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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:53 pm
  

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Hero

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While the present of the Palladium World is diverse and filled with all sorts of adventure... it also has a past that spans over 100,000 years of time... making it at least theoretically possible to have games set in various ages.

We could explore the height of the Elven and Dwarven Empires before the Elf-Dwarf war laid ruin to the New Kingdom and left the Balgor Rainforest a blasted wasteland. We could take part in the purges of magic during the Millennium of Purification... and even attempt to save some of the knowledge from The Prime Incunabula. We could marvel at the variety of magic that abounded during the Time of 1000 Magics... or watch the rise of the first Human nation and the birth of Dragonwright... and see the destruction wrought by the Battle of the Gods.

With so much history in the Palladium World, it is a wonder that they never thought to open up these additional eras for players to adventure in. While the events themselves may not be changeable (the Elf-Dwarf war will happen and bring those two empires to ruin), that doesn't mean that there won't be some grand adventures to be had in these eras. How different the world was during these eras... before the Yin-Sloth jungle was corrupted... before Balgor was a wasteland... before the New Kingdom became the Old Kingdom... before there were Elven or Dwarven Empires to be shattered.

Just as Chaos Earth deals with Earth during the Great Cataclysm that transformed it into Rifts Earth, so too could Palladium Fantasy have Era books that show what the world was like during these times... and open up the possibilities for new Adventures... Legends that will be born and even forgotten in the chaos that would come in future ages.

Knowing the present of the Palladium World is great... but knowing more of its past could even open up new possibilities in the present.

Who else would find such an idea intriguing?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:00 am
  

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Canadian eh?
Can't say I don't fine appeal in the idea.

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Subjugator wrote:
I got my first job at age 12 (maybe 11, but I think 12) and worked more or less continuously until today. I had to so I could eat properly. Doing so as a kid detracted from my educational experience, which was bad enough to begin with . . .

Gingrich is wrong.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:29 pm
  

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Comment: My comments do not necessarily represent the views of Palladium Books.
That would require them to pay attention to Palladium Fantasy.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:15 pm
  

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Mark Hall wrote:
That would require them to pay attention to Palladium Fantasy.

needs context.

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Subjugator wrote:
I got my first job at age 12 (maybe 11, but I think 12) and worked more or less continuously until today. I had to so I could eat properly. Doing so as a kid detracted from my educational experience, which was bad enough to begin with . . .

Gingrich is wrong.

/Sub


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:07 pm
  

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Greetings and Salutations. Era books would be interesting, but I'd consider them a lower priority to fleshing out the rest of the current setting. With that said ...

I have personally run a campaign set during the Elf-Dwarf War (I think it was set at the end of the third or fourth peace, leading into the next segment of the war). This started because I had a player who wanted to play a Dwarven Metal Warlock*. I told him Dwarves have forsaken magic, and as such I wouldn't allow a Dwarven warlock in the current setting. I paused, then added that if he wanted to pursue the idea, we could have a campaign set during the Elf-Dwarf War. He liked the idea. So I created the Metal Warlock O.C.C. and Metal Elemental Spells. We then recruited a second player who wanted to play a Quorian Riftlord. As a result, I made that too (which later saw print in Rifter #55). The Riftlord player never made it to the game though, and I think something happened (probably real life) that we eventually stopped running the campaign, because we didn't get very far. I remember the events that broke the peace took place, and the war was getting started when it ended.

*The Dwarven Metal Warlock was first mentioned in the Dwarven Culture I had written up (along with various other races). I had mentioned the element of metal mostly as a footnote for some flavor text. But, he became really wanted to play one so ... well, yeah.

I also started writing a fan-fic set during the early days of the Millennium of Purification (one year after the end of the Elf-Dwarf War, to be precise) called The Purifiers. However, I never got very far in it. This is mostly because I just lost all motivation to write. I occasionally get bits written here or there, but I haven't done any serious writing for probably over a year now. I still think about the Purifier story, and intend to return to it when I return to writing again.

