Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Jefffar »

Old punch was usually 1D6 if you were trained in combat, 1D4 if you weren't. The damage for melee attacks got upped with editions but the humble dagger didn't follow suit. On the plus side you do get the handy WP bonuses with the dagger and can parry armed strikes without injuring yourself or penalty.

Personally, based on my reading of the SDC rules, edged weapons should really do damage direct to Hit Points while blunt attacks have to batter down all that SDC first.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Extremely vague rule system?

The basic reason is that, unlike most other systems, Palladium doesn't have anything differentiating 'lethal' and 'non-lethal' attacks (also called 'bashing' and 'lethal' or 'blunt' and 'bladed', ect). That, combined with the SDC concept dramatically increasing someone's surviveability, means that some things are just silly. Now, Palladium books say to use 'common sense' to deal with issues like this, but it's impossible to both follow their system and use this 'common sense' (which is hilarious), so people often run into this problem of 'why X and not Y?'

I would love to actually have someone show me what the ever-loving heck a 'Karate Punch' is and why it does double the damage of a 'normal' punch, but since the answer likely lies in the game representing the 'cool' factor of asian martial arts (as well as it's origins in the '80's) the answers would probably just be either 'because' or descend into fanboy martial madness.



All that being said, it's not difficult at all to institute a 'lethal/non-lethal' system into PF, where 'lethal' attacks go directly to HP. It adds a great deal to the game, in fact (in my opinion).
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by The Dark Elf »

IMHO it's not that the dagger's are too low, it's that the kicks are too high.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by filo_clarke »

Abraxas wrote:But punches can be lethal too. There have been some boxing fights where someone died,
although the Boxers weared boxing gloves. It's rare, but it happened.


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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Pretty much all melee weapons deserve +1d6 damage, in my opinion. I also usually have edged weapons attack HP on a mod 17+, though any weapon can do it on a -6 called shot.

And punches are lethal...and painful. Avoid at all costs.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Abraxas wrote:But punches can be lethal too. There have been some boxing fights where someone died,
although the Boxers weared boxing gloves. It's rare, but it happened.



Boxing deaths occur most often due to brain bleeding, which is caused by a great amount of continual trauma. Heavyweight boxers land huge punches on each other, and if the possibility of single punches causing death were real, it would be apparent by now.

The rules of most fight sports also significantly limit the chances of strikes being fatal (and I don't mean by eliminating 'pressure points' or 'knife hands') by limiting striking areas (ie not to the back of the head, base of the neck, ect). This is reasonable, as you are unlikely to land attacks to those areas against someone actively defending themselves, however attacking someone who is not prepared/expecting an attack significantly increases your chance of injuring them (due to them not setting their posture, not being properly tensed, ect).

The other main possibility of serious injury occurring from punches comes from extreme weight/strength differences, which is clearly not a problem in fight sports with weight classes. This is kind of dealt with in Palladium already, as stronger people get a bonus to damage which theoretically makes their strikes more dangerous, it falls apart however in the fact that a strength of 16 only adds a +1, and that's a REALLY strong person for it only to add +1. In fight sports this additional damage would be countered by the additional SDC larger competitors have, but there is no rule where bigger guys have more SDC (or more apporpriately, that if you roll high on SDC/HP your character should be bigger and more robust).


Strikes cause death in street fights due to collapse by the way. You hit me, I get knocked out, I fall down and hit my head on the concrete. That's what kills me, not the hit, but the concrete. Combined with the fact that I am unlikely to go to a hospital after this, and if I don't immediately die, the brain bleeding will get me in a few hours.


The strike damage in Palladium is pretty silly, especially compared to the damage a weapon like a sword does, but it's clearly been made for Martial Arts fans to play to the 'cool' of it all, and not realism.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

Thanks for that, Eashamehel. It's been a long time since i've been in a street fight, or even in a competative ring. Then again, back in those days people didn't tend to get knocked out unless they didn't see the hit coming...anyway, it helps me put things back in perspective.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Yeah, it's often said 'the hit you don't see coming is the one that gets you', and this is very true. Proper positioning and posture is absolutely key to being able to absorb a hit without it impairing you, or even knocking you out. I don't remember if automatic critical's on strikes from behind are limited to a specific HtH skill, but if not, it would likely be a good rule (for unarmed combat only, putting a gun to someones head who is not aware you are there is clearly just an instant kill), as would allowing a character to use their modified roll (instead of just a natural 20) to achieve a 20 needed for knocking out an opponent if the opponent is already stunned or unaware of your attack (or otherwise incapacitated).
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

That's how i tend to do it as well. Though i let EVERY attack, regardless of what it is or what it is against deal double damage from surprise. It doesn't always fit, but i go with it because it gives the PC's incentives to plan ahead, which gets them killed less.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Jefffar »

filo_clarke wrote:
Abraxas wrote:But punches can be lethal too. There have been some boxing fights where someone died,
although the Boxers weared boxing gloves. It's rare, but it happened.


Agreed! The very concept of "Non-Lethal" attacks is difficult for me to understand. Killing someone by accident with a punch or a kick is a distinct possibility. The thing you get with a stabbing weapon is Shock and Blood Loss. Both of which are taken into account using the Penetration Value rules.


