Are Protection Circles area effect spheres or cylinders

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Are Protection Circles area effect spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

and does the protection bubble or wall extend through the earth so you can do big protection circles over underground ruins and really interfere with the movement of things below.
It seems that the protection circle was only thought of in a 2 dimensional way, as it does say that it only protects in the circles radius, but if that is applied to the vertical axis you cant walk to the edge of the circle without your head and body coming out of the sphere made by the radius.
If its a cylinder just how high does it go
Protection circles repel things quite well, so can a being stand/sit on top of one and generally use it as a bridge if they fail their saving throw.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by Hotrod »

Excellent question! I had always assumed that they were cylinders, but the spherical interpretation seems far more balanced and reasonable than a 5-foot circle that reaches into the stratosphere.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

I can't understand how you are having an issue with this...

It's a Circle of Protection, not a Sphere of Protection, and not a Cylinder of Protection.

..It seems that the protection circle was only thought of in a 2 dimensional way...


Yeah, because it's a Circle.. They are by definition 2 dimensional..

So the answer to your question is in the question itself.. No. A Circle is a Circle, not a Sphere or a Cylinder.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by eliakon »

MADMANMIKE wrote:I can't understand how you are having an issue with this...

It's a Circle of Protection, not a Sphere of Protection, and not a Cylinder of Protection.

..It seems that the protection circle was only thought of in a 2 dimensional way...


Yeah, because it's a Circle.. They are by definition 2 dimensional..

So the answer to your question is in the question itself.. No. A Circle is a Circle, not a Sphere or a Cylinder.

So by that logic I can ignore the circle if I hover an inch off the ground?
The question was not what shape the circle is, its what shape is the protection. Is it a 2-d slice on the ground (utterly and totally pointless), is it a cylinder of some arbitrary height, or is it a sphere with the edge of the circle just showing where it intersects with the surface it is written on.

I have often used the theory that a Circle provides a column of defense with a height equal to twice the diameter. (the reason for that is arcane....but basically boiled down to 'it worked out pretty well' This varies if your inside then circles tend to prevent anyone flying over them inside the same room (but only to a certain size...again flexibility was needed)
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by Hotrod »

If it's ONLY two-dimensional, and it's just a question of touching the circle, then anything that can jump over it, hover, or fly can effectively enter it. One could even make an argument for rolling a rug on top of a protection circle and ignoring it entirely.

If it's a two-dimensional circle that protects a cylinder, then how tall is that cylinder? If it's much higher than the radius of the circle, then all kinds of questions come to mind, such as:
Does a circle of protection therefore go infinitely up and down?
Will a circle on one side of the planet protect the other side of the planet, too?
Could you draw a circle on a movable/pivotable platform and aim it like a spotlight of protection?

The spherical interpretation seems the most reasonable to me, as it precludes these shenanigans.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

I would suggest you guys just read the description.. this is not a discussion that would happen at my table.

Palladium Fantasy RPG 2E wrote:
Page 208, first full paragraph: "The simple protection circle will protect everybody inside of it's diameter by keeping lesser supernatural creatures, demons, ghosts and entities six feet away from the circle. The creature cannot come any closer nor enter the circle.... ...Although lesser supernatural beings, such as entities, ghouls, and gremlins cannot come near or enter the circle, they can hurl objects, use weapons or use magic and psychic powers against the people inside it.."


That's from the simple spell, the Superior spell gives greater protection, but still states that ranged/magic/psychic attacks can be leveled against the occupants.

The Summoner's protection circles work essentially the same way (see page 137, bottom of the second column).

There is no 'force field' of protection involved, so what is the point of wondering if it's a cylinder or sphere (which again, it isn't because those are not 'circles')?
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by The Beast »

I forget which book it was in, but the answer given was that when a spell with an AoE was cast in a building, the effect stayed on the floor it was cast on, and didn't go to the other floors.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by arouetta »

It says that beings held at bay cannot enter a circle unless they successfully save vs magic. If it's two-dimensional, they can plant their feet outside and bend over their top half to reach in and attack without rolling a save. If it's a sphere, people at the outer edges don't have head/upper body protection. I vote for a cylinder of reasonable height.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by eliakon »

MADMANMIKE wrote:I would suggest you guys just read the description.. this is not a discussion that would happen at my table.

Palladium Fantasy RPG 2E wrote:
Page 208, first full paragraph: "The simple protection circle will protect everybody inside of it's diameter by keeping lesser supernatural creatures, demons, ghosts and entities six feet away from the circle. The creature cannot come any closer nor enter the circle.... ...Although lesser supernatural beings, such as entities, ghouls, and gremlins cannot come near or enter the circle, they can hurl objects, use weapons or use magic and psychic powers against the people inside it.."


That's from the simple spell, the Superior spell gives greater protection, but still states that ranged/magic/psychic attacks can be leveled against the occupants.

The Summoner's protection circles work essentially the same way (see page 137, bottom of the second column).

There is no 'force field' of protection involved, so what is the point of wondering if it's a cylinder or sphere (which again, it isn't because those are not 'circles')?

Well the Circle of Force leaps to mind as the obvious exception here. Or a Circle of Protection from Elemental Forces (if it keeps out rain...what stays dry?) (this is very important here in PF where there are lots of Protection circles, not just two spells)
The other question is lets say we are just using the spell Protection Circle: Simple. it gives "The circle aslo provides its occupants with a bonus of +2 to save vs magic and psychic attack."
Great.... who is an occupant? Obviously the mage standing in the circle is. What about his raven familiar perched on his shoulder? The pixie flying by his head? With out the spell having some sort of 3-D extension then their is just some sort of 2-D plane of protection...which would not protect either of those two (whom I think should be).

