Enounter Balance in PFRPG

[dcfitch]

What criteria do you use to balance a combat encounter in Palladium Fantasy? There are no strict reference points for this like in other games (like hit dice, challenge level, etc.), so how do you try to balance an encounter? I am not a believer in over emphasizing balance, I just would like a ballpark reference.

[Noon]

It's probably good to find it by running an encounter you are pretty certain they will defeat handily. Keep a record of it and note how easily they defeat it. Have another one already prepared that you think would be more powerful (but at a guess, not by a huge margin). If you guess the second encounter might be too powerful, trim off some forces.

Also their's more organic balancing - maybe the PC's could attract the attention of some of the enemy, drawing them away and fighting them alone. Maybe theirs a way to get a sneak attack on the enemy. Maybe the PC's can set up cover and some trap so that it's hard to shoot arrows at them and any melee fighters charging them get hit by a trap. Ie, ways the PC's can modify the balance of the encounter themselves (note: Sometimes you might have to have an NPC hint at this stuff as players are in too much of a 'march straight at it because they expect everything to be balanced already' mode of thinking)

[dcfitch]

Good advice. I guess I have just gotten lazy due to systems like Pathfinder and D&D, that balanced things out for you. Then again, I hated the over emphasis on balance.

[Eashamahel]

Yeah, except in things like Pathfinder if you don't want to run the 'balanced' encounter, there are guidelines on how to run a more difficult/'challenging' one, as well as a legendary one, and it's simple math beyond that to make more difficult ones if you so choose (though it's unlikely necessary...). The system in no way forces your hand, it just gives you a clear, easily modified outline, so there's not really a lot of need to 'hate' on anything.


Start with enemies that have more SDC than average, but do low damage. That way they are unlikely to fluke out and get lucky/kill characters right of, but will also be tough enough to survive a '20' or two and let the PC's learn to work together, while you can work on the dramatic elements of the fight. Avoid giving NPC's anything like increased critical ranges or Deathblows.

[dcfitch]

Good advice...and thank you for the correction on what I am and am not allowed to hate.

[dcfitch]

And just for info, I own every Pathfinder hardback and many other products. So, my initial statement was an intentional overstatement. Pathfinder is a great game and, in my opinion, the worthiest edition of D&D to date. Anyway, like I said before, your advice is very good and much appreciated.

[Lukterran]

There are so many factors it is hard to say a formula for balancing an encounter.

I personally as a GM just use a Bell Curve for almost all NPCs in the world. Assuming that most are low to mid levels and fewer and fewer high level NPCs.

That said; I have found that a typical PC can normal handle no more than about 3 NPCs of equal level and ability in an encounter. So if you have a group of 5 or 6 it would be about a 15-18 max on same power level NPCs.

Now, when you start adding in thing like magic users, dragons, and supernatural creatures (demons and elementals) you lose most balance. It is really is up to the GM to either pull some punches or ramp up the danger for the PCs. Since PC aren't balanced either there really isn't a one size fits all answer.

[Eashamahel]

Another good trick to use, especially in Palladium (and all Palladium games), is the 'floating stats' system.

Since most attributes don't really matter (unless they are exceptional, so maybe an NPC has a PE of 8 and rolled three '1's' for his HP in three levels?), and the possible difference between things like SDC/HP is so great (maybe this NPC has Weightlifting and Boxing and so has 2x the SDC he normally would?), you can leave NPCs not entirely worked out, and assume they are in a certain range of abilities (ie 'HP:10-15, SDC:10-35'). If your PC's are hammering on them, then go with the higher numbers, if they're getting beat, the lower ones. A note though, this idea works really well with toughness, not so well with bonuses, as changing a creatures toughness mid battle has very little game effect (and PC's shouldn't even be able to tell as long as the opponent is still in it's SDC) whereas changing it's bonuses/attacks tends to be obvious.

[The Dark Elf]

Start high and scale down if you are killing the players and dont really want this fight to be overly hard.

the above high SDC, low damage output is useful.

The best thing to do ofc, is to playtest an encounter! Otherwise, in game start with small minor encounters and work ur way up until you know what monster(s)/NPCs are at the characters level - AKA dip your toe in the water.

[Library Ogre]

Generally, if you want a balance encounter, plan one person per fighter-type in your party, and one and a half per combat-capable caster, and half per non-combat capable caster. Generally, count ogres, trolls, and giants at another half a person, either offensively or defensively.

