Examples of Summoners in play?

[kiralon]

Summoner has an elemental/demon/devil already summoned.
or has already summoned a powerful demon/devil who has got for him the +5 sword of ogre decapitation, or he forced the Raksasha to make him scrolls, or he has made a deal with a baalrog that if he looks in a little mirror/crystal/bowl of baby blood and says candyman 3 times the baalrog will appear and fight for him as long as the baalrog gets the loot and is allowed to eat the losing side, and maybe the losing sides relatives.

An unprepared summoner is like an unprepared fighter, if the fighter doesn't have his armour and weapons he isn't much good in the fight, if the summoner doesn't have his pet monster/s he isn't much good in a fight.

[Tor]

Level 4 summoner could summon Raksasha until he came across one who is a Wizard, learn that from him. Switch to Raksasha who is a Diabolist, learn that from him. Suddenly, you are an Alchemist.

[tmbn]

A summoner would be very usefull being in the background like the Wizard and controlling demons to the fight. Also he could add protection to his group. A summoner could be very weak at first but the higher level the stronger he his to the group. So its up the group to protect him at start. He only needs 4 rats i summon a Jiin! How badass is that!

Also he could have multiple OCC to cover some fighting skills.

[Reagren Wright]

The only problem is if you play a 1st level summoner, you can't summon anything until 2nd level. In practice you could learn
and create a Circle of Power, but you can't summon a squirrel.

[kiralon]

but at fourth level they can summon a baalrog/raksaha/demon locust/jinn. Seems to be a fair trade off to me.

[Tor]

only needs 4 rats i summon a Jiin! How badass is that!

Quite, especially since with them there's all kinds of contrived ways to "help" or "trap" them and make them owe you wishes, prevent them from harming you, and keep them around you like human (er, demon) shields, whilst freeing up the Battle of Wills slot.

The only problem is if you play a 1st level summoner, you can't summon anything until 2nd level. In practice you could learn
and create a Circle of Power, but you can't summon a squirrel.

Not true.

Even a level 1 summoner can summon an unlimited amount of pretty much anything, if they have the PPE and components for it.

The problem is that they can't CONTROL anything. At least not with pure willpower.

A summoner can opt to try and barter with something they summon, tame it through other means, sign a contract, etc.

[kiralon]

you would have to be desperate to summon a devil without the ability to control it, but what you do is summon a demon locust or one of the other tougher demons, and promise him his own personal demon army if he works for you, and then as tor states you just summon craploads of demons and let the greater ones deal with the problem of controlling them, (go to caer itom, control a baalrog, then summon heaps of lesser with the promise they can run amok and kil everyone and just use the baalrog for personal protection and forcing the lesser out onto the streets.

since most greater demons can dimensional teleport I never figured out what stopped one from coming back a few hours after you sent it back and killing you in your sleep, or murdering everyone in the town\village or any other combination. If I was a Raksasha and someone summoned me I would come back and destroy them after they sent me back.

[Nightmask]

The only problem is if you play a 1st level summoner, you can't summon anything until 2nd level. In practice you could learn
and create a Circle of Power, but you can't summon a squirrel.

Seriously? I haven't looked the class over in a while but it seems like that would be more than a bit wrong if they can't actually make use of the class they actually are until 2nd level.

[Tor]

Though it may be dangerous to summon demons/devils, summoning animals could be more manageable, you could build an animal-summoning circle inside a cage or pen and then sell the animals you summon to a butcher shop.

Person-summoning circles can also be used to kidnap people or engage in slave-trade, although you need more components than usual.

[Library Ogre]

Assuming you're not using spell books (which lets a 1st level summoner control a minor creature), then a 1st level summoner is difficult to use well, but not impossible. As mentioned, you can summon things, but not control them... so be careful what you summon, and be willing to either cut deals with the devil (literally), or summon something that will go your way.

Facing a great evil? Summon an Angel, apologize, and explain what's going on.

Summon a bunch of faeries, get into your protection from Faeries circle, and then let them harass your enemies.

Heck, summon a bunch of animals and simply sell them to a butcher.

[Tor]

What spell books would allow them to control a creature?

[Library Ogre]

It's an old article I did; I can't recall if it got into the Rifter, but I believe it did, and I know was in the MoM manuscript. Basically, spell books allow you to make and study your notes on certain effects (IQ/2 per day, requiring 15 minutes per effect, be it a spell or a circle or a ward phrase), you can cast them at one level higher, including additional control for a summoner.

(EDIT: Rifter Index says Rifter #40)

[Starmage21]

oooo summoners, my favorite class!

*hasnt posted in months, maybe over a year*

Level 1 Summoners are easy. You get a circle that by all rights would be more justified as a power circle, because it doesnt summon any creatures: Summon Elemental Forces

Make that circle on the back of your traveling wagon, its cheap to make. Enjoy using some high level very powerful spells right from level 1, with only the 5PPE cost to activate a circle as long as you can get to it.


When you hit level 2, the next cheapest circle is summoning gargoyles. Get yourself a gargoyle, make him be your bodyguard.

At level 4, the Baal-Rog is pretty much the stereotypical summoner minion. He doesnt even get any particular bonus to resist the battle of wills!

