Bards, Palladins, and others I've forgotten

[Aaryq]

Howdy, folks.
I was putting together a few PFRPG Characters for a possible upcoming new campaign and I have to vent. Let me preface by saying that I was first started in the early 90's playing the 1st edition of another popular fantasy game so maybe I was spoiled there but what's the point of playing a Bard or a Palladin?

Bards in many games have additional abilities to make them appealing. They can use song to help set a mood, maybe give people bonuses, or penalties to bad guys. Why can't PFRPG Bards be given psionics, magic, or other special abilities to make them actually useful in a party? I know that for roleplay they're set up quite nicely, but that's pretty much all they're good for. They don't have enough skills to be a skills-heavy well-rounded character. They don't have enough abilities on the combat-side of the house to be a real contender for anything. They're just not useful unless you have a large party.

What about Palladins? They're knights with a special attack. Why not make your Palladins more Palladin-like...like from other RPG's. Give them the ability to severely murder undead or something like that. Maybe throw in a few god-given special abilities that don't interfere with them wearing armour. Toss out the whole nobility thing to make the Knight still kind of relevant. Change the rules for a mount to give them a psionic link with their mount...I don't know. I'm spitballing here.

Anyone done any house rules to make certain OCC's more fun without throwing off the balance of your game?

I'd like to borrow from your experiences first before digging into my own. All I did for now was make a bard with Major Psionics. It was kind of a dice fudging event but I will notify the GM of what I have done prior to bringing in the Character

[kiralon]

Howdy, folks.
I was putting together a few PFRPG Characters for a possible upcoming new campaign and I have to vent. Let me preface by saying that I was first started in the early 90's playing the 1st edition of another popular fantasy game so maybe I was spoiled there but what's the point of playing a Bard or a Palladin?

Bards in many games have additional abilities to make them appealing. They can use song to help set a mood, maybe give people bonuses, or penalties to bad guys. Why can't PFRPG Bards be given psionics, magic, or other special abilities to make them actually useful in a party? I know that for roleplay they're set up quite nicely, but that's pretty much all they're good for. They don't have enough skills to be a skills-heavy well-rounded character. They don't have enough abilities on the combat-side of the house to be a real contender for anything. They're just not useful unless you have a large party.

What about Palladins? They're knights with a special attack. Why not make your Palladins more Palladin-like...like from other RPG's. Give them the ability to severely murder undead or something like that. Maybe throw in a few god-given special abilities that don't interfere with them wearing armour. Toss out the whole nobility thing to make the Knight still kind of relevant. Change the rules for a mount to give them a psionic link with their mount...I don't know. I'm spitballing here.

Anyone done any house rules to make certain OCC's more fun without throwing off the balance of your game?

I'd like to borrow from your experiences first before digging into my own. All I did for now was make a bard with Major Psionics. It was kind of a dice fudging event but I will notify the GM of what I have done prior to bringing in the Character

Originally I let the bard take Juggling, which made a bit of a difference, but then I changed things so that the bards could start affiliated to a guild and they could start with a magic instrument, and they could play x magic songs per day per level and these magic songs could do spell like abilities nicked out of rolemaster and the bards tale series. Gottadamarung anybody !.

The paladin I plit his hth with a divine touch hth, so he got basically hth merc + divine bonuses, so if they lose their way they are basically mercs, but whilst still holy are tougher than a normal paladin.

Knights get hth bonuses that affect their ar and damage reductions on how much damage their armour takes and trained horses

[Neferkem]

Howdy, folks.
I was putting together a few PFRPG Characters for a possible upcoming new campaign and I have to vent. Let me preface by saying that I was first started in the early 90's playing the 1st edition of another popular fantasy game so maybe I was spoiled there but what's the point of playing a Bard or a Palladin?

Bards in many games have additional abilities to make them appealing. They can use song to help set a mood, maybe give people bonuses, or penalties to bad guys. Why can't PFRPG Bards be given psionics, magic, or other special abilities to make them actually useful in a party? I know that for roleplay they're set up quite nicely, but that's pretty much all they're good for. They don't have enough skills to be a skills-heavy well-rounded character. They don't have enough abilities on the combat-side of the house to be a real contender for anything. They're just not useful unless you have a large party.

