Breaking down movement in combat?

[Severus Snape]

And that's the problem with the rules regarding movement. A melee round is approximately 15 seconds. 5 actions per melee round means you are performing an action every 3 seconds. With a speed of 20 (the example above) you are moving 60 feet every 3 seconds. That means you are moving 1200 feet per minute, or 72000 feet per hour, or 13.6 miles per hour. You are hauling butt in this scenario, and you are a normal human being.

The fastest a normal human being in real life has ever traveled on foot is 23.4 mph, and this was Usain Bolt. This was from a resting position, which means he had to build up speed. He went from 0-23.4 in the span of 100 meters, yet the rules for HU don't take building up momentum into account UNLESS we are talking about someone with a super speed power. To put this into words that everyone can understand, you have to have a Speed attribute of ~35 to pull this off. That is a huge jump from a Speed of 20, but only an increase of ~10 mph. And while it's doable to get a speed this high without super powers, it isn't probable.

[Cinos]

but how much paperwork are you looking to do for more plausible speed rules?

Do them once, and have them ready is all that needs be done. It isn't that hard to rip out the existing rules, and do math until you find a simple version of Speed to Movement per Action within reason-ability. This should be in RUE, and should be in the core book of every supplement (note, should be, not is, don't spend time looking ).

In the end I ended up with a speed to feet conversion, and you could do 25% per action of that amount, and adjust up to 25% per action you spent moving. Having running let you start at higher amounts, and one could drain their stamina to start at higher amounts (the maintaining it also cost stamina, a resource that, to me, should be added to every game ever in some way or another).

[Grell]

My quick ruling has always been that you can move half of your max distance per action and still get an attack. Of course, I'm not so strong with the math...

[sHaka]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the idiosyncrasy that comes about from having 2 characters with 20 speed (400 yards per minute, 100 yds/melee) but one character (a 1st level mage with basic hth) has 4 attacks, and the other is a 1st level fighter with expert hth and boxing, thus 5 attacks.

the mage can travel 25 yards per action, up to 100 yds in his melee.

the fighter can travel 20 yards per action, up to 100 yds in his melee.

assuming no other limiting factors (armor etc.), the mage beats the fighter to the 100 yard line every time in a round-by-round footrace...

Agreed tzthumper, and the problem becomes even more apparent when you really analyse a melee round.

A melee round = 15 seconds. If we use your above example of two protagonists (A and B) of SPD 20, with A having 4 attacks and B having 5, a round would be ordered as so: (A wins initiative) A,B,A,B,A,B,A,B,B

A's 4 attacks take 3.75 seconds each, B's 5 take 3 seconds each. So clearly that all adds up to 30 seconds for both to act, not 15 (assuming no simo-attacks). This causes a big problem when trying to calculate movement, and the more combatants you add, the longer the "15 second melee" actually takes.

I think the only way to make all this actually work - to allow for differing numbers of attacks, and for the speed attribute to actually work and not create the anomaly that tzthumper illustrates above - is to have a standard definition of the length of time for an action/attack, not the melee round. This makes perfect sense if you think about it as the action is the smallest time unit in the game and cannot be broken up, unlike the melee round which can be comprised of a variable amount of actions. The melee round then becomes an elastic unit of time that only ends when all participants have used their actions up.

If we say that all actions take 3 seconds, then the speed attribute once again has meaning; we will know how far a character can travel in a universally constant period of time. It would cause a number of new problems however, such as powers that are listed as having a duration of a number of melees per lvl for example......

For me story > rules, but I think something as fundamental as the melee round could use reworking.

[Library Ogre]

I know this has been talked about before, but i can't find the topic. Palladium is my favorite rpg but i've always liked playing on grids and a more in depth combat movement system. I find breaking it down mathmatically doesn't convert well. Does anyone have any house rules that work some what realistically?

My rule of thumb is that you can move your speed in feet as part of an action (walk up to someone and hit them with a sword; dive out of the way on a dodge), and your speed in yards as an action. It more or less lines up with the rules given (at 5 actions per round, it's identical to "run Speed times 20 yards in one minute"), and is quick to adjudicate. It gets a little squirrelly once people have more than 5 actions per round, but that's rare enough that I don't mind the mismatch between rules that are already patchy.

[Lukterran]

Stop it already! Stop dividing attacks and speed. It is the wrong formula. Speed is independent of attacks/action per melee. That is why you keep coming up with the bad examples. You are wanting a simple formula to make speed=agility and combat prowess and it doesn't.

Player "1" can use only one or all of his actions to get from point "A" to point "B". This isn't an attack.

Player "1" has multiple actions that be can perform while doing this task. He can be drawing a weapon, dodge/roll, block with a shield etc... all while at the same time running (walking) between the two points. These are the attacks/actions. Or Player 1 also has the option to focus on only running and not use any attacks.

Attack/Actions per melee do not = time. There is not a given timeframe for an action. Its variable.

