Map Project: Land of the Damned (Version 1.4)

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Map Project: Land of the Damned (Version 1.4)

Unread post by Hotrod »

EDIT: Version 1.4 is finished! Take a look at it, and let me know what you think!


Fellow Palladium Fantasy fans,

At the request of Glen Evans, the author of our most-recent Palladium Fantasy sourcebook, I am taking on a new mapping project:

The Land of the Damned


My plan is to render the great prison of the Old Ones' minions in full color, providing as much canon-accurate material as I can fit in, while trying to convey the dark themes of this cursed, hellish prison of a region.

Here is a collage of the three source maps found in LoTD 1 and 2.
Here is my vector map zoomed in to the region. This will be my starting point for drawing the regional topography.

This map poses a number of interesting challenges. Just researching the two books is a tall order, to say nothing of the many references that are in the other books. This is where I'd really appreciate some help. No-one (other than Kevin) knows Palladium Fantasy like the denizens of this board.

If you have suggestions, corrections, or references that could help me make this map better, please let me know on this thread. I'm particularly interested in any "official" content from The Rifter and references to the Land of the Damned in other published Palladium Fantasy books. The biggest challenge for this project is a lack of source material. In 448 published pages dedicated this region, there are only 3 maps. The Northern Mountains are well-defined, the Great Rift is well defined, and the regional boundaries are defined. Unfortunately, that's about it.

My first order of business is drawing the basic topography. I can draw in the mountains with what I have. However, I need to define the climates of each region before I can properly render the lay of the land.

The Bleakness: As far as I can tell, there is no canon information on this region's climate. From the number of creatures living here, we can infer that it shouldn't be a barren wasteland. However, this may not be "bleak" enough.
The Broken Horn: I have no idea how to depict this region, but the proximity of the sea all around it, and a population of around a million or so giant minotaurs suggests to me that it should be relatively lush.
The Eternal Torment: is described as totally barren, with nothing naturally living here. I'll make it a dusty desert and give it an eroded look.
The Darkest Heart: A woodland, with the thickness and size of the trees increasing from west to east. There is a strong suggestion that strange dimensional forces could be at work here, making this region larger than it appears from the outside, but I'm going to dismiss that as hyperbole, partly because I don't see the point of making it that way, but mostly because I can't think of a way to map that.
The Great Rift: The canyon will be an interesting challenge, but most of this region is "The Blasted Lands" which I will depict as being fairly eroded, perhaps with some craters here and there to suggest the ongoing Minion War.

While I think on and research these climates, I'll get started on setting my pixel ratios and defining the coastlines in detail. More to follow in the next few days.
Last edited by Hotrod on Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:40 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by zyanitevp »

Good luck! Hope Glen is as happy with your maps as I have been!
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

He's Bizantium maps were amazing, especially the one on page 65 of Bizantium and the one on the back cover. Doing detail
and having it go to grey scale is difficult, I speak from first hand experience, which is why I'm leaving map construction to
someone who knows what they're doing and has the tools to do it.

My request for a LoD map is for personal use, namely for something I'm running at the Open House. Don't want to get people
thinking my next fantasy project is LoD3 (I'm sorry to say its not, I wish it was, but its not). I'm hoping his map keep the
fantasy iron hot and keeps a particular someone excited about working on such a book for next year.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by zyanitevp »

Reagren Wright wrote:He's Bizantium maps were amazing, especially the one on page 65 of Bizantium and the one on the back cover. Doing detail
and having it go to grey scale is difficult, I speak from first hand experience, which is why I'm leaving map construction to
someone who knows what they're doing and has the tools to do it.

My request for a LoD map is for personal use, namely for something I'm running at the Open House. Don't want to get people
thinking my next fantasy project is LoD3 (I'm sorry to say its not, I wish it was, but its not). I'm hoping his map keep the
fantasy iron hot and keeps a particular someone excited about working on such a book for next year.

