Parrying larger foes

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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by Library Ogre »

There's no hard and fast rule I'm aware of; your best bet to find one would be Mount Nimro, but I haven't looked at it in years.
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by kiralon »

I don't think mount nimro has anything either and you can just parry anything.

I use more than 1 size class
7-12 ft is +1d6 dam
12-18 ft is +2d6 dam
18-24 is +3d6 dam
1h weapons can parry 1h weapons 1 size class up
1h weapons can parry 2h weapons 1 size up when used paired (the twin parry rules)
shields can parry 1h weapons 2 sizes up and 2h weapons 1 size up
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

To my knowledge there is no rule about this specifically. I'd go with what kiralon suggests, but also take roll with impact into account. Part of the reason parry would be tough vs large attacks is mass. You could decide that the damage is blunt in nature (partially) and allow this to reduce damage as normal.

Otherwise I'd give massive penalties (up to -8 if the size difference is vast enough) and still only allow it where it could make sense, like using a tree to take some of the blow
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by ShadowHawk »

Gnome trying who made his roll to parry a giants spear with a wooden shield. Poor brave Gnome, him no survived nor did shield. However, Exingdor remembers what hims party do next...Tell Exingdor her already defeated. "Fore if the smallest of us was willing to stand and take an attack, what chance would you have against us." Make Exingdor think...or something.

Exingdor was exactly not the brightest log on fire. IQ of 5, ME of 4. Plus the PC had a ring of charismatic aura which he activated. Didn't have to have a duel of wills on this one. That was fun times. :-) Oh well...Gnome-kabob anyone? Joking! However, they were able to get him to a temple before the time had expired.
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by URLeader Hobbes »

Ya gotta house rule it. I generally let players know that a giant weapon (IE Giant swinging a tree) or a massive adult dragons claws/bite can't be parried they gotta be dodged.
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by zyanitevp »

kiralon wrote:I don't think mount nimro has anything either and you can just parry anything.

I use more than 1 size class
7-12 ft is +1d6 dam
12-18 ft is +2d6 dam
18-24 is +3d6 dam
1h weapons can parry 1h weapons 1 size class up
1h weapons can parry 2h weapons 1 size up when used paired (the twin parry rules)
shields can parry 1h weapons 2 sizes up and 2h weapons 1 size up

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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by kiralon »

zyanitevp wrote:
kiralon wrote:I don't think mount nimro has anything either and you can just parry anything.

I use more than 1 size class
7-12 ft is +1d6 dam
12-18 ft is +2d6 dam
18-24 is +3d6 dam
1h weapons can parry 1h weapons 1 size class up
1h weapons can parry 2h weapons 1 size up when used paired (the twin parry rules)
shields can parry 1h weapons 2 sizes up and 2h weapons 1 size up

I like this!

I think I needed to wait a month or 3 before posting this ;)
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by Tor »

I think part of the problem is we sometimes envision a parry as a "stand your ground, take the hit" issue.

But parrying could more realistically be thought of a combination of arm/weapon intervention with a person's footwork. Even when parrying someone your own size, you're likely to involve some footwork.

In the case of small guys parrying larger guys, I just figure a LOT more footwork is involved, and that the parry becomes a lot more dodge-like in nature. You don't use enough to utterly avoid the attack, but enough so that your arm/weapon alignment allows you to be propelled away from the attack, rather than propelling the attack away from you.

Conversely, if the parrier is bigger than the attacker, they can pretty much just stand their ground and use their weight to deflect the attack utterly.

Personally I would like to see dodge/parry be combined in some scenarios, since the skills actually compliment each other, in some cases more than others.

Whether or not people could move their feet would be a major issue with both skills. While one can dodge with planted feet to avoid attacks to the upper body (by ducking into a squat position) it wouldn't be useful against attacks targeting the legs. Being unable to use footwork would also lessen people's ability to competently parry an attacker too, since you can't step into/away from/aside from a swing/thrust to compliment whatever is done with the arms.

I can't see any point in trying to resolve common-sense considerations like large/small without taking into account these other parrying/dodging/footwork issues, Palladium ought to invent a new rule altogether for them.

A "dodging parry" for example, would be something small people ought to use against large ones, something where more footwork is used, where a parry is designed to launch oneself away from the attacker, rather than the attacker away from oneself. This parry would be penalized by inability to move feet (like from carpet of adhesion) whereas a "deflect your opponent, plant your feet" technique giants would use against smaller guys, should not be compromised.
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by kiralon »

Tor wrote:I can't see any point in trying to resolve common-sense considerations like large/small without taking into account these other parrying/dodging/footwork issues, Palladium ought to invent a new rule altogether for them.

Im lazy, changing the bigger issues means there is less loss of immersion so the smaller things can slide by, but I have a whole range of parry rules (don't try to parry with an axe, or a ball and chain in my games for example)
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by Cinos »

If the size difference is great, I'll often just disallow it, with shields granted added consideration in that regard. It's hardly a hard and fast rule, but just a common sense thing.

