Do summoned enteties level up with his summoner

[Lodisy]

So, I have another summoner related question. My GM has been quite permissible regarding my summoning shenanigans. My Gargoyle somewhat eclipses the remaining members of my party and even as just my summoner I'm pretty sure I could take some other members of my party.

My GM seems to like the idea of forming more permanent bonds of friendship with my summoned minions. He even seems interested in having my gargoyle possibly someday achieving his true potential and becoming a gargoyle lord.

The rulebook says you use the Ranger experience track for the Gargoyle, which seems to imply to me that they are intended to level with the party, but I'm not sure, as the rules for leveling them are never stated and other things in the book seem to indicate they would not.

So my question is: if I can level my Gargoyle, do I take levels in Soldier O.C.C. (that is where they draw their skills from) do I take levels in ranger, do I take levels in some unknown Gargoyle R.C.C. or would my GM and I have to houserule something new? If rules already exist somewhere, that would be awesome.

Last thing. I'd like peoples opinion. Is trying to level my gargoyle up too much? I feel like I might already be bothering one of my party members by eclipsing him (he was the muscle before my gargoyle showed up) and once my gargoyle gets his giant double axes, he will be substantially more powerful.

Any and all feedback/advice would be appreciated, thank you!

-Lodisy

[Library Ogre]

I would say it's very reasonable for your summon to level up at about the rate you do, especially if you can summon the same individual again and again (and, thus, he gets experience for your adventuring).

Gargoyles, however, are what's called an RCC... they're a race-that-is-a-class. There might be a few with proper OCCs, but most of your gargoyles won't, and I'd be reluctant to allow it as a GM. So, when he levels, get gets the listed benefits for his RCC (can't recall them off the top of my head), a bonus to any skills he has for leveling up, and an increase in his hand to hand skill (if he has one; again, I can't recall). If you have Rifts books, there may be a more complete Gargoyle RCC that you can use.

[Lodisy]

Awesome. I'm super new to PFRPG and I've never played any sort of Rifts game. I have a few of the books, but nothing major. If someone could give me an idea of what book I'd need to look in to find Gargoyle R.C.C. that would be much appreciated, otherwise I'll just look till I find it
Love your signature, Mark.
Maybe I should get one, and an avatar.

[burgler81]

Look in NGR\Triax Rifts world book 5, or the Hades book dimension book.

[Lodisy]

Awesome, thank you

[Starmage21]

Whenever I've rolled up summoner minions, its always been according to exactly what the books say a random gargoyle would look like, which also includes a dieroll on what level gargoyle they are in terms of RCC level.

[Library Ogre]

Looking at the Gargoyle on page 314 of the PFRPG, I'd just go with that. Call them a Soldier, give them 3 skills plus the secondary skills, and level them up as you go along. I would also ignore what the RCC says about ignoring their hand-to-hand skill; I'd use that as the basis for the Gargoyle gaining hand to hand bonuses and attacks as they level up.

Now, to party dynamics... a summoner can be a rough customer, with their summoned creatures adding substantial heft. But you're not going to be able to jander into town with a 10-20' gargoyle at your back, and he's not able to disappear like a gargoyle mage or gargoyle lord.

[Lodisy]

I had definitely considered that. I've done some things to boost my personal defense (I have a parry of 10 with my blocking dagger), and I think for my second summon I'm going to do a Fiend and have him take an innocuous form so he can follow me into towns and such. Fiend doesn't seem to be nearly as powerful as a gargoyle, but being able to go anywhere with me (with the exception of holy ground maybe, or anti Deevil circles) seems well worth it.

On that note, if you have a better suggestion for a summon that can follow me into towns and whatnot, that would be well appreciated. ( I understand I could summon an actual human NPC or even a PC with the right circle, but that seems more evil than my character is at this point).

[drewkitty ~..~]

Do a summoned minion level up when the summoner levels up? No.

Can they level up? yes, but the GM would need to assign EXP to the summoned minion somehow.