I hope you are right! I am excited that the someone is running Fantasy again at the Open House!
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Reagren Wright wrote:He's Bizantium maps were amazing, especially the one on page 65 of Bizantium and the one on the back cover. Doing detail
and having it go to grey scale is difficult, I speak from first hand experience, which is why I'm leaving map construction to
someone who knows what they're doing and has the tools to do it.

My request for a LoD map is for personal use, namely for something I'm running at the Open House. Don't want to get people
thinking my next fantasy project is LoD3 (I'm sorry to say its not, I wish it was, but its not). I'm hoping his map keep the
fantasy iron hot and keeps a particular someone excited about working on such a book for next year.


Thank you! Just to clarify: I did not make the map on the back cover. That was the work of Tad Davis, aka Arsheesh, and was originally commissioned by zyanitevp. I use very similar techniques to what Tad used in that map, as I learned much of what I know of cartography from his tutorials. I take it as high praise that you thought I made the back cover map, too, but I can claim no credit there.

That said, I am the artist responsible for the map on page 65 of Bizantium, and thanks very much for the kind words!
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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:o Well in that case you both did a fantastic job :ok:
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Update: I've refined the coast and created a randomized terrain to use as a starting point. Here's a screenshot of the current version.

Drawing coastlines is a balancing act between the need for canon accuracy and the need for some realistic wiggle along the coast. In this case, I made the coast a bit more wiggly than the Shadow Coast, as it seemed appropriate for the Land of the Damned to have a more jagged coast.For the small corner in the northeast that overlapped with the Bizantium map, I was able to re-scale the coast outline I used in the Bizantium p65 map. I will work to keep both maps as consistent as possible.

The next step is working in the mountains.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Looking good :ok:
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Sir Dellis »

definitely like what you are doing here. Had to save a copy of the color version of the map of Bizantium. The darkscale version in the book is hard for my eyes to focus on. Wish that the color version had been included instead.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Yeah, the p65 Bizantium map printed a bit darker than I intended. It's a bit tough getting the brightness correct for printing, especially in greyscale, and it's doubly difficult when I can't run trial prints on the actual printer and adjust accordingly. Even the color version on my DeviantArt page isn't optimized for printing (though it's fine for a screen display). Please let me know how it comes out if you do decide to print it.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Sir Dellis »

Hotrod wrote:Yeah, the p65 Bizantium map printed a bit darker than I intended. It's a bit tough getting the brightness correct for printing, especially in greyscale, and it's doubly difficult when I can't run trial prints on the actual printer and adjust accordingly. Even the color version on my DeviantArt page isn't optimized for printing (though it's fine for a screen display). Please let me know how it comes out if you do decide to print it.


I will definitely let you know if I ever do print it. I will probably just look at it on my computer though to be honest.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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One other note: the versions I uploaded have a ley line marked that does not appear in the Bizantium book and is of very questionable canonicity.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Update: The mountains are placed, but not yet blended in. Here's the latest version.Since I had to fit 30 individual mountains in the Northern Mountains, plus two other mountain ranges, this part took longer than it usually does.

One cool feature from a nerdy cartographer point of view: I was able to re-scale and line up the parts of the Northern Mountains that showed up in the Bizantium map, so they'll be a precise match between the two maps.

Now I need to do a whole lot of sculpting, blend in the mountains, define the river valleys, draw in The Great Rift, and do a lot of other terrain work. This part will take a while.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by zyanitevp »

Hotrod wrote:Update: The mountains are placed, but not yet blended in. Here's the latest version.Since I had to fit 30 individual mountains in the Northern Mountains, plus two other mountain ranges, this part took longer than it usually does.

One cool feature from a nerdy cartographer point of view: I was able to re-scale and line up the parts of the Northern Mountains that showed up in the Bizantium map, so they'll be a precise match between the two maps.

Now I need to do a whole lot of sculpting, blend in the mountains, define the river valleys, draw in The Great Rift, and do a lot of other terrain work. This part will take a while.

