonable use of the spells he has to best effect, which you'd expect a level 6 mage of reasonable intelligence to be doing. Just as you expect the fighter who has a really effective weapon to prefer to use it over the one that can barely get the job done or not at all. If you've problems with the spells then you review each one independently to see what its strengths and weaknesses are and plan accordingly.

As others have pointed out Carpet can't do much if the targets either aren't corporeal or have ranged attacks that can let them still hit the mage and his party anyway. So enemy spell-casters or specialists in ranged attacks are quite helpful in that case (and in general). The various spells in general aren't going to help if they either can't see the targets or the targets aren't of a type to be affected by them. If the party has developed a reputation and the mage's reputation in general precedes them then you can expect any group that's actively targeting the party to plan for those spells and have active counter-measures to defeat them.

[Riftmaker]

1) NEGATE MAGIC Level 8 invocation spell list. Once he starts crying let those sobs make you stronger.

2) A flying robot would be effected by none of those.

3) admit CoA is broken and house rule it as needed.

[Gthomas41571]

Well have a someone he has cast those on before hire a higher mage, to give him a ,dose of his own medicine, or have the spell rebound do to a item he picked up that's cursed..
I like the idea that there's always sometime bigger badder, and more powerful, then them, just to set
Him straight. Hope this helps

[eliakon]

The simplest solution I have had with curbing "Spell Abuse Shenanigans" in my games is to simply say that I will draw my NPC magic tactics from the PCs.
If the PCs want to spam certain spells in every fight, that's fine. No problem. They have however established that in this universe that that is the normal way of doing things. They can expect my NPC mages to preferentially select those spells as well (after all its the norm right?). And to use it early and often. I will also magic items in my game start to be designed around this (after all if this is the default of magical warfare then that is how magical warfare paraphernalia will be optimized....)

In your case, this would mean that those spells (as well as negate magic and dispel magic barrier) will be common. There will likely be lots of scrolls, talismans, and devices loaded with them (since they are the magical weapon go-to's, people will make items so they can do just that.) EVERY encounter with an enemy caster can be expected to involve these spells.

You don't have to get in a magical arms race against your players, that's not the point. BUT you don't have to simply let them curbstomp everything either.

[kiralon]

1 opponent that does not need to breath.

Only have to pass through it, don't need to breathe it.

1 and 3 are broken, talk to him about it and change the spells. If he doesn't like that hit the party with the same things over and over, because as it stands why would mages do other things at lower level, they are very effective.

No they aren't. Ya you just have to make them realize they aren't the only ones who can play by those rules. A few rounds of the party falling victim to their own tactics and they will change their tune pretty quick.

The fact that of you saying hitting them with the spells over and over until they stop doing it makes me think you do think they are broken too.
A spell you get at level one shouldn't let you kill dragons/gods/prettymuchanything. An adult fire dragon has +3 to save vs magic, so almost one in two times the spell makes the dragon helpless, so go poke out his eyes and pour poison down its throat, or just fill its mouth with water so it chokes to death breathing water into its lungs. I have had characters do exactly that, kill a great woolly dragon they were supposed avoid by cloud of slumbering it, cutting out the eyes, and blocking up the nose and throat, just cast the sleep spell on the body and the party goes to town on the dragons head. The spell only costs 4 ppe so the wizard just keeps casting it on the dragon to keep it down (a level 1 mage can cast it on average 25 times with it lasting 4 rounds, so again on average the party will have 48 rounds to deal with the dragon). I understand now how the old ones are asleep, they are in a room that casts cloud of slumber every round.

And my current dm hates carpet of adhesion, you can cast it on a person to makes their arms stick to their sides, or cast it on a foes weapon, his hand gets stuck to it, and the next thing he hits the weapon sticks to. Dragon puts head on ground, stick head to ground, cast it on his mouth to stick his mouth shut. Cast it on the ground a few times in front of a cavalry charge. Cast it on a sheathed sword etc etc. Very powerful spell for what it costs.

But as mentioned, talk to the players about the problem and usually they will see the issue and be helpful.
I recommend cloud of slumber not working on anything over lvl 3 and increasing the cost to 10 ppe.
I also recommend increasing the casting cost of carpet of adhesion to 60ppe to stop the easy multiple castings.



The problem with having items that negate and dispel is the extra loot the party gets if they win the fight, and they work on other things then just the things you want them to work on, its just another one of those unbalanced things that should have been ironed out earlier. I will partly recant what I said earlier, it is best to talk to the players about the problem, you hitting them over and over with the same tactics just tends to irritate and anger both sides, you are there to have fun as well, not just them, tell them this and see if you can come up with ideas to fix the problem.

[Killer Cyborg]

That's not a spell whore that's someone making reasonable use of the spells he has to best effect, which you'd expect a level 6 mage of reasonable intelligence to be doing. Just as you expect the fighter who has a really effective weapon to prefer to use it over the one that can barely get the job done or not at all. If you've problems with the spells then you review each one independently to see what its strengths and weaknesses are and plan accordingly.

As others have pointed out Carpet can't do much if the targets either aren't corporeal or have ranged attacks that can let them still hit the mage and his party anyway. So enemy spell-casters or specialists in ranged attacks are quite helpful in that case (and in general). The various spells in general aren't going to help if they either can't see the targets or the targets aren't of a type to be affected by them. If the party has developed a reputation and the mage's reputation in general precedes them then you can expect any group that's actively targeting the party to plan for those spells and have active counter-measures to defeat them.