[Library Ogre]

Your problem with summoning demons and deevils is always what you have to work with... they're nasty jerks who will cheerfully cause all manner of trouble, from simple mischief to outright murder. There aren't too many things you CAN summon that won't have that same problem.

Elementals tend to be literal, but unlikely to cause trouble just because. An air elemental can be invisible, nearby, and nasty, without being a demonic presence. Earth Elementals can likewise tag along through the ground, without too much trouble. Both have the drawback that they prefer not to be summoned.

[Starmage21]

I tend to take Mark's stance on it most of the time. We know that demons and deevils will be jerks on purpose, because theyre evil. But lots of creatures will resent the kind of captivity that being summoned entails, and they will do the same thing. Taking steps to prevent jerky-ness is a must.

[Lodisy]

I gave my Gargoyle the standard 3 laws of robotics/ 4 laws of demonics (patent pending)
1) you may never harm me or through inaction allow me to come to harm.
2) (I made this one up) You may not harm any sentient being or property of another sentient being without my consent, except where it interferes with the first law (meaning even if I should somehow accidentally instruct him to harm me, the first law would prevent it)
3) you may never allow innocence to come to harm except where it interferes with the first law
4) you may not allow yourself to come to harm, except where it interferes with the first, second and third law.

It sounds foolproof, but as readers of I Robot can attest to, it certainly is not.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The offical answer is no, Demons do not level up with the summoner, in fact they level up abysmally slow. most demons are thousands of years old and maybe 6-8th level after all.

but the GM is free to give them XP/Levels if he wants, nothing says they can't, it's just not default.

[Library Ogre]

If he's going to let you go all "Four Laws of Demonics", then I'd glance through the demonic bestiary in the PFRPG and find something that can look human (or otherwise innocuous) at will.

[Tor]

I thought you were just born a Gargoyle Lord or Mage, not that they were stuff normal Gargoyles could train to become. Same as how Gargoylites are not just baby Gargoyles.

[Library Ogre]

I thought you were just born a Gargoyle Lord or Mage, not that they were stuff normal Gargoyles could train to become. Same as how Gargoylites are not just baby Gargoyles.

This is correct. Some few gargoyles are born lords or mages; though never specifically said, I like the idea that these randomly pop up in normal gargoyle bloodlines, not that they're separate breeds entirely (so you can't necessarily eugenics ALL lords, ALL mages, or NO lords or NO mages). Gargoylites and Gurgoyles I understood as being separate breeds entirely, though.

[Lodisy]

I haven't found anything in the books to indicate that Gargoyles are born as Gargoyle Lords, though I am admittedly not nearly as knowledgeable on PF as some others here.

My rationale is that, with the exception of stone form, Gargoyle Lords don't have any abilities or attributes that couldn't be gained/learned from experience (They're the same height, have the same attribute spread, etc.), and I think maybe stone form is something that all Gargoyles could attain from enough discipline or training.

[Library Ogre]

Huh. I looked back over it, and can see how the statements I read as being "some gargoyles are born with mage or lord abilities" can easily be read as "these are small subspecies that don't have the fecundity of regular gargoyles."

Because that's about the only way for it to really happen... though I did have a neat thought of gargoyles being eusocial, and the various breeds being the result of different environments for the eggs (completely unsupported, but a neat idea).

[Tor]

Might be a fun rule to make Lords/Mages sterile, but the problem here is that you have that old NPC queen who has a daughter so maybe not Mages, but I could see Lords at least being sterile.

Or maybe (due to the commonality of turning to stone) the offspring of Gargoyle Lords become Gargoylites and Gargoylites are sterile?

*has trouble picturing a pregnant gargoylite*

[kiralon]

Might be a fun rule to make Lords/Mages sterile, but the problem here is that you have that old NPC queen who has a daughter so maybe not Mages, but I could see Lords at least being sterile.

Or maybe (due to the commonality of turning to stone) the offspring of Gargoyle Lords become Gargoylites and Gargoylites are sterile?