You got less than a month.... get cracking....
Glen, I may have to change the schedule just so I can play in this game, lol....
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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So I got Dark Elf coming all the way from the UK coming to play and one of Palladium's Finest Megaverse
Ambassadors :o. I really hope everyone enjoys this adventure.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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That's quite an audience!

I'm working on the land sculpt. This part is a real grind, but it's where the topography really comes together. I've worked out some strategies for rendering the Great Rift, and I've worked in the paths of the rivers. The big challenge right now is grinding through the tedium of flattening the randomized hills where I don't want them, raising the low areas, et cetera. That's a particular challenge at the moment, as I just crashed and lost an hour of work. Man, I wish GIMP had an auto-save or recovery feature.

Once I get this sculpt done, I'll run it through an erosion program to make the rivers. I'll probably have to do this 3-4 times, with some tweaks to the land sculpt, to get the rivers to behave themselves and flow through their canon paths (or something close to it).

I'm traveling this week, which should present some opportunities to grind through this phase. Basically, I'm on it. It already looks better than the last upload I posted. Bar a major catastrophe with my computer or my life, this map should be ready in time. In any case, I'll bring it with me to Open House on Saturday, so you can crack the whip on me in person if I don't deliver on time.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Update: I've finished my initial land sculpt. Here's a screenshot of the current version.

Next step is to run it through an erosion program too get a natural river basin system and smooth the slopes down a bit. I'll likely have to do some revisions, and the Great Rift needs some refining, but I'm most of the way through shaping the topography. It's coming together.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Wow. Just wow.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Update: The land sculpt is done, and I've set in a basic, temperate color gradient. Here is the latest version. Although I intend to make further revisions to the bare geography at a later date, I have 2 weeks to make the requested portion of this map usable and presentable for Open House. In this case, perfection is the enemy of good enough.

My focus is now on the finishing touches: labels, icons, borders, that sort of thing. Since I don't want to spoil anything for those who are going to play Glen's game, I won't be sharing the Open House version of the map until his game is complete.

Known issues with the map:
-I'm not satisfied with the look of The Great Rift. I did an inner bevel, and it looks too "steep slope-ish" and not "cliff-ish".
-Ophid's Grasslands, The Blasted Lands, and The Eternal Torment are all hilly, which isn't the right terrain type.
-The color gradient isn't right for these regions, either.
-The Jerrigut and Rodogol passages in the Northern Mountains aren't quite as defined as I'd like. There are also a few spots in that range that look like they might be passable but should not be.
-I haven't done any water effects yet.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Quasi-Update: Here is the map that Glen Evans commissioned for his adventure that he ran at Open House. It was a lot of fun to make, and it was especially fun to play in that adventure (though I had to bug out early due to family commitments, alas). I hope the young, snobby, glory-hound prince character I played met a fitting end).

In addition to commissioning me to make this map, Glen put a ton of effort into the game, going so far as to include the actual adventuring contracts our characters had to sign, which our scholar (played by a real-life lawyer) re-negotiated. I loved how he, playing the king's closest advisor, put my snobby boy noble in his place, how he acted the crazy serpent chaser captain who sailed us to the Land of the Damned, and how he encouraged and enabled us to improvise each encounter's terms, while subtly guiding us in the right general direction. He also included secret background stories for each character, leading to some interesting dynamics within the group.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

My eyes are weary as I type this. A great time was held by all. My god this was the best adventure I ever ran.