*edit*
Dont summon anything your group cant kill. Just in case a statistical improbability happens and the summoned minion wins the battle of wills.

You dont use PPE unless you're drawing circles, nothing keeps you from drawing the circle, and then coming back to it later in plate. Or summoning a minion, and then adventuring in plate.

[Library Ogre]

IIRC, elemental forces still requires you to win the battle of wills; I think it is specifically mentioned as a Minor, but I haven't looked at it in years.

[Lukterran]

Summoner is my favorite class, with Necromancer coming in second!

I will tell you that summoners kick a$$!. Even a first level summoner is very capable if you know how to play him. Yes you can't control minor beings yet, the summoner can still summon and also use protection and power circles! Not to mention the fact that they are usually skilled in arts of Lore and Magic knowledge which is greatly helpful.

Do not forget summoners have lots of really useful skills. With the megaversal combat system in 2nd edition it is still possible for a summoner to be a frontline fighter or archer even without magic powers.

Now about summoners specifically:

1. Do not ignore protection circles, especially using "sealed" circles. It is creates a invisible force field that prevents people from entering the circle that are aligned to it. it Reduce speed, all melee attacks, combat bonuses and skill performance by half! Any magic, psionic and bio-regenerative powers the intruder may have will not work inside the circle! Plus the intruder suffers 4D6 damage every melee round they stay inside the circle. And they have to safe vs. circle magic which is really high just to enter. Also protection circle componets are usually pretty simple (some can be drawn in any substance) and easy and can be made extremely large. You can seal both protection and summoning circles.
2. Don't get caught up on demon/devil summoning. Summoners can call upon a lot more than just demons and devils.
3. Summon and Control Elemental Forces circle can turn a summoner into an powerful mage that has double the range and effect using those wonderful elemental spells.
4. Like folks said summon animals is a good one. You don't need to control the animal to take advantage of this circle. Same thing goes for insects and serpents.
5. Once you are second level which will not take long. Some of the creatures summoners can control are better than a group of fighters or mages. I once completely unbalanced and destroyed all the NPC bad guys in a game with my summoner using a summon faerie circle to control a Nymph.
6. Elementals are the truely powerful force that a summoner can call upon. Forget the Demons and evil guys. Elementals bring more spells to bare and higher HP/SDC, PPE, combat bonuses, do more damage etc.... than most devils/demons. Lesser Elementals can be used until you can control Major ones.

The way to use a summoner is be prepared. Your not going to be creating circles in the middle of combat. Think strategically!

[Lukterran]

IIRC, elemental forces still requires you to win the battle of wills; I think it is specifically mentioned as a Minor, but I haven't looked at it in years.

Sorry Mark that might be your own personal rule, but as far as PF printed material goes there is nothing that has ever said that. SCEF is closer to a how a power circle functions than a summoning circle since there is no battle of wills.

Exactlly what did you think you are winning a battle of wills against? It is not the same as summon elemental circle or against an elemental being that has a will of its own. It's just raw magic and natural forces.

[Library Ogre]

6. Elementals are the truely powerful force that a summoner can call upon. Forget the Demons and evil guys. Elementals bring more spells to bare and higher HP/SDC, PPE, combat bonuses, do more damage etc.... than most devils/demons. Lesser Elementals can be used until you can control Major ones.

Also? Elementals don't misinterpret you for funsies.


However, I'll point out that page 140 specifically mentions forces as things subject to a battle of wills...
"Although circle makers would argue the point, there is no guarantee that the Summoner can control the creatures or forces he/she calls forth."

The only forces called forth from summoning circles are the elemental forces, so it would seem to indicate that. While otherwise elemental forces are not mentioned in talking about battle of wills, there's never an indication that they're exempt from the battle of wills. I wouldn't kick up a fuss if a GM ruled your way, but that's not my reading... anything summoned resists control. Elemental forces just have fewer ways to build up resistances.

[arouetta]

6. Elementals are the truely powerful force that a summoner can call upon. Forget the Demons and evil guys. Elementals bring more spells to bare and higher HP/SDC, PPE, combat bonuses, do more damage etc.... than most devils/demons. Lesser Elementals can be used until you can control Major ones.

Also? Elementals don't misinterpret you for funsies.


However, I'll point out that page 140 specifically mentions forces as things subject to a battle of wills...
"Although circle makers would argue the point, there is no guarantee that the Summoner can control the creatures or forces he/she calls forth."

The only forces called forth from summoning circles are the elemental forces, so it would seem to indicate that. While otherwise elemental forces are not mentioned in talking about battle of wills, there's never an indication that they're exempt from the battle of wills. I wouldn't kick up a fuss if a GM ruled your way, but that's not my reading... anything summoned resists control. Elemental forces just have fewer ways to build up resistances.

I would rule that there's no battle of wills, but that rainstorm could turn into a torrential downpour ruining the local village's crops when the summoner just wanted to water the fields. Thus meeting the lack of sentience/no battle of wills, but at the same time negligible control.