Why? Because of damage output and absorption. Generally, most of the races are pretty balanced with each other... the vagaries of dice aren't so big that a wolfen counts a heck of a lot more than a human (despite the higher strength and weapon damage; they still average about PS 14).

Big monsters change things a bit, but it works well for humanoid-scale games.

[Lord_Dalgard]

Hey, i made the mistake once of converting an AD&D for PFRPG and forgot that armor in PF has SDC when converting. A goblin with a AC 7 (leather armor) in PFRPG is a bit tougher and goblin elite guards in maille are even tougher. Oops. with

[Lord_Dalgard]

True, but if you're not rolling well, lol.

[zyanitevp]

Generally, if you want a balance encounter, plan one person per fighter-type in your party, and one and a half per combat-capable caster, and half per non-combat capable caster. Generally, count ogres, trolls, and giants at another half a person, either offensively or defensively.

Why? Because of damage output and absorption. Generally, most of the races are pretty balanced with each other... the vagaries of dice aren't so big that a wolfen counts a heck of a lot more than a human (despite the higher strength and weapon damage; they still average about PS 14).

Big monsters change things a bit, but it works well for humanoid-scale games.

Agreed, with approximately balanced level- right now my PC's are level 9-13, and those high levels make a huge difference!

[pblackcrow]

What criteria do you use to balance a combat encounter in Palladium Fantasy? There are no strict reference points for this like in other games (like hit dice, challenge level, etc.), so how do you try to balance an encounter? I am not a believer in over emphasizing balance, I just would like a ballpark reference.

Ask yourself:
1. Does the plot have a time schedule? And if so, should they take the time to do this?
2. Is this encounter part of a plot, can it be seen as part of a sub plot, or is it something completely random? (I very RARELY use random things...I have always hated them, with the exception of when you're traveling in a forest!)
3. Can it potentially aid or hinder the character(s) with a resources (cursed or uncursed), clues (factual or false), or whatever by killing, capturing, talking to, recovering, or rescuing who or whatever?
4. Can it be obviously over all useful to them?...Like encountering a traveling apothecary, wing tip, or whatever.
5. Should it be potentially deadly or something to make then wonder?

[Cinos]

I rarely make a meaningful attempt to balance encounters in Palladium games, in part because there is litterally no guidance other than personal experience with the game and the group you're GMing for (with an accountance for any optional rules or house rules you're using), and in part because I don't think this game balances particularly well. This is not a bad thing at heart, just a thing about the system. One of the things it does well as a system is that most things generally follow the same character creation rules, even if the numbers vary from race to race or different levels, it's still largely race + class + level. Which makes things a little simpler, since there is less abstraction to do when eyeballing encounters.

Instead, I just put whatever I think makes sense for that event or fight. Mid level merchant guards? Sure, like six to eight of them all together, generally low to mid ranged, a few guys with bows, a few with heavier armor and melee weapons along with a caster with some anti-deception tricks (see invisible, magic barriers, etc, maybe a diabolist instead). A small scouting party for the wolfens? Half dozen Kankorans maybe, handful of Coyte rangers and ten to twenty wolfen soldiers and a mage or so.

I just leave it to my players if they think they can run headlong into it, or need to go about things more carefully, or just avoid it all together and see they're not on a footing well enough to match it.

[Alrik Vas]

The best way to balance things is to remind the players that they aren't homicidal tomb-raiders and that sometimes, just sometimes, not messing with something is much better than challenging it head on.

[Eashamahel]

Cinos, that is pretty much exactly how I do encounters in all Palladium games.

[Noon]

When the players have no other place to necessarily go, it doesn't particularly work as players will stay in a unwinable fight rather than the alternative - which is to do nothing.

[kiralon]

I usually have 1 or 2 outs for any given scenario where the lives of the players depends on dice rolls. As I do heroic fantasy characters generally won't die unless the players have an active hand in it, like stick their head down the throat of an angry dragon to see if the magic ring somehow got stuck on a tooth. I will maim, loot and torture pc's, but I wont kill them. The exception to this is the boss fights, if you die, you are dead and if the party cant res ya well bad luck. This is because I write fairly convoluted plots that involve all the characters, and if one dies it means a lot more work for me.

[Library Ogre]

leather armor is hardly that big of a deal .. low armor rating means most big rolls will hit straight to hit points.