Attention Prius Arius--- :badbad:

Prince Wilgan Vatatez has informed me that House Ducasian still owes 100,000 in back taxes and two ships for the
royal requirement. As such his exalted majesty has decided to take Prince Usus Ducasian (your father's) personal craft
(The Western Peace) whose value by the Office of Numbers has been placed at 1.9 million. As for the second requirement,
his exalted majesty has ordered the confiscation of your yacht (The Bountiful) that was suppose to sail in Bai Regatta.
The Office of Numbers has valued the ship at 950,000. HOWEVER, The Office of Numbers and the Admiralty would like to
question you why several wards where place on the port and starboard side of the ship and why a warlock named Talon Wind
was paid 100,000 to use some kind of spell called "Ride the Waves". Saida the Wise has chosen to represent you as your
King's Left Ear. HOWEVER, the tongues of elves is not to be trusted. :D
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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You may have cowed me before, but now I am a veteran who strode without fear into the Land of the Damned, and I will not be spoken down to like some common orc laborer! Saida the Wise could argue her way out of an Iceborn prison camp. I fear not your petty threats. Oh, and it's "Prince Arius", as you would know if you had been properly educated in a proper noble house. A prius sounds like some position in the Wolfen Empire; perhaps you've been spending too much time there?

Regardless, my gran-mummy shall not take this lightly, sir! You invoke her wrath at your peril, for both your house and his exalted majesty owe us far greater debts than a couple paltry million. I'll see you in court.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Thinyser »

I like the artistic aspect of you map. I would like more mountian detail, like in the source map. The main peaks visible and labeled, the hedgehog detailed as a cluster of equal peaks, etc.

There is a lot of detail in that map and yours would be awesome if it had the mountains like that but depicted more related to the info in the book, and to match your maps style.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Thinyser wrote:I like the artistic aspect of you map. I would like more mountian detail, like in the source map. The main peaks visible and labeled, the hedgehog detailed as a cluster of equal peaks, etc.

There is a lot of detail in that map and yours would be awesome if it had the mountains like that but depicted more related to the info in the book, and to match your maps style.


Thanks! I actually put in individual peaks to match the source map, but this version drowned out a lot of that detail with the bright white snowcaps. Since the emphasis of this map was The Bleakness, I didn't fine-tune the look of that mountain range. I'll do so for the final map. Even so, labeling the full mountain range may not work out due to space issues. I'll see what I can do.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Reagren Wright wrote:A great time was held by all. My god this was the best adventure I ever ran.

It was excellent. I loved playing Saida!

Reagren Wright wrote:Saida the Wise has chosen to represent you as your King's Left Ear. HOWEVER, the tongues of elves is not to be trusted. :D

Even dwarves say, "ye ken trust ye olven when timely thy retainer payeth".

Hotrod wrote:Saida the Wise could argue her way out of an Iceborn prison camp. I fear not your petty threats.

She is pretty sure she has a good shot at winning such argument. Fear has been benched ... if ... you can pay my fees, your highness.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by zyanitevp »

Hendrik wrote:
Reagren Wright wrote:A great time was held by all. My god this was the best adventure I ever ran.

It was excellent. I loved playing Saida!

Reagren Wright wrote:Saida the Wise has chosen to represent you as your King's Left Ear. HOWEVER, the tongues of elves is not to be trusted. :D

Even dwarves say, "ye ken trust ye olven when timely thy retainer payeth".

Hotrod wrote:Saida the Wise could argue her way out of an Iceborn prison camp. I fear not your petty threats.

She is pretty sure she has a good shot at winning such argument. Fear has been benched ... if ... you can pay my fees, your highness.

I still think it was a mistake letting the lawyer play the scholar, lol....
However, since I could not even finish the game due to duty calling, I cannot speak-
Truth be told, it was a dream group to play with, and wish I could have finished!!! Hendrik, you were amazing! As were all at the table.
My favorite part may have been the Prince trying to die, and consistently foiled in his attempts....
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Hotrod »

I SO should have been given the opportunity to row to my death at the hands of the Iceborn in a desperate rescue attempt. Algor would have smiled on such heroism. I loved playing the arrogant, aristocratic, suicidally brave merchant prince.

Out of character, I've been re-working the terrain, giving the Blasted Lands, Bleakness, and Ophid's Grasslands a smeary look, sharpening up the mountains a bit, and sharply defining the Jerrigut and Rodrogol passages in the Northern Mountains. I've got some more work to do before I publish the next draft, but it's coming along nicely.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

Looking forward to see how much more you can expand upon the region. New and improved maps would be awesome.