Agreed.
Also, if you feel that the spells themselves are particularly unbalanced, you can always house-rule some changes.

[Cinos]

Any time a single spell (or group of spells) can be used without any sort of innovative combination and just shot blind into groups with out thought or planning AND be -highly- successful at it, it is not that the player is being clever or smart. They're using a powerful spell. All three of those spells are powerful, though trance is only so in it's niche and is honestly overshadowed by Slumber (Since slumber can also be used to disable sentries or other lone targets). As a GM, I'd look at the spells first and bring down their power levels slowly over time until it's still usable, but not an automatic choice to take, nor use, in every situation.

Now, there are methods of discouraging their use without modifying their rules (targeting the mage, environmental discouragements, etc) noted above, these are valid but they've been talked about so I won't go in depth into that now. However, the "Fight fire with Fire" method is not valid. It creates an arms race, and a very adversarial set of GM vs Players, which poisons the fun, and it just proves that the spells are broken and need fixing when they become the valid choice to counter the powerful option.

I will talk about nerf options; With CoA, I removed the "Stuck for X rounds on successful Save". This idea is pretty silly, and the "success" duration is so long as to make the save negligible. Instead, successful save was a moderate move reduction (25% to 50%), and I cut the base duration by about 50% (I'd have to dig up my notes to see exactly how long). Cloud I raised a bit in level (1 or 2) and reduce the base save needed BUT, characters in it suffered minus to 'speed' abilities (Strike, parry, dodge, anything that would require sharp reflexes or quick thinking). In addition, those in the cloud save each round, with the save growing dramatically per round, so if they can escape it, it's not a big deal. If they get trapped in it, it's quickly over. This allowed it to be used on the surface like a standard combat debuff, granting party wide bonuses in debuff form, and allowing the wizard some control over the movement of the field, and if they used it creatively or in conjunction with other tactics, it could end the fight in short order.

[flatline]

The player is using the most effective tools in his arsenal. If the spells are really that effective, then NPCs should be doing the same.

Like others here, I recommend house ruling the spells to achieve the balance you want.

--flatline

[eliakon]

Also...don't forget. If they are breezing through fights, then they get no XP. If its not a menace then it doesn't matter that it was a Woolly Dragon. It didn't stand a chance, and thus is, at best, a trivial menace.
If its regular it also cant count as 'quick plan', or 'clever thinking'......
If sessions grind to 50xp (you all played in character...but there was no risk, so no reward) The players may solve the problem for you. Either they will be content with getting tiny xp awards....or they will have to change how things are done so they can get more XP.
And since the entire party is getting no XP......*shrugs*

[say652]

Unfortunately, I side with the player.
A combo that works but I am also a plick so I would give reduced experience for each encounter said combo is used.
When they complain I I would reply "when exactly were you in danger and how was your foe(s) superior? ?"

[pblackcrow]

Hey guys,
In the group I'm currently leading we have a level 6 Mage, he loves 3 spells when in combat
1 cloud of slumber
2 trance
3 carpet of adhesion
Im having a hard time challenging this player I how would you guys deal with this?
If tried explaining to him that it's annoying and disturbs the mission when he does these things but he can't seem to see my point of view.

How is it disruptive to the mission?

[Chronicle]

a player who uses the same spells like you have described tends to be more predictable, you can counter with different strategies and overcome them.

A player of mine would use charged amulets with full PPE and use them to power the annihilate spell. After a while the villain picked up on his pattern and forced combat in small areas and even setup a TK Forcefield around the player, ending his use of that very destructive spell.

[zyanitevp]

@kiralon- well said

[Malakai]

Quick Question - Isn't Cloud of Slumber an Elemental Spell, restricted to Warlocks? How does he have it?

Generally speaking, with sleeping/trance type spells, I always rule damage breaks it, otherwise you get abuses like you are. it breaks the spirit of the spell to have something sleep while you cut into it, and anyone trying to say otherwise is looking to abuse it, in my opinion.

As far as Carpet of Adhesion: Teleporters, flyers, intangible enemies. Water Elementals would be a good one. messing with his line of sight would also be good, by say covering the area in a thick fog - random castings could catch his friends instead of the target. if he's casting it on the enemy directly, what happens when that enemy grabs old of one of his allies? there are a few creatures that can extend their reach in surprising ways, either through tendrils or even roots through the earth - getting their companion stuck with something that WANTS to grab on to them is never a good thing, especially if it can do damage just by proximity.

[kiralon]

Quick Question - Isn't Cloud of Slumber an Elemental Spell, restricted to Warlocks? How does he have it?

Generally speaking, with sleeping/trance type spells, I always rule damage breaks it, otherwise you get abuses like you are. it breaks the spirit of the spell to have something sleep while you cut into it, and anyone trying to say otherwise is looking to abuse it, in my opinion.

As far as Carpet of Adhesion: Teleporters, flyers, intangible enemies. Water Elementals would be a good one. messing with his line of sight would also be good, by say covering the area in a thick fog - random castings could catch his friends instead of the target. if he's casting it on the enemy directly, what happens when that enemy grabs old of one of his allies? there are a few creatures that can extend their reach in surprising ways, either through tendrils or even roots through the earth - getting their companion stuck with something that WANTS to grab on to them is never a good thing, especially if it can do damage just by proximity.

no unfortunately, CoS is a wizard spell too.