It's an essential flaw of the design... basically, with low AR armor (or high attack bonuses and a bit of luck), it's easy to leave a suit of pristine armor with a bleeding corpse inside.

My homebrewed change was to make armor absorb damage based on AR-4, but only absorb as many points of damage as it had.

So Cloth, usually AR 5 SDC 6, will absorb 1 point per hit (AR 5 - 4), for up to 6 hits (6 SDC). An armor with AR 15 and 45 SDC will absorb 11 points per hit. If you do 10 points on a hit, your target takes no damage but his armor SDC goes down to 35. I also allow you, on a critical hit, either ignore armor or do double damage (or do double damage and ignore armor or triple damage, if you have a more advanced critical).

Hackmaster does something similar, which is why I've stopped using Palladium and just play Hackmaster.

[Hotrod]

You can always try leaning on your players to exercise discretion, too. Not all encounters have to be thrust upon the characters. The "out pops a" trope, where the encounter is forced upon the party without them getting to make any kind of decision that can influence or shape the encounter until some preconceived decision/action point can be a bit tiresome, especially when the characters have senses, abilities, or pets that should work as early warning systems.

Giving them a look first puts the onus on the players to decide whether or not they think they can handle what they see coming. It's not a perfect approach, and I'm not saying that the players should decide what they'll face every time, but they should get a vote. This leads into another corrollary, that sometimes surrender and defeat is a valid option that players should exercise (and not necessarily have it thrust upon them), and not a game-ender.

[Noon]

Depends if it's having a look first or if it turns into 'well we get sneak attack and we buffed ourselves first and we get on either side to flank and...', ie it gets used to gain advantage after advantage.

But just having a look and either going in then or dashing away then is good.

[Cinos]

Yes, I generally never liked the Armor rating system esp when it discounted strike bonuses. After a while I generally treated natural roll for beating armor rating. Perhaps adding Dodge bonus to armor rating to determine if the shot hit or not might be a better option.

I've always treated a defensive action (a Dodge or Parry) to mitigate strike, the remaining total is then compared to AR (of course, if the strike hits 0, attack misses). It really makes AR useful throughout the power growth through leveling, without needing to overhaul a new system to make armor meaningful in the late game.

[kiralon]

I only allow weapon proficiency pluses to strike to count against armour (training to find weak spots)

[Alrik Vas]

Lets see...encounter balancing. Yeah, i makethe world, the PCs find their way in it or they die. Fortunately, they're smart sometimes!

For example, they get ambushed by about 30 orcs. They managed to kill about 5 of them while taking arrows and blows. They realize, "Hey, we're going to die..." so they bust out the blinding flashness and cut their way out, then run like madmen.

Another example, they come across a group of bandits, they're confident they can deal with them, but oh...here come those orcs again...they move so suddenly out of fear the bandits are like, "Hey, where are you going? You're not going to argue or threaten us or ...oh crap, that's a lot of orcs!!!" and the bandits bolt too haha.

Then later they come across giant monster bear demon...thing...they again run like crazy. it chases them and when they figure out its faster than them, they lure it off a cliff because their weapons and magic don't really do much (lots of SDC, good natural AR, made a save or two, the mage didn't get to cast much, he's the slowest runner). It made a hell of a thump.

Then moving through the forest, they come across ogre tracks...they immediately change directions so they cut the long way around the area, hoping to avoid the ogre, and they do.

Most of these things could have been handled by them if they had time to prepare, but they were in wilds they didn't know, so they did what they could, mostly running away and fighting only when necessary.

[Alrik Vas]

Oddly enough, it actually was D&D, but i run a bizarre ruleset. It's like a mix of D&D and Palladium, taking choice bits from Fantasy Flight's 40k games as well.

Mostly, creatures/characters have waaaaaaaay less HP, but armor grants damage reduction instead of extra SDC and you have to make called shots to bypass it, the called shots more difficult dependent upon the class of armor worn. So, a bunch of orcs who can parry attacks and gang up on you will ace you pretty fast...because you're outnumbered in the silliest of ways.

Granted, AoE spell damage is extra vicious in this ruleset, but magic is more rare to match the gritty rules.

