W.P. Spear vs W.P. Pole Arms vs W.P. Staff vs W.P. Forked

[Hotrod]

Anyone else see some blurred lines between these weapon types? The monk can use a spear as both a staff and a spear.

Are there other weapons that can be used with multiple weapon proficiencies? How do you tell when to use which proficiency?

Also, what's the difference between a Staff (with its W.P.) and a stave (which is covered by W.P. Blunt)?

[Cinos]

Forked was the one that crossed the line to me, it feels way over focused. It's like having a WP for short and long knives. And while it's fine for a game to do that (things like Super Spies), Palladium is much more general about its combat as a base line.

I can see a lot of leeway for allowing some polearms to be used as spears. I'm otherwise fine with focused use of a spear or polearm as a staff or paired weapon, to be the realm of the monk.

[Severus Snape]

To me, I see the need for only 2 WPs of the 4 mentioned in the title. They are:

WP Pole Arms
WP Staff

Forked weapons - such as a trident - and long spears would generally fall under the Pole Arms category due to their length and the bladed implements on at least one end. Staffs, staves, and short spears would fall under the Staff category for obvious reasons, even though the short spear has a bladed end.

To me, it's about length of the weapon here. A normal staff or short spear is 5-6 feet in length. But your average pole arm - a Lucerne hammer or a guisarme, for example - range from 7-10 feet in length. Because of the size differences, a different style of training is needed. Hence, the distinction between Staff and Pole Arm.

Now, I know that PB has all these different WP's to try and account for every type of weapon that may or may not be available in a campaign. And while that's all fine and dandy, I prefer to use broader groups than what is normally accounted for, while allowing players to narrow it down on their own. For example, using the WP Pole Arm category, one player could say "I'm going to specialize using the Trident", while another could say "Forget that - bec de corbin all the way". Same base category, same base bonuses. But with the fluffiness, they can customize their characters without us getting too much into "No, you have to have WP Trident for that" or "WP Blunt covers staves, not WP Staff".

[Library Ogre]

I see it slightly differently... you have different WPs because they can be used differently.

So, let's say you have WP Spear, and are using a military fork. You can use WP spear bonuses, since it's pretty much a spear. If you have WP Forked, though, you can instead choose to use WP Fork, and use its bonuses, which are supposed to take advantage of the differences in a forked weapon. They don't stack, but if Forked has an entangle or disarm bonus that Spear does not (I don't have the book in front of me), it would be advantageous to consider my fork a Fork, not a Spear.

[Cinos]

I see it slightly differently... you have different WPs because they can be used differently.

So, let's say you have WP Spear, and are using a military fork. You can use WP spear bonuses, since it's pretty much a spear. If you have WP Forked, though, you can instead choose to use WP Fork, and use its bonuses, which are supposed to take advantage of the differences in a forked weapon. They don't stack, but if Forked has an entangle or disarm bonus that Spear does not (I don't have the book in front of me), it would be advantageous to consider my fork a Fork, not a Spear.

My issue with that is that you can use most weapons in several ways. I can use a sword in a nearly purely thrusting manner, like a duelist, or in wide, cleaving archs, but both use sword, regardless if it's a foil or a great sword. Why don't, those have separate WPs if a poke and a slash in a pole weapon do? Much less a more exacting poke that is a trident disarm or entangle.

[Library Ogre]

I see it slightly differently... you have different WPs because they can be used differently.

So, let's say you have WP Spear, and are using a military fork. You can use WP spear bonuses, since it's pretty much a spear. If you have WP Forked, though, you can instead choose to use WP Fork, and use its bonuses, which are supposed to take advantage of the differences in a forked weapon. They don't stack, but if Forked has an entangle or disarm bonus that Spear does not (I don't have the book in front of me), it would be advantageous to consider my fork a Fork, not a Spear.

My issue with that is that you can use most weapons in several ways. I can use a sword in a nearly purely thrusting manner, like a duelist, or in wide, cleaving archs, but both use sword, regardless if it's a foil or a great sword. Why don't, those have separate WPs if a poke and a slash in a pole weapon do? Much less a more exacting poke that is a trident disarm or entangle.

Because Palladium's rules tend towards weird and inconsistent?

[Hotrod]

So the consensus I think I'm reading is: take the "different styles" approach and allow a player to apply the best bonus for a certain type of move (strike and damage, parry, thrown, and entangle).