Generally when CoA is cast one some you don't go near them, you go behind them and shoot em full of arrows, or drop a wall of stone on them as they can't dodge

[Heres_Beefy]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys I think I'm going to try throwing a lizard Mage his way and if a little taste of his own medicine doesn't help I might have to consider the damage voiding the spell, it makes sense to me it's called cloud of slumber not cloud of coma.
If I were sleeping and someone started sawing away at my head I'd wake up pretty quick.

[The Beast]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys I think I'm going to try throwing a lizard Mage his way and if a little taste of his own medicine doesn't help I might have to consider the damage voiding the spell, it makes sense to me it's called cloud of slumber not cloud of coma.
If I were sleeping and someone started sawing away at my head I'd wake up pretty quick.

Not if they hit it hard enough.

[ShadowLogan]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys I think I'm going to try throwing a lizard Mage his way and if a little taste of his own medicine doesn't help I might have to consider the damage voiding the spell, it makes sense to me it's called cloud of slumber not cloud of coma.
If I were sleeping and someone started sawing away at my head I'd wake up pretty quick.

If the characters are attacking someone who is unconscious I'd check their actions against their alignment to see if that's in-line and take appropriate steps.

You might not need to void the spell, but could also look to modify the scope to be more in line with some of the psychic powers that can put someone to sleep. If altering the scope doesn't work, then move on to voiding the spell, though I'd talk it over with the player as to why the change is being done.

Might also consider having some of those slumbering do some "sleep walking"... er "sleep fighting"... factor in their "dream state" while slumbering...

[URLeader Hobbes]

1 and 3 are broken, talk to him about it and change the spells. If he doesn't like that hit the party with the same things over and over, because as it stands why would mages do other things at lower level, they are very effective.

No they aren't. Ya you just have to make them realize they aren't the only ones who can play by those rules. A few rounds of the party falling victim to their own tactics and they will change their tune pretty quick.

The fact that of you saying hitting them with the spells over and over until they stop doing it makes me think you do think they are broken too.

No I don't think they are broken at all.. It's more of a whats good for the goose is good for the gander type thing. If the mage wants to be uncreative and keep doing the same thing over and over again put it back on them. It's not broken in any way, shape or form. Like I said keep in mind that spell tossing is a two way street.

Also you really should read the other suggestions I posted. A few alternate plans incase you don't wanna take the fight fire with fire approach.

A spell you get at level one shouldn't let you kill dragons/gods/prettymuchanything. An adult fire dragon has +3 to save vs magic, so almost one in two times the spell makes the dragon helpless, so go poke out his eyes and pour poison down its throat, or just fill its mouth with water so it chokes to death breathing water into its lungs.

Unless I'm mistaken dragons don't need to breathe air. So congrats players.. As you are idiotically attempting to fill it's lungs with water it is healing the entire time and once the spell wears off it wakes up and is going to dimensional teleport the hell outta there.. Cast a few quick healing spells or use some psychic abilities to heal up fast and teleport right back for some SERIOUS PAYBACK!

Players better have taken off and found a way to get out of that area ASAP and really far far away. Otherwise they are gonna have a genius level beast with the power of a tank behind it coming after them.

I have had characters do exactly that, kill a great woolly dragon they were supposed avoid by cloud of slumbering it, cutting out the eyes, and blocking up the nose and throat, just cast the sleep spell on the body and the party goes to town on the dragons head. The spell only costs 4 ppe so the wizard just keeps casting it on the dragon to keep it down (a level 1 mage can cast it on average 25 times with it lasting 4 rounds, so again on average the party will have 48 rounds to deal with the dragon). I understand now how the old ones are asleep, they are in a room that casts cloud of slumber every round.

You also have to keep in mind that friendly fire comes into play. The mages allies are also gonna have to make saves for being in the cloud as well. Not sure how long you decided it would take them to pull off that little stunt but they should have had to make a ton of saves to make it happen.

And my current dm hates carpet of adhesion, you can cast it on a person to makes their arms stick to their sides, or cast it on a foes weapon, his hand gets stuck to it, and the next thing he hits the weapon sticks to. Dragon puts head on ground, stick head to ground, cast it on his mouth to stick his mouth shut. Cast it on the ground a few times in front of a cavalry charge. Cast it on a sheathed sword etc etc. Very powerful spell for what it costs.

This is a common misconception about Carpet of Adhesion. While you can cast it upon someone it doesn't "wrap around" anyone as is often thought. It's still flat.

From Page 194 under the description of the spell: The spell caster can alter the size and shape of this super flypaper (without exceeding the stated limit of 200 square feet), but it is always a flat sheet or carpet.

So while it can be cast upon a person it doesn't wrap about them. So no casting it to warp up both of a foes arms. It could be cast flat upon a characters arm or even a side but it can't wrap about someone for a strait jacket effect.

The natural intent of the spell and the phrase "cast upon someone" is more for the idea that someone can be occupying an area that it's cast upon. hence the term cast upon someone. IE A guy standing in a spot, or leaning up against a wall, etc. So even if it's allowable to cast it upon someones lips as long as they are not flat as a pancake then the rest of the victims body is free to move about and not hindered.