[Library Ogre]

lol, if this was pathfinder, people would be like " I waste my healing surges on the orc who the player just brought to -1 so I can feel better about myself as a terrible waste of Elf skin" .. Er sorry just reconnoiting about horirble pathfinder games I was in...
the orcs would be dead if it i was d20 and they were the same level as pcs.

Healing surge is 4e, not Pathfinder.

[Lukterran]

leather armor is hardly that big of a deal .. low armor rating means most big rolls will hit straight to hit points.

It's an essential flaw of the design... basically, with low AR armor (or high attack bonuses and a bit of luck), it's easy to leave a suit of pristine armor with a bleeding corpse inside.

My homebrewed change was to make armor absorb damage based on AR-4, but only absorb as many points of damage as it had.

So Cloth, usually AR 5 SDC 6, will absorb 1 point per hit (AR 5 - 4), for up to 6 hits (6 SDC). An armor with AR 15 and 45 SDC will absorb 11 points per hit. If you do 10 points on a hit, your target takes no damage but his armor SDC goes down to 35. I also allow you, on a critical hit, either ignore armor or do double damage (or do double damage and ignore armor or triple damage, if you have a more advanced critical).

Hackmaster does something similar, which is why I've stopped using Palladium and just play Hackmaster.

Yup I have my own home brewed rules to to deal with the fact that Armor is mostly useless in PF with the current rule set.

ARMOR:
An unmodified roll that successfully hits above the characters A.R. inflicts full damage. A modified roll to hit above the characters A.R. inflicts one half damage to the armor and one half to the character. The exception to this rule is a successful called shot to a specific unarmored portion of opponents anatomy.

Otherwise by the Palladium standard rules armor is almost completely useless. However, you armor does tend to get trashed faster with these new rules.

[Library Ogre]

leather armor is hardly that big of a deal .. low armor rating means most big rolls will hit straight to hit points.

It's an essential flaw of the design... basically, with low AR armor (or high attack bonuses and a bit of luck), it's easy to leave a suit of pristine armor with a bleeding corpse inside.

My homebrewed change was to make armor absorb damage based on AR-4, but only absorb as many points of damage as it had.

So Cloth, usually AR 5 SDC 6, will absorb 1 point per hit (AR 5 - 4), for up to 6 hits (6 SDC). An armor with AR 15 and 45 SDC will absorb 11 points per hit. If you do 10 points on a hit, your target takes no damage but his armor SDC goes down to 35. I also allow you, on a critical hit, either ignore armor or do double damage (or do double damage and ignore armor or triple damage, if you have a more advanced critical).

Hackmaster does something similar, which is why I've stopped using Palladium and just play Hackmaster.

Yup I have my own home brewed rules to to deal with the fact that Armor is mostly useless in PF with the current rule set.

ARMOR:
An unmodified roll that successfully hits above the characters A.R. inflicts full damage. A modified roll to hit above the characters A.R. inflicts one half damage to the armor and one half to the character. The exception to this rule is a successful called shot to a specific unarmored portion of opponents anatomy.

Otherwise by the Palladium standard rules armor is almost completely useless. However, you armor does tend to get trashed faster with these new rules.

Not bad. How does that work with natural AR? Half damage if below AR?

[MADMANMIKE]

I often use my minion creation rules to stat the baddies; Basically they're a system for measuring the power of a character and distributing that into NPCs, useful for group/character minions and opponents as well. Link in my sig.

[Eashamahel]

Yes, I generally never liked the Armor rating system esp when it discounted strike bonuses. After a while I generally treated natural roll for beating armor rating. Perhaps adding Dodge bonus to armor rating to determine if the shot hit or not might be a better option.

I've always treated a defensive action (a Dodge or Parry) to mitigate strike, the remaining total is then compared to AR (of course, if the strike hits 0, attack misses). It really makes AR useful throughout the power growth through leveling, without needing to overhaul a new system to make armor meaningful in the late game.

I've done exactly this in the past in a variety of games, one of which was very high powered and this was about the only way for armour to be even mildly useful. It works very well.

It's also, amusingly, basically adding your prowess/bonuses (or your 'dexterity') to your armour protection (AR/AC) for attacks you were actively defending against, and leaves you using only your armour for protection on attacks you aren't defending (or are 'flat footed' against).

[Alrik Vas]

That's actually not bad. Though, most NPCs aren't going to have a PP bonus, yeah? I'd allow WP or H2H bonuses to apply maybe.