This could give some benefit for taking multiple closely-related weapon proficiencies. Of course, nothing can compare with the battle axe for pure damage, but this could make melee player choices a bit more interesting.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Anyone else see some blurred lines between these weapon types? The monk can use a spear as both a staff and a spear.

Are there other weapons that can be used with multiple weapon proficiencies? How do you tell when to use which proficiency?

Also, what's the difference between a Staff (with its W.P.) and a stave (which is covered by W.P. Blunt)?

I agree that WP spear and WP staff seam to be close enough to have blurred line. There have been many times I have toyed with having a char weild a spear as if it was a staff. But not Pole arms not all forked are staff-like.

You might want to go to your local Renaissance fair to see the differences in real life.

[kiralon]

I thought wp staff was there for wizards to use and real men used wp blunt . Its probably worth looking to see which occ's can take which weapons because that could be the difference.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I recently made a char and gave him wp pole arm instead of wp spear because of the way it is written. Pole arm says you're trained to use the sharp end and the blunt end for strikes and the center for parrying attacks. This is exactly what I want the skill to do. Even though the character uses what is effectively a spear (long stick with a sharp end..used for fishing and killing large game).

[Razorwing]

I see it very differently than many of you seem to be... namely that these weapons are very different. A spear is weighted differently from a staff which is weighted differently than a pitchfork or a halberd... each can also vary greatly in length of the shaft too. In essence... they are each different weapons that require their own separate skill to use properly. Trying to use a staff when one is trained to use a polearm just isn't going to work any better than trying to use a polearm when one is trained to use a staff. The similarities between these weapons isn't big enough to let you use one with a different WP.

That many of these weapons are classified under the broad term Polearm in the equipment section (which frankly hasn't been updated since the 80s) only further exacerbates the confusion of which WP to use. One could even argue that one can benefit from using the WP- Blunt (meant to provide proficiency with club and hammers and similar small blunt weapons) when using a staff when the weapon has its own WP (a few even players even argued they could stack the bonuses).

The way I see it... if a weapon falls under multiple WPs then the one that is most like the weapon in question should be used and the others ignored.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I see it very differently than many of you seem to be... namely that these weapons are very different. A spear is weighted differently from a staff which is weighted differently than a pitchfork or a halberd... each can also vary greatly in length of the shaft too. In essence... they are each different weapons that require their own separate skill to use properly. Trying to use a staff when one is trained to use a polearm just isn't going to work any better than trying to use a polearm when one is trained to use a staff. The similarities between these weapons isn't big enough to let you use one with a different WP.

That many of these weapons are classified under the broad term Polearm in the equipment section (which frankly hasn't been updated since the 80s) only further exacerbates the confusion of which WP to use. One could even argue that one can benefit from using the WP- Blunt (meant to provide proficiency with club and hammers and similar small blunt weapons) when using a staff when the weapon has its own WP (a few even players even argued they could stack the bonuses).

The way I see it... if a weapon falls under multiple WPs then the one that is most like the weapon in question should be used and the others ignored.

You make a fine point Razorwing. May I ask then what is your recommendation for my char? His weapon of choice has a relatively long shaft (at least 5-6 feet as the char is 4'6"), the sharp end is used in a stabbing or slashing/raking motion (a pointed tip with serrated edge and possibly a slight crescent shape). I feel it is necessary that the shaft also be able to be used in parrying attacks and the blunt end be able to be used for not piercing/cutting attacks.

[Hotrod]

For Game of Thrones fans, I think the Prince Oberyn/Gregor the Mountain duel is a good example of this. Oberyn uses a spear for thrusting and slashing attacks, employing what I would associate with staff techniques, halberd techniques, and spear techniques.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

For Game of Thrones fans, I think the Prince Oberyn/Gregor the Mountain duel is a good example of this. Oberyn uses a spear for thrusting and slashing attacks, employing what I would associate with staff techniques, halberd techniques, and spear techniques.

Yes! That is exactly what he does with his 'huntin' stick'. Little bitty guy takes down game and opponents that are much larger than he is.

So which is the right Wp?

[smashed]

The lines between these weapon can be blurry at times. Some weapons can be used as a staff, spear, fork, and/or pole-arm. I find the best way to treat it is the same way Ninja and Super-spies treats the Martial Arts form. If you have a weapon that falls under the different WPs, you can have the multiple WPs, but you only use the bonuses from one at a time, and can only switch styles at the beginning of each melee round.