Again magic is a two way street. Toss this bad boy down on a sleeping party just prior to having raiders attack them in the middle of the night.. That one sentry left watching over the group while they sleep can start screaming for the group to wake up all he wants.. Won't do them any good as they will be stuck to the ground. Your bandits can just mozy in, unhobble the horses and ride off with them!

NOTE: This really works great if they have a wagon with supplies piled up in it, or recently looted treasure from an adventure!

But as mentioned, talk to the players about the problem and usually they will see the issue and be helpful.
I recommend cloud of slumber not working on anything over lvl 3 and increasing the cost to 10 ppe.
I also recommend increasing the casting cost of carpet of adhesion to 60ppe to stop the easy multiple castings.

That is one way of dealing with it.. But i think it is just too unimaginative to just amp up the cost on the spell.. I much prefer to turn the tables on the players every now and again. It not only creates good RP opportunities but really gives players some motivation. Sure they may have been motivated in getting the reward from whomever just hired them. But have them robbed by a bandit gang and talk about motivation!!! Even better if you have the bandits be all cocky and talk some smack to the players!

"We thank you ladies and stable boys for your generous donation to the Coinsnaggers antisobrity fund! Know that your donations will be well used in the finest ale houses and brothels in the Western Empire! You don't mind us borrowing these horses, i mean you are making a rather large donation. We are delighted to hear that you are so eager to part with your worldly possessions and wish you well in your new venture as beggar monks."

The problem with having items that negate and dispel is the extra loot the party gets if they win the fight, and they work on other things then just the things you want them to work on, its just another one of those unbalanced things that should have been ironed out earlier.

Some items can be created with limited charges. So that can take care of that problem. Sure the party gets extra loot if they win, but they also have to come up with new tactics to win and can't rely on the same ol standard.

I will partly recant what I said earlier, it is best to talk to the players about the problem, you hitting them over and over with the same tactics just tends to irritate and anger both sides, you are there to have fun as well, not just them, tell them this and see if you can come up with ideas to fix the problem.

Like I said it's a different approach to the problem/issue. I do agree that you both should come up with a way to figure out what works. But you have to keep in mind that both the party and the GM get to play by the same rules. So no matter what you decide on you both have to agree upon it.

Myself I like the group to be able to go to the books and come up with a plan or get an idea on how to make something work to overcome a problem. If I was to up the cost of solution or any aspect of the game i felt was broken we would be arguing a lot and playing a lot less.. Hence I make it known to the players that anything they can pull off so can the NPCs they deal with.. This puts both sides on a level playing field.

I guess you could think of it like a sports game. Both sides have to play by the rules in the book that have been agreed upon by those running the league. If one team comes up with a play or strategy the other side hasn't thought of then it's all good. The other side needs to figure out how to deal with it and/or counter the tactics going forward. It's not right to punish the side that was creative and insightful by changing the rulebook at halftime.

[URLeader Hobbes]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys I think I'm going to try throwing a lizard Mage his way and if a little taste of his own medicine doesn't help I might have to consider the damage voiding the spell, it makes sense to me it's called cloud of slumber not cloud of coma.
If I were sleeping and someone started sawing away at my head I'd wake up pretty quick.

Don't forget Lizard Mages get 2 Magic OCCs. So that should give it more than enough of a mystical arsenal to contend with a party. The right combinations can even deliver a good number of summonable minions as well.

[MrShowtime]

A spell-whore... I've never worded it like that lol

We have house rules in play for a couple of those spells.

For Cloud of Slumber, we have the spell work as a gas. If you don't breathe it in or don't breathe air etc you are unaffected. Also, since the casting Wizard breathes as well, he could be affected by the cloud. It is just an area spell anyway so it does make sense. That should at least make them think twice about using the cloud to take down big foes just to take their heads off as they could succumb to the sleep as well.

For Carpet of Adhesion, it makes no sense to have absolutely no chance of not being stuck. So we made the save a full save and not just the reduced amount of stuck time. It balances the spell out a little.

It might not stop him from using these over-powered spells but it does help curb their power ever so slightly.

[say652]

I play spells as written.
I also don't see a reason to penalize an effective combo. Just reduce the xp to minor menaces when ever said combo is used.

[Riftmaker]

IF all else fails unleash the ultimate player killer THe fabled "GAME MASTER"

[say652]

True.
Poison darts from invisible assailant.
Umm Landmines?!?!
A Glitterboy or Two!!

[Dark]

Generally I don't see a player being tactical/judicious with their use of their assets as a problem. In fact I see that as desirable, and would prefer to reward the effort of someone who is invested enough to know what is to their advantage. ( such as reading the books on their own etc. )

Mainly what I see in the description of the problem is encounters that are not set up in such a way as to challenge the group and/or in particular this mage.

That is ok, some of the time, as some encounters just are what they are. Not everyone is going to pack the necessary countermeasures to deal with mage, by any means. However the attitude that the player needs to be 'taught a lesson' I perceive as very negative and reactionary in a bad way. It isn't his fault that his character isn't terribly challenged by the recent encounters.

Instead just keep in mind what this mage is capable of when the occasion for an encounter tailored against this arises. If they make any real enemies who have time to plan their revenge or the like. Then loading for bear and countermeasures for their magic support is only logical.