In some ways, I suppose I prefer the previous eras not have too much detail. That gives me far greater freedom to do whatever I want without contradicting the books. Just thought I'd give a few examples of what I did using the previous eras though. Hope you enjoyed. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:07 pm
  

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So much wasted potential in the PF line, other eras is just one. I'm guessing Palladium will be out of business before the current world is ever finished.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:45 am
  

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Whiskeyjack wrote:
So much wasted potential in the PF line, other eras is just one. I'm guessing Palladium will be out of business before the current world is ever finished.


Exactly how many more books are need to flesh things out?

Also the amount of time that been said and Palladium is still here.

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Subjugator wrote:
I got my first job at age 12 (maybe 11, but I think 12) and worked more or less continuously until today. I had to so I could eat properly. Doing so as a kid detracted from my educational experience, which was bad enough to begin with . . .

Gingrich is wrong.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:51 pm
  

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Champion

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Saitou Hajime wrote:
Exactly how many more books are need to flesh things out?

Greetings and Salutations. Well, that will vary from person to person, but I think most people want to see the major areas of the known world (for simplicity, those in mentioned in the main book) have more detailed in a world book. So ...

Lopan & Phi: While most people I think would be content with one book for those duo, Palladium has already announced an independent Lopan book. That means that Phi will also need its own book. That's 2. Note: Kevin has also announced Garden of the Gods (1 book) that will come out before the Lopan book (and, rumored to tie into the Lopan book), as well as Lopanic Games. That's 2 more books, up to 4 now.

Land of the South Winds: While this could be only one book, Kevin has discussed more than once that he intends this as a series of books. With no indication of how many are in that series, we'd have at least 1+ books. We're now up to 5+ books total.

Old Kingdom: This is generally considered two books (Lowlands and Mountains), as that's how it was announced oh so long ago. This could be turned into one, or more, but for now I'll use the original Palladium figure of two books. That makes 7+ books total.

Land of the Damned 3: I'd normally not worry much about Land of the Damned myself, but they started the series, discussed a third, and it continues to haunt the PF line. Unlike some Rifts books (such as Australia, where the follow up books are stated to be canceled and/or unneeded), this hasn't happened with Land of the Damned 3 yet. In fact, I've heard Kevin say this is something he'll need to write himself. As such, this doesn't indicate it's canceled, but on hiatus. Up to 8+ books.

Additional books could include finished the Mysteries of Magic series (which is another 1+ books). Also, while a PF title, this could be considered more Megaversal for magic users instead of fleshing out the setting, so I'm not going to count it as part of fleshing out the world at this time.

Kevin has also discussed a Wolfen Wars book, but I don't believe that one is necessary to flesh out the remainder of the world. Kevin has also discussed ideas for books discussing the other side of the world (beyond the wall, so to speak). Once again, though interesting and related to the current world/setting, I don't believe this is necessary for us to consider the current setting fleshed out. This is also considering no other books show up between now and then, adding new possible areas to explore in the established areas.

So, just going by what Palladium themselves have discussed, that's another 8+ books (probably more). If Palladium releases one PF book a year, we're looking at probably another 10 years or so before the current setting is finished. Keep in mind, one PF book a year is a generous pace for them. Kevin often talks about gearing up to release one book after another, and if this ever happens that could change things. However, their current pace indicates far longer than just 10 years. Going from memory (I apologize if I make any mistakes), they've released 3 books in the last 14 years (one was Wolfen Empire in 2004, which was mostly updating two 1st Edition books, another Mysteries of Magic in 2008, and the last Bizantium and the Northern Islands in 2015, but again ... dates are from memory). Farewell and safe journeys for now.

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Rifter #45; Of Bows & Arrows (Archery; expanding rules and abilities)
Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:27 pm
  

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Hero

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and another wolfen empire book could be released detailing the wolfen cities like they do for cities in the other books, that would be great.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:54 pm
  

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Saitou Hajime wrote:
Whiskeyjack wrote:
So much wasted potential in the PF line, other eras is just one. I'm guessing Palladium will be out of business before the current world is ever finished.