[Alrik Vas]

So which is the right Wp?

I would use WP Polearm, purely because the weapon is slightly curved and serrated. You likely aren't going to be throwing it anytime soon. I picture it kind of like a naginata with a serrated edge?

In any case, culture has a lot to do with weapon styles, the techniques developed are often for war and without a tremendous amount of flair. So, take a halberd vs a glaive. Even though you could call them both polearms, they both have different uses because of their shape, the era they were made and the purpose they were developed for.

What I'm saying is, if you're going to get into the specifics of how each weapon functions and determine what bonuses should apply, when they should apply and how they should be applied, we'll be writing our own system by the end of this discussion.

Palladium bundles it together, you decided RP wise what reflects from the numbers into the game world. Now take your +2 to strike/parry/throw and move along.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

I would use WP Polearm, purely because the weapon is slightly curved and serrated. You likely aren't going to be throwing it anytime soon. I picture it kind of like a naginata with a serrated edge?

Have you seen Alien VS Predator? Do you remember the spear made from the Xenomorph tail spike? Pretty much that.. thing.

Homemade spear/polearm made from the tooth/claw/mandible of some great big After the Bomb beastie. I'm thinking of maybe throwing it. Not long distance like a javelin or war spear. But more like, my target is just out of poking range and I want to stab it by surprise. (like spear fishing..but for bears and such)

http://s589.photobucket.com/user/Ithica ... 8.jpg.html

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/images/films/a ... eted14.jpg

Most likely something similar to one of these, securely lashed to a strong pole. http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/ ... 34wp5z.jpg

[drewkitty ~..~]

For Game of Thrones fans, I think the Prince Oberyn/Gregor the Mountain duel is a good example of this. Oberyn uses a spear for thrusting and slashing attacks, employing what I would associate with staff techniques, halberd techniques, and spear techniques.

Yes! That is exactly what he does with his 'huntin' stick'. Little bitty guy takes down game and opponents that are much larger than he is.

So which is the right Wp?

WP spear

WP pole arms are for hafted weapons who's hafts are in excess of 8 feet long and out to 22'ish feet.

[Tor]

WP Trident
WP Forked
WP Spear
WP Polearm

I have seen all of these applied to tridents.

I say stack'm all because swords get too much love in Palladium. The sweet bonuses will help to make up for the shortage of rune tridents compared to the dozens of rune swords.

[kiralon]

For Game of Thrones fans, I think the Prince Oberyn/Gregor the Mountain duel is a good example of this. Oberyn uses a spear for thrusting and slashing attacks, employing what I would associate with staff techniques, halberd techniques, and spear techniques.

Yes! That is exactly what he does with his 'huntin' stick'. Little bitty guy takes down game and opponents that are much larger than he is.

So which is the right Wp?

WP spear

WP pole arms are for hafted weapons who's hafts are in excess of 8 feet long and out to 22'ish feet.

except that the long spear is 7-10ft and would definitely be in the wp spear category, it being a spear and all. I tend to think the pole arms are the can opener types and the spears are mostly just a pointy bit attached to a stick. forks and tridents are 2 pointy bits and staffs are no pointy bits.
There is probably too much separation but that what happens when the weapons list is 30+ years old and the only change made to it was damage

[pblackcrow]

As I said here...viewtopic.php?f=5&t=144852 I can see WP staff and WP spear being combined. I can see forked and trident combined. However, I can't see pole arm and spear (because of my time in the SCA) or spear and forked. In martial arts, I have worked with them all. Tridents and forked weapons can be used as a stabbing or as sais...So, a little extra training is required. True, someone with pole arm maybe able to use either staff or spear, but only after some time. As could a some with WP trident know how to use a spear and staff after about 3-5 days of practice. Though, I do feel that if you can weld a mace "blunt weapon" you can weld an ax, a hammer, and pick ax depending on the mace you've selected.

[kiralon]

There is also the training for fighting in a group, staff and spear are very different weapons when fighting as a squad.

[pblackcrow]

You would be surprised.

[kiralon]

You would be surprised.