[URLeader Hobbes]

Generally I don't see a player being tactical/judicious with their use of their assets as a problem. In fact I see that as desirable, and would prefer to reward the effort of someone who is invested enough to know what is to their advantage. ( such as reading the books on their own etc. )

Mainly what I see in the description of the problem is encounters that are not set up in such a way as to challenge the group and/or in particular this mage.

That is ok, some of the time, as some encounters just are what they are. Not everyone is going to pack the necessary countermeasures to deal with mage, by any means. However the attitude that the player needs to be 'taught a lesson' I perceive as very negative and reactionary in a bad way. It isn't his fault that his character isn't terribly challenged by the recent encounters.

Instead just keep in mind what this mage is capable of when the occasion for an encounter tailored against this arises. If they make any real enemies who have time to plan their revenge or the like. Then loading for bear and countermeasures for their magic support is only logical.

well said.

In fact allowing the player to get a bit overconfident can really work out in the GMs favor. Let them steamroll a couple of encounters and then down the road when they think it's gonnna be just another walk in the park thats when they run into trouble..

Another thing I also forgot was timing. Have that group of bandits the PCs have been beating up on catch them after a difficult crawl when the mage is likely to be low or out of PPE.

[Heres_Beefy]

It's not a bad thing that he knows his strengths, it's annoying when any major but not imminently life threatening encounter is over in 2 attacks. I'm not asking him to stop casting spells but rather change it up be a little creative give the others in the group a chance to do what they are good at.

[Dark]

Beefy,

You mentioned before you had a discussion with the player in question regarding this issue. Would you mind telling me about that discussion and how it went? You made it sound as if the player was not receptive to your points previously.

[Borast]

Hey guys,
In the group I'm currently leading we have a level 6 Mage, he loves 3 spells when in combat
1 cloud of slumber
2 trance
3 carpet of adhesion
Im having a hard time challenging this player I how would you guys deal with this?
If tried explaining to him that it's annoying and disturbs the mission when he does these things but he can't seem to see my point of view.

Ogre with a mid 20's PE can ignore CoS. (I've done it, except the one time I rolled a natural "1" while charging at the NPCs... Sigh...)
Not familiar with trance...but it is likely someone with a high ME could resist...
CoA - if you're strong enough, you just walk through it if I recall...

If all else fails...houserule the spells somehow. You don't have to nerf them... (I've had players try to argue that they should be able to ignite the AoE of a Grease spell!) Just find a loophole and beat him with it!

This is, naturally, if you choose not to use his own tactics against them. After all, that mage NPC with the 22 IQ and stone golem body guard isn't going to stand there and throw single target spells against a group, unless he has to.
Also, you can also use a Fire Warlock cast River of Fire at the group.
Then, if they can't see the attacker(s), he has to guess where the attack comes from.


Oh...there is also the ultimate option... If the encounter is not threatening...no XP. Just like the person cooking all the meals doesn't automatically receive 75XP a day. (Yes, I've had characters argue that since they have the skill and are using it, they should be awarded the XPs...)

[URLeader Hobbes]

Hey guys,
In the group I'm currently leading we have a level 6 Mage, he loves 3 spells when in combat
1 cloud of slumber
2 trance
3 carpet of adhesion
Im having a hard time challenging this player I how would you guys deal with this?
If tried explaining to him that it's annoying and disturbs the mission when he does these things but he can't seem to see my point of view.

Ogre with a mid 20's PE can ignore CoS. (I've done it, except the one time I rolled a natural "1" while charging at the NPCs... Sigh...)
Not familiar with trance...but it is likely someone with a high ME could resist...
CoA - if you're strong enough, you just walk through it if I recall...

If all else fails...houserule the spells somehow. You don't have to nerf them... (I've had players try to argue that they should be able to ignite the AoE of a Grease spell!) Just find a loophole and beat him with it!rr

This is, naturally, if you choose not to use his own tactics against them. After all, that mage NPC with the 22 IQ and stone golem body guard isn't going to stand there and throw single target spells against a group, unless he has to.
Also, you can also use a Fire Warlock cast River of Fire at the group.
Then, if they can't see the attacker(s), he has to guess where the attack comes from.


Oh...there is also the ultimate option... If the encounter is not threatening...no XP. Just like the person cooking all the meals doesn't automatically receive 75XP a day. (Yes, I've had characters argue that since they have the skill and are using it, they should be awarded the XPs...)

Ohhh another good one.. Automatons with ranged weapons. Animated foes and/or constructs can't fall prey to COS or Trance as they have no free will or consciousness of their own. Sure COA will still work but that is what ranged weapons are for.

[Heres_Beefy]

Dark
I've tried on many occasions to explain to the player that when he only uses those spells it makes it very difficult to challenge him.
He said I just need to throw stronger stuff at him, the problem is there is a leve difference between him and the other group members so throwing something even bigger at them wouldn't be fair to the cannon fodder that makes up the rest of the group.
I'm going to try separating him from the group throwing a lizard Mage at him and seeing if that helps.

[Nightmask]

Dark
I've tried on many occasions to explain to the player that when he only uses those spells it makes it very difficult to challenge him.
He said I just need to throw stronger stuff at him, the problem is there is a leve difference between him and the other group members so throwing something even bigger at them wouldn't be fair to the cannon fodder that makes up the rest of the group.
I'm going to try separating him from the group throwing a lizard Mage at him and seeing if that helps.