Except Melee weapons don't use those.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by filo_clarke »

Jefffar wrote:Except Melee weapons don't use those.


Maybe we have different printings of the Compendium of Modern Weapons. In my printing, on page 15 it lists the Penetration Value and Shock Factor for Arrows and Knives. The book is not specific as to whether the knives are being thrown, but you are technically correct, it does not say "Melee" use. However, it does use the term "stab wounds" which my group had taken to mean both melee and thrown. As per your ruling, we will no longer use this effect.

I apologise for my assumption that these attacks were "melee" and withdraw my original statement above.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Jefffar »

It describes arrows and knives as having a similar effect in terms of shock to guns with a PV of 1 or 2, but does not actually assign them a Penetration Value. No non-firearms are listed as having a Penetration Value in any Palladium book. The closet is the .22LR Firing Combat Knife, which, while a knife, fires .22L bullets and the listed damage and PV is consistent with those .22L rounds so the reference in the stats line is probably the gun component of the weapon.

So, no melee weapons have assigned Penetration Values and they do not follow the Penetration Value rules.

However, Knives and Arrows are mentioned in the context of the Shock Rules on page 15 of the Compendium of Modern Weapons, but no other ancient ranged or melee weapons are listed under those rules.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Seriously though Abraxas, give it a try sometime with weapons doing damage straight to HP. It's a wild difference, and you'll probably want to make lots of other changes as well to make it work (especially to the armour system), but I really think it's worth doing, at least once.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Jefffar »

That's kinda the point.

Makes thinking things through more important.

It also requires a certain level of agreement from the GM about when the fights escelate to lethal weapons and when folks just brawl. Though that's coming more from a HU point of view.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Also, as I said, you'll likely want to re-tool the armour system a fair bit. When characters don't have a handful of sword stabs worth of SDC to absorb otherwise lethal attacks, you start to see how poor the AR system is and how useless most armour is.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

I would think that penetration value would apply to bladed weapons, though. Just my opinion. I also think that if you are a martial artist punching with a weapon, then the damage should stack the same as adding PS bonuses. I might have to modify my house rules to reflect that.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

You mean someone using a punch-weapon, or that stabbing someone with a knife should do your punch+the knife damage?
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Eashamahel wrote:You mean someone using a punch-weapon, or that stabbing someone with a knife should do your punch+the knife damage?
Probably punching with a weapon. You will get more damage doing that than with a typical slash or stab. The damages really don't account for different types of attacks using a weapon that will do more damage.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

so basically just adding punch/hand to hand damage on to weapon damage? I *think* that's how Supernatural PS worked for a time, or that's how I thought it worked at least, as that's how I ran it in Wormwood for awhile.

I think in this case though, if you are going to add a +1D4 or such to all melee attacks that have at least 'punch force' behind them, there's probably a better, less cumbersome way, like perhaps just upping the damage of weapons by one die of whatever type they use.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by acreRake »

I'm really surprised no one's brought up the ongoing damage caused by bladed weapons. 2nd ed pg 19 (1HP per min)q
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Yeah, bleeding is a constant in most Palladium rule sets, but it's not something that is particularly hard to stop (given the right conditions of course), with First Aid, magical healings, even randomly minor psychic characters with a Healing ability. It's not that the weapons aren't (potentially) eventually lethal, it's that their immediate lethality is not where it should be, and thus they don't hold the threat they should.

For example, if a character is about to get punched, they might be worried about getting hurt. If a character is about to get stabbed, they should be worrying about getting dead.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Jefffar »

Problem with the blood loss rules is few fights last long enough in terms of game time for them to come into play and after the fights the characters are usually immediately tended to by healers or get otherwise patched up.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

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Because it's not about simulating things perfectly. It's about larger than life characters who go rampaging around having adventures.

Or so I assume.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by kiralon »

I always disliked that bows aren't scary weapons. The bad guy archer is 200 ft away and starts firing from a good position after saying drop your weapons. You walk up to him looking like this http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/i ... o_9495.jpg and feed him his bow, sideways and in reverse the normal method of eating.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

That's why i do it the way i do it, Kiralon. If you're unarmored a modified 17+ can spell your doom as the attack does straight to HP. However, i have AR work normal (mostly). When an attack breaches your AR, it affects your SDC as normal. When it's a critical hit, it then breaches armor and ignores SDC, going to HP.

-6 called shots always defeat both armor and SDC, however. So an expert weapon wielder (melee or ranged) can pretty much just kill people who don't effectively defend themselves.

EDIT: This is in addition to the additional 1d6 damage i grant all melee and ranged weapons.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Noon wrote:Because it's not about simulating things perfectly. It's about larger than life characters who go rampaging around having adventures.

Or so I assume.



Sounds good. What does get a little less than adventurous is when random Orc needs to be hit with a sword six or seven times (hit, not just swung at) before it goes down. Not very adventurous when every basic bad guy fight is more like chopping down a tree...
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Noon »

Eashamahel wrote:
Noon wrote:Because it's not about simulating things perfectly. It's about larger than life characters who go rampaging around having adventures.

Or so I assume.