So the question is "Who gets the protection of a circle, and why. Follow up, who does NOT get the protection, and why. Discuss."
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

MADMANMIKE wrote:I would suggest you guys just read the description.. this is not a discussion that would happen at my table.

Palladium Fantasy RPG 2E wrote:
Page 208, first full paragraph: "The simple protection circle will protect everybody inside of it's diameter by keeping lesser supernatural creatures, demons, ghosts and entities six feet away from the circle. The creature cannot come any closer nor enter the circle.... ...Although lesser supernatural beings, such as entities, ghouls, and gremlins cannot come near or enter the circle, they can hurl objects, use weapons or use magic and psychic powers against the people inside it.."


That's from the simple spell, the Superior spell gives greater protection, but still states that ranged/magic/psychic attacks can be leveled against the occupants.

The Summoner's protection circles work essentially the same way (see page 137, bottom of the second column).

There is no 'force field' of protection involved, so what is the point of wondering if it's a cylinder or sphere (which again, it isn't because those are not 'circles')?

I must say I was talking about the summoners circles, which does mention the distance for lesser creatures (generally 10ft and wont come closer) but it does protect vertically because you still get hit by the circle magic if you stand outside the circle and attack (even with a weapon). but I have had players try to use them as flight inhibitors(don't fly over), bottoms of pit traps, put them on walls (glued components to the wall) so the effect went horizontal and above ground over ruins to stop creatures below from wandering freely, in doorways to stop ghosts coming out.
6ft is to small as an elf in a protection circle would have to crouch not to get his head bitten off and the larger creatures would get barely any protection
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

eliakon wrote:Well the Circle of Force leaps to mind as the obvious exception here.


..Uhh.. yeah, because it's not a Circle of Protection.. which is the topic you started here...

Or a Circle of Protection from Elemental Forces (if it keeps out rain...what stays dry?)


..Seriously? Everything in the circle...

(this is very important here in PF where there are lots of Protection circles, not just two spells)


..Hence my mention in the reply you quoted of the Description of Protection Circles and their effects under the Summoner class...

The other question is lets say we are just using the spell Protection Circle: Simple. it gives "The circle aslo provides its occupants with a bonus of +2 to save vs magic and psychic attack."
Great.... who is an occupant? Obviously the mage standing in the circle is. What about his raven familiar perched on his shoulder? The pixie flying by his head? With out the spell having some sort of 3-D extension then their is just some sort of 2-D plane of protection...which would not protect either of those two (whom I think should be).

So the question is "Who gets the protection of a circle, and why. Follow up, who does NOT get the protection, and why. Discuss."


Again, there is no discussion to be had here; it's simple plain English:

Palladium Fantasy RPG 2E wrote:
Page 208, first full paragraph: "The simple protection circle will protect everybody inside of it's diameter by keeping lesser supernatural creatures, demons, ghosts and entities six feet away from the circle. The creature cannot come any closer nor enter the circle.... ...Although lesser supernatural beings, such as entities, ghouls, and gremlins cannot come near or enter the circle, they can hurl objects, use weapons or use magic and psychic powers against the people inside it.."
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

That's a wizard spell, not a circlemade by a summoner, if they were made the same i'd cross rules over for it but all a wizard has to do is scrawl a circle in the ground with charcoal, and the circles of protection made by a summoner have different rules (note see keeps lesser beings 10ft away, and greater beings can walk up to the edge and attack inside and take damage and get negatives to strike). They are not the same thing.

wizards cant do circles
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

kiralon wrote:That's a wizard spell, not a circlemade by a summoner, if they were made the same i'd cross rules over for it but all a wizard has to do is scrawl a circle in the ground with charcoal, and the circles of protection made by a summoner have different rules (note see keeps lesser beings 10ft away, and greater beings can walk up to the edge and attack inside and take damage and get negatives to strike). They are not the same thing.


Okay, I'm out. You continue to ignore what I say to argue with other parts of what I've said.

MADMANMIKE wrote:The Summoner's protection circles work essentially the same way (see page 137, bottom of the second column).


I've explained the Protection Circles as written in the books, if you want to make up extra rules or ignore the plain English that they are written in, enjoy.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

kiralon wrote:and does the protection bubble or wall extend through the earth so you can do big protection circles over underground ruins and really interfere with the movement of things below.
It seems that the protection circle was only thought of in a 2 dimensional way, as it does say that it only protects in the circles radius, but if that is applied to the vertical axis you cant walk to the edge of the circle without your head and body coming out of the sphere made by the radius.
If its a cylinder just how high does it go
Protection circles repel things quite well, so can a being stand/sit on top of one and generally use it as a bridge if they fail their saving throw.

It can be ether, depending on which variant of the spell used or how the caster envisions the protection.....depending on how the GM sees things.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

MADMANMIKE wrote:
kiralon wrote:That's a wizard spell, not a circlemade by a summoner, if they were made the same i'd cross rules over for it but all a wizard has to do is scrawl a circle in the ground with charcoal, and the circles of protection made by a summoner have different rules (note see keeps lesser beings 10ft away, and greater beings can walk up to the edge and attack inside and take damage and get negatives to strike). They are not the same thing.


Okay, I'm out. You continue to ignore what I say to argue with other parts of what I've said.

MADMANMIKE wrote:The Summoner's protection circles work essentially the same way (see page 137, bottom of the second column).