You might want to try and see things from the player's side. He's got an effective combination of spells that helps his character survive along with the rest of the group and both IC and OOC would make little sense to not use yet his GM is saying basically 'stop trying so hard to survive and instead make it easier for me to kill you' from his perspective. He's not interested in not using them because he's not interested in making it more difficult for his character or the rest of the group to survive by deliberately choosing to be less effective in dangerous situations when he knows the spells he's using are so effective.

[eliakon]

Dark
I've tried on many occasions to explain to the player that when he only uses those spells it makes it very difficult to challenge him.
He said I just need to throw stronger stuff at him, the problem is there is a leve difference between him and the other group members so throwing something even bigger at them wouldn't be fair to the cannon fodder that makes up the rest of the group.
I'm going to try separating him from the group throwing a lizard Mage at him and seeing if that helps.

You might want to try and see things from the player's side. He's got an effective combination of spells that helps his character survive along with the rest of the group and both IC and OOC would make little sense to not use yet his GM is saying basically 'stop trying so hard to survive and instead make it easier for me to kill you' from his perspective. He's not interested in not using them because he's not interested in making it more difficult for his character or the rest of the group to survive by deliberately choosing to be less effective in dangerous situations when he knows the spells he's using are so effective.

Easy enough. He doesn't have to stop using them.....
...but he doesn't have to get XP either. No threat no XP.
A the XP section clearly says if the monster isn't a threat then it wasn't a menace. Its not clever use anymore either. RP xp wont level him as fast as the others.....
So the problem with them being lower level will self correct quickly enough.

And while his character has a good combination.....
....would the player be fine if enemy mages did this to them? If he doesn't mind that then its fine. Beefy can throw enemy mages at the group that are doing stuff like this. If he would complain that Beefy is a Killer GM though then there is a problem. A trick should be fair for both sides. (This would be the difference between a 'smart player' though and an 'entitled player' The first is a player who looks at the game and uses the best tools. The second is the type of player who feels that only their character should get the tools and everything else just exists to provide them with XP and loot.)

[Nightmask]

Dark
I've tried on many occasions to explain to the player that when he only uses those spells it makes it very difficult to challenge him.
He said I just need to throw stronger stuff at him, the problem is there is a leve difference between him and the other group members so throwing something even bigger at them wouldn't be fair to the cannon fodder that makes up the rest of the group.
I'm going to try separating him from the group throwing a lizard Mage at him and seeing if that helps.

You might want to try and see things from the player's side. He's got an effective combination of spells that helps his character survive along with the rest of the group and both IC and OOC would make little sense to not use yet his GM is saying basically 'stop trying so hard to survive and instead make it easier for me to kill you' from his perspective. He's not interested in not using them because he's not interested in making it more difficult for his character or the rest of the group to survive by deliberately choosing to be less effective in dangerous situations when he knows the spells he's using are so effective.

Easy enough. He doesn't have to stop using them.....
...but he doesn't have to get XP either. No threat no XP.
A the XP section clearly says if the monster isn't a threat then it wasn't a menace. Its not clever use anymore either. RP xp wont level him as fast as the others.....
So the problem with them being lower level will self correct quickly enough.

So basically punish him for making good use of his spells. Either get no experience for the fights he helps everyone survive or intentionally put himself and the rest at risk being stupid in the use of his spells if he wants to advance (and going how the experiene tables are set up NO ONE would be getting any experience not just the mage, so no one would be advancing since it was everyone who benefited).

And while his character has a good combination.....
....would the player be fine if enemy mages did this to them? If he doesn't mind that then its fine. Beefy can throw enemy mages at the group that are doing stuff like this. If he would complain that Beefy is a Killer GM though then there is a problem. A trick should be fair for both sides. (This would be the difference between a 'smart player' though and an 'entitled player' The first is a player who looks at the game and uses the best tools. The second is the type of player who feels that only their character should get the tools and everything else just exists to provide them with XP and loot.)

Actually no, things don't have to be fair to both sides. Do the players get infinite resources to do whatever they wish? No. Can they call up whoever they want to make things more difficult anytime they wish or just fudge what's on their sheets or dice rolls to bend things in their favor? No. The GM can though. The only things the players have going for them is being as tricky and effective as they can be with the limited resources they have and it's really not fair to actively punish them when they find something that works well.

[Damian Magecraft]

Dark
I've tried on many occasions to explain to the player that when he only uses those spells it makes it very difficult to challenge him.
He said I just need to throw stronger stuff at him, the problem is there is a leve difference between him and the other group members so throwing something even bigger at them wouldn't be fair to the cannon fodder that makes up the rest of the group.
I'm going to try separating him from the group throwing a lizard Mage at him and seeing if that helps.

You might want to try and see things from the player's side. He's got an effective combination of spells that helps his character survive along with the rest of the group and both IC and OOC would make little sense to not use yet his GM is saying basically 'stop trying so hard to survive and instead make it easier for me to kill you' from his perspective. He's not interested in not using them because he's not interested in making it more difficult for his character or the rest of the group to survive by deliberately choosing to be less effective in dangerous situations when he knows the spells he's using are so effective.

