Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

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Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

Unread post by Tor »

Dragons and Gods page 90 says that those who have to pay double to use proto-deific powers are unable to use Annihilated-cost Body Investments...

But I figure this is designed for normal circumstances, seeing as how you can't sacrifice more than 100% of yourself...

In the case of the Demon Lord work-around for BIcost on page 203, do you think this might be a way for the double-cost Lords to do annihilation-level things like Godblaze?

Although the number of Greater Demons to sacrifice is not listed for a tier above Annihilated, I figure you could just double the numbers given there. If we look at the previous steps, the difference between tiers in the cost of demons doesn't double, so that seems pretty conservative.

Otherwise, would Godblaze-via-GreaterDemons salvos have to be launched solely be Modeus/Andras/Abrasax?

Come to think of it... with how the other 2 are plotting, is Modeus even aware that Andras and Abrasax can do Godblaze? Does he know they are standard-cost like him and not double-cost like everyone else?
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Re: Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:Dragons and Gods page 90 says that those who have to pay double to use proto-deific powers are unable to use Annihilated-cost Body Investments...

But I figure this is designed for normal circumstances, seeing as how you can't sacrifice more than 100% of yourself...

In the case of the Demon Lord work-around for BIcost on page 203, do you think this might be a way for the double-cost Lords to do annihilation-level things like Godblaze?

Although the number of Greater Demons to sacrifice is not listed for a tier above Annihilated, I figure you could just double the numbers given there. If we look at the previous steps, the difference between tiers in the cost of demons doesn't double, so that seems pretty conservative.

Otherwise, would Godblaze-via-GreaterDemons salvos have to be launched solely be Modeus/Andras/Abrasax?

Come to think of it... with how the other 2 are plotting, is Modeus even aware that Andras and Abrasax can do Godblaze? Does he know they are standard-cost like him and not double-cost like everyone else?

Well if the book says "Is unable to use this power"....then they cant use the power unless you make a house rule allowing it. This, to me, is supported by the fact that there ISNT a tier cost for these powers via sacrifice, because, again to me, they can't do them. Its not that they don't have enough to pay. Its that they simply can not use the power.
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Re: Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Tor wrote:Dragons and Gods page 90 says that those who have to pay double to use proto-deific powers are unable to use Annihilated-cost Body Investments...

But I figure this is designed for normal circumstances, seeing as how you can't sacrifice more than 100% of yourself...

In the case of the Demon Lord work-around for BIcost on page 203, do you think this might be a way for the double-cost Lords to do annihilation-level things like Godblaze?

Although the number of Greater Demons to sacrifice is not listed for a tier above Annihilated, I figure you could just double the numbers given there. If we look at the previous steps, the difference between tiers in the cost of demons doesn't double, so that seems pretty conservative.

Otherwise, would Godblaze-via-GreaterDemons salvos have to be launched solely be Modeus/Andras/Abrasax?

Come to think of it... with how the other 2 are plotting, is Modeus even aware that Andras and Abrasax can do Godblaze? Does he know they are standard-cost like him and not double-cost like everyone else?


I would say they could use the greater-demon sacrafise as a workaround to do a godblaze--but I also think that they should suffer some kind of permanent side effect from doing so, either permanent scars even devine healing cannot fix, permanent loss in some attribute, or prehaps they lose a bit of themselves and lose an innate power, or even a hefty chunk of their powers. That works with both the wording of the rules and makes a dramaticly interesting reason why Modeus/Andras/Abrasax don't simply use a bunch of demons as sacrafises in a godblaze-assult to annilate the deevil lords while getting around the body cost. they could do it, but it dosn't work quite right for annilated body investment and permanent side effects can range from the discomforting to the crippling if they did, and so they don't want to risk succeeding but then being so weak they are immediately attacked and killed before they can recover the power to do it again--most likely by other demon lords looking to exploit the same loophole that was just demonstrated.


as to the second part, I think most gods in a pantheon have a rough idea of the power level of other gods in their own pantheon, but not to a very fine degree. Modeus certainly knows that abraxus is stronger than succor-bemoth for example, but it's doubtly he knows exactly how much. he might make an educated guess that Abraxus dosn't have to pay double cost, but it'd only be an estimate, he couldn't know unless he actually witness's him performing deific feats and notices he only lost the standard body investment.
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Re: Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I'd allow it, but it's also going to carry a cost... and if you do something as fantastic as Godblaze, and at the same time a whole bunch of your minions disappear, some of the other minions are going to figure it out.

And that's gonna suck, because they won't be happy.
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Re: Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

Unread post by Tor »

eliakon wrote:Its not that they don't have enough to pay. Its that they simply can not use the power.

When we are told that double-costers cannot use the power, it is presented in the context of being unable to pay the Body Investment cost though.

I figured this was obviously because you cannot sacrifice 110 percent of yourself.

The Demon Lord workaround completely ignores your own body though, and is dependent on how many other bodies-of-same-breed you can link together.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I would say they could use the greater-demon sacrafise as a workaround to do a godblaze--but I also think that they should suffer some kind of permanent side effect from doing so, either permanent scars even devine healing cannot fix, permanent loss in some attribute, or prehaps they lose a bit of themselves and lose an innate power, or even a hefty chunk of their powers.

The whole point of Greater Demon Sacrifice is that it is them who lose their bodies and you are not harmed, though.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:That works with both the wording of the rules and makes a dramaticly interesting reason why Modeus/Andras/Abrasax don't simply use a bunch of demons as sacrafises in a godblaze-assult to annilate the deevil lords while getting around the body cost.