I've explained the Protection Circles as written in the books, if you want to make up extra rules or ignore the plain English that they are written in, enjoy.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, im talking about the circles of protection vs <insert creature/thing here>

the bit that I quoted is the following on column on the left hand side of page 138 where the descriptions of the circles continues on (about leaning into a circle), and then in the specific description of each circle type(eg protection from devils, protection from faerie folk) . That's why I argued against the 6ft range, the circle descriptions themselves don't agree with you,
and as to the force field this is also from the book on page 138 for sealed circles of protection
An invisible magic barrier prevents all others from entering. Those who successfully save vs circle magic can also enter the sealed circle but suffer the usual damage and penalties whether the Summoner is present or not.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by Hotrod »

MADMANMIKE wrote:
Again, there is no discussion to be had here; it's simple plain English:

Palladium Fantasy RPG 2E wrote:
Page 208, first full paragraph: "The simple protection circle will protect everybody inside of it's diameter by keeping lesser supernatural creatures, demons, ghosts and entities six feet away from the circle. The creature cannot come any closer nor enter the circle.... ...Although lesser supernatural beings, such as entities, ghouls, and gremlins cannot come near or enter the circle, they can hurl objects, use weapons or use magic and psychic powers against the people inside it.."



The fundamental question is this: When a magic circle has some effect inside and/or outside itself, how do we know what is inside that circle and what is outside that circle? I'm not 100% sure I understand your position. I'm not sure that the quote is so cut-and-dry.

It's all a question of paradigm. What kind of geometry do you prefer to use? Most people think in 2-D terms where land and territory are concerned, and it's natural to extend that thinking up and down in cylindrical coordinates. This paradigm can become a problem when you bump up against geometries that aren't defined the way you're used to looking at things.

How you define geometric borders is serious business. Wars have started this way. For example, is a spy plane flying at 70,000 feet over Evilmanistan violating its territory? In general, yes. What about a satellite orbiting at a higher altitude? In general, no. What does the vertical border extend to? There isn't much agreement on that, up OR down. Does a land-owner own the rights to oil thousands of feet under his land? In general, yes. Is he allowed to drill at an angle, so that he's getting oil that is under someone else's land? sometimes yes, sometimes no. If not, is it ok for him to suck so much oil that the oil under his neighbor's land flows into his? That depends on who has the better army.

Let's try some thought experiments.

Scenario 1. The circle is 1 mile wide.

Flat 2D interpretation: Lesser supernatural creatures on the ground walk closer than 6 ft from the circle's perimeter, but they can attack at distance. They also cannot land in the area, though they can fly/float as close as 6 ft above it or tunnel as shallow as 6 ft below it. A 20 ft giant at the center of the circle could be attacked by airborne threats using melee attacks, as long as they don't swoop below 6 ft.
3D Cylinder Interpretation: Depending on the height/depth you assign the cylinder, Lesser supernatural creatures cannot fly over the circle, nor can they tunnel underneath. A giant inside the circle cannot be attacked in melee (unless you set the height of the cylinder very low). The circle could be projected if placed on a round table and tilted.
3D Sphere Interpretation: The circle of protection is circular in all three dimensions. In effect, it produces a sphere with a diameter equal to a half mile + 6 feet. A giant in the middle is safe, though lesser supernatural threats could fly over or walk underneath it, if the height difference is great enough.

Scenario 2. The circle is 1 inch wide, drawn on a helmet (I realize this probably isn't allowed, this is purely for understanding the geometric interpretation).
The flat 2D interpretation is basically the same as the 3D sphere interpretation. No supernatural creatures can get within 6 feet of the helmet.
The 3D cylinder interpretation projects a 12-ft wide "beam" of exclusion (6 ft on either side of the circle's cylindrical projection) for whatever the height limitation is.

Scenario 3: The circle is 50 feet wide, and is at the bottom of a pool which is 8 feet deep. The group is standing on a raft floating above the middle of the circle.
Flat 2D interpretation: It's open season for lesser supernatural predators, who can attack the group in melee as long as they don't go more than 2 feet underwater on their way to the raft.
3D Cylinder Interpretation: Whether or not supernatural predators can enter depends on the height/depth you assign the cylinder.
3D Sphere Interpretation: Lesser supernatural creatures cannot attack the group in melee.

The spherical interpretation seems the most straightforward and intuitive to me, but I'd be curious as to how others would call it.
Last edited by Hotrod on Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

I agree, the spherical shape would be more likely but on the whole a bit aggravating to figure out where to duck, the cylinder shape is a much easier proposal to play with and you can make it simple that it goes up twice the diameter of the circle or something like that, so that if a titan does a circle he isn't only protected up to his knees, as his circle is likely to be much wider.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by eliakon »

kiralon wrote:I agree, the spherical shape would be more likely but on the whole a bit aggravating to figure out where to duck, the cylinder shape is a much easier proposal to play with and you can make it simple that it goes up twice the diameter of the circle or something like that, so that if a titan does a circle he isn't only protected up to his knees, as his circle is likely to be much wider.

A potential compromise is to do the sphere....but extend things out the 6' Though that invites the abuse of the 1" circles. I would DEFINATLY say that the effect will NOT penetrate walls, floors, ceilings, roofs, or other such things. (no drawing a circle in the basement and then hiding inside it on the floor above it :P)
As I said I tend to use the cylinder approach, though I will admit much of that is from Another Game where you have 'hexs' so a protection circle that is 10 hexes around would be 1 hex high (with a hex being the space taken up by an average person...)
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by Grug »

Wow madmanmike... I'm not sure why you're being so mean about this.

You're just saying it works the way it says it works. Than You more or less just call everyone morons for not understanding it. If you would take a look at how it could work, you would understand why the question was asked. Below is an example of how you have said it would work, cause it's a 2-D circle.

The example,
Crystoph, draws a 3 ft diameter protection from demons circle and seals it (preventing any demon from entering unless they make a saving throw.). He then puts a twinkie in the middle of the circle.
A Night Owl (the demon kind) walks by and sees the twinkie, he tries to cross the circle but can't. He then goes I can fly, then lifts himself off the ground 10ft and flies over the circle. While never touching the circle he then grabs the twinkie and flies off.