Easy enough. He doesn't have to stop using them.....
...but he doesn't have to get XP either. No threat no XP.
A the XP section clearly says if the monster isn't a threat then it wasn't a menace. Its not clever use anymore either. RP xp wont level him as fast as the others.....
So the problem with them being lower level will self correct quickly enough.

So basically punish him for making good use of his spells. Either get no experience for the fights he helps everyone survive or intentionally put himself and the rest at risk being stupid in the use of his spells if he wants to advance (and going how the experiene tables are set up NO ONE would be getting any experience not just the mage, so no one would be advancing since it was everyone who benefited).

Punish a player for being repetitive? How is it punishing him to reward him what the combat was worth? If it was difficult that would be worth X if it was a cake walk that is only worth y.

And while his character has a good combination.....
....would the player be fine if enemy mages did this to them? If he doesn't mind that then its fine. Beefy can throw enemy mages at the group that are doing stuff like this. If he would complain that Beefy is a Killer GM though then there is a problem. A trick should be fair for both sides. (This would be the difference between a 'smart player' though and an 'entitled player' The first is a player who looks at the game and uses the best tools. The second is the type of player who feels that only their character should get the tools and everything else just exists to provide them with XP and loot.)

Actually no, things don't have to be fair to both sides. Do the players get infinite resources to do whatever they wish? No. Can they call up whoever they want to make things more difficult anytime they wish or just fudge what's on their sheets or dice rolls to bend things in their favor? No. The GM can though. The only things the players have going for them is being as tricky and effective as they can be with the limited resources they have and it's really not fair to actively punish them when they find something that works well.

any tactic the players use is fair game for the NPCs.
In beefy's case his players have established that this tactic is common place. Therefore it stands to reason that NPC mages will also resort to it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hey guys,
In the group I'm currently leading we have a level 6 Mage, he loves 3 spells when in combat
1 cloud of slumber
2 trance
3 carpet of adhesion
Im having a hard time challenging this player I how would you guys deal with this?
If tried explaining to him that it's annoying and disturbs the mission when he does these things but he can't seem to see my point of view.

Ogre with a mid 20's PE can ignore CoS. (I've done it, except the one time I rolled a natural "1" while charging at the NPCs... Sigh...)

Actually, the spell says that even if you save, you are still stuck for 2d4 melee rounds, just not the whole duration as you stickly wade your way out of it

Not familiar with trance...but it is likely someone with a high ME could resist...

it's regular save vs. magic, so high PE helps

CoA - if you're strong enough, you just walk through it if I recall...

Nope, Strength does absolutely nothing to help, although i've seen some GM's houserule that beings with SN PS just rip out parts of the floor, it's just that, houserule.

[Dark]

Beefy,

Can you tell me a bit more about the party composition? How great is this level disparity in the group? What are the other characters?

In general I still maintain that it isn't this PCs fault if the encounters aren't really challenging them. Like you said, they are more powerful than the rest of the group.

Your intended tactic of separating him from the group and confronting him with his own challenge is something I would worry would feel a bit contrived and/or directed, depending on how it was executed. Basically if I can tell I as a player am being singled out/targeted, then I will probably resent it, and he might feel the same.

For myself, I don't tend to aim for encounter scaling, but instead 'realism'. Being I don't aim for a 'suitable' encounter, I just figure out what the encounter 'should' be according to the setting etc.

Mmm.

For now my suggestion to you would be to give them multiple time sensitive objectives that need to be accomplished at roughly the same time. Rather than singling out the mage who is higher level, force them to decide between staying together and being able to achieve everything they want. Then when they (probably) split up, you have multiple groups to challenge on their own. One set of folks goes to rescue the Damsel In Distress while another group tries to capture Dastardly Dan... and oh by the by, the valuables are being taken by Rochefort over there, so the party thief/rogue/assassin/whatever might be interested etc.

Give them all something to be worried about. Even or especially the mage. If he decides to go looking for things on his own, because they are his things that he is interested in, then he made that call and has to deal with it. But that will 'feel' very different than you cutting him out from the group to thrown something beasty at etc.

[The Beast]

Hey guys,
In the group I'm currently leading we have a level 6 Mage, he loves 3 spells when in combat
1 cloud of slumber
2 trance
3 carpet of adhesion
Im having a hard time challenging this player I how would you guys deal with this?
If tried explaining to him that it's annoying and disturbs the mission when he does these things but he can't seem to see my point of view.

Ogre with a mid 20's PE can ignore CoS. (I've done it, except the one time I rolled a natural "1" while charging at the NPCs... Sigh...)

Actually, the spell says that even if you save, you are still stuck for 2d4 melee rounds, just not the whole duration as you stickly wade your way out of it

Not familiar with trance...but it is likely someone with a high ME could resist...

it's regular save vs. magic, so high PE helps

CoA - if you're strong enough, you just walk through it if I recall...

Nope, Strength does absolutely nothing to help, although i've seen some GM's houserule that beings with SN PS just rip out parts of the floor, it's just that, houserule.

You read that wrong...

[eliakon]

Dark
I've tried on many occasions to explain to the player that when he only uses those spells it makes it very difficult to challenge him.
He said I just need to throw stronger stuff at him, the problem is there is a leve difference between him and the other group members so throwing something even bigger at them wouldn't be fair to the cannon fodder that makes up the rest of the group.
I'm going to try separating him from the group throwing a lizard Mage at him and seeing if that helps.