[Lukterran]

6. Elementals are the truely powerful force that a summoner can call upon. Forget the Demons and evil guys. Elementals bring more spells to bare and higher HP/SDC, PPE, combat bonuses, do more damage etc.... than most devils/demons. Lesser Elementals can be used until you can control Major ones.

Also? Elementals don't misinterpret you for funsies.


However, I'll point out that page 140 specifically mentions forces as things subject to a battle of wills...
"Although circle makers would argue the point, there is no guarantee that the Summoner can control the creatures or forces he/she calls forth."

The only forces called forth from summoning circles are the elemental forces, so it would seem to indicate that. While otherwise elemental forces are not mentioned in talking about battle of wills, there's never an indication that they're exempt from the battle of wills. I wouldn't kick up a fuss if a GM ruled your way, but that's not my reading... anything summoned resists control. Elemental forces just have fewer ways to build up resistances.

Interesting point. I still disagree. I really think he meant "forces" to mean "Forces of Evil" or "Powerful Forces" not specifically referring to this circle of SCEF in context of that paragraph. I still also don't believe it would fall under that "Control Limits" restiction and rules for controlling a lesser or greater being. It was specifically left out of that list which was pretty complete considering how many things a summoner can call upon.

Even so and if your GM ruled that a Battle of Wills was needed it wouldn't be hard for a summoner to win its battle of wills. They all have a minimum of 14 ME. So in the unlikely event you didn't win. SCEF wouldn't really do anything? Again your are summoning a force of nature that isn't a sentient being. So it would still be safer for a low level summoner to conjure up than anything from Hades or Deevil. Just get another hawk for a sacrifice and try again.

[Nightmask]

6. Elementals are the truely powerful force that a summoner can call upon. Forget the Demons and evil guys. Elementals bring more spells to bare and higher HP/SDC, PPE, combat bonuses, do more damage etc.... than most devils/demons. Lesser Elementals can be used until you can control Major ones.

Also? Elementals don't misinterpret you for funsies.


However, I'll point out that page 140 specifically mentions forces as things subject to a battle of wills...
"Although circle makers would argue the point, there is no guarantee that the Summoner can control the creatures or forces he/she calls forth."

The only forces called forth from summoning circles are the elemental forces, so it would seem to indicate that. While otherwise elemental forces are not mentioned in talking about battle of wills, there's never an indication that they're exempt from the battle of wills. I wouldn't kick up a fuss if a GM ruled your way, but that's not my reading... anything summoned resists control. Elemental forces just have fewer ways to build up resistances.

Interesting point. I still disagree. I really think he meant "forces" to mean "Forces of Evil" or "Powerful Forces" not specifically referring to this circle of SCEF in context of that paragraph. I still also don't believe it would fall under that "Control Limits" restiction and rules for controlling a lesser or greater being. It was specifically left out of that list which was pretty complete considering how many things a summoner can call upon.

I'd have to agree, 'forces' in the quoted passage would mean 'those beings you summon to serve you', whether it be a pack of wolves, an elemental, a demon, or anything else.

[Library Ogre]

Interesting point. I still disagree. I really think he meant "forces" to mean "Forces of Evil" or "Powerful Forces" not specifically referring to this circle of SCEF in context of that paragraph. I still also don't believe it would fall under that "Control Limits" restiction and rules for controlling a lesser or greater being. It was specifically left out of that list which was pretty complete considering how many things a summoner can call upon.

I think the "forces" reading is a bit disingenuous... you're deciding that the word doesn't mean something, without much evidence at that point. And, yeah, it's not listed as either major or minor, but that doesn't mean it isn't subject to control limits; Palladium is hardly known for being comprehensive in its writings.

Even so and if your GM ruled that a Battle of Wills was needed it wouldn't be hard for a summoner to win its battle of wills. They all have a minimum of 14 ME. So in the unlikely event you didn't win. SCEF wouldn't really do anything? Again your are summoning a force of nature that isn't a sentient being. So it would still be safer for a low level summoner to conjure up than anything from Hades or Deevil. Just get another hawk for a sacrifice and try again.

No, the battle of wills v. elemental forces is definitely an easy one... there's no real way to punish elemental forces in ways that would build up resistance modifiers, and since it's entirely summoner-directed, it's easy to dismiss and resummon... though there's also the issue of building the circle in the first place. You need one of each of the elemental gems AND a hawk to sacrifice... these are not cheap, especially when you can't just summon your way to them (you can't control the Earth Elemental you'd usually use to call up gemstones, for example).

[eliakon]

Interesting point. I still disagree. I really think he meant "forces" to mean "Forces of Evil" or "Powerful Forces" not specifically referring to this circle of SCEF in context of that paragraph. I still also don't believe it would fall under that "Control Limits" restiction and rules for controlling a lesser or greater being. It was specifically left out of that list which was pretty complete considering how many things a summoner can call upon.

I think the "forces" reading is a bit disingenuous... you're deciding that the word doesn't mean something, without much evidence at that point. And, yeah, it's not listed as either major or minor, but that doesn't mean it isn't subject to control limits; Palladium is hardly known for being comprehensive in its writings.