Sounds good. What does get a little less than adventurous is when random Orc needs to be hit with a sword six or seven times (hit, not just swung at) before it goes down. Not very adventurous when every basic bad guy fight is more like chopping down a tree...

Unless you're talking about the idea of if you play a more larger than life character then you do more damage (which the riddle of steel RPG did and is a cool mechanic), then you're still just talking about simulating things perfectly - ie, the simulating how ever many strikes you think it takes to slay an orc. Which doesn't care whether the character is larger than life or not. It's a different subject than the one I raised.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Hotrod »

If you're going for a cinematic style of game, You could always assume Redshirt/Stormtroopers/Mook rules, where the "ash and trash" un-named enemies take damage straight to hit points, while the heroes take SDC, while putting the "boss" NPC's on an equal footing.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Alrik Vas »

I prefer super lethal for everyone, personally. Though mook rules work great for elves constantly one-shotting orcs with rapid fire short bow of doom.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Noon wrote:
Eashamahel wrote:
Noon wrote:Because it's not about simulating things perfectly. It's about larger than life characters who go rampaging around having adventures.

Or so I assume.



Sounds good. What does get a little less than adventurous is when random Orc needs to be hit with a sword six or seven times (hit, not just swung at) before it goes down. Not very adventurous when every basic bad guy fight is more like chopping down a tree...

Unless you're talking about the idea of if you play a more larger than life character then you do more damage (which the riddle of steel RPG did and is a cool mechanic), then you're still just talking about simulating things perfectly - ie, the simulating how ever many strikes you think it takes to slay an orc. Which doesn't care whether the character is larger than life or not. It's a different subject than the one I raised.



The point was, it seems unlikely that a 'larger than life' character who is 'rampaging' around is going to have to land a half dozen blows, with a deadly weapon (and land them, not just attempt them), to defeat random baddy A.

I mean, my Palladium Fantasy is a little rusty, but a random, 1st level orc baddy has probably what, 30SDC? 40? Considering a knife, from above, does 1D6, there's nothing that 'larger than life' about standing over someone and stabbing them in the gut nine or ten times before they are in real fear of death...
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Noon »

Eashamahel wrote:
Noon wrote:
Eashamahel wrote:
Noon wrote:Because it's not about simulating things perfectly. It's about larger than life characters who go rampaging around having adventures.

Or so I assume.



Sounds good. What does get a little less than adventurous is when random Orc needs to be hit with a sword six or seven times (hit, not just swung at) before it goes down. Not very adventurous when every basic bad guy fight is more like chopping down a tree...

Unless you're talking about the idea of if you play a more larger than life character then you do more damage (which the riddle of steel RPG did and is a cool mechanic), then you're still just talking about simulating things perfectly - ie, the simulating how ever many strikes you think it takes to slay an orc. Which doesn't care whether the character is larger than life or not. It's a different subject than the one I raised.

The point was, it seems unlikely that a 'larger than life' character who is 'rampaging' around is going to have to land a half dozen blows, with a deadly weapon (and land them, not just attempt them), to defeat random baddy A.

I mean, my Palladium Fantasy is a little rusty, but a random, 1st level orc baddy has probably what, 30SDC? 40? Considering a knife, from above, does 1D6, there's nothing that 'larger than life' about standing over someone and stabbing them in the gut nine or ten times before they are in real fear of death...

It wouldn't help if you could mechanically just kill them in one or two hits, since you could have a not larger than life character and do that.

What I said was really about larger than life characters being first and foremost. It's the actual personality that's larger than life that I'm talking about, not about character stats.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Prysus »

Eashamahel wrote:I mean, my Palladium Fantasy is a little rusty, but a random, 1st level orc baddy has probably what, 30SDC? 40? Considering a knife, from above, does 1D6, there's nothing that 'larger than life' about standing over someone and stabbing them in the gut nine or ten times before they are in real fear of death...

Greetings and Salutations. Average S.D.C. for an Orc is 10, maybe higher if you assume the "average" orc has physical skill bonuses (but that is an assumption). Only 2 out of the 7 (about 33%) available O.C.C. are dedicated combat types (I'm not counting Thieves and Assassins as major combatants). Each 1st level Orc will average 16 Hit Points. That's 26 points total to KILL the Orc, and an average of 3 knife strikes before you reach H.P. (a single Claymore strike will average bringing a character into H.P. on the first hit). Also keep in mind the average Orc is tougher than some other races (such as humans).

As for why it takes so many hits, I'll admit that if you're running around stabbing lulled guards in the neck while their guard's down, sleeping, or restrained victims, such low damage is ridiculous. However, Palladium has more the cinematic combat. So let's think about a movie fight scene (one on one, not the one on 50 type).

There are two guys, one if them has a knife. Swipe, miss! Swipe, dodge. Swipe, knicks the character's side. The two grapple some and the unarmed one maybe gets in some punches. The knife wielded may slice the character's hand/palm. All these are still relatively superficial wounds. While a knife is lethal, I'd say the concept is that you're not landing death blows every hit, but glancing blows because the opponent is defending. So the character may have a cut on his side, hand, and even cheek, but you're not driving the knife in hilt deep either.