You might want to try and see things from the player's side. He's got an effective combination of spells that helps his character survive along with the rest of the group and both IC and OOC would make little sense to not use yet his GM is saying basically 'stop trying so hard to survive and instead make it easier for me to kill you' from his perspective. He's not interested in not using them because he's not interested in making it more difficult for his character or the rest of the group to survive by deliberately choosing to be less effective in dangerous situations when he knows the spells he's using are so effective.

Easy enough. He doesn't have to stop using them.....
...but he doesn't have to get XP either. No threat no XP.
A the XP section clearly says if the monster isn't a threat then it wasn't a menace. Its not clever use anymore either. RP xp wont level him as fast as the others.....
So the problem with them being lower level will self correct quickly enough.

So basically punish him for making good use of his spells. Either get no experience for the fights he helps everyone survive or intentionally put himself and the rest at risk being stupid in the use of his spells if he wants to advance (and going how the experiene tables are set up NO ONE would be getting any experience not just the mage, so no one would be advancing since it was everyone who benefited).

How is it punishing someone? If there is no threat to the player then there is no challenge. If there is no challenge then you don't get XP. This is pretty clearly explained in the XP section of the rule book. In point of fact the example of XP awards explicitly uses this sort of situation as the example and says that the PCs would not get XP.
And the other players may still get XP if they were threatened, or if they do something clever, or risky....now if they all sit back and say "its okay the mage will get them" .... then no XP for them either.

And while his character has a good combination.....
....would the player be fine if enemy mages did this to them? If he doesn't mind that then its fine. Beefy can throw enemy mages at the group that are doing stuff like this. If he would complain that Beefy is a Killer GM though then there is a problem. A trick should be fair for both sides. (This would be the difference between a 'smart player' though and an 'entitled player' The first is a player who looks at the game and uses the best tools. The second is the type of player who feels that only their character should get the tools and everything else just exists to provide them with XP and loot.)

Actually no, things don't have to be fair to both sides. Do the players get infinite resources to do whatever they wish? No. Can they call up whoever they want to make things more difficult anytime they wish or just fudge what's on their sheets or dice rolls to bend things in their favor? No. The GM can though. The only things the players have going for them is being as tricky and effective as they can be with the limited resources they have and it's really not fair to actively punish them when they find something that works well.

This is rather a strawman argument. Your taking a hyper-extreme view of what I am saying that distorts my claim (Especially since it implies that the GM is cheating/fudging things because they are the GM.) and then using that distortion (Well the GM cheats) to support a claim (so we should be allowed, nay rewarded for doing anything want) that is not even at odds to my claim. (I didn't say the PCs cant do this, I said that the PCs should not get XP if they do this.....Anymore than I would allow the PCs to get XP for flooding dungeon and then claiming that all the drowned monsters were 'menaces' and thus should get them XP. Clever idea maybe, but not 'defeat a great menace....there was no threat to the players)

And I would argue that making peoples actions only pay out based on the effect is not the same as 'actively punishing' them. Actively punishing them would be to say "okay if you use these spells then I will take away all your xp for this adventure" or saying "you have used to much magic, so I am taking away your mages spell casting for a month because ummmm he has wizard fever."
It is not punishment to say "I am sorry but you are only going to get the rewards that are commensurate with the actions that you have taken."

[Heres_Beefy]

I don't think using the same spells over and over is being clever it was clever the first time not any more.

Dark,
He is level 8
We also have a level 4
And 2 level 1s
I agree singling him out may come off as unfair but it's also not fair that he ends every confrontation before the others get a shot at it. He also has no regard for the other members of the party, for example the last time we played he used coa to stick a large monster. One of our party members went in for an attack and got stuck. The monster than tried to pick up the player who was stuck and I made it very clear she was about to be torn in half, he didn't cancel the spell he didn't show sympathy nothing.

If debated having him forget spells that he doesn't use, since he focuses so completely on 3 of his spells and almost none of the others it would make sense to me he might start to forget the others.
I might not go that far I want the game to be fun but I also want everyone to be able to participate in the battles.

[eliakon]

I don't think using the same spells over and over is being clever it was clever the first time not any more.

Dark,
He is level 8
We also have a level 4
And 2 level 1s
I agree singling him out may come off as unfair but it's also not fair that he ends every confrontation before the others get a shot at it. He also has no regard for the other members of the party, for example the last time we played he used coa to stick a large monster. One of our party members went in for an attack and got stuck. The monster than tried to pick up the player who was stuck and I made it very clear she was about to be torn in half, he didn't cancel the spell he didn't show sympathy nothing.

If debated having him forget spells that he doesn't use, since he focuses so completely on 3 of his spells and almost none of the others it would make sense to me he might start to forget the others.
I might not go that far I want the game to be fun but I also want everyone to be able to participate in the battles.

With a level disparity this wide you might need to provide a boost to the other players to get their levels up.
As it is he is twice the level of the next highest player and higher than the combined levels of the entire rest of the party....so yeah he is going to dominate pretty utterly with the rest of the group being reduced to little better than sidekicks.
Perhaps you could work something in to give the others some levels (a side adventure for them, a chance for some one on one training from an old hero (kung fu training montage optional), a magic item....something) if you can bring the others up to be closer to his level then it might be a bit less one sided (a lv8 a lv6-7 and 2 level 4s or 5s would be a lot more 'equitable')