I would be, spears are 1 or 2 handed weapons, where a staff is mostly 2handed. 1 on 1 the fight between a staff and a spear can look similar, but staffs aren't used in ranks, especially with shields. Strikes with a spear tend to focus on the pointy bit. Strikes from a staff are mostly bludgeoning. Spears can be used from horseback. The light spear can be thrown. The Pilum (a common spear used in roman times) had 1/3 of the shaft iron with a hardened point and wooden haft so that if you threw your spear it would bend so it couldn't be thrown back.
So yes it would surprise me

[Hotrod]

You would be surprised.

I would be, spears are 1 or 2 handed weapons, where a staff is mostly 2handed. 1 on 1 the fight between a staff and a spear can look similar, but staffs aren't used in ranks, especially with shields. Strikes with a spear tend to focus on the pointy bit. Strikes from a staff are mostly bludgeoning. Spears can be used from horseback. The light spear can be thrown. The Pilum (a common spear used in roman times) had 1/3 of the shaft iron with a hardened point and wooden haft so that if you threw your spear it would bend so it couldn't be thrown back.
So yes it would surprise me

Interesting. In a tight phalanx, you're quite correct that swinging long weapons around was probably a bad idea. However, this restriction could go right out the window on broken ground, assaulting or defending fortifications, or in a looser formation. Also, I reckon that a staff could be used in close quarters, focusing on thrusting jabs and short, controlled sweeps. A spear would be better, to be sure, but a staff would be better than nothing in a pinch.

On a different tack, could one use a trident with W.P. Spear? And seriously, what is the difference between a staff (using W.P. staff) and a stave (using W.P. Blunt)?

[pblackcrow]

On a different tack, could one use a trident with W.P. Spear? And seriously, what is the difference between a staff (using W.P. staff) and a stave (using W.P. Blunt)?

Not to its full potential, no. But a spear could be used with WP trident with a bit of practice. As well as sais.

I think they possibly mean short staff...under 4'...and usually taken with pared weapons. But as far as why the separated them is beyond me!

[kiralon]

You would be surprised.

I would be, spears are 1 or 2 handed weapons, where a staff is mostly 2handed. 1 on 1 the fight between a staff and a spear can look similar, but staffs aren't used in ranks, especially with shields. Strikes with a spear tend to focus on the pointy bit. Strikes from a staff are mostly bludgeoning. Spears can be used from horseback. The light spear can be thrown. The Pilum (a common spear used in roman times) had 1/3 of the shaft iron with a hardened point and wooden haft so that if you threw your spear it would bend so it couldn't be thrown back.
So yes it would surprise me

Interesting. In a tight phalanx, you're quite correct that swinging long weapons around was probably a bad idea. However, this restriction could go right out the window on broken ground, assaulting or defending fortifications, or in a looser formation. Also, I reckon that a staff could be used in close quarters, focusing on thrusting jabs and short, controlled sweeps. A spear would be better, to be sure, but a staff would be better than nothing in a pinch.

On a different tack, could one use a trident with W.P. Spear? And seriously, what is the difference between a staff (using W.P. staff) and a stave (using W.P. Blunt)?

A staff is a lot better than nothing in a pinch, and generally if the formation was broken or when things got real close they would discard the spear and use a shortsword type weapon.
Staves is the group in the book so it should be wp stave and as the trident is in the spear group so I would allow it (even if it wasn't I would), and I have allowed people to use wp blunt to use a staff. The wp forked weapons is just the forked weapons group, which as pointed out by pblackcrow also allows you to use sai and likely the main gauche (parrying dagger) so its just a slightly different group of weapons to train in.

[The Ruiner]

I realize this discussion is focused on long spear/ pole arm type weapons, but isn't a pair of Sai governed by W.P. Forked also?

[pblackcrow]

No, technically they're covered under knives...At least that's how I have always done it.

[Tyberius]

I feel like the short answer here is that: There is a lot of overlap.

[kiralon]

No, technically they're covered under knives...At least that's how I have always done it.

Sai is mentioned as one of the weapons covered by forked.

[Lodisy]

You make a fine point, Razorwing. However, I feel like it is somewhat invalidated by the Sword WP. The differences between a broadsword, a foil, a gladius, a swordbreaker and a katana are pretty major too, but they are all covered with one WP. While there is some overlap, there is at least as big a difference between those swords as there are between those pole weapons.

My thought is that if there are several WP for different types of pole weapons, there should be different proficiencies for different types of swords; or there should only be one for each set. It seems only equitable.