To be fair the reverse is just as much deciding that the word means something, with no evidence that it does either. After all the summoner table talks about the creatures you can control...*shrug* I think its going to have to go into "The GM is going to have to decide what works for their game baring something appearing in print at a later date." A point in the favor of it being its own special class is that the description says that you can summon forces to perform spells, and that you can have up to forces equal to your level active....this is of course totally at odds to the normal creature limits...but these forces also can only be controlled in the circle, again unlike creatures.

Even so and if your GM ruled that a Battle of Wills was needed it wouldn't be hard for a summoner to win its battle of wills. They all have a minimum of 14 ME. So in the unlikely event you didn't win. SCEF wouldn't really do anything? Again your are summoning a force of nature that isn't a sentient being. So it would still be safer for a low level summoner to conjure up than anything from Hades or Deevil. Just get another hawk for a sacrifice and try again.

No, the battle of wills v. elemental forces is definitely an easy one... there's no real way to punish elemental forces in ways that would build up resistance modifiers, and since it's entirely summoner-directed, it's easy to dismiss and resummon... though there's also the issue of building the circle in the first place. You need one of each of the elemental gems AND a hawk to sacrifice... these are not cheap, especially when you can't just summon your way to them (you can't control the Earth Elemental you'd usually use to call up gemstones, for example).

Well the components of a circle are reusable so you can just buy the gems once and your good to go.

[kiralon]

Titan stoneships FTW

[Tor]

When you hit level 2, the next cheapest circle is summoning gargoyles. Get yourself a gargoyle, make him be your bodyguard.

I prefer Gargoylites, wider range of abilities and can follow you into cramped quarters, more flexible guards.

At level 4, the Baal-Rog is pretty much the stereotypical summoner minion. He doesnt even get any particular bonus to resist the battle of wills!

Meh, too big for my taste, and potentially a lot of trouble.

If you hit 4, why not just go for a Greater Elemental? They have low ME so also very easy to fail their save, and if they DO save, they never seek revenge, they just ditch you. Plus they're capable of summoning their own squad of minions to assist.

[eliakon]

Titan stoneships FTW

Different Circle.

[Lukterran]

Titan stoneships FTW

Nice One! Good Reference

Ok, yes it is a different circle. Yet it goes into detail about what is potentionally meant by Elemental Force(EF). If an EF is actually an unintellegent grouping of major elementals then yes, it would indeed need to have a battle of wills and need to fall under the Control Restriction.

I do think that they are two completely seperate things/meanings. The EF that is discribed in the High Seas book is very powerful and a grouping of major elementals. There is no logical way that a summoner could use the normal SCEF circle if it fell under that normal Control Limitations. Since 1 EF would equal more Major Elementals than could ever be controlled. So using this reasoning. I am thinking that they are two seperate meanings of Elemental Force.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Titan stoneships FTW

Different Circle.

Combination of circles, wards, and elemental magic

[kiralon]

the wards and elemental magic are to control and shape it, the circle still summons it, and the summoner can not control it.
I wouldn't let a lvl 1 summoner control the forces and have the spells go off randomly or not at all. If it was a power circle I would let him, but as its a summon circle id apply the rules for what summoned things you can control at level 1 is (none).

[eliakon]

the wards and elemental magic are to control and shape it, the circle still summons it, and the summoner can not control it.
I wouldn't let a lvl 1 summoner control the forces and have the spells go off randomly or not at all. If it was a power circle I would let him, but as its a summon circle id apply the rules for what summoned things you can control at level 1 is (none).

That is a different circle though. That was my point. its a MODIFIED circle of summon elemental forces, that was changed, part of which was that they made it external not internal. Thus it has no bearing on the standard unmodified circle.
Which I note, has no comments about level. And if it DOES take a 'level slot' do you allow the summoner to use the magic when not in the circle (Since he has 'bound it). If not they why not? he doesn't have to stay in the circle to control his Gargoyle....And does each of those "can have one spell per level at the same time" thing mean that the whole circle takes up a 'slot' or each spell? is it a greater or lesser creature? Or perhaps its not a creature, doesn't take up a slot, and uses its own rules instead of the (IMHO) irrelevant rules about creatures?

[Library Ogre]

No, the battle of wills v. elemental forces is definitely an easy one... there's no real way to punish elemental forces in ways that would build up resistance modifiers, and since it's entirely summoner-directed, it's easy to dismiss and resummon... though there's also the issue of building the circle in the first place. You need one of each of the elemental gems AND a hawk to sacrifice... these are not cheap, especially when you can't just summon your way to them (you can't control the Earth Elemental you'd usually use to call up gemstones, for example).

Well the components of a circle are reusable so you can just buy the gems once and your good to go.

Go ahead. Reuse the hawk.

[kiralon]

that's what druids are for

[eliakon]

No, the battle of wills v. elemental forces is definitely an easy one... there's no real way to punish elemental forces in ways that would build up resistance modifiers, and since it's entirely summoner-directed, it's easy to dismiss and resummon... though there's also the issue of building the circle in the first place. You need one of each of the elemental gems AND a hawk to sacrifice... these are not cheap, especially when you can't just summon your way to them (you can't control the Earth Elemental you'd usually use to call up gemstones, for example).

Well the components of a circle are reusable so you can just buy the gems once and your good to go.