P.S. I also think if the arrogant noble had been able to stayed a bit longer he might have gotten his "death wish" by
the godling Thalassa or perhaps married off to any of her one hundred mermaids.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by The Dark Elf »

Hotrod wrote:I SO should have been given the opportunity to row to my death at the hands of the Iceborn in a desperate rescue attempt. Algor would have smiled on such heroism. I loved playing the arrogant, aristocratic, suicidally brave merchant prince.

Out of character, I've been re-working the terrain, giving the Blasted Lands, Bleakness, and Ophid's Grasslands a smeary look, sharpening up the mountains a bit, and sharply defining the Jerrigut and Rodrogol passages in the Northern Mountains. I've got some more work to do before I publish the next draft, but it's coming along nicely.


What about the Nipadel? lol
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Hotrod »

Update: The land sculpt is done (I think) and I've taken a hack at the climate zones. Here's the latest draft. Also, here is a version with a source map collage superimposed so you can compare it to the relevant canon maps. Please take a close look (try flipping back and forth between tabs) and let me know if you see any major discrepancies.

Changes:
+The Northern Mountains are now clearer and more faithful to the source material. The Jerrigut and Rodogol passages are now clearly visible, along with all the individual mountains.
+I smeared the terrain of the Blasted Lands, the Eternal Torment, and Ophid's Grasslands. The idea is to give these lands an eroded look due to their lack of heavy vegetation.
+I have created 3 climate zones: temperate (green-ish), prairie (yellow-ish) and dead (gray). I've also created a blue-ish arctic climate layer to accent the mountains a bit.

Still to do:

-Forests. They're a key part of the Darkest Heart. I don't know much about their coverage in The Bleakness or Broken Horn, but my guess is that both regions likely have some less-dense woods.
-Icons for significant locations. So far, all I have marked is the Citadel. The fallen elf kingdom should be included, as well as the undead cities in the Eternal Torment. I have a few concepts for these.
-Ley Lines and Nexuses (are there any in this region?)
-Borders
-Labels
-Finishing elements: a title, compass rose, scale, frame, legend.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by zyanitevp »

Hotrod wrote:Update: The land sculpt is done (I think) and I've taken a hack at the climate zones. Here's the latest draft. Also, here is a version with a source map collage superimposed so you can compare it to the relevant canon maps. Please take a close look (try flipping back and forth between tabs) and let me know if you see any major discrepancies.

Changes:
+The Northern Mountains are now clearer and more faithful to the source material. The Jerrigut and Rodogol passages are now clearly visible, along with all the individual mountains.
+I smeared the terrain of the Blasted Lands, the Eternal Torment, and Ophid's Grasslands. The idea is to give these lands an eroded look due to their lack of heavy vegetation.
+I have created 3 climate zones: temperate (green-ish), prairie (yellow-ish) and dead (gray). I've also created a blue-ish arctic climate layer to accent the mountains a bit.

Still to do:

-Forests. They're a key part of the Darkest Heart. I don't know much about their coverage in The Bleakness or Broken Horn, but my guess is that both regions likely have some less-dense woods.
-Icons for significant locations. So far, all I have marked is the Citadel. The fallen elf kingdom should be included, as well as the undead cities in the Eternal Torment. I have a few concepts for these.
-Ley Lines and Nexuses (are there any in this region?)
-Borders
-Labels
-Finishing elements: a title, compass rose, scale, frame, legend.