Added note: I remember once hearing (though I am unsure of the accuracy) that the one of the most dangerous parts of a knife fight is that the opponent worries so much about the knife that he leaves himself open to all sorts of other attacks (and those other attacks are what will do you in). Again, don't remember where I heard that nor do I know it's accuracy. Just stating another possible thought process.

Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Yeah, the most dangerous part of a knife is the knife. Any at least semi-realistic knife defence will teach you to go two on one and establish as much control as you can (and that you WILL get cut, likely badly).

I'm all about the cinematic combats and the storytelling, Palladium's looseness is one of the reasons I like it, though i admit I haven't played Fantasy in a long time, so I was using the RIFTS Conversion Book for the Orc stats, and in it Orcs have a significant amount of starting SDC (40 actually now that I look, I had thought it was 20).
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Jefffar »

Those 10 Orc SDC are a bonus on top of what OCC he has, and orcs tend towards the more physical classes so you're probably looking at another 10 to 20 points easily. Then we tack on HP for a total of between 35 to 50 points to bring down your average first level Orc.

That's 2 or 3 full damage hits with a Claymore or 10 or more average hits with a knife.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Thank you for the actual numbers. So 20-30 SDC would not be uncommon.

I don't mind the video game concept of a health bar, attacks lower it, when it gets to zero you die. I have no problem with swords removing some points, and characters being totally fine after receiving full on hits with halberds while unarmoured. If that's the style of the game, then that's how it is, and it's not 'right' or 'wrong'.

It is fun to mix it up sometimes, make lethal weapons lethal, where being hit with an axe is actually a big deal.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Stone Gargoyle »

Eashamahel wrote:It is fun to mix it up sometimes, make lethal weapons lethal, where being hit with an axe is actually a big deal.
I actually do play it that way most of the time, just because I have players that think their characters can come out of a battle with barely even a flesh wound when what they actually took as far as damage would kill most people.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Prysus »

Jefffar wrote:Those 10 Orc SDC are a bonus on top of what OCC he has, and orcs tend towards the more physical classes so you're probably looking at another 10 to 20 points easily. Then we tack on HP for a total of between 35 to 50 points to bring down your average first level Orc.

That's 2 or 3 full damage hits with a Claymore or 10 or more average hits with a knife.

Greetings and Salutations. 10, on top of the O.C.C. bonuses, except I can't think of any PF O.C.C. that give a bonus. I'd, personally be very hesitant to call standard character creation an "O.C.C." especially since it mentions O.C.C. bonuses are cumulative.

As for the physical types, I suppose that depends on what you consider "physical." I don't generally consider thieves for example "physical" (at least not in the S.D.C. sense). They're not better at combat than a Merchant or Peasant. Assassins have the lowest parry in the game because they're nit designed for direct combat and exchanging blows. I also don't consider a "Black Priest," "Witch" (though if you make the right pact they can be), or "Vagabond" as physical.

There are only 7 O.C.C. available to them. 5 of which I'd argue are not "physical" (in the S.D.C. combative type). "Mercenary" and "Thief" being their favorites. But that only makes the combat munchy orc "average" if you play Thieves as major combatants (which I have done, but as an exception and not the rule).

Really your average Orc will only have 2 more points than a human Men of Arms or 9 more than a human in any other field. The real question becomes if they pick up Physical skills and (if so) which one(s).

In my personal experience (when I'm not just trying to make the most powerful character possible) I find human characters tend tend to range between 20 and 30 total (sometimes slightly higher), with the higher end being my combat characters. Of course, I don't tend to consider the "average" individual warriors.

So I would personally figure the average Orc to have around 30 (maybe 35), about half if which is S.D.C. That changes the numbers slightly of what I said, and that's if give the benefit of the doubt that it's "average" (even among farmers) to have 1 or 2 skills that boost S.D.C.

Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and ssafe journeys to all.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Prysus »

Eashamahel wrote:Thank you for the actual numbers. So 20-30 SDC would not be uncommon.

Greetings and Salutations. 10 starting S.D.C. Those gained by O.C.C. (no bonuses to S.D.C. in the O.C.C. unless it's a Witch Pact or something). Then Physical skills. Average H.P. are 16, with minimum being 6 and max being 26. Those are the stats. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Stone Gargoyle wrote:
Eashamahel wrote:It is fun to mix it up sometimes, make lethal weapons lethal, where being hit with an axe is actually a big deal.
I actually do play it that way most of the time, just because I have players that think their characters can come out of a battle with barely even a flesh wound when what they actually took as far as damage would kill most people.




I've actually seen it more often than not that players play as if the damage would be life threatening. An NPC pulls out a knife in a fist fight, someone gets into a sword fight with no armour, ect, and players have their characters act as if it's a big deal, even though it would hardly be an issue. It works as long as everyone plays to the idea.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Prysus wrote:
Eashamahel wrote:Thank you for the actual numbers. So 20-30 SDC would not be uncommon.

Greetings and Salutations. 10 starting S.D.C. Those gained by O.C.C. (no bonuses to S.D.C. in the O.C.C. unless it's a Witch Pact or something). Then Physical skills. Average H.P. are 16, with minimum being 6 and max being 26. Those are the stats. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



How about this. The average Orc fighter has what?