I eventually shifted Parry's to be 50% damage reduction (with shields also absorbing that total) to provide a bigger degree of difference between dodge and parry (since parry is just better when it's allowed in every situation). This factored, to an extent, size, since you'd still suffer a greater degree of damage (since bigger things tend to have bigger damage). It made parry a more general 'standing to avoid mitigate impact', rather than purely a 'deflects attack totally' and played out a lot more interestingly.
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

kiralon wrote:
Tor wrote:I can't see any point in trying to resolve common-sense considerations like large/small without taking into account these other parrying/dodging/footwork issues, Palladium ought to invent a new rule altogether for them.

Im lazy, changing the bigger issues means there is less loss of immersion so the smaller things can slide by, but I have a whole range of parry rules (don't try to parry with an axe, or a ball and chain in my games for example)


In regards to this, if a player in my games wants to get crazy and they tell me how they do things, i'll often give them a slight break because I want to encourage creativity. Of course, there are times when there's just nothing you can do against the half ton of dragon tail whipping right at you aside dive behind a boulder.
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by zyanitevp »

kiralon wrote:
zyanitevp wrote:
kiralon wrote:I don't think mount nimro has anything either and you can just parry anything.

I use more than 1 size class
7-12 ft is +1d6 dam
12-18 ft is +2d6 dam
18-24 is +3d6 dam
1h weapons can parry 1h weapons 1 size class up
1h weapons can parry 2h weapons 1 size up when used paired (the twin parry rules)
shields can parry 1h weapons 2 sizes up and 2h weapons 1 size up

I like this!

I think I needed to wait a month or 3 before posting this ;)

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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by sHaka »

There is an official ruling on this - It's basically that size doesn't prevent you parrying a blow, a gnome CAN parry an ogre etc.

I'm wracking my brain as to where I saw it... I shall return with a source!
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by sHaka »

Mryoto wrote:
sHaka wrote:There is an official ruling on this - It's basically that size doesn't prevent you parrying a blow, a gnome CAN parry an ogre etc.

I'm wracking my brain as to where I saw it... I shall return with a source!


If you found the source of that I would much appreciate it. While I will most likely keep our house rule in play, I always like to be able to reference rules in the game.


I haven't forgotten Mryoto, still searching! :D
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by Tor »

It is not so much that I think a Gnome could not parry an Ogre....

Just that I think weight and strength of both parties ought to factor into how hard it is to do this.

The nature of deflection is that you don't have to use as much force as blocking... yet parry seems to include deflect AND block so... blah.

Even when deflecting though, you still need enough force to shift something... an Ogre's fist being around double the size would take double the force of a human's to swat aside... and then there's stuff like parrying heavy mauls.
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by Tor »

Prowess would help you get your arms up to block an attack, but it wouldn't help in having the strength to take that hit. It would help in being more able to achieve a deflection using less force though.

More rules ARE fun :) Unbeatable Gnomes are hilarious but when you think about how they really ought to have taken over the Palladium World based on their comparative efficiency, explaining that away becomes challenging...

I guess Gnomes hate each other or have a low breeding drive or are super-passive or something... smoking pipes under hills and such even if they got their act together, coordinate their low-space low-food magic-prone capacity would wreck all other races.
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by sHaka »

Found it! (sorry for the delay)

Rifter #48 pg. 25 in an article by Mark Oberle, Irvin Jackson and Kevin Siembeida - Official answers to Nightbane questions (megaversal system, right? ;) )

Kevin states that mundane folk can parry foes even with supernatural strength, as parrying isn't about blocking an attach but "redirecting" the blow. So, it is certainly Kevin's intention in the megaversal system that the weak and small can parry the large and strong.
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by kiralon »

sHaka wrote:Found it! (sorry for the delay)

Rifter #48 pg. 25 in an article by Mark Oberle, Irvin Jackson and Kevin Siembeida - Official answers to Nightbane questions (megaversal system, right? ;) )

Kevin states that mundane folk can parry foes even with supernatural strength, as parrying isn't about blocking an attach but "redirecting" the blow. So, it is certainly Kevin's intention in the megaversal system that the weak and small can parry the large and strong.

I do believe you can deflect bigger stronger blows, but only to a point and its takes a lot more skill to do so then to parry someone of similar size and strength. When deflecting most people think of overhead blows that only need to be knocked a small amount out of the way, but when a giant swings something the size of a log at you horizontal waist height, that goes 6ft behind you, how the hell do you deflect that blow so it doesn't hit you?
I guess that rule is there so normals can fight banes with some chance of staying alive in nightbane, but I think ill stick with my way. If you want to parry a dragon, be a dragon, otherwise dodging is your friend.
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Re: Parrying larger foes

Unread post by flatline »

There are two concepts to consider when considering if a parry is possible: leverage (aka mechanical advantage) and conservation of momentum.

If you have a knife, you have exactly zero chance of deflecting a log that is swung at you by a giant. You might improve your chances of dodging if you use the knife to press against the log, but that that point it's not a parry at all.

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