I would have to dig for the references, but I do recall many mentions of ley lines in the LOTD.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Hotrod »

Yeah, looks like I'll have to do a pretty thorough re-read of both LoTD books for more information on forests and key locations. The world map in Monsters and Animals is the only one I know of that actually depicts the forest coverage in the region, and it conflicts with the LoTD description of the Darkest Heart, showing it as mostly grasslands, when LoTD2 describes it as a pretty solid forest. Still, it gives me a starting point.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Jerell »

It's been a while, but I seem to remember Darkest Heart being thick forest. That was the one that was kind of a dimensionally warped and bigger on the inside than the land actually covered wasn't it? Not that there's any way I can think of to show that on a map... maybe some mysterious mist surrounding the forest? I'm not even sure that would look good...

If it's kind of dimensionally shifting, it might change anyways day to day? I wonder exactly how it works, I should probably read it again soon.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Darkest heart is a forest of varying thickness, thinner in the west and thicker in the east. The dimensional weirdness of it is not conclusive; the descriptions are anecdotal and refer to explorers getting lost. It may simply be some of the underlying enchantments or high concentrations of supernatural influences that warp those who would try to map it (happily, I seem to be immune). I've decided to interpret it that way, because otherwise it'd be like doing a floor plan of a room with a TARDIS in it and include the interior of the TARDIS.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Jerell »

haha, yeah, it would be like that.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Thinyser »

Hotrod wrote:Darkest heart is a forest of varying thickness, thinner in the west and thicker in the east. The dimensional weirdness of it is not conclusive; the descriptions are anecdotal and refer to explorers getting lost. It may simply be some of the underlying enchantments or high concentrations of supernatural influences that warp those who would try to map it (happily, I seem to be immune). I've decided to interpret it that way, because otherwise it'd be like doing a floor plan of a room with a TARDIS in it and include the interior of the TARDIS.

Well I would say that the physical description on p.146 of LotD2 is pretty cut and dried, but I see your point in doing a map inside a map as a lot of work.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Thinyser wrote:
Hotrod wrote:Darkest heart is a forest of varying thickness, thinner in the west and thicker in the east. The dimensional weirdness of it is not conclusive; the descriptions are anecdotal and refer to explorers getting lost. It may simply be some of the underlying enchantments or high concentrations of supernatural influences that warp those who would try to map it (happily, I seem to be immune). I've decided to interpret it that way, because otherwise it'd be like doing a floor plan of a room with a TARDIS in it and include the interior of the TARDIS.

Well I would say that the physical description on p.146 of LotD2 is pretty cut and dried, but I see your point in doing a map inside a map as a lot of work.


The opening sentence describing its seemingly-larger size reads, "The Darkest Heart is actually many times larger than it might appear." However, it goes on to say that no comprehensive survey has ever been done and that this interpretation is derived from the impressions of visitors and only a single account involving any measured distances (which was incomplete and unsuccessful). The opening sentence in this context seems more of a conclusion supported only by the very shaky evidence it offers later in the paragraph.

One of the frustrating things about the two LoTD books is how vague they are. Large sections describe rumors that may or may not be true, and very few specific locations get described in significant detail. I understand this choice from a game design standpoint; it gives GMs flexibility and serves as a useful hedge against overly-educated rule lawyer-type players. From a map-making standpoint, it makes this kind of project much more difficult. It's bad enough when major locations aren't actually located on a map or described in detail. This I can work with. Wild fluctuations in the basic dimensions upon which I build a map would put this project well outside my current mapping capabilities.

Even if I could do it, though, and even if I accepted that the Darkest Heart is a giant TARDIS and everything in that paragraph is true, the proportions described are wildly inconsistent, even by Palladium Fantasy's rough standards. The text describes the region as 200x400 miles, which is 80,000 square miles. The ranger who got lost was traveling through along a route that should have been 200 miles, and he recorded it as over 1000 miles with no end in sight. Assuming the distortion is proportional, that would make the local dimensions over 1,000x2,000 miles. Thus, the square mileage according to the only account which actually measured distances is in excess of 2 million square miles, or more than 25 TIMES the external dimensions of this region. Then the paragraph states that the interior is 3-4 times larger than a map would indicate.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Thinyser »

Hotrod wrote:
Thinyser wrote:
Hotrod wrote:Darkest heart is a forest of varying thickness, thinner in the west and thicker in the east. The dimensional weirdness of it is not conclusive; the descriptions are anecdotal and refer to explorers getting lost. It may simply be some of the underlying enchantments or high concentrations of supernatural influences that warp those who would try to map it (happily, I seem to be immune). I've decided to interpret it that way, because otherwise it'd be like doing a floor plan of a room with a TARDIS in it and include the interior of the TARDIS.