What about Palladins? They're knights with a special attack. Why not make your Palladins more Palladin-like...like from other RPG's. Give them the ability to severely murder undead or something like that. Maybe throw in a few god-given special abilities that don't interfere with them wearing armour. Toss out the whole nobility thing to make the Knight still kind of relevant. Change the rules for a mount to give them a psionic link with their mount...I don't know. I'm spitballing here.

Anyone done any house rules to make certain OCC's more fun without throwing off the balance of your game?

I'd like to borrow from your experiences first before digging into my own. All I did for now was make a bard with Major Psionics. It was kind of a dice fudging event but I will notify the GM of what I have done prior to bringing in the Character

One suggestion I have for paladin's would be to use the Templar Dark Slayers from the Nightbane: Shadows of Light(p.94-p.97) as a pattern for Palladins in Palladium Fantasy. When it comes to Bards you might want to look up Song Mage from Rifter 18 (pg.47-53), they are a pretty good fit for bards.

[Library Ogre]

Eh. If you want to make a more "traditional" bard or palladin, make the class, or borrow it from elsewhere. Make a Palladin-like class by making a Psi-healer-type with more martial skills (you could even do this with a core palladin, that was a Major psychic focusing on healing powers, perhaps talking with your GM to sacrifice your "background skills" for that). Give the bard-like some spells, or maybe some psionics. Or make it a special priest class only available to a certain god's followers. There's lots of options.

Most of PF's core Man-at-Arms classes suffer from pairing... there are usually two versions, one slightly different than the other, and called two classes. Palladins are Knights with a special attack. Soldiers are Mercenary Fighters with backing. Longbowmen are Rangers who specialized in bows. Thieves and Assassins fill similar, though not identical, roles. There's little of what I would consider the traditional "mixed" classes... there's not really a warrior-priest type, nor a warrior-wizard, nor a magic-heavy priest, in the core PFRPG book.

Those classes can be created; you could probably do well to write them up and submit them to the Rifter (though I'd suggest avoiding the phrase "like other games", and just present it as your own idea; everyone will KNOW, but keep it on the DL).

[Hotrod]

Rifts: England has a bard class called the Filidh. They get some respectable fighting skills as well as some mystic herbology (restricted to those providing sensing powers or protecting from the supernatural). If your GM allows you to make and use natural drugs and toxins to boot (great for healing, buffs, and disabling bad guys), you've got a pretty versatile and useful character.

It's even ok by canon to do this. At the end of the P2E warlock magic section, it specifically mentions mystic herbology from Rifts England as a good one to import into Palladium Fantasy, and the Western Empire fluff strongly supports the presence of mystical herbology in the setting.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Bards can have psionics.....each and every char gets a roll for the random Psionics. Ending up, if they get any, Minor or Major psions.
If they are a Half-Wizard then they will have what spells the char learned before deciding magic as a way of life was not for them.
Or if your GM is willing...give them a super power or have them a NightSpawn/-Bane

You want a Knight with magic powers....there is the Half-Wizard again that is an option....or you can import the mystic knight class w/o the evil bits of the class text and the magic powers granted powers from the char's deity.
The one mod I might do to the current Pal.class powers is to add a "+1d6/ additional level" to the anti SN attack stats text.

The question is why you want to make PFRPG into Dungeons and Dragons? the PB system is suppose to be different from D&D. Even then you don't need to be changing the whole class to empower your chars with something more.

Spoiler:

[aside]Yep, I just bought 5th ed PH and just about every <descriptive adverb> class has some sort of magic at their disposal. Even the Fighters and Barbarians have magic options in them.[/aside]

[Lukterran]

Why do bards suck? Well because it is only in D&D type fiction that bards were ever considered to be anything more than storytellers or musicians.

There isn't anything special about being a bard. He is just an entertainer. Now if you want to give your bard a magic harp and psionics and a few magical spells more power to you. Palladium Fantasy bards are based off bards from medieval earth and not from D&D lore.

[wodens_blade]

It seems to me that you are upset because the Bard and Paladin don’t match up to the class in D&D? Why not just play it in that system then? me personally i like the Palladium approach better, your Bard could have psionics...but i don’t believe EVERY bard OCC should be able to effect moods with magic songs. it’s an entertainer OCC.