*has trouble picturing a pregnant gargoylite*

lol
maybe they lay eggs?

[Library Ogre]

I had some notes on this in an old notebook. IIRC, I had Gargoyle Lords and Mages be the result of rare mutations that made them very powerful, but sterile. Gargoylites were the result of specific experimentation on gargoyle eggs by Gargoyle Mages... they could reproduce, but some new ones were created every now and again.

IMC, gargoyles are egg-laying, including gargoylites. Their egg beds are extensive, and usually too small for full-size gargoyles, so they are defended by gurgoyles. I don't see a problem with a Gargoyle Lord having a "daughter"... just because they're not strictly blood doesn't prevent the relationship from being there, and it might be culturally common for older Gargoyle Lords to adopt a younger one in a parental relationship.

[Tor]

maybe they lay eggs?

I believe they do, but I think you still swell in the belly while forming the eggs prior to laying.

[Library Ogre]

maybe they lay eggs?

I believe they do, but I think you still swell in the belly while forming the eggs prior to laying.

Depends on how many you lay and how big the egg is as a proportion of your body. Keep in mind that gargoyles are 10-20 feet tall... something that big could easily carry 3-4 basketball sized eggs in its abdomen and you wouldn't notice.

[glitterboy2098]

Triax 2 has details on gargoyle reproductive methods. In short, they lay eggs, and prefer caves and other sheltered areas to incubate them. Incubation is along reptile lines in method.

As far as summoned gargoyles go though, I'd say use the RCC as described in the hades book, since those native to other dimensions aren't as likely to be the ones summoned.

[Tor]

Perhaps we could use the 'Deevil Dragon' in Dyval as a guideline for Hades Gargoyles. Like perhaps selling out to a Demon Lord makes the Gargoyles infertile and they reproduce by stealing the eggs of un-bound Gargoyles?

[Veknironth]

Well, I hope Lodisy's GM isn't on the forums because I'm about to ruin his 3rd law of demonic's. Without defining "Innocents" (I assume you meant that and not "innocence") the gargoyle can merely regard anything as guilty. It doesn't even matter of what the creature is guilty (guilty of being in my way), the mere fact of it being guilty of SOMETHING makes it not innocent. If you're not in a court of law, focusing on a crime, then innocent implies a general innocence which a summoned creature can explain away with ease. That would include the PC's.

Further, the Gargoyle can essentially attack anyone it can reasonably believe is about to cause you harm. If one of your comrades draws a sword within your vicinity, that could mean the comrade is going to attack you, which would allow the creature to attack it. The same would go for any authorities who are close to you, or a weaponsmith, an alchemist, any wizard who is speaking, etc. To counteract this, you would have to spell out exactly what actions are ones which could lead you to be harmed, which would mean all other actions the creature could ignore. IT could even be a total jerk and make you specify every action. "what do you mean swinging a sword at you?"

The problem is YOU know when you feel at risk but the creature has its own mind and can willfully think differently.

-Vek
"Demons are too much trouble."

[Library Ogre]

Well, I hope Lodisy's GM isn't on the forums because I'm about to ruin his 3rd law of demonic's. Without defining "Innocents" (I assume you meant that and not "innocence") the gargoyle can merely regard anything as guilty. It doesn't even matter of what the creature is guilty (guilty of being in my way), the mere fact of it being guilty of SOMETHING makes it not innocent. If you're not in a court of law, focusing on a crime, then innocent implies a general innocence which a summoned creature can explain away with ease. That would include the PC's.

"You're a pure soul. You have nothing to worry about... But you did not say 'God bless you' when I sneezed."

[Jerell]

"Loki!"

"You're getting off light."

"LOKI!"

[Tor]

Cosmo-Knights can fire killer beams from their eyes while looking like a normal human.

Based on this: if any human looks at a Gargoyle, they may be a potential threat about to laser them in the eye. ENGAGE