Well I would say that the physical description on p.146 of LotD2 is pretty cut and dried, but I see your point in doing a map inside a map as a lot of work.


The opening sentence describing its seemingly-larger size reads, "The Darkest Heart is actually many times larger than it might appear." However, it goes on to say that no comprehensive survey has ever been done and that this interpretation is derived from the impressions of visitors and only a single account involving any measured distances (which was incomplete and unsuccessful). The opening sentence in this context seems more of a conclusion supported only by the very shaky evidence it offers later in the paragraph.

One of the frustrating things about the two LoTD books is how vague they are. Large sections describe rumors that may or may not be true, and very few specific locations get described in significant detail. I understand this choice from a game design standpoint; it gives GMs flexibility and serves as a useful hedge against overly-educated rule lawyer-type players. From a map-making standpoint, it makes this kind of project much more difficult. It's bad enough when major locations aren't actually located on a map or described in detail. This I can work with. Wild fluctuations in the basic dimensions upon which I build a map would put this project well outside my current mapping capabilities.

Even if I could do it, though, and even if I accepted that the Darkest Heart is a giant TARDIS and everything in that paragraph is true, the proportions described are wildly inconsistent, even by Palladium Fantasy's rough standards. The text describes the region as 200x400 miles, which is 80,000 square miles. The ranger who got lost was traveling through along a route that should have been 200 miles, and he recorded it as over 1000 miles with no end in sight. Assuming the distortion is proportional, that would make the local dimensions over 1,000x2,000 miles. Thus, the square mileage according to the only account which actually measured distances is in excess of 2 million square miles, or more than 25 TIMES the external dimensions of this region. Then the paragraph states that the interior is 3-4 times larger than a map would indicate.

Good point. Chalk it up to magic influences. Say it's not actually "bigger" it's just all twisty trails and repeats landmarks and landforms so people get lost, and it therefore seems bigger.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Jerell »

You could treat it like the forest of Tanith, or you could make it bigger. 25 times sounds good to me. :twisted:

Beside the map showing the border of the forest from an outside frame of reference would be just fine. GMs (like my PF GM, I'm looking at you Grug) can go crazy as they like once someone gets inside. :bandit: I think how you plan to do it is the way to go.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Jerell wrote:You could treat it like the forest of Tanith, or you could make it bigger. 25 times sounds good to me. :twisted:

Beside the map showing the border of the forest from an outside frame of reference would be just fine. GMs (like my PF GM, I'm looking at you Grug) can go crazy as they like once someone gets inside. :bandit: I think how you plan to do it is the way to go.


Eastern Territory offers one possible alternative. It may be that the forest is under an enchantment that makes leaving it very difficult, just like getting to the Tree of Life in the Eastern Territory. If you fail a save, you think you're moving the way you want to, but you're really zig-zagging or marking time. Given that both areas are evil-infested forests associated with Old Ones, this seems thematically consistent.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Hotrod »

Minor update: I made an icon for the Cities of the Dead in the Eternal Torment last night. I hope you like it.

There are three such cities in the Eternal Torment, but I'm not sure of their locations; I need to read through those sections again.

I'm trying to come up with an icon concept for the City of Therendil; it's hard to think of a symbolic metaphor for a snobbish ivory tower culture that's failed its sworn duty. My best idea so far has been a sword stuck into a stone; they're useless, but they have the potential to be great again.