+10 SDC for being an Orc
+X SDC for being a Man at Arms (what is this number in fantasy?)
+Y SDC for any required physical skills

Want to fill in X and Y?
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by arouetta »

Eashamahel wrote:
Prysus wrote:
Eashamahel wrote:Thank you for the actual numbers. So 20-30 SDC would not be uncommon.

Greetings and Salutations. 10 starting S.D.C. Those gained by O.C.C. (no bonuses to S.D.C. in the O.C.C. unless it's a Witch Pact or something). Then Physical skills. Average H.P. are 16, with minimum being 6 and max being 26. Those are the stats. Farewell and safe journeys for now.



How about this. The average Orc fighter has what?

+10 SDC for being an Orc
+X SDC for being a Man at Arms (what is this number in fantasy?)
+Y SDC for any required physical skills

Want to fill in X and Y?


1D6 if not men of arms, 3D6 if men of arms (pg 18).

Thieves and Assassins are listed in the men of arms section.

Picking two physical skills can give you an average of 20 (boxing and body building).

So 10+an average of 10 (OCC)+an average of 20=40

That's assuming you rolled 3s and 4s on a D6. Using a man of arms and those two skills, the range would be 26-56.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Prysus wrote:Really your average Orc will only have 2 more points than a human Men of Arms or 9 more than a human in any other field.


Why would an average Orc have only 2 more points of SDC than a human Man of Arms? Orcs have, by default, 10 more than humans to start. What would give the human, assuming both rolled average and had the same OCC such a leap in catching up?
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by arouetta »

Prysus wrote:As for the physical types, I suppose that depends on what you consider "physical." I don't generally consider thieves for example "physical" (at least not in the S.D.C. sense). They're not better at combat than a Merchant or Peasant. Assassins have the lowest parry in the game because they're nit designed for direct combat and exchanging blows. I also don't consider a "Black Priest," "Witch" (though if you make the right pact they can be), or "Vagabond" as physical.


What's important is what the book says is "physical", if you want to go by canon. Men of Arms start on pg 78 and end on pg 96, with Optional starting on that same page. Contained within the Men of Arms section is Thief and Assassin. Of the seven OCCs available to orcs, four are found in the Men of Arms section. That sounds like a sizeable chunk of the tribe is going to have that extra 2D6 to their SDC.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Prysus »

Greetings and Salutations. Okay, to save on time and avoid making several posts, I'll try to respond to a few at once here.

Eashamahel wrote:How about this. The average Orc fighter has what?

+10 SDC for being an Orc
+X SDC for being a Man at Arms (what is this number in fantasy?)
+Y SDC for any required physical skills

Want to fill in X and Y?

If you included X, then it would average 10. However, I'd say it's definitely suspect to include X in the process.

Humans (page 289): S.D.C.: Standard; see determining S.D.C. and physical skills.
Elves (page 291): S.D.C.: 10 plus those gained from O.C.C.s and/or physical skills.

Almost every other race (all but three) has something similar to what Elves have written. Note: Only exceptions being Gnomes (1/2 to 1/3 the size of Humans), Hob-Goblins, and Changelings (with weak constitutions). I'll readdress this later.

Then take a look at things like Hit Points. It gives you full stats in each race. Let's look at Psionics.

Humans (page 289): Psionics: Standard; see psionics section.
Elves (page 291): Psionics: Standard; see psionics section.
Dwarves (page 293): Psionics: Standard.
Gnomes (page 295): None.

So we have three examples (and there are more) that tell us "standard." The Humans and Elves go so far as to tell you what "Standard" means (see the psionic section). Gnomes have "none."

Do Gnomes still rolls in Step 3 of Character Creation? Well, no. Their race tells us a different stat. For races that do use Step 3, they tell us.

With S.D.C., Humans let us know we should see Step 2. The other races do NOT. Orcs don't say "Standard, +10" or "An additional 10 points." They say: "10 plus those gained from O.C.C. and physical skills." We're given set numbers. Could this be bad writing? Possibly. However, I'm not so sure. I'll continue. This is going to be one of the most confusing lines I add (and it both supports and refutes my theory) ...

Page 18: "Some non-human races and O.C.C.s also get special S.D.C. bonuses. All S.D.C. points/bonuses are cumulative."

Now, on one hand we have some non-humans races get S.D.C. bonuses, and these bonuses are cumulative. Right? That does sound like you just add the 10. However, let's read the other half of that. Some O.C.C. get special S.D.C. bonuses, and all bonuses are cumulative. Note here how it mentions that O.C.C. give bonuses (though except the Witch via a choice in one of the pacts, I can't think of one that does).

Now what does the Orc (and other races) tell you to add in? O.C.C. If we conclude that "O.C.C." means standard character creation, that means standard character creation is telling you to add itself to itself ... and that doesn't make any sense either. To me this sounds far more like the mythical O.C.C. bonuses that the racial write-up refers to. At the very least I think that line conflicts within itself. This is how I've always made sense of it myself.

1: Orcs are human sized and tough, yes? 10 S.D.C. is the average starting S.D.C. for a human warrior. So even an Orc Vagabond is as tough as a trained Human Warrior. Does this make them tough? In comparison, yes (to me).