[pblackcrow]

WHAT??? Bards...Useless? I don't bloody think so!!! Bards were the "sex symbols" of the day...Source of entertainment, news, culture, sophistication, manners, etiquette, and elocution...Skilled in conversation, story telling, barter, flirtation, public speaking, music, and the use of weapons. The ones who was welcomed almost anywhere due to their wit and refinement. They were in-the-know on all the latest gossip, rumors, current upheavals, and basically general knowledge of several cities and areas or could find out!

The ink quill is mightier then 10,000 swords. They can do with a mere song...Help or hinder trade, help or hinder a church, topple a kingdom or make it seam like heaven, start or stop an uprising or revolt before it gets started, etc. So, in a way, their songs are magical. They can plant seeds through music. Useless, indeed?! You have just got to learn how to play one.

[Soldier of Od]

I've never played D&D so I was surprised to hear that a bard even has magic powers in that game. Seems a bit peculiar to me. A bard is a bard, and doesn't need to be made into anything more in my opinion.

However, a mage who uses music in his incantations is a fine idea. There is already an (unofficial) version of this in Palladium Fantasy - take a look at the Song Mage in Rifter 18 if you can. That should be exactly what you are after.

[Library Ogre]

I've never played D&D so I was surprised to hear that a bard even has magic powers in that game. Seems a bit peculiar to me. A bard is a bard, and doesn't need to be made into anything more in my opinion.

The earliest RPG bards (from The Strategic Review) had spells like a wizard; AD&D 1e bards had druidic abilities, and they went back to wizard magic from 2e onwards. Palladium's bards being magicless are somewhat of an outlier.

[MADMANMIKE]

I've never played D&D so I was surprised to hear that a bard even has magic powers in that game. Seems a bit peculiar to me. A bard is a bard, and doesn't need to be made into anything more in my opinion.

The earliest RPG bards (from The Strategic Review) had spells like a wizard; AD&D 1e bards had druidic abilities, and they went back to wizard magic from 2e onwards. Palladium's bards being magicless are somewhat of an outlier.

Yeah, I'm with Soldier of Od. PF was my first dive into the gaming pool, and I like the class as is. It's a cool Role-Playing opportunity. You don't need special abilities to get caught up in an adventure. They've got plenty of skill selections that can be used to make a useful adventurer.

[Hotrod]

We live in a world where we can get news, high-quality music, and shows with a few taps on a device. Even our grandparents grew up in a world of mail, telephones, radios, record players, and telegraphs. It's hard to appreciate for us the kind of role that a bard could play, because it's hard for us to imagine a world where we don't have those things.

Imagine a world without internet, TV, phones, or mail. You work in a menial job where the most musical thing you hear all day is the toot of an ox as it farts in your general direction. Most days, you see the same people over and over, and you already know their lives' stories. You can't read or write, and even if you could, books are an expensive luxury that you probably can't afford.

Then a travelling bard comes to town. This is a professional musician, storyteller, news anchor, and comedian rolled into one. Your village packs into a barn to catch the show. Just listening to him catches you up on the news, introduces you to songs you'll be humming for weeks to come, and gives you an excuse to dance with that seamstress you've had a crush on for the last month. Sure, you'll just go back to plowing your field behind the same flatulent ox the next day, but that bard gives you a glimpse into a world far larger than your little hamlet.

It's easy to dismiss the bard OCC for its lack of powers and fighting ability, but it's hard to put a number on a bard's ability to connect communities and give people in an ugly world an hour or two of something beautiful and inspiring. Even in a bigger city, that's a precious thing.

[pblackcrow]

We live in a world where we can get news, high-quality music, and shows with a few taps on a device. Even our grandparents grew up in a world of mail, telephones, radios, record players, and telegraphs. It's hard to appreciate for us the kind of role that a bard could play, because it's hard for us to imagine a world where we don't have those things.

Imagine a world without internet, TV, phones, or mail. You work in a menial job where the most musical thing you hear all day is the toot of an ox as it farts in your general direction. Most days, you see the same people over and over, and you already know their lives' stories. You can't read or write, and even if you could, books are an expensive luxury that you probably can't afford.