As for the Were-folk's gathering place, I think I'll go with a crescent moon. Most of the other icons should be fairly generic (lots of ruins, a fortress or two in the Blasted Lands, maybe some bull horns for minotaur settlements in Broken Horn).
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Hotrod wrote:I'm trying to come up with an icon concept for the City of Therendil; it's hard to think of a symbolic metaphor for a snobbish ivory tower culture that's failed its sworn duty. My best idea so far has been a sword stuck into a stone; they're useless, but they have the potential to be great again.


Hmmmmm... Snobbish culture, failed duties, useless with potential to be great again... The first two things that came to my mind were either a Donkey or Elephant. :lol: (I'm joking here gents, but it honestly was the first things that came to my mind. No offense, I just couldn't resist.)

But yeah, if I'm actually being serious, I think your idea of the sword in the stone works much better.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Thinyser »

Hotrod wrote:I'm trying to come up with an icon concept for the City of Therendil; it's hard to think of a symbolic metaphor for a snobbish ivory tower culture that's failed its sworn duty. My best idea so far has been a sword stuck into a stone; they're useless, but they have the potential to be great again.

Great idea. :ok:
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Update: I've drafted the icons. Here is an image of almost all of them (The ruins will be a repeat of the icon I used in the Bizantium map).

Got a couple of irons in the imagination-fire for what else to do with the map. I think I'll make a border similar to what I did for Glen Even's adventure map.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Love that sword in stone icon.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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I'm in the process of plugging in significant locations around the periphery of the Land of the Damned . I've got 2 Western Empire settlements and several Shadow Colonies. I'm looking into other significant locations, and I could use some help on the following:

The Devil's Mark: Where exactly is it? I can't find it on any of the source maps I've looked at. I'm not sure what kind of icon to use for it, either... something evil, for sure; maybe something out of the Diabolist section.

The Vault of Destiny/Palladium of Desires: I'm not sure what kind of icon to use for these. I'm thinking of just using the rune for magic forces. with some swirly effects (like what I did for the Citadel).

I seem to recall some sort of Centaur city in or around Ophid's Grasslands (most of which is on this map), but I don't remember where it is. Am I confusing it with the centaur city in Rifts, or is there such a reference?
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

Hotrod wrote:I'm in the process of plugging in significant locations around the periphery of the Land of the Damned . I've got 2 Western Empire settlements and several Shadow Colonies. I'm looking into other significant locations, and I could use some help on the following:

The Devil's Mark: Where exactly is it? I can't find it on any of the source maps I've looked at. I'm not sure what kind of icon to use for it, either... something evil, for sure; maybe something out of the Diabolist section.

The Vault of Destiny/Palladium of Desires: I'm not sure what kind of icon to use for these. I'm thinking of just using the rune for magic forces. with some swirly effects (like what I did for the Citadel).

I seem to recall some sort of Centaur city in or around Ophid's Grasslands (most of which is on this map), but I don't remember where it is. Am I confusing it with the centaur city in Rifts, or is there such a reference?


The Devil's Mark is 2000 feet radius nexus that radiate with magic and evil.

Whatever icons use use for the Vault and PoD will be fine.

The Centaur City (Wildwind) is in the southwestern woods of the Great Northern Wilderness near the edge of the Ophid Grasslands, so its not in the Northern Hinterlands.

All of this is in the Northern Hinterlands book. Keep on mapping man :ok: .
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

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Ah, missed that centaur city, but it looks like it's just off the map (along with a few other towns/cities). I did see the description of the Devil's Mark, but I was looking for location info. All I've found so far is a reference in Western Empire saying that it's north of one of the minor colony/province in Ophid's Grasslands. I guess I'll keep looking.

Oh, for some tool that would let me word-search the published canon.
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Thinyser »

Hotrod wrote:
Oh, for some tool that would let me word-search the published canon.


AMEN!
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Re: Map Project: Land of the Damned

Unread post by Reagren Wright »

I doubt that Wayne is ever going to give up that top secret program.
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