2: Elves are human allies, and for the most part considered on par. Is there any evidence that they're super tough, and twice as tough as a human? No. So making them twice as tough as a human doesn't make as much sense (to me).

3: Trolls have 40 S.D.C. Does this hold true to make them 2 to 3 times (or more) durable than a human (as suggested in Character Creation)? Yes.

4: Human toughness is only equal to people half or less their size (Gnomes) and/or those who are frail with a weak constitution (Changelings). Does this make sense? No, that doesnt' seem to work (for me), unless you subscribe to the theory that Humans are the weakest race.

I'm not speaking from a real world logic stand point, I'm speaking for logistics of the game world. The wording can go either way, so I go the way that makes sense. I have yet to find any proof it goes the other way (though if you have some I'm open).

Eashamahel wrote:Why would an average Orc have only 2 more points of SDC than a human Man of Arms? Orcs have, by default, 10 more than humans to start. What would give the human, assuming both rolled average and had the same OCC such a leap in catching up?

Hopefully the above has this make more sense now?

-----
arouetta wrote:What's important is what the book says is "physical", if you want to go by canon. Men of Arms start on pg 78 and end on pg 96, with Optional starting on that same page. Contained within the Men of Arms section is Thief and Assassin. Of the seven OCCs available to orcs, four are found in the Men of Arms section. That sounds like a sizeable chunk of the tribe is going to have that extra 2D6 to their SDC.

If standard character creation applies to all races, then this would be important. I'd disagree with that it does (unless someone can provide some solid proof and/or strong evidence). See above for the rest. I'm not trying to be stubborn here, I'm just not sure that's the case and I think, at best, this is vague. The book refers to S.D.C. gained from O.C.C. (this is also mentioned in Step 3 of standard character creation), which unfortunately no O.C.C. actually has. As such, "physical" would be related to stacking up on physical skills for the bonuses. While any character can do this (if they can select the skills), I'd only call it "average" for the more direct combat types. That's my point/stance.



Anyways, that's all for now. When this all started I didn't even realize how unclear my stance had been (since this is the way I've seen it for so long, I took it as just second nature). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day to all. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by arouetta »

Prysus wrote:
Greetings and Salutations. Okay, to save on time and avoid making several posts, I'll try to respond to a few at once here.

Eashamahel wrote:How about this. The average Orc fighter has what?

+10 SDC for being an Orc
+X SDC for being a Man at Arms (what is this number in fantasy?)
+Y SDC for any required physical skills

Want to fill in X and Y?

If you included X, then it would average 10. However, I'd say it's definitely suspect to include X in the process.

Humans (page 289): S.D.C.: Standard; see determining S.D.C. and physical skills.
Elves (page 291): S.D.C.: 10 plus those gained from O.C.C.s and/or physical skills.

Almost every other race (all but three) has something similar to what Elves have written. Note: Only exceptions being Gnomes (1/2 to 1/3 the size of Humans), Hob-Goblins, and Changelings (with weak constitutions). I'll readdress this later.

Then take a look at things like Hit Points. It gives you full stats in each race. Let's look at Psionics.

Humans (page 289): Psionics: Standard; see psionics section.
Elves (page 291): Psionics: Standard; see psionics section.
Dwarves (page 293): Psionics: Standard.
Gnomes (page 295): None.

So we have three examples (and there are more) that tell us "standard." The Humans and Elves go so far as to tell you what "Standard" means (see the psionic section). Gnomes have "none."

Do Gnomes still rolls in Step 3 of Character Creation? Well, no. Their race tells us a different stat. For races that do use Step 3, they tell us.

With S.D.C., Humans let us know we should see Step 2. The other races do NOT. Orcs don't say "Standard, +10" or "An additional 10 points." They say: "10 plus those gained from O.C.C. and physical skills." We're given set numbers. Could this be bad writing? Possibly. However, I'm not so sure. I'll continue. This is going to be one of the most confusing lines I add (and it both supports and refutes my theory) ...

Page 18: "Some non-human races and O.C.C.s also get special S.D.C. bonuses. All S.D.C. points/bonuses are cumulative."

Now, on one hand we have some non-humans races get S.D.C. bonuses, and these bonuses are cumulative. Right? That does sound like you just add the 10. However, let's read the other half of that. Some O.C.C. get special S.D.C. bonuses, and all bonuses are cumulative. Note here how it mentions that O.C.C. give bonuses (though except the Witch via a choice in one of the pacts, I can't think of one that does).

Now what does the Orc (and other races) tell you to add in? O.C.C. If we conclude that "O.C.C." means standard character creation, that means standard character creation is telling you to add itself to itself ... and that doesn't make any sense either. To me this sounds far more like the mythical O.C.C. bonuses that the racial write-up refers to. At the very least I think that line conflicts within itself. This is how I've always made sense of it myself.

1: Orcs are human sized and tough, yes? 10 S.D.C. is the average starting S.D.C. for a human warrior. So even an Orc Vagabond is as tough as a trained Human Warrior. Does this make them tough? In comparison, yes (to me).

