Shield help

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Re: Shield help

Unread post by NMI »

ihuntzombies wrote:so it seems shields are so useless they left them out of the equipment section. As far as i can tell they give no AR bonus, so is the only way to use them is to parry with one?



Correct, they do not provide an AR bonus. Why? They are not making the armor you are wearing any denser or stronger or more resilient to impact and such. They are making you as a target harder to hit. Hence why you have the option to parry the attack[s] and if you the appropriate skills/training, get some bonuses to boot.




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Re: Shield help

Unread post by Hotrod »

In terms of game rules, a shield is a pretty poor choice. Its bonuses to parry are matched by several W.P.s that also give you much better damage. There are a number of house rules out there to make them a valid choice, but in the rules as written, they're just not worth it.

A wooden one can serve as a so-so flotation device in a pinch. That's about it.

Here's a good discussion we had a while back on the topic.
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by Library Ogre »

You are correct; Palladium SEVERELY undervalues shields.

If I were to stay in Palladium to fix shields, I'd give them a default bonus to parry (regardless of WP), and a better chance of blocking distance shots (allowing automatic parry against arrows and the like).

So, you might go with:

Small shields are +2 to parry, and may automatically parry arrows at -10.
Medium Shields are +4 to parry, and may automatically parry arrows at -5.
Body Shields are +4 to parry, and may automatically parry arrows at no penalty.

It's not fantastic, but it certainly gives you an incentive to carry a shield, since Palladium doesn't usually allow much in the way of defense against arrows.

(I would simply go with Hackmaster, though)
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by Glistam »

For a character actively using a shield, treat it as cover. It automatically takes the hit for the character unless the attacker makes a called shot. Then you use the shield to try and parry the called shot.
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Outside PF2, the place to look for text about shields in a SDC environment is in the equipment section of HU:AU books.
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by Glistam »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Outside PF2, the place to look for text about shields in a SDC environment is in the equipment section of HU:AU books.

Okay. From page 191 of Aliens Unlimited:

Shields
All shields are small and light. Shields have no A.R. rating because they are used to directly counter an attack. They either block it or they don't. Shields give their user +2 to parry in melee combat. Projectiles and energy blasts can also be parried, but at -6 due to their high speeds of travel. Laser resistant coatings can be applied to shields to reflect them without damage to the shield. Kisentite shields are very expensive. A Kisentite shield only suffers damage when parrying energy weapons or other Kisentite weapons. A shield suffers damage only on a "called" shot that is directed at the shield itself.
Costs: Typical metal and ceramic shields cost about 5 credits per S.D.C. to a maximum of 80 S.D.C. (400 credits). Kisentite shields cost 20 credits per S.D.C. point to a maximum of 100 (2000 credits).
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by Hotrod »

Kudos for the obscure reference from a different setting! An extra +2 is useful, and -6 is... I think... better than the default in PF2E. I wouldn't say that makes up for the other shortcomings for me to pick it, but it helps. Technically, it's a different game, and importing a different version of a skill from another game is technically house-ruling, but at least it's a quasi-canon bone to throw to this underfed skill.
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Glistam wrote:For a character actively using a shield, treat it as cover. It automatically takes the hit for the character unless the attacker makes a called shot. Then you use the shield to try and parry the called shot.


Consider that it doesn't have to be that active, though; after all, even if you're not actively using it, it's still a big hunk of interposing material in the area you're most likely to have targeted.
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by Glistam »

Mark Hall wrote:
Glistam wrote:For a character actively using a shield, treat it as cover. It automatically takes the hit for the character unless the attacker makes a called shot. Then you use the shield to try and parry the called shot.


Consider that it doesn't have to be that active, though; after all, even if you're not actively using it, it's still a big hunk of interposing material in the area you're most likely to have targeted.

True, but requiring it to be "actively" used prevents someone from deciding to tape a buckler to their chest and declare that all attacks hit that shield now automatically.
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by Tor »

Even chest-taping a buckler would be effective, though less so than actively moving it around.

As house-rule, I'd say shields should have a base AR bonus based on their size, and then supplement it with your roll if holding it in your hand and doing parries.

The AR base and roll should then stack with any armor your are wearing.

If someone rolls above the AR of the shield but below the stacked-AR of armor+shield then they hit and damage the armor. If rolling above the stack then they bypass both and hit flesh.