That would be de-powering Modeus and the owl and the chicken though, they are fully capable of doing unlimited god blaze attacks against Dyval so long as they gather enough PPE and sacrifices (and those sacrifices can help provide some of that PPE)

I think the main reason this has not happened is simply because to do this, you need a line-of-sight on a Deevil Lord via one of your minions, and the Lords of Dyval are smart enough to keep out of sight. For instances when they do intervene, they can do so on other dimensions via a Secondary Manifestation OR use their uber-cheap Fragment Self ability (only Panath can copy himself for cheaper).

Godblaze tactics against Deevil Lords is prone to wastefulness, you may permanently remove the souls of several of your best demons and only end up costing a Deevil Lord a paltry eighth of a thousand PPE. I would instead use them to take out Regents, and even then, it would cost fewer lives to use the Sphere of Destruction to do so (and several Hell Princes can do that rather than permanently sacrificing Greater Demons)

Nekira Sudacne wrote:they could do it, but it dosn't work quite right for annilated body investment and permanent side effects can range from the discomforting to the crippling if they did, and so they don't want to risk succeeding but then being so weak they are
immediately attacked and killed before they can recover the power to do it again--most likely by other demon lords looking to exploit the same loophole that was just demonstrated.


This would be the reason they avoid doing Body Investment powers in the regular fashion, the whole reason they found the loophole. If you make loophole use as damaging as normal use of the powers it kinda defeats the whole purpose of it.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Modeus certainly knows that abraxus is stronger than succor-bemoth for example

Still not really sure about that. The guy is always whining about Kirgi while Succor-Bemoth is concerned about his wealth being stolen by Kubera-Loe, seems like a higher priority.

Mark Hall wrote:I'd allow it, but it's also going to carry a cost... and if you do something as fantastic as Godblaze, and at the same time a whole bunch of your minions disappear, some of the other minions are going to figure it out.

And that's gonna suck, because they won't be happy.

Succor-Bemoth traditionally was preferentially sacrificing Raksasha, not his own minions...

But I doubt it was because of worrying about his minions reacting to it...

I mean... Magots are hardly the kind to unionize. Considering how prone they are to being summoned by Necromancers and how little grasp of tactics they probably have, they do not seem very reliable.

If you can use an 8-magot Godblaze to kill 9 Locusts or even Modeus himself... well it would be well worth it.

Although with way things are going, I think Succor would prefer to support Modeus and instead might want to Godblaze either Lord Abdul-Ra or Prince Ba Zal to save himself from the hordes of vengeful Raksasha and Death Demons heading his way.
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Re: Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

Unread post by eliakon »

The other problem is that you can use this trick once The first time some demon lord fires off a godblaze in a battle, and they come out totally unharmed, and the greater demons that helped lend power to the invocation are utterly gone......people WILL notice. So any use of this will have to be worth sacrificing the secrecy, AND worth the potential lash back, AND worth the risk that now the other forces (devils, other gods, who knows what else) will be able to 'reverse engineer' how it was done. And to be frank....I can't think of many situations that are worth that (excepting the impending true death of one of the demon lords themselves)
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Re: Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

Unread post by Tor »

The Demon Lords are already using this trick, it's been in effect for centuries.

Obviously there are ways to do it in secret, explain away the absences, silence those who ask questions, etc.

It's never perfect of course, which is how Abdul-Ra found out about sacrificed Raksasha and the sacrifice Jinn are turning to Charun for help.
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Re: Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:The Demon Lords are already using this trick, it's been in effect for centuries.

Obviously there are ways to do it in secret, explain away the absences, silence those who ask questions, etc.

It's never perfect of course, which is how Abdul-Ra found out about sacrificed Raksasha and the sacrifice Jinn are turning to Charun for help.

There is a bit of a difference between using this trick to enchant a holy sword and godblaze a rival god. :bandit:
And there is, AFAIK no clear indication of how long they have been doing it other than 'recently'. Is there an explicit mention that its been going on for centuries?
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Re: Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

Unread post by Tor »

True, more greaters need to die to enact a god-blaze. I suppose the power structure of Hades would not be very stable if all the Lords could do it...

As for while owly hasnèt done it to Modeus yet, I guess he appreciates the stabilizing force that Modeus plays even if he does plan to replace him someday, patient guy.

I will have to check DaG again, but since Ba-Zal the Prince of the Death Demons was created via this ritual, at least that long, and I think he became the first DD centuries ago.
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Re: Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

Unread post by smashed »

A better question then whether its possible or not, is how would they ever find out?

What demon lord is going to volunteer to attempt this ritual to preform an annihilation event without proof that is doesn't result in their destruction?
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Re: Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

Unread post by Tor »

One confident of being wished back into existence within a couple days.

Succor-Bemoth would have the most faith in his own works and can explain what he is attempting to Modeus.

Since he has to pay annihilation to do 2nd-hardest stuff, odds are he notified Modeus of the experiment so that if it failed and he did disintegrate, Modeus could order another Lord (perhaps his consort) to help him in wishing Succor back. You only need 2 deities in your pantheon to want you back to come back after Annihilation, does not even require the deific resurrection to be done.

If he tried annihilation-class stuff, it would either succeed or nothing would happen, since he cannot normally do those things.
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Re: Succor-Bemoth and Magots and God-Blaze

Unread post by smashed »

Guess that's a difference of opinion then, I don't see the demon lords being confident enough of being brought back by their fellow lords to risk using annihilation level abilities except in the most dire of situations, especially one that's more of a n outcast like Succor-Bemoth.

Nor do I agree that the results of failed magical experimentation should be so binary.
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