If he must make the saving throw to enter the circle while flying the circle then becomes a cylinder or a sphere. True you didn't have as much information when you responded. Always remeber you will learn more what a person is asking or thinking with questions than with assumptions.

Personally I always make it domed and the circle can't pass through floors/walls.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

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Grug wrote:Wow madmanmike... I'm not sure why you're being so mean about this.

You're just saying it works the way it says it works. Than You more or less just call everyone morons for not understanding it. If you would take a look at how it could work, you would understand why the question was asked. Below is an example of how you have said it would work, cause it's a 2-D circle.

The example,
Crystoph, draws a 3 ft diameter protection from demons circle and seals it (preventing any demon from entering unless they make a saving throw.). He then puts a twinkie in the middle of the circle.
A Night Owl (the demon kind) walks by and sees the twinkie, he tries to cross the circle but can't. He then goes I can fly, then lifts himself off the ground 10ft and flies over the circle. While never touching the circle he then grabs the twinkie and flies off.

If he must make the saving throw to enter the circle while flying the circle then becomes a cylinder or a sphere. True you didn't have as much information when you responded. Always remeber you will learn more what a person is asking or thinking with questions than with assumptions.

Personally I always make the domed and the circle can't pass through floors/walls.


That's how I picture it as well.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

Grug wrote:Wow madmanmike... I'm not sure why you're being so mean about this.


How I have I been mean? I responded to misunderstanding of what's in the book with quotes, highlighting the parts that refute the misunderstanding..

Grug wrote:You're just saying it works the way it says it works.


Because it does...

Grug wrote:Than You more or less just call everyone morons for not understanding it.


Don't put words in my mouth, I did nothing of the sort.. I have not insulted anyone, I've expressed frustration over people ignoring the text of my posts..

Grug wrote:If you would take a look at how it could work, you would understand why the question was asked.


I'm pretty confident that I understand why the question was asked; a lack of comprehension of the words used to describe Protection Circles and Circles of Protection, in all three places in the book where it is described and elaborated upon..

Grug wrote: Below is an example of how you have said it would work, cause it's a 2-D circle.


Go back and read my post again, I never said that the effects are 2 dimensional, only that a circle is.. The effects make perfect sense the way they are described:

Page 208: The simple protection circle will protect everybody inside its diameter by keeping lesser supernatural creaters, demons, ghosts and entities six feet (1.8 m) away from the circle. The creatures cannot come any closer, nor enter the circle.

Page 214: The superior protection circle will protect everybody inside its radius by preventing all supernatural creatures from coming any closer than 20 feet (6 m) from its edge.

Page 137: Beings which the circle protects against are magically held at bay and cannot enter the circle unless they make a successful saving throw (16 or higher).

Page 138: The beings held outside a magic circle may also try to save vs circle magic (base save is 16, sometimes higher; see saving throws). A successful save to beat the circle's magic temporarily[i] enables the creature to enter its protective confines.


So what you have here are definitions of a circle's power protecting everybody inside its diameter and radius, preventing a creature from entering the circle, and further stating that if it saves it can enter it's protective confines. Further on page 138:

However, because the circle is designed to protect people from that particular being, it is bombarded by magic forces the moment it steps into the circle..


So instead of complicating matters by bringing other shapes like spheres and cylinders into it, logic should dictate that a creature that can be perceived as being inside a circle is thus. How do you observe whether something is inside of something else? You observe the dimensions of the circle and look to see if any part of the offending creature appears to be within said dimensions. Mind-bogglingly simple.. The only way to get confused is to not understand that as a 3-dimensional being, it is your perceptions that matter, not that of the 2-dimensional object (which of course has no perception, but if it did would surely only perceive anything above it's own 2-dimensional plane and thus within it's diameter {I'm loathe to do this, but I will refer anyone with questions of this notion to RIFTS World Book Three: England, pages 74-75, the description of the perceptions of a 2-dimensional being)..

Grug wrote: The example,
Crystoph, draws a 3 ft diameter protection from demons circle and seals it (preventing any demon from entering unless they make a saving throw.). He then puts a twinkie in the middle of the circle.
A Night Owl (the demon kind) walks by and sees the twinkie, he tries to cross the circle but can't. He then goes I can fly, then lifts himself off the ground 10ft and flies over the circle. While never touching the circle he then grabs the twinkie and flies off.

If he must make the saving throw to enter the circle while flying the circle then becomes a cylinder or a sphere.


Nonsense. A 2-dimensional circle does not need to transform into a 3-dimensional shape; it's effects have been described as affecting the 3rd dimension. As anyone and anything inside the circle exists in the 3rd dimension, and anything that the circle is made to protect from also exists within the 3rd dimension, it should be obvious that the effects cannot be cheated by simply not 'touching' the 2-dimensional circle. Nowhere in any of the three descriptions does it say anything about physical contact.

Grug wrote:True you didn't have as much information when you responded. Always remeber you will learn more what a person is asking or thinking with questions than with assumptions.


kiralon made several assumptions about the answers they would get when asking the question "Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders"; as the thread has progressed kiralon has done little to clarify that the question was indeed intended to be "Are Circles of Protection spheres or cylinders" other than taking offense to my answers to the question that was actually asked. kiralon has also further obfuscated the topic by suggesting it's obvious that a Circle of Power ("Well the Circle of Force leaps to mind") should be considered in the equation as well.

The first sentence of the OP is rendered irrelevant by the title of the thread, which is an absurdity. Circles are circles, not spheres or cylinders. <-- that's not an assumption, it's English comprehension.

Grug wrote:Personally I always make it domed and the circle can't pass through floors/walls.