Go ahead. Reuse the hawk.

Components of the Circle (what is used to make it), not the Sacrifice (what is used to activate it). There is a difference. (although I guess if you had some resurrection magic you could reuse the sacrifice too.....)

[Lukterran]

No, the battle of wills v. elemental forces is definitely an easy one... there's no real way to punish elemental forces in ways that would build up resistance modifiers, and since it's entirely summoner-directed, it's easy to dismiss and resummon... though there's also the issue of building the circle in the first place. You need one of each of the elemental gems AND a hawk to sacrifice... these are not cheap, especially when you can't just summon your way to them (you can't control the Earth Elemental you'd usually use to call up gemstones, for example).

Well the components of a circle are reusable so you can just buy the gems once and your good to go.

Go ahead. Reuse the hawk.

Most animal sacrifices are really easy for summoners to get. All they need is the animals blood that you are attempting to summon and a sacrifice and you have the components for Summon Animal Circle. So if you just killed a hawk failing a SCEF you have half the componets at the ready to acquire another sacrifice.

Most animal blood is easy to come by also. You can get most domesticed animal blood from any town or village. Most temples in Palladium practice blood sacrifices of animals as part of their worship so that is another source and you always have Alchemists and magic shops and witch doctors/shaman types that have animal blood.

A must have spell for a summoner is "Summon & Control Animals"!! There are "forces" that that summoner can control that know that spell and can cast it for him. (aka Major Earth Elemental. Not to mention summoning canines and rodents. So at level 4 you are set! No worrying about getting sacrifices anymore for the summoner.)

[Library Ogre]

Most animal sacrifices are really easy for summoners to get. All they need is the animals blood that you are attempting to summon and a sacrifice and you have the components for Summon Animal Circle. So if you just killed a hawk failing a SCEF you have half the componets at the ready to acquire another sacrifice.

How much blood do you think is in a hawk? You've got to have enough to draw the circle, and a hawk doesn't have that much.

[eliakon]

Most animal sacrifices are really easy for summoners to get. All they need is the animals blood that you are attempting to summon and a sacrifice and you have the components for Summon Animal Circle. So if you just killed a hawk failing a SCEF you have half the componets at the ready to acquire another sacrifice.

How much blood do you think is in a hawk? You've got to have enough to draw the circle, and a hawk doesn't have that much.

How much do you think is needed? Its a good question since the amount of needed components is pretty...vauge is a nice way to say it. Can you use a small amount, and draw it with a pen in fine lines, or are we talking broad strokes. Do we need ounces or gallons?

[Goliath Strongarm]

Most animal sacrifices are really easy for summoners to get. All they need is the animals blood that you are attempting to summon and a sacrifice and you have the components for Summon Animal Circle. So if you just killed a hawk failing a SCEF you have half the componets at the ready to acquire another sacrifice.

How much blood do you think is in a hawk? You've got to have enough to draw the circle, and a hawk doesn't have that much.

How much do you think is needed? Its a good question since the amount of needed components is pretty...vauge is a nice way to say it. Can you use a small amount, and draw it with a pen in fine lines, or are we talking broad strokes. Do we need ounces or gallons?

Since there are no size requirements or limits, it only has to be big enough to fit the symbols and give the summoner room to stand. I'd say it would probably take three hawks, minimum.

[Lukterran]

Most animal sacrifices are really easy for summoners to get. All they need is the animals blood that you are attempting to summon and a sacrifice and you have the components for Summon Animal Circle. So if you just killed a hawk failing a SCEF you have half the componets at the ready to acquire another sacrifice.

How much blood do you think is in a hawk? You've got to have enough to draw the circle, and a hawk doesn't have that much.

Well with my five minutes of internet research I have found that the volume of blood in most avians is 10% of their body weight.

"Hawk" is a very general term that is used to discribe predatory birds. They can be as small as 4 ounces up to 13 lbs.

So for the sake of keeping things reasonable lets use a Red-tailed Hawk as an example. It weights about 1.5 to 3.5 lbs. So split the difference and it is 2.5 lbs (on average). Which would be about 4 ounces of blood per bird (3.834 ounce is what I came up with).

Most paint tube supplies come in 37ml sizes. So 4 ounces of blood that would give you about 3 tubes worth of painting which I think would be enough to make one circle. As long as the summoner doesn't go crazy with large lines and huge circle sizes.

[Library Ogre]

Most animal sacrifices are really easy for summoners to get. All they need is the animals blood that you are attempting to summon and a sacrifice and you have the components for Summon Animal Circle. So if you just killed a hawk failing a SCEF you have half the componets at the ready to acquire another sacrifice.

How much blood do you think is in a hawk? You've got to have enough to draw the circle, and a hawk doesn't have that much.

How much do you think is needed? Its a good question since the amount of needed components is pretty...vauge is a nice way to say it. Can you use a small amount, and draw it with a pen in fine lines, or are we talking broad strokes. Do we need ounces or gallons?

Rule of thumb? 1 pound (solids) or 1 pint (liquids) per foot of diameter of the circle, since drawing the circle also involves drawing the lines.