Then a travelling bard comes to town. This is a professional musician, storyteller, news anchor, and comedian rolled into one. Your village packs into a barn to catch the show. Just listening to him catches you up on the news, introduces you to songs you'll be humming for weeks to come, and gives you an excuse to dance with that seamstress you've had a crush on for the last month. Sure, you'll just go back to plowing your field behind the same flatulent ox the next day, but that bard gives you a glimpse into a world far larger than your little hamlet.

It's easy to dismiss the bard OCC for its lack of powers and fighting ability, but it's hard to put a number on a bard's ability to connect communities and give people in an ugly world an hour or two of something beautiful and inspiring. Even in a bigger city, that's a precious thing.

Exactly right. Well said!

[Lukterran]

In a world where a person can call down a bolt of lightning to explode a bards head for something that the bard said that he didn't like, bards do tend to be behind on the power curve a bit. So I understand the want to give the bards some more abilities to make them more appealing.

[eliakon]

In a world where a person can call down a bolt of lightning to explode a bards head for something that the bard said that he didn't like, bards do tend to be behind on the power curve a bit. So I understand the want to give the bards some more abilities to make them more appealing.

Think of all the power that is wielded by social media, 'news commentators', talk show hosts, stars, actors, and entertainers today....
Now put all of that in a PCs hands.
THATS a bard.
You have the power to manipulate society in ways that no number of 6die lightning bolts is going to match. Who cares if your the greatest wizard since Lictalon....if every story about you is told to howls of laughter and ribald jokes.

[Library Ogre]

Really, it comes down to communication technologies. The bard is one of the big ones in the world, but I think some of that comes from Palladium not really thinking through the uses of some of their common magics. Magic Pigeon is a simple way to quickly move messages across the continent, and one that could easily be disseminated into a communications network; the main difficulty would be payment for moving messages across the network.

[eliakon]

Really, it comes down to communication technologies. The bard is one of the big ones in the world, but I think some of that comes from Palladium not really thinking through the uses of some of their common magics. Magic Pigeon is a simple way to quickly move messages across the continent, and one that could easily be disseminated into a communications network; the main difficulty would be payment for moving messages across the network.

I imagine it is used. But at best, its going to get things up to the level of a 'good postal service' .... with every letter written on flash paper. It can carry a message, but its verbal, and only cycles once. So you can't archive it, you cant keep it, and you cant send visual information.

[Library Ogre]

Really, it comes down to communication technologies. The bard is one of the big ones in the world, but I think some of that comes from Palladium not really thinking through the uses of some of their common magics. Magic Pigeon is a simple way to quickly move messages across the continent, and one that could easily be disseminated into a communications network; the main difficulty would be payment for moving messages across the network.

I imagine it is used. But at best, its going to get things up to the level of a 'good postal service' .... with every letter written on flash paper. It can carry a message, but its verbal, and only cycles once. So you can't archive it, you cant keep it, and you cant send visual information.

Sure you can; Magic Pigeon allows the sending of written messages, as well as the short verbal messages. Write your letter, send it by Magic Pigeon to a faraway city, and the person at that office takes responsibility for moving it to your target, or holding it until your target arrives. To avoid the payment problem I mentioned, you might go with double payments... you pay the mage who sent the message, and the other person pays on receipt.

[eliakon]

Really, it comes down to communication technologies. The bard is one of the big ones in the world, but I think some of that comes from Palladium not really thinking through the uses of some of their common magics. Magic Pigeon is a simple way to quickly move messages across the continent, and one that could easily be disseminated into a communications network; the main difficulty would be payment for moving messages across the network.

I imagine it is used. But at best, its going to get things up to the level of a 'good postal service' .... with every letter written on flash paper. It can carry a message, but its verbal, and only cycles once. So you can't archive it, you cant keep it, and you cant send visual information.

Sure you can; Magic Pigeon allows the sending of written messages, as well as the short verbal messages. Write your letter, send it by Magic Pigeon to a faraway city, and the person at that office takes responsibility for moving it to your target, or holding it until your target arrives. To avoid the payment problem I mentioned, you might go with double payments... you pay the mage who sent the message, and the other person pays on receipt.

