Guys, I need an answer...

[pblackcrow]

Can someone flying on a pegasus above an antimagic cloud negate it using another antimagic cloud spell?

IGNORE THIS QUESTION! Read on!

[Library Ogre]

I would say probably not.

[pblackcrow]

I am running it.

Josh asks "Not even if the level of the 2nd caster is higher then the level of the spell scroll that the first caster used to cast the initial cloud?"

Should I just have them roll a d100 to see? We are in the middle of a 3 player army battle WITH MINIS.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Simple answers are: Yes (fly) & No (negate).

[Library Ogre]

I am running it.

Josh asks "Not even if the level of the 2nd caster is higher then the level of the spell scroll that the first caster used to cast the initial cloud?"

Should I just have them roll a d100 to see? We are in the middle of a 3 player army battle WITH MINIS.

Not even, IMO. Anti-Magic cloud is remarkably resistant to other attempts to get rid of it.

[The Beast]

I am running it.

Josh asks "Not even if the level of the 2nd caster is higher then the level of the spell scroll that the first caster used to cast the initial cloud?"

Should I just have them roll a d100 to see? We are in the middle of a 3 player army battle WITH MINIS.

AMC can't be negated magically, so at best you'd prevent the other mage from casting spells. Main thing is that the second mage still has to make the save due to the fact he's casting into an already active AMC.

[pblackcrow]

I just had them roll, giving a slight bonus to the second caster...but the 1st one won any 2 out of 3 rolls. And the cloud stayed in effect. Of course the neither one was able to use magic.

This brought up a few questions to my mind...for a group casting and/or ritual castings involving other mages contributing PPE to the spell...Would it be only one person who wouldn't be effected by the spell or would it be everyone?

[Library Ogre]

I'd say that all the ones involved in the ritual would have the immunity.

[Lukterran]

One anti-magic cloud will not negate another.

[kiralon]

If the area effect of the second antimagic cloud is in the first ones area id have the wizard casting the second one save as if he was standing in the cloud, if he saves the second cloud is at half strength, save for a quarter, if he fails his save the spell fails. It doesn't have anything special about it to stop it from being effected by another cloud, its just another level 11 spell. Its the way I do it if part of a wall of fire goes into an antimagic cloud

[Goliath Strongarm]

Personally, I'd say that *IF* mage2 was able to even get his spell off, then the two AMCs would actually stack, making EVERYONE who was casting spells have to save twice, except the two mages who made AMCs, who would only have to save once...

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Anti-magic cloud to cancel out an anti-magic cloud?!!!


Dude, that's like trying to divide by 0. You don't want to be doing that.

[Lukterran]

First, altitude was not supposed to have anything to do with Anti-Magic Cloud. It doesn't matter whos magic cloud is higher up in altitude than the other persons. The spell only gives a two-dimensional radius on is range and area of effect. It doesn't tell you how high up in the air the cloud appears.

So if the 2nd mage was able to still cast a cloud it wouldn't negate the 1st clouds effect but instead stack, just as Goliath said.

Just the same way that one mystic energy drain ward will not negate another.

[Glistam]

Can someone flying on a pegasus above an antimagic cloud negate it using another antimagic cloud spell?

No, don't do it. We allowed this in our Rifts campaign and I was never happy the result. Battles became about casting more Anti-Magic Clouds than your opponents and once scrolls with the spell on them became involved it just changed the dynamic and feel of battles, and in my opinion it was not for the better. I feel Anti-Magic Cloud should be a rare, scary spell and a total game-changer once it enters play. Going forward in my own games I will always rule that this answer is no, and that the spell can only be rode out or escaped. Never negated, except perhaps by gods or miracles.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Can someone flying on a pegasus above an antimagic cloud negate it using another antimagic cloud spell?

No, don't do it. We allowed this in our Rifts campaign and I was never happy the result. Battles became about casting more Anti-Magic Clouds than your opponents and once scrolls with the spell on them became involved it just changed the dynamic and feel of battles, and in my opinion it was not for the better. I feel Anti-Magic Cloud should be a rare, scary spell and a total game-changer once it enters play. Going forward in my own games I will always rule that this answer is no, and that the spell can only be rode out or escaped. Never negated, except perhaps by gods or miracles.

Had similar happen.. so I put a houserule in place.... every time more than 1 AMC got put within range of each other, there was a 5% chance, per AMC involved, that the area effected would PERMANENTLY become anti-magic, with no one immune.... after the first time it happened, the mages started being a LOT more careful about casting it

[pblackcrow]

You are beating a dead horse...As stated above. I had to make a judgement call, THEN...I had delayed the game for several hours. I had them roll, giving a slight bonus to the second caster because he was 15th level and the scroll was 12th...but the 1st one won any 2 out of 3 rolls. And the cloud stayed in effect. Of course the neither one was able to use magic.