As I said before, if you want to make up extra rules or ignore the plain English that they are written in, enjoy. Enjoyment is the whole point of playing a game, isn't it?
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by Grug »

Let me get this straight, if I make a protection from demons circle around a city In your game, it will stop demons from flying over the city, no matter how high they can fly? So an outdoor circle in you game stretches out beyond the blackness that is space? Stopping any demon from flying over the city forever since circles last forever. That's awesome.

In my game there is a ceiling to the circle, so let's say a player put the same type of circle around a city in the game. The ceiling might be a mile high, so demons could still fly over it. If they wanted to enter from above at that mile high mark they could, as long as they make there saving throw.

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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

Grug wrote:
MADMANMIKE wrote:Okay, I'm out. You continue to ignore what I say to argue with other parts of what I've said.
Knew you would come back, they always do :p


Yep, you baited me, and I took it. Congrats! :hug:
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

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Grug wrote:Let me get this straight, if I make a protection from demons circle around a city In your game, it will stop demons from flying over the city, no matter how high they can fly? So an outdoor circle in you game stretches out beyond the blackness that is space? Stopping any demon from flying over the city forever since circles last forever. That's awesome.


No, you couldn't make a circle that big. But thanks for pointing out that people are willing to go to absurd extremes without something in the rules reeling them in to sense, I'll make a note of it for Palladium Fantasy Ultimate Edition.. "Limits on the size of Circles".
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

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There is nothing that's says you can't make a circle that big. If players spent the time and money to do it why shouldn't they be able to. Especially since all it takes is one person to break through and cast earthquake...
If you were able to talk Kevin into putting a size limit on circles, my faith in the fantasy ultimate edition would start to wane.

If you take an empty paper towel roll, place it on a piece of paper and draw around it. Making that the circle of protection, keeping the roll on the circle to represent the shape of the invisible barrier that someone needs to cross to enter. It would look like a cylinder.

And I'm spent.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I'd be inclined to say the circle, for purposes of what it protects, is not a sphere, nor a cylinder, but a bubble. If you are planted inside the circle, you are protected by the circle, as if you were surrounded by a flexible bubble. If something is flying above you, then it cannot touch you if it is kept out by the circle... even if you put your arms way above your head (though not necessarily out to the side, since crossing the plane of the circle "pops" it for you until you're back inside). The effect is like a silo JUST tall enough to keep everything inside protected.

So if you have a circle big enough, a 20' giant is completely protected by the circle... but so would a 2' gnome be. If something tried to tunnel from below, then it would be stopped by the circle if it tried to come up through it... though it might remove enough earth to make standing in that circle dangerous, and your weight will break it.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by eliakon »

Grug wrote:There is nothing that's says you can't make a circle that big. If players spent the time and money to do it why shouldn't they be able to. Especially since all it takes is one person to break through and cast earthquake...
If you were able to talk Kevin into putting a size limit on circles, my faith in the fantasy ultimate edition would start to wane.

If you take an empty paper towel roll, place it on a piece of paper and draw around it. Making that the circle of protection, keeping the roll on the circle to represent the shape of the invisible barrier that someone needs to cross to enter. It would look like a cylinder.

And I'm spent.

And given the fluff text in the LoD books, Balagor Wastelands, and Island at the end of the world we already know that its possible to make at least one "mutant-mega planet spanning circle' And I recall talk of a 'miles wide' circle that those guys in the Grasslands were working on.
Now of course PFUE will be a new rule set, so I guess they could just change how circles work and put a size cap on them. Though it would then mesh badly with Rifts where such things have been built. *shrugs*
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

eliakon wrote:..its possible to make at least one "mutant-mega planet spanning circle' And I recall talk of a 'miles wide' circle that those guys in the Grasslands were working on.


Can you give a source for that?
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

Sorry madman, Eliakon mentioned the circle of force, I just quoted the book where a sealed circle gets An invisible magic barrier prevents all others from entering. That tends to suggest a wall around the circle.

but I think I get your logic now, if your feet (and the rest of your presumably but something has to be on the ground) are in the circle you are protected ?

but a baalrog putting his arm in a circle of protection vs demons and swiping at someone takes 2d6 damage with -2 strike. The baalrogs arm is 8ft about the radius of the circle. If circles are 2 dimensional only it wouldn't effect an arm 8ft above it (and I think the baalrog would take the damage even if it missed by rolling a 1). This makes the circle affect the 3rd dimension to my logic, not to mention the invisible magic barrier statement also suggests a wall that goes up, and all a sealed circle does is make it stop everything from coming in without being made to at circle creation, not just the creature it was designed to protect against, and you seem to ignore these effects.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

You guys are just doing this over and over again to get me, right?

Nothing in any of the descriptions (nor in anything I've said) suggests that physical contact with a circle is necessary. Nothing. Nowhere.

MADMANMIKE wrote:Nonsense. A 2-dimensional circle does not need to transform into a 3-dimensional shape; it's effects have been described as affecting the 3rd dimension. As anyone and anything inside the circle exists in the 3rd dimension, and anything that the circle is made to protect from also exists within the 3rd dimension, it should be obvious that the effects cannot be cheated by simply not 'touching' the 2-dimensional circle. Nowhere in any of the three descriptions does it say anything about physical contact.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

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MADMANMIKE wrote: (liberal snippage)
So instead of complicating matters by bringing other shapes like spheres and cylinders into it, logic should dictate that a creature that can be perceived as being inside a circle is thus. How do you observe whether something is inside of something else? You observe the dimensions of the circle and look to see if any part of the offending creature appears to be within said dimensions. Mind-bogglingly simple.. The only way to get confused is to not understand that as a 3-dimensional being, it is your perceptions that matter, not that of the 2-dimensional object (which of course has no perception, but if it did would surely only perceive anything above it's own 2-dimensional plane and thus within it's diameter {I'm loathe to do this, but I will refer anyone with questions of this notion to RIFTS World Book Three: England, pages 74-75, the description of the perceptions of a 2-dimensional being)..
(more snippage)
A 2-dimensional circle does not need to transform into a 3-dimensional shape; it's effects have been described as affecting the 3rd dimension. As anyone and anything inside the circle exists in the 3rd dimension, and anything that the circle is made to protect from also exists within the 3rd dimension, it should be obvious that the effects cannot be cheated by simply not 'touching' the 2-dimensional circle. Nowhere in any of the three descriptions does it say anything about physical contact.
(even more snippage)
The first sentence of the OP is rendered irrelevant by the title of the thread, which is an absurdity. Circles are circles, not spheres or cylinders. <-- that's not an assumption, it's English comprehension.