There is a rather, to be polite, large question on the nature of this, and what exactly it means. The spell is not well written, and until such time as someone makes some official clarification there is a rather large dispute on what the spell can, and can not, actually do.
I don't really want to threadjack this thread with a discussion on the mechanics of the Magic Pigeon spell (especially as this has been done several times) but I will say that it has been done enough to mean that allowing it (or disallowing it) will require a house rule from a GM

[kiralon]

That still wont stop an ogre pulling your arms of, sticking em in your ears and using you as a coat hangar, which an adventuring bard is more likely to need to get out of, as an npc or out of adventure stuff the using the pen to stab the ego of your enemy is fine, but the way bards I have dm'd have helped most is getting better receptions at places, earning money when there is little in the party, and being the trap detector (to the point that I made a perk for bards). I did have one that did go around spreading stories and things which did get them noticed, was no help in getting them out of trouble they were in, saying that it was first ed and they could only have hth non men at arms, second ed ones are a little more useful as they can fight better, and an adventurer will always get into fights.

This perk has been used multiple times by bards I have played, and mostly for the reason described below

Trap Magnet
I wonder what’s in here, what the ??? ahcrapahcrapcrapahcrapahcrapahcrapahcrapahcrap noooooooooooooooooooooooooo splurk gurgle…drip…drip…drip…drip…drip…drip.

Reqs: Bard
Rank 1
I have a cousin, he looks just like me, except less annoying, just kidding - well about the less annoying anyway. You can use your cousin as an instant replacement for your character.
Rank 2
I have another cousin, he’s even more useful then me. Giggle snort.
Rank 3
I have yet another cousin, he looks just like me in every respect as well, his name is even the same as mine, here’s his number. Hehehe
And so on and so forth.

[pblackcrow]

Actually, I have found a way to do it for my armies. Have an alchemists make message journals that are linked to one or more books. That away one can see use a crystal ball and use a journal to communicate with the attacking troops. That is just one way of doing it. True, they have to be on a ley line to both send and receive stuff.

[Library Ogre]

Actually, I have found a way to do it for my armies. Have an alchemists make message journals that are linked to one or more books. That away one can see use a crystal ball and use a journal to communicate with the attacking troops. That is just one way of doing it. True, they have to be on a ley line to both send and receive stuff.

I haven't checked the specifics, but I was thinking of a summoner doing it with a circle of all-seeing.

[Razorwing]

Magic is simply too scarce to make an effective replacement for a telecommunications network in Palladium.

Perhaps during the height of the Elven and Dwarven Empires, it was common enough to be used in such a way... but in the current setting, there aren't enough wizards and other practitioners of magic who would be willing to do such menial work. Sure, they can be persuaded to do so on occasion... for the right price (a price that is steep enough to discourage such activities except for the right reasons).

Let's face it... magic in the Palladium world on the whole is in stark decline compared to worlds like Rifts Earth where it is on the rise. Compared to past ages on Palladium... the sum knowledge of all magic users would be a mere drop in an ocean of what was once known. Even the Elves and Dwarves once controlled more magic in their empires than is currently available to the rest of the Palladium world... and that was only a fraction of what was once available during the Time of a Thousand Magics.

Far too many people seem to think that just because they can have an entire PC party of Wizards (of various sorts) that magic is as common as dirt in Palladium. It isn't. There isn't a Wizard living on every block in a city or an Alchemist shop on every corner... there isn't even a Wizard living in every village. True, there may be a fair number of Wizards (a term I am using to refer to anyone with paranormal abilities such as magic and psionics), but they are a mere fraction of a percent of the population in most cases. Most often, Wizards tend to be people of note, and thus get a write-up in a game book on a particular area or city. This doesn't mean that Wizards are common just because a dozen or so have stats presented in the write-up of a given city... it just means that these individuals are somewhat important... as most wizards are likely to be.

No... magic in Palladium is unlikely to replace the need for Bards to spread news, stories and songs... or even come close to the telecommunication network we have in the real world. At one time it may have been possible... but not anymore... at least not for some time. Those who could do so just don't have the interest to do so... and those who have the desire can't force those with the ability to do so. The noble who constantly pesters a wizard to send messages around a city is likely to be... creatively discouraged from bothering the wizard for such trivial things... and the tales Bards will tell of such an event will keep people entertained for weeks... if not years.