[Lukterran]

Most animal sacrifices are really easy for summoners to get. All they need is the animals blood that you are attempting to summon and a sacrifice and you have the components for Summon Animal Circle. So if you just killed a hawk failing a SCEF you have half the componets at the ready to acquire another sacrifice.

How much blood do you think is in a hawk? You've got to have enough to draw the circle, and a hawk doesn't have that much.

How much do you think is needed? Its a good question since the amount of needed components is pretty...vauge is a nice way to say it. Can you use a small amount, and draw it with a pen in fine lines, or are we talking broad strokes. Do we need ounces or gallons?

Rule of thumb? 1 pound (solids) or 1 pint (liquids) per foot of diameter of the circle, since drawing the circle also involves drawing the lines.

I like the simple rule to equal how much material componets are needed per foot size of circle. However, I disagree with the amounts.

16 ounce Paint

You're not painting your house. Circles normally don't completely cover an area. It is only the lines and symbols that need to be painted or drawn.

[Library Ogre]

Most animal sacrifices are really easy for summoners to get. All they need is the animals blood that you are attempting to summon and a sacrifice and you have the components for Summon Animal Circle. So if you just killed a hawk failing a SCEF you have half the componets at the ready to acquire another sacrifice.

How much blood do you think is in a hawk? You've got to have enough to draw the circle, and a hawk doesn't have that much.

How much do you think is needed? Its a good question since the amount of needed components is pretty...vauge is a nice way to say it. Can you use a small amount, and draw it with a pen in fine lines, or are we talking broad strokes. Do we need ounces or gallons?

Rule of thumb? 1 pound (solids) or 1 pint (liquids) per foot of diameter of the circle, since drawing the circle also involves drawing the lines.

I like the simple rule to equal how much material componets are needed per foot size of circle. However, I disagree with the amounts.

16 ounce Paint

You're not painting your house. Circles normally don't completely cover an area. It is only the lines and symbols that need to be painted or drawn.

And let's say you're making a 6' diameter circle... comfortable, but close, for a human to stand in with another human. Your lines are 1" thick, because leaving gaps is bad.

This means you will need to paint 6*pi, or about 19 feet of lines for just the circle. You then need another 20 feet or so for the large X across the middle (giving you 2 feet on either side of the circle), and another 3-4' worth to cover the variety of symbols you need. Add in a 2'*3' cross in the middle and that's 48'*1" to cover it all; that's about 4 square feet of solid paint, spread out over over about 32 square feet of space.

According to Bankrate, you need about 5 ounces (1/3 of a pint; 1 gallon is 128oz, and you need 0.04 of that) to paint 4 square feet, when you're using thick paint on uneven surfaces. Lowes estimates a gallon will cover 200-350sq feet; at the low end, you're looking at about 25sq ft per pint. If you're using paint, you should be able to make a 18'-24' diameter circle with a pint of paint... when you're using paint.

But you're not using paint. You're using animal blood, which is a whole lot thinner. Now, I don't feel like rabbiting around for the difference in viscosity between blood and primer paint, but while blood may be thicker than water, it ain't NEARLY as thick as paint.

If you want to build a circle you can be proud of, and won't get your face eaten by demons, you're going to want about a pint per foot of diameter, or a pound a foot if you're using solids. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but there you have it.

EDIT: Did area, not circumference. Doesn't change the math too much, because I also forgot the cross, but annoyed me.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Most animal sacrifices are really easy for summoners to get. All they need is the animals blood that you are attempting to summon and a sacrifice and you have the components for Summon Animal Circle. So if you just killed a hawk failing a SCEF you have half the componets at the ready to acquire another sacrifice.

How much blood do you think is in a hawk? You've got to have enough to draw the circle, and a hawk doesn't have that much.

How much do you think is needed? Its a good question since the amount of needed components is pretty...vauge is a nice way to say it. Can you use a small amount, and draw it with a pen in fine lines, or are we talking broad strokes. Do we need ounces or gallons?

Rule of thumb? 1 pound (solids) or 1 pint (liquids) per foot of diameter of the circle, since drawing the circle also involves drawing the lines.

I like the simple rule to equal how much material componets are needed per foot size of circle. However, I disagree with the amounts.


16 ounce Paint

You're not painting your house. Circles normally don't completely cover an area. It is only the lines and symbols that need to be painted or drawn.

Well, that was a snarky and completely silly comment.

It would take 8 of those bottles to make a gallon. Don't now about you, but the last time I painted a room, it took me about 15 gallons. So, 120 of those tubes. Horrible comparison on your part.

Secondly, the circle has to be drawn big enough for the summoner plus whatever is being summoned. And all the little symbols have to be drawn large enough to be clear.

Also, take into account the fluidity of blood, it's not going to easily form the circle.

Think be for you post.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Mark, I bow to your politeness and actually using the math, and not just common sense.

[Lukterran]

The industry standard for paint coverage is 350 ft² per gallon.
There are 128 fl. oz. in a gallon, so 1 fl. oz. will cover (350/128) = 2.734 ft².
There are 144 in² per ft², so multiply: (2.734 ft²)(144 in²/ft²) = 393.7 in². (Round this to 393 or 394 in² as you see fit.) So now we know how much 1 fl. oz of paint covers.