Ah, your interpretation is now clear to me. To be inside the circle, the circle must physically surround some part of you, like the donut of doom from that silly movie in the 90's about martian invaders whose name escapes me. In a geometric sense, some part of you must lie in the plane of the circle itself. This is a perfectly valid interpretation.

There are, however, multiple ways to interpret the text. For example, the infield of a baseball field is defined as the space inside the square made by the bases. If we follow your interpretation, then the pitcher does not stand in the infield because the pitcher's mound is a bit higher than the plane of that square. Most people (and the official rules) consider the pitcher and his mound to be in the infield. In basketball, a defending center is often said to be "in the paint", but of course, he's not even touching it. He's just standing over it. In ice hokey, the puck at the beginning of the game is dropped "in the neutral zone", but of course, it's not really between the lines drawn under the ice. The puck is between the vertical projections of those lines, just like the pitcher in the infield, just like the center in the paint. I respect your interpretation, but I think it goes against the way that most people perceive boundaries drawn in the ground.

Your interpretation has some potential issues. No surface is perfectly flat, and it stands to reason that no magic circle will be, either. How can you account for the wobble of a circle in your interpretation? If that is no issue, then you're facing another problem: any closed circle could be trampled over by someone wearing platform shoes, because they're always above the circle. Conversely, in order to be truly "in" a circle of healing or teleportation, the summoner would have to excavate the area inside the circle to make sure that everyone he intends to heal or teleport is inside.

Either way, it's an interesting topic for discussion. I certainly don't mean to frustrate you, and I understand the words you're quoting. I see your point of view and I respect it. In a strict geometrical sense, I agree with you. However, there's more than one definition to many words in English, and 'inside' is no exception. In this sense, I see the drawn circle as a boundary or a border that symbolizes what's truly going on, much like the symbols, sacrifice, and words symbolize the magic effect invoked.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

Is this a drinking game? I'm reminded of grade school where my classmates would have fun by seeing how many times they could hit me without an adult seeing it happen....
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

MADMANMIKE wrote:You guys are just doing this over and over again to get me, right?

Nothing in any of the descriptions (nor in anything I've said) suggests that physical contact with a circle is necessary. Nothing. Nowhere.

MADMANMIKE wrote:Nonsense. A 2-dimensional circle does not need to transform into a 3-dimensional shape; it's effects have been described as affecting the 3rd dimension. As anyone and anything inside the circle exists in the 3rd dimension, and anything that the circle is made to protect from also exists within the 3rd dimension, it should be obvious that the effects cannot be cheated by simply not 'touching' the 2-dimensional circle. Nowhere in any of the three descriptions does it say anything about physical contact.


No im not baiting you but am just trying to understand your position, and if Hotrod is right (the person protected has to intersect the plane of the circle and they are protected is a good supposition, but you still seem to be ignoring the bits I was mentioning as a counter to its just a 2d plane. This is right out of the book, p 138 about 1/3 of the way down

Leaning into the circle to attack, while actually standing just outside the circle, will have the same effects as above because the attacker is leaning part of his body into the circumference of the magic circle.
This means his arm is crossing above the 2d plane and still getting affected by the circle, he isn't actually in the circles 2d plane of effect, which means the 2d plane is actually 3d and goes up, nothing that you have said (as I understand it mind you) negates this bit, or the barrier statement really, that's why im arguing, but I could have your meaning wrong still.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

kiralon wrote:
MADMANMIKE wrote:You guys are just doing this over and over again to get me, right?

Nothing in any of the descriptions (nor in anything I've said) suggests that physical contact with a circle is necessary. Nothing. Nowhere.

MADMANMIKE wrote:Nonsense. A 2-dimensional circle does not need to transform into a 3-dimensional shape; it's effects have been described as affecting the 3rd dimension. As anyone and anything inside the circle exists in the 3rd dimension, and anything that the circle is made to protect from also exists within the 3rd dimension, it should be obvious that the effects cannot be cheated by simply not 'touching' the 2-dimensional circle. Nowhere in any of the three descriptions does it say anything about physical contact.


No im not baiting you but am just trying to understand your position, and if Hotrod is right (the person protected has to intersect the plane of the circle and they are protected is a good supposition, but you still seem to be ignoring the bits I was mentioning as a counter to its just a 2d plane. This is right out of the book, p 138 about 1/3 of the way down

Leaning into the circle to attack, while actually standing just outside the circle, will have the same effects as above because the attacker is leaning part of his body into the circumference of the magic circle.
This means his arm is crossing above the 2d plane and still getting affected by the circle, he isn't actually in the circles 2d plane of effect, which means the 2d plane is actually 3d and goes up, nothing that you have said (as I understand it mind you) negates this bit, or the barrier statement really, that's why im arguing, but I could have your meaning wrong still.