2: Elves are human allies, and for the most part considered on par. Is there any evidence that they're super tough, and twice as tough as a human? No. So making them twice as tough as a human doesn't make as much sense (to me).

3: Trolls have 40 S.D.C. Does this hold true to make them 2 to 3 times (or more) durable than a human (as suggested in Character Creation)? Yes.

4: Human toughness is only equal to people half or less their size (Gnomes) and/or those who are frail with a weak constitution (Changelings). Does this make sense? No, that doesnt' seem to work (for me), unless you subscribe to the theory that Humans are the weakest race.

I'm not speaking from a real world logic stand point, I'm speaking for logistics of the game world. The wording can go either way, so I go the way that makes sense. I have yet to find any proof it goes the other way (though if you have some I'm open).

Eashamahel wrote:Why would an average Orc have only 2 more points of SDC than a human Man of Arms? Orcs have, by default, 10 more than humans to start. What would give the human, assuming both rolled average and had the same OCC such a leap in catching up?

Hopefully the above has this make more sense now?

-----
arouetta wrote:What's important is what the book says is "physical", if you want to go by canon. Men of Arms start on pg 78 and end on pg 96, with Optional starting on that same page. Contained within the Men of Arms section is Thief and Assassin. Of the seven OCCs available to orcs, four are found in the Men of Arms section. That sounds like a sizeable chunk of the tribe is going to have that extra 2D6 to their SDC.

If standard character creation applies to all races, then this would be important. I'd disagree with that it does (unless someone can provide some solid proof and/or strong evidence). See above for the rest. I'm not trying to be stubborn here, I'm just not sure that's the case and I think, at best, this is vague. The book refers to S.D.C. gained from O.C.C. (this is also mentioned in Step 3 of standard character creation), which unfortunately no O.C.C. actually has. As such, "physical" would be related to stacking up on physical skills for the bonuses. While any character can do this (if they can select the skills), I'd only call it "average" for the more direct combat types. That's my point/stance.



Anyways, that's all for now. When this all started I didn't even realize how unclear my stance had been (since this is the way I've seen it for so long, I took it as just second nature). Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day to all. Farewell and safe journeys for now.


I'll take up the challenge. The book says two things. First, "There are two types of SDC. The first applies to living creatures". Second, "Determining SDC is simple. Characters with a background as men of arms roll 3D6 for SDC, while practitioners of magic, scholars and all others roll 1D6 for SDC."

Now the first line did not say "applies to humans" and orcs are living creatures. The second line refers to "men of arms" (a collection of OCCs), "practitioners of magic" (a collection of OCCs) and "scholars" (an OCC). It is safe to assume that "all others" are the remainder of the OCCs. So living creatures (orcs) with an OCC get either 1D6 or 3D6 for SDC.

Continuing on, the book says "Some non-human races and OCCs also get special SDC bonuses." The word "also" is key. It means that not only do they get their racial bonus, they get the 1D6 or 3D6 as well. Otherwise the word would be "instead".
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Noon »

Depends what 'lethal' means in regards to PC's - whether that's killing them or just potentially putting them in a coma on one hit.

In a campaign a PC will probably be in dozens of fights - perhaps 50 or more.

By raw dice rolls, if the odds of insta death are even just 5% each combat, you will definately be rolling up a new character before campaign end.

I say this because I'm guessing some people want both lethal by chance and yet a character could get to the end of the campaign alive. You can't have both (unless you dial down the lethality chance or stop relying purely on dice rolls to determine lethality. Or fudge, I guess - but that's the easy way out)
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Prysus »

arouetta wrote:I'll take up the challenge.

Greetings and Salutations. Cool. I'm always up for a friendly debate. :) Now I'm not seeing any concrete evidence, but I do see the points you're trying to make. These are (for the most part) something I've already considered, but didn't address. I'll do so now. I'll rearrange what you wrote slightly, but only for the sake of putting things in order to address them together. I'm not attempting to change any meaning.

arouetta wrote:The book says two things. First, "There are two types of SDC. The first applies to living creatures".

arouetta wrote:Now the first line did not say "applies to humans" and orcs are living creatures.

This is very true. However, I should note I try my best to take everything into context. This is the same description from other settings such as Rifts and Beyond the Supernatural (both of which came out before PF, 2nd Edition). Why is this important? Because in both settings character creation applies only to humans. Even in Rifts, where races can be all sorts, it says this ... and yet doesn't apply. It also says 3D6 for attributes, but we know other races ignore this. Now it doesn't always say this, but this just tends to be the case with Palladium. Since the line (as near as I can tell) is identical (probably a copy/paste) from Rifts and Beyond the Supernatural, the fact it doesn't specificy humans doesn't say as much as I wish it did.

Note: If this wasn't Palladium, or Palladium didn't tend to write character creation with humans in mind, I'd agree this is very good evidence.

arouetta wrote:Second, "Determining SDC is simple. Characters with a background as men of arms roll 3D6 for SDC, while practitioners of magic, scholars and all others roll 1D6 for SDC."

arouetta wrote:The second line refers to "men of arms" (a collection of OCCs), "practitioners of magic" (a collection of OCCs) and "scholars" (an OCC). It is safe to assume that "all others" are the remainder of the OCCs.