Exactly how many more books are need to flesh things out?

Also the amount of time that been said and Palladium is still here.


Roleplaying as an industry is in decline. It's only a matter of time before the smaller publishers call it quits. While Palladium has had a great run, and produced amazing products, I honestly don't think they'll last to see the PF line completed. I'd love to see it complete, I just personally don't think it ever will be.
To add to Prysus, an actual proper Wolfen Empire book is also needed to complete the world, as the current offering is woefully inadequate.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:36 am
  

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I would like to just offer a contrary view here...
...I don't think that 'finishing the world' is either possible, nor desirable.
I am not looking to play a game in someone else's minutely detailed world where every speck of land is penciled in... If I wanted to game in a world like that I would go dig out my old D&D stuff which had defined the Forgotten Realms to with in an inch of its life.
I want a broad strokes world where there is still open places for me to run games with out having to write a 188 page source book sized hand out of "What is different in my game"

To me the end of Palladium Fantasy will be when and if they ever publish enough source books that the entire known world is completely fleshed out.
At that point its no longer a game world and just a really big module supplement.
To be brutally honest? I have stolen borrowed heavily from other game lines to fill in my Palladium Fantasy world, and I like it that way.
I love the fact that there are huge areas on the map where my new players gulp and look nervously at each other and say "But there's no book on that, how do we prepare".

So yeah, I am totally fine with a book on the South Winds never coming out. Or if they just do Lopan and not Phi (or vice versa) or if the LotD 3 stays in limbo for another decade or two. To me that is not a bug, its a feature.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:56 am
  

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I would love to see era books for PF, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

I don't see Kevin going for this, but what about a series of Rifter articles for different eras? One article about a dwarven city(Tolkeen style?), another an elvish kingdom. Maybe an article on using styles of magic and classes from different games to stand in for different factions. Some quick examples: 1) a Dwarven Artifactor class built from the rules of a Rifts Techno Wizard, 2) Elven Sky Knight based on a Lyn-Srail Sky Knight magic wise, but riding oversized griffins, 3) Danzi still having their magic powers, similar to faires, or Rifts New West Shamans.

Anyway, just a different angle.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:49 am
  

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One interesting note is that it was mentioned in Mysteries of Magic that one of the magics that were purged during the Millennium of Purification was Tattoo Magic. Now... assuming that this is the same magic presented in Rifts Atlantis and different from the Danzi Spirit Tattoos (though possibly related)... how could it exist on Palladium?

We know that Magic Tattoos... at least the kind that were developed on Atlantis, were only useable by a few species. Humans were by far the widest users... specifically the Ancient Atlanteans... with the Chiang-Ku Dragons (the creators of the magic) being far fewer in number. Beyond this, only Elves and Ogres were capable of using this magic... with the magic having a detrimental effect on Elves... while Ogres with such tattoos were often slaves of powerful masters (currently the Splugorth use them in this manner and are the only widely known possessors of this magic in the multiverse).

Knowing that humanity was little more than barbaric tribes for much of Palladium's history... how do we reconcile the fact that humanity really had no way of developing this magic on Palladium... and it is unlikely the Elves would have pursued it given the debilitating effects it has on their bodies?

One possibility is that it was developed when the Dragons found the first human tribes in the Yin-Sloth Jungles. While the four most powerful Dragons that would become the Gods of Dragonwright were the "leaders" the dragons (as much as any dragon can claim such), it is possible that there were Chiang-Ku amongst their numbers... and like those who taught the Atlanteans tattoo magic... it is possible that these Chiang-Ku would do the same with these early human tribes. It could conceivably one of the first real magics that the early humans of Palladium learned outside of Psi-Mystics.