GMs - Just use your common sense. If a player that has a high speed attribute and a lot of attacks per melee he is going to be able to cover more ground and perform more feats daring in combat than someone not as fast or with as many attacks.

If you think that a player has lost the oppurtunity to take his action because he is running then just take away a reasonable amount of attacks for the time it would take him to cover that distance.

You could also add penalties for actions taken while running either in negatives to roll or using more actions to complete the action.

[Library Ogre]

Speed doesn't equal agility... but it does equal movement rate, and when you're talking tactical movement (i.e. during combat), you need to have a way to figure out how much someone moves in a given 15 seconds, often while doing other things, and other things are being done to them.

While dividing that movement up among someone's attacks per melee may not be a perfect model, it represents an example of GMs "just using their common sense"... coming up with a ruling that is possible to apply consistently across characters. Given that Palladium doesn't model tactical movement at all (especially since its default speed-per-minute was set when melee=minute), GMs have to work with what's given.

Your statement "If you think a player has lost the oppurtunity [sic] to take his action because he is running then just take away a reasonable amount of attacks for the time it would take him to cover that distance" is exactly the same as saying "You can cover X amount of distance per attack, or Y if you're just moving." It's just that the second applies a formula to it; a rationale that can be quickly explained and applied in the future.

"He's 50 feet away. I have a speed of 20. Can I get to him?"
"It'll take you two attacks if you keep fighting, or one if you just move."

WHY is that divided up by attacks? Because other people will have a chance to act during that movement. If you take two actions, they'll get to act twice. If you take one action, they'll get to act once. While each attack may not represent a discrete unit of time, they do represent opportunity.

TL;DR: Explaining tactical movement in terms of attacks per melee makes sense. Attacks aren't "time", but they are opportunities to act, and it creates a framework to work from.

[The Dark Elf]

Like Luk above, I place loose which is why Palladium is such a good system for me. So I've no advice for the OP, sorry. Just wanted to show Luk that I'm similar.

[Lukterran]

My point is that as a GM you can use reason to give a quick "best guestimates" for determining how many actions are used up by players moving around the battle field that keeps the game (especially combat) moving along and not bogg things down trying stop the action to figure out complex math.

I dislike rules and mechanics that take away from the story telling of the game. Remember Palladium is a Role-Playing game not a Roll-Playing game. Now, if you have a simple solution that is quick and fair across the board that can estimate distance covered per attack and doesn't take more than a 10 seconds to figure out I would love to hear it.

[URLeader Hobbes]

I know this has been talked about before, but i can't find the topic. Palladium is my favorite rpg but i've always liked playing on grids and a more in depth combat movement system. I find breaking it down mathmatically doesn't convert well. Does anyone have any house rules that work some what realistically?

A simple method of doing it is multiplying the SPD attribute by either 3-5. (Depending on how encumbered the character is) and that is how many feet per action they can move.

But below is the actual way movement works. Hope this helps.

20x the speed attribute is the distance in yards a character can cover in one minute.

Now a full melee (All the actions for all characters) lasts 15 seconds.
Most GMs break down maps in feet and not yards. So lets just assume we have an average character with a SPD of 10

Lets also assume they aren't encumbered, it's a flat open field with nothing barring their way.

That's 200 yards the character can cover in one minute. (2 American Football fields.) Or 600 feet per minute.
Now if we want to know how far they can get using all of their actions for a melle we divide that by 4 (4 Initiative rolls in a minute.)

So if a character with a speed of 10 runs flat out they can get 150 ft. in 15 seconds. (From the end zone to a 50 yard line in the NFL)

To determine the distance per action we have to divide this by the number of actions the character has. So lets say you are playing a wizard with 3 actions. He can cover 50 feet per action. A warrior with 5 actions will be able to cover 30ft per action.

So the ultimate formula for determining the distance per action is as follows

SPD x20 = Yards Per Min
YPM x3 = Feet Per Min (3 ft per yard)
FPM/4 = Distance Per Melee (4 Melees lasting 15 seconds each in a minute)
DPM/Number of Character Actions = Feet per action.

Hope this helps!

[Library Ogre]

My point is that as a GM you can use reason to give a quick "best guestimates" for determining how many actions are used up by players moving around the battle field that keeps the game (especially combat) moving along and not bogg things down trying stop the action to figure out complex math.

I dislike rules and mechanics that take away from the story telling of the game. Remember Palladium is a Role-Playing game not a Roll-Playing game. Now, if you have a simple solution that is quick and fair across the board that can estimate distance covered per attack and doesn't take more than a 10 seconds to figure out I would love to hear it.

Spd = number of feet you can move during another action (move and make an attack; dodge out of the way; strafing fire with an automatic weapon).
Spd*3 = number of feet you can move as an action.

It's simple, works with the stats already given, and approximately equals the RAW rules on movement, doing so perfectly when someone has 5 attacks, and less perfectly if they have more or less... but not so much as to break the world. And it requires 2nd grade math to do.