I agree with you here.

arouetta wrote:So living creatures (orcs) with an OCC get either 1D6 or 3D6 for SDC.

If 1 and 2 were the only evidence I'd agree. Except, as stated, PB tends to write character creation with Humans as the base. Now I'll admit PF is much better in this regard. They often add some lines discussing other races. That's why this is confusing at best. If this were say Rifts or BtS, this would be pretty clear to apply only to humans. The thing is that PF took some extra caution, and as a result have cast doubt (at least to me). See below.

arouetta wrote:Continuing on, the book says "Some non-human races and OCCs also get special SDC bonuses." The word "also" is key. It means that not only do they get their racial bonus, they get the 1D6 or 3D6 as well. Otherwise the word would be "instead".
Yeah, that is pretty much what it means. However, you didn't address the counter points I provided above. Let's follow your logic and say that's exactly what it means.

Orc S.D.C.: 10 plus O.C.C. and physical skills.

This statement unfortunately has to mean that "O.C.C." applies to the 1D6 or 3D6. However, let's keep that logic and go back to your last statement: "Some non-human races and O.C.C. also get special S.D.C. bonuses." So if you're following Character Creation ... do you add in the 3D6/1D6 again? And following it do you do it again? When does the loop stop? I know, I know, that's silly. But saying "O.C.C." refers to that can be just as silly. That's the problem.

Also, why take the time to mention "Standard" for things like Psionics or S.D.C. (with Humans)? They clearly took the time to apply it to those, yet not to the oher races O.C.C. They list out all the other stats and list "Standard" when standard, or give you new numbers (like "None" for psionics). In this case, instead of "Standard" for S.D.C. (like they did with Humans) they write "10."

All we've done so far is reshow that the book contradicts itself. That's why I'd go so far as to argue which version makes more sense. Do Elves being twice as tough as Humans make sense to you? Does Humans having as weak durability as a non-combatant race half their size and the physically weak constitution race make sense while all other races are tougher make sense? If not, ask why you think that version of the contradiction makes more sense. If you think there's a logic to humans being exceptionally fragile, let me know because I'm curious (maybe I'm missing something).



As this is, at least in part, about context, let's look at Rifts. I hate bringing Rifts into a PF discussion, but I only want to discuss the wording that PB uses. Why? Because this is a discussion on wording.

If anyone thinks that Rifts main book character creation applies to any race other than Humans, then I think we have much bigger problems. Now, we have much of the exact same wording in Rifts as PF, only a few number changes (men of arms have 1D4x10, for example) and then the part at the end about non-humans is removed. Why is this important? For one, it shows a pattern, but it's more than that. Let's look at Rifts Conversion Book One Eashamahel mentioned earlier.

Orcs stats with 40.Why is that important? Because what we see here is that Orcs start with the human warrior S.D.C. (admittedly the max for a Human warrior).

Elves still start with 10. Why is that imporant? Because what we see here is that Elves still start within human warrior S.D.C. (though admittedly on the lower end this time).

Though for some reason in PF the argument is these same races should be TWICE as tough as humans. Is this solid proof? No. But it does show more of a pattern. PB unfortunately doesn't use any set method for their stats, but we can look at them and see how they tend to handle it. All PF really seems to give (from what I can tell) are a few contradictions.

Aslo in RCB1 original, both of those also mention "plus those gained from O.C.C.s and physical skills." Why is that important? In Rifts, let's say one those characters became a Cyber-Knight, which gains a 1D4x10 S.D.C. bonus as part of the O.C.C. So do you gain racial S.D.C., O.C.C. bonus (men of arms), plus another O.C.C. bonus (Cyber-Knight)? And if you take two O.C.C. bonuses, does that mean you've just multi-classed? Or would it seem to make more sense that you get the actual O.C.C. bonus (Cyber-Knight)? I'd, personally, rule the latter, and that PF attempted to emulate this (but didn't include any O.C.C. bonuses).

I'm trying to see the puzzle as a whole. This isn't an attempt to be stubborn. While the pieces shown have one apparent meaning, when you look at the bigger picture they seem to indicate something different. Oy, that took more time than I intended and now I have a bit of a headache. Anyways, thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.
Living the Fantasy (fan website)

Rifter #45; Of Bows & Arrows (Archery; expanding rules and abilities)
Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.
Eashamahel
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

So your argument is that an Orc Mercenary does not get the SDC that all Men at Arms gets?

Anyone else ever see this done?
Eashamahel
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Re: Damage of Dagger and Punches/Kicks

Unread post by Eashamahel »

Noon wrote:Depends what 'lethal' means in regards to PC's - whether that's killing them or just potentially putting them in a coma on one hit.





One thing that should be said, if you go the way of 'Lethal=HP, Non-Lethal=SDC', you pretty much immediately want to get rid of the 'Natural 20'. I have no problem with Natural 20's being auto-crits, works well, but auto hits as well pretty much spells instant death, and it's frustrating auto-dying to something when your character not only has higher bonuses, but even rolls high enough to defend itself.

This would come up more and be more apparent if there were more protracted fist fights in the game, because it makes Boxing freaking $%^&##ed.
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