After the Battle of the Gods scattered the surviving humans, the magic would have been scattered with the survivors... at least those who could remember it (mostly dragons, even though only the Chiang-Ku could make use of the magic themselves). Some of these dragons may have passed the knowledge to others... possibly in an attempt to find another species capable of using it as effectively as the humans had. This is probably how it was discovered to work on Elves and Ogres too... though the Elves would clearly see it as a dangerous magic (hence why it would eventually be purged). Still... some dragons likely used it in the same manner as the Splugorth currently do... to create powerful champions or warrior slaves to serve them. It is even possible that the Elves... while unwilling to use it on themselves, may have used it on Ogre and even Human slaves... especially during the Elf-Dwarf war, possibly to counter the summoned demons the dwarves pressed into serving them.

In the aftermath of the war... many Elves likely felt shame for using such magic to enslave others... especially the humans that were beginning to rise from the barbarism they had endured since their original homeland was devastated. Then there were the Ogre slaves that likely freed themselves with their new found power... likely leading raiders to attack the elves that enslaved them and the dwarves that killed them... causing even more regret amongst the surviving elves who saw their own lack of foresight come back to haunt them with these former slaves. Thus, apart from the few dragons that retained knowledge of this magic... it may have become one of the first to be purged in the Millennium of Purification... as the elves saw it only as a magic that enslaves others (and debilitates elves).

Of course this doesn't explain the Danzi Spirit Tattoos which appear to be a similar magic... though powered by one's own life-force (HP) and other than the excruciating pain and process of gaining them, don't appear to have the same drawbacks as Tattoo Magic (can be used by any species that can receive tattoos by the look of things... though supernatural beings likely can't receive them as they tend to heal too quickly).

Not sure on some of the other magics that were also purged during the Millennium of Purification. Stone Magic seems like it would be very useful... much like Earth Warlockery is... and doesn't seem as dark as other magics... like Temporal Magic (used by many unscrupulous individuals... especially Temporal Raiders). Still... it would be interesting to explore the history of these magics on Palladium.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:18 am
  

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The ruins on most of the Southern islands are all from an Atlantean clan that lived on Palladium after the fall of Atlantis. They would have brought tattoo magic with them, and were likely accompanied by Chiang-ku allies.
As for the Danzi, since they are such an old race, I would surmise that they are the originators of tattoo magic, and use a primitive form of it. The Chiang-Ku would go on to perfect the magic.
I could definitely see the Elves using human and ogre slaves as tattoo warriors against the dwarves, eventually loosing control of them.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:36 pm
  

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Hero

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Whiskeyjack wrote:
The ruins on most of the Southern islands are all from an Atlantean clan that lived on Palladium after the fall of Atlantis. They would have brought tattoo magic with them, and were likely accompanied by Chiang-ku allies.
As for the Danzi, since they are such an old race, I would surmise that they are the originators of tattoo magic, and use a primitive form of it. The Chiang-Ku would go on to perfect the magic.
I could definitely see the Elves using human and ogre slaves as tattoo warriors against the dwarves, eventually loosing control of them.


Where is this information on Atlanteans having a colony on Palladium? Is it 1st Edition ( from Island at the End of the World) because I see no mention of such in Adventures on the High Seas (though there is much information to go through to sift that out).

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:37 pm
  

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I believe the info comes from both Island at the edge of the world and one of the rifts books.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:37 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Razorwing wrote:
Whiskeyjack wrote:
The ruins on most of the Southern islands are all from an Atlantean clan that lived on Palladium after the fall of Atlantis. They would have brought tattoo magic with them, and were likely accompanied by Chiang-ku allies.
As for the Danzi, since they are such an old race, I would surmise that they are the originators of tattoo magic, and use a primitive form of it. The Chiang-Ku would go on to perfect the magic.
I could definitely see the Elves using human and ogre slaves as tattoo warriors against the dwarves, eventually loosing control of them.


Where is this information on Atlanteans having a colony on Palladium? Is it 1st Edition ( from Island at the End of the World) because I see no mention of such in Adventures on the High Seas (though there is much information to go through to sift that out).