Now on to circle size. You say 6ft in diameter. So that would be a circumference of 18.85ft or 227 inch.
The large X would have to be greater than the diameter to say 10ft for each line, or 480 inches total.
3 Smaller circles each about 2ft in diameter (being generious), total of 227 inches.
Now we have to large cross in the middle. 3ft by 2ft, total 60 inches.
Lets just say all the other symbols and stuff take as much paint as the main circle 227 inches.
That is 1221 total inches of paint coverage. Divide by 393. Which would mean the summoner would use just over 3 fl. oz of paint. I would say 4 fl. oz of paint would get your a 6ft circle. The 1 pint is about 4 times as much paint. I could agree to double it and give you half that 8 ounces and to make sure and get full coverage over rough materials but 16 ounces is too high in my opinion. Your summoners must like to get really artistic with their circles.

[Library Ogre]

I made a couple changes up there; not substantive, since the amount I miscalculated was made up in other parts I forgot... but the numbers did shift a little.

[eliakon]

The industry standard for paint coverage is 350 ft² per gallon.
There are 128 fl. oz. in a gallon, so 1 fl. oz. will cover (350/128) = 2.734 ft².
There are 144 in² per ft², so multiply: (2.734 ft²)(144 in²/ft²) = 393.7 in². (Round this to 393 or 394 in² as you see fit.) So now we know how much 1 fl. oz of paint covers.

Now on to circle size. You say 6ft in diameter. So that would be a circumference of 18.85ft or 227 inch.
The large X would have to be greater than the diameter to say 10ft for each line, or 480 inches total.
3 Smaller circles each about 2ft in diameter (being generious), total of 227 inches.
Now we have to large cross in the middle. 3ft by 2ft, total 60 inches.
Lets just say all the other symbols and stuff take as much paint as the main circle 227 inches.
That is 1221 total inches of paint coverage. Divide by 393. Which would mean the summoner would use just over 3 fl. oz of paint. I would say 4 fl. oz of paint would get your a 6ft circle. The 1 pint is about 4 times as much paint. I could agree to double it and give you half that 8 ounces and to make sure and get full coverage over rough materials but 16 ounces is too high in my opinion. Your summoners must like to get really artistic with their circles.

So one big hawk, or two three small ones would get you the needed amount of blood. (also assuming that your drawing in pure blood, and not using a bonding/thickening agent like the rabbit skin glue used to bond the dusts)

[Goliath Strongarm]

The industry standard for paint coverage is 350 ft² per gallon.
There are 128 fl. oz. in a gallon, so 1 fl. oz. will cover (350/128) = 2.734 ft².
There are 144 in² per ft², so multiply: (2.734 ft²)(144 in²/ft²) = 393.7 in². (Round this to 393 or 394 in² as you see fit.) So now we know how much 1 fl. oz of paint covers.

Except we're not talking paint, we're talking blood.
Viscosity of latex house paint is about 1500 centipoise. Blood is about 3.

Now, a 6 foot circle. (72 inch diameter). We will use one inch of thickness for all lines (makes the math easier!).

Circle: 2*r*pi is the formula for a circumference. In this case, that's 2*36*pi=72pi= approx 226 sq in.
The big X: 10 feet (two feet past the circle)=120 sq in each *2 lines =240 square inches.

4 circles at the end of the lines: say, 1 foot in diameter. That's 2*6*pi, or about 37.699 sq in, *4=150.8 sq in, rounded to 151.

Small circle on the line of the main circle: I'll be generous, and say 6 inches diameter. 6*pi= 18.84, round to 19 sq in. This also creates about 6 inches that can be subtracted from the main circle.

The cross in the middle: Say, 1 foot in the three sections, and about 2.5 feet into the last. So, 12+12+12+30= 66 sq in

Ballparking, we'll say that each of the three symbols (for this particular circle) require the same amount of paint as one of the outer circles. Some symbols might require less (like the triangle), some more (like the bull), but ~I~ think it's a good middle ground. So, now, 3*37.699=113 (rounded down) sq in.

226+240+151+19-6+66+113= 809 sq in., or about 67.4 sq ft, so, by the numbers posted by Luk above, we're talking about 24.65 fl oz of paint. Or, a little over 1.5 pints.

Now, that's for PAINT. We're not talking paint. We're talking something that has 1/500th the viscosity. Now, that doesn't mean it's going to take 500 times the amount, but it IS going to take 2-3 times.

So, while one pint might seem high, realistically (as realistic as you can be, talking about magic circles from a fantasy game), it's about right. If you want to go down to 1/2 pint per foot, I wouldn't disagree.

There is also plenty of different factors for various circles, so a "rule of thumb" is only a guideline.

There are also lots of ways that summoners could change some of the above math. Using a hard surface floor, with materials designed to hold the blood in exact location (basically, using a mold to hold the blood), you could get by with the 1.5 pints for the entire 6 foot circle.

[Tor]

Without knowing how thick a layer or how wide a line, I don't see how we could possibly estimate the blood needed for summoning circles.