If you're not going to read my responses, why do you continue to address me? Or is it like I've suggested and you guys are deliberately interpreting what I've said to mean the exact opposite of what it clearly means?
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

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MADMANMIKE wrote:If you're not going to read my responses, why do you continue to address me? Or is it like I've suggested and you guys are deliberately interpreting what I've said to mean the exact opposite of what it clearly means?


Obviously it's not clear enough for them.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by eliakon »

MADMANMIKE wrote:
kiralon wrote:
MADMANMIKE wrote:You guys are just doing this over and over again to get me, right?

Nothing in any of the descriptions (nor in anything I've said) suggests that physical contact with a circle is necessary. Nothing. Nowhere.

MADMANMIKE wrote:Nonsense. A 2-dimensional circle does not need to transform into a 3-dimensional shape; it's effects have been described as affecting the 3rd dimension. As anyone and anything inside the circle exists in the 3rd dimension, and anything that the circle is made to protect from also exists within the 3rd dimension, it should be obvious that the effects cannot be cheated by simply not 'touching' the 2-dimensional circle. Nowhere in any of the three descriptions does it say anything about physical contact.


No im not baiting you but am just trying to understand your position, and if Hotrod is right (the person protected has to intersect the plane of the circle and they are protected is a good supposition, but you still seem to be ignoring the bits I was mentioning as a counter to its just a 2d plane. This is right out of the book, p 138 about 1/3 of the way down

Leaning into the circle to attack, while actually standing just outside the circle, will have the same effects as above because the attacker is leaning part of his body into the circumference of the magic circle.
This means his arm is crossing above the 2d plane and still getting affected by the circle, he isn't actually in the circles 2d plane of effect, which means the 2d plane is actually 3d and goes up, nothing that you have said (as I understand it mind you) negates this bit, or the barrier statement really, that's why im arguing, but I could have your meaning wrong still.


If you're not going to read my responses, why do you continue to address me? Or is it like I've suggested and you guys are deliberately interpreting what I've said to mean the exact opposite of what it clearly means?

Okay. Pretend your explaining it to some one who has no idea how any of this stuff works....like say a brand new player.
We can all agree the circle ITSELF is effectively 2-D, its just lines on the ground.
What the rest of us are unclear on is what are the circles EFFECTS. (that is also the circle...just the spell part not the physical manifestation. This is like the difference between a fireball being a large ball of fire, and a fire ball doing X damge to y target(s))
What is the propagation of the effect? or
What is the definition of 'is in the circle' Do you have to have a portion of your mass intersect the 2-D plane? Or can you just be near it (say a butterfly flying next to the summoner)
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

I am definitely getting it wrong, sorry to sound dense, ill go through it step by step to see what im missing if you don't mind.

1. You are saying effect area is not a cylinder or sphere going up from the circle. (Im interpreting you as saying its not a cylinder or sphere)
is this yes or no (no is not a cylinder or sphere)

2. Lets say the circle is drawn on perfect flat and level concrete the inside of the circle is depressed slightly, so someone standing in it is about down a centimetre and isn't wearing shoes so the flat 2d plane of the circle actually crosses a body part (the extra bits are to stop the your above/you're wearing shoes issue) so that if you ran a taut piece of string over the floor it would hit you (so you're definitely crossing the up down y axis at the level of the circle, the circle is level for y is 0) it doesn't matter how tall you are you are in the circle so you are protected. (this is what I think you think because you say that)
MADMANMIKE wrote:its not a cylinder or sphere of effect it's a Circle of Protection, not a Sphere of Protection, and not a Cylinder of Protection.

and that means to me that you don't think the effect goes up above the flat play of the circle. I just wish I could draw a pic here to show what I mean better.

my argument to this is the baalrog standing outside the circle puts his arm inside the circle 8ft up and the protection circle still zaps him (he doesn't have to be trying to touch anyone protected and it still zaps him, which means you don't have to be cross the 2dplane of the circle (i.e. get touched by the string as it runs across the floor inside the circle) for the magic to get you as the arm is y+8 (circle is y+0)
I have a funny feeling we might be saying similar things without understanding each other

because the baalrog isn't crossing the 2d plane and is getting zapped above the 2d plane and isn't doing anything to a protected person inside, so the protection area would have to be a cylinder or sphere (where the arm goes in)
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

1. Nope. Never said that, never implied that, and in fact said the exact opposite multiple times.

2. This is as absurd as the original question. See the answer to 1.


For the last time.

Nowhere in any of my posts did I say that THE EFFECTS of a circle are 2-dimensional. I said that A CIRCLE is 2-dimensional and thus cannot become a 3-dimensional object such as a sphere or a cylinder.

IF YOU DON'T SAY WHAT YOU MEAN YOU WON'T MEAN WHAT YOU'VE SAID. <-- the most basic tenant of communication.

If you can understand that, you can go back over the three times that I addressed the intentions of the question asked, and see that I NEVER SAID THE EFFECTS ARE 2-DIMENSIONAL.

MADMANMIKE wrote:So instead of complicating matters by bringing other shapes like spheres and cylinders into it, logic should dictate that a creature that can be perceived as being inside a circle is thus. How do you observe whether something is inside of something else? You observe the dimensions of the circle and look to see if any part of the offending creature appears to be within said dimensions. Mind-bogglingly simple..


The only way to get confused is to not understand that as a 3-dimensional being, it is your perceptions that matter, not that of the 2-dimensional object (which of course has no perception, but if it did would surely only perceive anything above it's own 2-dimensional plane and thus within it's diameter {I'm loathe to do this, but I will refer anyone with questions of this notion to RIFTS World Book Three: England, pages 74-75, the description of the perceptions of a 2-dimensional being})..
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

kiralon and eliakon, it is irrelevant whether or not you were both intending to pick on me with this, as I choose to believe otherwise. So for my part I am sorry if I have offended.