[Jerell]

leather armor is hardly that big of a deal .. low armor rating means most big rolls will hit straight to hit points.

It's an essential flaw of the design... basically, with low AR armor (or high attack bonuses and a bit of luck), it's easy to leave a suit of pristine armor with a bleeding corpse inside.

My homebrewed change was to make armor absorb damage based on AR-4, but only absorb as many points of damage as it had.

So Cloth, usually AR 5 SDC 6, will absorb 1 point per hit (AR 5 - 4), for up to 6 hits (6 SDC). An armor with AR 15 and 45 SDC will absorb 11 points per hit. If you do 10 points on a hit, your target takes no damage but his armor SDC goes down to 35. I also allow you, on a critical hit, either ignore armor or do double damage (or do double damage and ignore armor or triple damage, if you have a more advanced critical).

Hackmaster does something similar, which is why I've stopped using Palladium and just play Hackmaster.

I ran Hackmaster Basic, based on Tellene as I still had all the Kalamar books. I liked the count up system, but everyone really needs to be focused for the combat to flow. I ended up switching back to Palladium because my group just liked how it flowed better. I always thought the Monk class from HM4 was perfect.

As to the armor absorption, my PF GM was just considering adding rules very similar to that to our game. We had been discussing what to do to armor to make it better for a few months. I'm actually in favor of using the Compendium of Weapons, Armour and Castles(CoWA). It's often overlooked, but I think it's invaluable if you like to use the Resistance Factor verse a specific type of weapon as damage reduction. I also like how it also includes dex reductions with the different armor type as well. Using something like that actually makes carrying a warhammer or horseman's hammer worth while if you plan on fighting people in plate like knights.

ARMOR:
An unmodified roll that successfully hits above the characters A.R. inflicts full damage. A modified roll to hit above the characters A.R. inflicts one half damage to the armor and one half to the character. The exception to this rule is a successful called shot to a specific unarmored portion of opponents anatomy.

Otherwise by the Palladium standard rules armor is almost completely useless. However, you armor does tend to get trashed faster with these new rules.

I do like that. I think combining that with the damage reduction using RF from the CoWA would be perfect for my purposes. Now if I can just convince my PF GM.

[Library Ogre]

As to the armor absorption, my PF GM was just considering adding rules very similar to that to our game. We had been discussing what to do to armor to make it better for a few months. I'm actually in favor of using the Compendium of Weapons, Armour and Castles(CoWA). It's often overlooked, but I think it's invaluable if you like to use the Resistance Factor verse a specific type of weapon as damage reduction. I also like how it also includes dex reductions with the different armor type as well. Using something like that actually makes carrying a warhammer or horseman's hammer worth while if you plan on fighting people in plate like knights.

That's where I got the initial idea from; the quickie rules I posted were basically "Yeah, but that takes more work than we want to do."

[Eashamahel]

The other really simple jump to make for AR is to make the AR the number above the strike roll necessary to hit the target. Basically, if Leather armour is AR5 and it takes a 5+ to hit someone, than to hit someone in leather armour takes a 5 (the AR) +5=10. Attacks of 1-4 miss, 5-9 hit the armour, 10+ the person. It's not a great fix in that it doesn't make the SYSTEM better, it doesn't improve the issues of the system, doesn't add any realism, ect, but it does make armour useful, and is really simple.

This actually comes from someone I used to game with, who thought this was how the system worked until I informed him otherwise. To him, coming from D&D, characters generally had AC10 (the D20 roll needed to hit) + armour, and so when he read Palladium, he just assumed that base to hit number was effectively the 'AC', and armour stacked on top, which I have to say, isn't a ridiculous idea by any means.

[victor15065]

Just attack with whatever you want if its to much for them send in a NPC or cause a distraction or change their HP so they die faster I just keep the monsters alive until j think they did enuff damage screw the hp

[URLeader Hobbes]

Put simply I don't balance encounters in my games.

Some things the party should be smart enough to RUN THE HELL AWAY FROM!

The same mentality of "Don't break up the group" applies to encounters. Don't bite off more than you can chew. This actually plays into the EXP system of Palladium nicely as it forces the players to get creative in finding a way to equalize things.

Sorry but the party that picks a fight with the adult dragon before they are ready are gonna get what they were asking for..

Call me a Killer GM if ya want but I game with players who have been playing for a long time and should know better to bite off more than they can chew.