Heck, in higher-tech settings they probably have 'blood pens' that substitute blood for ink and allow you to draw super-thin lines.

Even in PF though, I could see someone using a quill dipped in blood rather than a paintbrush if they really wanted to conserve supplies.

It'd be nice if there were some rules on how hard it was to scuff out a circle. You could make it harder for thicker lines or multiple thick layers of blood.

[eliakon]

The industry standard for paint coverage is 350 ft² per gallon.
There are 128 fl. oz. in a gallon, so 1 fl. oz. will cover (350/128) = 2.734 ft².
There are 144 in² per ft², so multiply: (2.734 ft²)(144 in²/ft²) = 393.7 in². (Round this to 393 or 394 in² as you see fit.) So now we know how much 1 fl. oz of paint covers.

Except we're not talking paint, we're talking blood.
Viscosity of latex house paint is about 1500 centipoise. Blood is about 3.

Now, a 6 foot circle. (72 inch diameter). We will use one inch of thickness for all lines (makes the math easier!).

Circle: 2*r*pi is the formula for a circumference. In this case, that's 2*36*pi=72pi= approx 226 sq in.
The big X: 10 feet (two feet past the circle)=120 sq in each *2 lines =240 square inches.

4 circles at the end of the lines: say, 1 foot in diameter. That's 2*6*pi, or about 37.699 sq in, *4=150.8 sq in, rounded to 151.

Small circle on the line of the main circle: I'll be generous, and say 6 inches diameter. 6*pi= 18.84, round to 19 sq in. This also creates about 6 inches that can be subtracted from the main circle.

The cross in the middle: Say, 1 foot in the three sections, and about 2.5 feet into the last. So, 12+12+12+30= 66 sq in

Ballparking, we'll say that each of the three symbols (for this particular circle) require the same amount of paint as one of the outer circles. Some symbols might require less (like the triangle), some more (like the bull), but ~I~ think it's a good middle ground. So, now, 3*37.699=113 (rounded down) sq in.

226+240+151+19-6+66+113= 809 sq in., or about 67.4 sq ft, so, by the numbers posted by Luk above, we're talking about 24.65 fl oz of paint. Or, a little over 1.5 pints.

Now, that's for PAINT. We're not talking paint. We're talking something that has 1/500th the viscosity. Now, that doesn't mean it's going to take 500 times the amount, but it IS going to take 2-3 times.

So, while one pint might seem high, realistically (as realistic as you can be, talking about magic circles from a fantasy game), it's about right. If you want to go down to 1/2 pint per foot, I wouldn't disagree.

There is also plenty of different factors for various circles, so a "rule of thumb" is only a guideline.

There are also lots of ways that summoners could change some of the above math. Using a hard surface floor, with materials designed to hold the blood in exact location (basically, using a mold to hold the blood), you could get by with the 1.5 pints for the entire 6 foot circle.

So add a thickener. Its already legal to add rabbit skin glue to components, which tells us that it doesn't have to be pure 100% substance to work. This suggests the simple expedient of adding the blood to a thin solution of glue to make a viscous 'blood paint' which puts us back at a few ounces. And of course there is still the whole question of 'how wide do you make the lines' and stuff.
SO.....I get the feeling it boils down to 'as much Blood as the GM and the Player agree is reasonable'

[Lukterran]

I like Marks rule. Keeping things simple easy to figure out. We don't want to do complex math during a gaming session.

I am figuring that summoners want to try and use the least amount of components as possible. Since componets are both expensive, hard to come by and can be difficult to store and transport. So since summoners probably have a "waste not, want not" mentallity, the quantites stated in pints and lbs seem a little high to me. (Also I agree other additives that are cheaper that don't effect the magic would be used to get the most out of the materials.)

Although some circles really do need to be huge. Like most angel, demon and elemental summoning circles since the creature being summoned is very large. But circles that are summoning small creatures like, small animals, faeries, and other smaller monsters could be made with less materials.

I think more accurate rule would be closer to 2 ounces of (solids) or (liquids) per foot of diameter of the circle. So a 6 ft diameter circle would be 12 ounces; or a 18 ft circle would be 2.25 pints of liquid. That number allows for some "slop" and odd surfaces for the materials to be drawn upon, yet is still very reasonable.

Those amounts could vary some but I would not go any higher than 4 ounces per foot of diameter the circle. Even in the most extreme cases.

[Library Ogre]

Without knowing how thick a layer or how wide a line, I don't see how we could possibly estimate the blood needed for summoning circles.

Heck, in higher-tech settings they probably have 'blood pens' that substitute blood for ink and allow you to draw super-thin lines.

Even in PF though, I could see someone using a quill dipped in blood rather than a paintbrush if they really wanted to conserve supplies.

It'd be nice if there were some rules on how hard it was to scuff out a circle. You could make it harder for thicker lines or multiple thick layers of blood.

In the MoM manuscript, I ruled that an active circle more or less required deliberate scuffing to scuff but, barring specific actions to protect, could be scuffed out easily... otherwise, summon elemental forces had a good chance to cancel itself out as you call down a thunderstorm and find your iron dust washed away.

I also had some rules about recovering components. Wish the stuff I'd written had seen the light of day.