As an autistic person, sometimes things get out of control. I've written an explanation here. Please read it and understand that I truly meant no offense.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by Lukterran »

I'm and not going to go search out the reference (because I don't have the time). However, all circles AoE are considered spheres (+10ft for lesser mobs). Effecting everything above, below or around. It has always been that way. The exception to this is the "pie shaped slice" of the summoning circle that is considered a protecion circle. It works more like a pie shaped cylinder.
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Re: Are Protection Circles spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

Lukterran wrote:I'm and not going to go search out the reference (because I don't have the time). However, all circles AoE are considered spheres (+10ft for lesser mobs). Effecting everything above, below or around. It has always been that way. The exception to this is the "pie shaped slice" of the summoning circle that is considered a protecion circle. It works more like a pie shaped cylinder.

I thought the pie shaped bit was where the summoner stood, and the rest of the pie was what kept the demon in, and i must say that the
"Leaning into the circle to attack, while actually standing just outside the circle, will have the same effects as above because the attacker is leaning part of his body into the circumference of the magic circle." bit has got me into thinking that its a column of unknown height.


EDIT: and madman mike sorry to caused you grief but you could have just said the heading was wrong, but all you did is confuse the hell out of me, and others picked up my meaning which you seemed to as well, but its now fixed.
(but on the good side you got me to examine the issue more thoroughly and take it in, i'm now pretty sure its a column that goes up, it looks as if my pc's were right, you can use this to interfere with the flight of demons or whatever you are protecting from as it doesn't give a maximum height above the circumference of the circle but just above. noooooooooooo)
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Re: Are Protection Circles area effect spheres or cylinders

Unread post by Hotrod »

If they are very tall cylinders, then you could do this:
1. Nail the protection from 'whatever' circle down to a round, wooden table.
2. Put the table on a pivot.
3. Point it at the 'whatever' and watch 'em scatter!

If circles are tall cylinders, then you could use them like a spotlight of "shoo, baddies!"
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Re: Are Protection Circles area effect spheres or cylinders

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Hotrod wrote:If they are very tall cylinders, then you could do this:
1. Nail the protection from 'whatever' circle down to a round, wooden table.
2. Put the table on a pivot.
3. Point it at the 'whatever' and watch 'em scatter!

If circles are tall cylinders, then you could use them like a spotlight of "shoo, baddies!"


Pictured someone going to the middle of the Old Kingdom, with the various protection circles on a large frame, just turning it in circles, sweeping the land with their protection... :lol:
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Re: Are Protection Circles area effect spheres or cylinders

Unread post by eliakon »

Mark Hall wrote:
Hotrod wrote:If they are very tall cylinders, then you could do this:
1. Nail the protection from 'whatever' circle down to a round, wooden table.
2. Put the table on a pivot.
3. Point it at the 'whatever' and watch 'em scatter!

If circles are tall cylinders, then you could use them like a spotlight of "shoo, baddies!"


Pictured someone going to the middle of the Old Kingdom, with the various protection circles on a large frame, just turning it in circles, sweeping the land with their protection... :lol:

Which is great reason to consider the 'tall cylinder' theory suspect. :P
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Re: Are Protection Circles area effect spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

it does intimate up with its language, so putting it on an angle would just reduce the area effect, because leaning over is above. Im imagining them now as big balloons attached to cable to inhibit things flying overhead, just like in WW2
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Re: Are Protection Circles area effect spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

but the idea of using a circle as an anti aircraft gun is also very amusing, but also pretty sure circles are like wards, and cant be put on portable surfaces for some reason (no premade rolled up carpets of summoning for example, just like no premade ward sheets)
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Re: Are Protection Circles area effect spheres or cylinders

Unread post by arouetta »

kiralon wrote:but the idea of using a circle as an anti aircraft gun is also very amusing, but also pretty sure circles are like wards, and cant be put on portable surfaces for some reason (no premade rolled up carpets of summoning for example, just like no premade ward sheets)


I don't believe there is any such limitation in the book. Many people have mentioned taking sewing twice to get tailoring in order to make rugs with summoning circles that can be created at a ley line nexus (to get help with the PPE cost) and merely replace the components and pay the 40 PPE/60 PPE to reactivate it.
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Re: Are Protection Circles area effect spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

well looking at the requirements for most of the circles it would mostly preclude it anyway. eg a circle of protection from demons and devils has to be done with holy water or priest of light blood, and both of those would evaporate/dry out/dribble out of the circle and cause cracks, and the holy water would run if it wasn't on level ground, and other things needs dishes of salts or liquids that moving around might spill/fall out of circle. Another requirement seems to be for the circle maker to draw the circle, so maybe if they had a clay block with the circle impressed into it id certainly allow reduced creation time. Once activated that you might be able to move around, but im not going to suggest that to anyone, but im sticking to the goes straight up idea.

But the idea really isn't anymore ridiculous than a 1st level priest of Od being able to cast sanctuary (or any other wizard spell for that matter) 14 times an hour on average (until the DM house rules it), or a level one psionicist doing a 20d6 blast to his first opponent of the day.
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Re: Are Protection Circles area effect spheres or cylinders

Unread post by Hotrod »

Aww, I really like the rolled-up carpet approach. To me, the spotlight trick is further justification for the circle being a sphere or hemisphere.

In any case, the portability requirement may not hold official water; I believe that there are ships that canonically have magic circles on them.
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Re: Are Protection Circles area effect spheres or cylinders

Unread post by kiralon »

the leaning into the circumference of the circle though points more towards a column, but when I have describe something pushing through a circles protection I describe the energy flashing with sparks in a hemisphere, and the hemisphere has problems with a 10 ft diameter circle and a 6ft circle creator.
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