Now to figure out how natural AR from flesh should stack with worn-AR of armor and held-AR of shields... stumped about that.
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

I'm compiling a list of features that should be included in Palladium Fantasy Ultimate edition and have already wrote an outline for upgrading the Shield W.P.
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by Glistam »

Maybe take your shield Parry bonus (just the shield bonus, not the P.P. or HTH bonus) and add it to your A.R.?
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

Glistam wrote:Maybe take your shield Parry bonus (just the shield bonus, not the P.P. or HTH bonus) and add it to your A.R.?


Shields are not armor, they're a form of weapon. That said, the larger the shield, the better cover they provide.. So the missing factor is a clear definition of cover and how to use it in combat/with a shield. I'm on that.
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by Glistam »

MADMANMIKE wrote:
Glistam wrote:Maybe take your shield Parry bonus (just the shield bonus, not the P.P. or HTH bonus) and add it to your A.R.?


Shields are not armor, they're a form of weapon. That said, the larger the shield, the better cover they provide.. So the missing factor is a clear definition of cover and how to use it in combat/with a shield. I'm on that.

Seems like some people though want a shield to affect your armor's A.R., so that seemed like a reasonable way to do it. Shields are the only weapon that takes damage from doing its job (which is parrying), so while they may not be armor they certainly are not simply just a weapon, either.
Zerebus: "I like MDC. MDC is a hundred times better than SDC."

kiralon: "...the best way to kill an old one is to crash a moon into it."

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Re: Shield help

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

Glistam wrote:
MADMANMIKE wrote:Shields are not armor, they're a form of weapon. That said, the larger the shield, the better cover they provide.. So the missing factor is a clear definition of cover and how to use it in combat/with a shield. I'm on that.

Seems like some people though want a shield to affect your armor's A.R., so that seemed like a reasonable way to do it. Shields are the only weapon that takes damage from doing its job (which is parrying), so while they may not be armor they certainly are not simply just a weapon, either.


..hence the bolded, italicized words in my post you quoted..

Once the mechanics for Cover are clear, I'm sure the majority of players will be satisfied and will see the value of a shield.
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Glistam wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
Glistam wrote:For a character actively using a shield, treat it as cover. It automatically takes the hit for the character unless the attacker makes a called shot. Then you use the shield to try and parry the called shot.


Consider that it doesn't have to be that active, though; after all, even if you're not actively using it, it's still a big hunk of interposing material in the area you're most likely to have targeted.

True, but requiring it to be "actively" used prevents someone from deciding to tape a buckler to their chest and declare that all attacks hit that shield now automatically.


Which is why you come up with rules to handle it; Hackmaster uses a "Cover Save", based on the size of the shield. If a hit is rolled, you roll a d20. That number or higher, and it hits your shield (and does shield damage, which is usually insignificant).
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Re: Shield help

Unread post by Thinyser »

Glistam wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Outside PF2, the place to look for text about shields in a SDC environment is in the equipment section of HU:AU books.

Okay. From page 191 of Aliens Unlimited:

Shields
All shields are small and light. Shields have no A.R. rating because they are used to directly counter an attack. They either block it or they don't. Shields give their user +2 to parry in melee combat. Projectiles and energy blasts can also be parried, but at -6 due to their high speeds of travel. Laser resistant coatings can be applied to shields to reflect them without damage to the shield. Kisentite shields are very expensive. A Kisentite shield only suffers damage when parrying energy weapons or other Kisentite weapons. A shield suffers damage only on a "called" shot that is directed at the shield itself.
Costs: Typical metal and ceramic shields cost about 5 credits per S.D.C. to a maximum of 80 S.D.C. (400 credits). Kisentite shields cost 20 credits per S.D.C. point to a maximum of 100 (2000 credits).

I think this works pretty well in PFRPG, and even better with a couple minor amendments/adjustments:

-The +2 is for medium shields (-1 or +1 to this for a smaller or a larger shield) and is only applied if they parry with the shield (it should be obvious but I like things crystal clear if possible) and is on top of the bonuses given by the shield WP if they have it. This means anybody can get the bonus just for picking up and using a shield, while a skilled user gets more benefit.

-The -6 to parry projectile and energy weapons only applies to modern weapons. Ancient weapons like thrown daggers and axes, arrows, javelins, spears, sling stones, etc. are not penalized by the -6.

-Shields only suffer damage on a called shot and then they only suffer 1/4 of the damage the attack deals.
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