Also, as stated above, this brought up another question to mind, which I would like to get a census for. For a group casting and/or ritual castings involving other mages contributing PPE to the spell...Would it be only one person who wouldn't be effected by the spell or would it be everyone?

[URLeader Hobbes]

Can someone flying on a pegasus above an antimagic cloud negate it using another antimagic cloud spell?

Good question! I like the outside the box thinking...

OK lets start this off with an assumption that the above scenario is taking place in a field. Billy the Black cast AMC in the dead center where is is standing. for simplicity just assume Billy is 1st level and the area of effect is 100 ft radius.

Now lets say Billy was being attacked by a few mages, and a couple of men at arms with some magic items/weapons.

Saving throws are made. Anyone getting less than 18 total is outta luck. All magic spells are negated, magic items don't work and any damage that would normally be inflicted by a magic weapon is nullified. (So a sword that magically is enchanted to do extra damage just does the normal damage. It is still made outta steel and is still sharp, just no bonus damage from any magical effects.)Anyone getting 18+ for a save only gets half bonuses or half magical effects. So better than nothing but still greatly reduced.

The upside of all of this is that Billy the Black now can unleash his full magical arsenal with out any negative side effects as he isn't effected inside the cloud. Also all his magical items and weapons retain their full effects. (He doesn't need to save vs his own spell!) Even better is the cloud can't be moved or dispelled for any reason what so ever unless Billy opts to end it early. (IE he's taken care of his attackers.)

Now on the edge of the field Harry the Hireling who also happens to be a mage, and got stuck tending to the mounts at the edge of the filed, while his pals went to take out Billy the Black sees whats going on and recognizes the spell. Lets assume Harry is 5th level. He hops on a flying mount and over Billy's cloud he casts his own.

Here is what would happen.

First Harry has to make a saving throw as he's attempting to cast into the cloud. More than likely it's negated. But lets just say he lucks Harry the Hireling rolls a natural 20 and his spell goes off.

Harry being 5th level casts his cloud with an area of effect of 500 ft. This is cut in half by the fact that Billy's cloud is disrupting it. (Remember making the save only reduces the power instead of totally negating.) So the area of effect is cut down to 250ft. Still pretty good. Also Harry's cloud is reduced in duration as well.

But does it negate/dispel Billy's cloud?

Not at all. Recall the clouds can't be dismissed by anyone other than the caster. So Billy's cloud is still in full effect for the full duration. But here is what DOES happen.

First thing is first. Everyone in the cloud has to make another saving throw as Harry's cloud is overlapping Billys.

Lets say two of Harry's pals saved against Billy's cloud and saw all magical effects reduced by 50% They roll to save again. One gets over the needed 18 and the other does not. The one who failed has all magic rendered useless for the duration of Harry's cloud. The one who succeeded has all magical effects reduced again by 50% as he is being hit with a double whammy from both Billy and Harry. So normal damage -75%

Lastly and maybe most importantly Billy the Black has to make a saving throw. His AMC will remain unaffected by the results of this, he however is a different story. If he makes the required 18 all further effects are reduced by 50%. If Billy fails then his magic is also rendered useless. (Keep in mind Harry's cloud is cast at the center of Billy's and overlaps.)

So the nice advantage Billy enjoyed of being able to wield magic at the full effect while in the cloud is removed. This can really tip the scales back into the favor of Harry's pals who were coming in with weapons. Billy better hope he's got a good plan B or else he's gonna be in BIG trouble.

Hope this helps.

[pblackcrow]

Hobbes, while I do appreciate you and everyone else taking the time to write and respond to my original question, I am trying to move the conversation in a new direction. Please read my above posts.

I did, as always, enjoy reading your response though.


Cheers...And happy new year to every one.

[Glistam]

This brought up a few questions to my mind...for a group casting and/or ritual castings involving other mages contributing PPE to the spell...Would it be only one person who wouldn't be effected by the spell or would it be everyone?

I say no. Ritual spells have a clear leader (the spell can be interrupted by incapacitating the leader) and as such all other participants are basically just P.P.E. sources, willingly donating to the caster's cause.

However, that's the the spell as written. I wouldn't find it unreasonable to believe there could be a version of the spell that's higher than level 11 which, when cast as a ritual, would function in the manner you described (all participants enjoy immunity to the cloud's effects).

Conversely, something like that could perhaps be better envisioned as the providence of the Summoner, and there could be a (currently) unknown/forgotten power circle version of Anti-Magic Cloud which allows those within the circle at the time of activation to enjoy the same immunity as the one who activates the circle. Something like an upgraded version of the Power Leech circle, combined with the Invisibility circle's ability to confer it's ability to those who enter and maintain that ability after they exit.

[pblackcrow]

Personally, I'd say that *IF* mage2 was able to even get his spell off, then the two AMCs would actually stack, making EVERYONE who was casting spells have to save twice, except the two mages who made AMCs, who would only have to save once...

Ok...1 yes. 1 no.