The book Island at the End of the World has a couple of Stone Pyramids on some of the islands.
The pyramids are mentioned to be from a lost Atlantean colony that died out long ago.
Then there is the entire Atlantean City that was time shifted into Hades.
And the fact that the Hades demons maintain some limited trade with the rest of the megaverse, including explicitly the Spulgorth

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:11 pm
  

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Champion

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Razorwing wrote:
Whiskeyjack wrote:
The ruins on most of the Southern islands are all from an Atlantean clan that lived on Palladium after the fall of Atlantis. They would have brought tattoo magic with them, and were likely accompanied by Chiang-ku allies.
As for the Danzi, since they are such an old race, I would surmise that they are the originators of tattoo magic, and use a primitive form of it. The Chiang-Ku would go on to perfect the magic.
I could definitely see the Elves using human and ogre slaves as tattoo warriors against the dwarves, eventually loosing control of them.


Where is this information on Atlanteans having a colony on Palladium? Is it 1st Edition ( from Island at the End of the World) because I see no mention of such in Adventures on the High Seas (though there is much information to go through to sift that out).

Greetings and Salutations. As others have said, this is located in Island at the Edge of the World. More specifically ...

Enry Island: While this starts on page 124, the "Ancient Ruins" section is found on page 125.

Uncharted Islands, The Island of Ruins: This starts on page 128, and the "Story Editor's Note" on page 129 tells us about the Atlanteans (this is not explicitly stated in the Enry Island section), and their fate.

As for Tattoo Magic on the Palladium World (not counting the Danzi), I will add this: I'm not sure about the Mysteries of Magic reference (I'd need a page number as I"m not hunting the whole book for it), in Dragons & Gods on page 23 (Chiang-Ku write-up, their "Magic Knowledge" section in particular) we're told that their secrets (Tattoo Magic and the Elixir of Power and Deceit) was lost during the Time of a Thousand Magicks and that the only thing the Millennium of Purification did was destroy hints of its existence. So, by D&G, Tattoo Magic would've been lost long before the Elf-Dwarf War (and the Millennium of Purification just made it so no one even knows it ever existed at all).

In PF2 main book on page 279, there's legends that "at least one dozen different races and civilizations rose and perished between the Age of Light and the end of the Age of a Thousand Magicks." Now one of the questions should be whether or not there's any overlap in the ages? I ask this because history is shaky and most of the years just guessed. In fact, there's even some contradictions in the Palladium Timeline that starts on page 277 (as much of this is rumors and legend). The reason I bring this up is that during the Battle of the Gods (which involved dragons, and that's a fact of the battle) was based around humans. Most of those who fought in the war felt shame at the destruction they caused. If the Chiang-Ku had shared this with the Humans, it could (in theory) be lost during the Time of a Thousand Magicks (if the Battle of the Gods would've taken place within that age). Then, after what happened, the Chiang-Ku felt shame and remorse at everything that happened, so they didn't share their magic again, with the Elves and Dwarves destroying what lingering traces remained of it (but by D&G, wouldn't have actually been able to use it during their war). Note: Even if humans weren't the ones who knew the magic, Tattoo Magic still could've benefited one of the other dozen (or more) races that rose and fell within that time.

As for the Danzi, it's possible (as someone suggested) that they created it and then the Chiang-Ku just perfected it. However, dragons were also one of the ancient races. I think it's equally likely (perhaps more so) that the Chiang-Ku used their magic, and the Danzi saw it and then tried to figure it out. I'll refer again to Dragons & Gods, page 23 (same section as last time): "Even using the magic tattoos may entire somebody to attempt to figure out/develop the magic ..." Alternately, the Chiang-Ku could've even taught the Danzi the magic during the Chaos War. However, like languages in real life, they slowly changed things over time, eventually developing into what we know as the Danzi Tattoo Magic.

Hope that helps. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

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Rifter #45; Of Bows & Arrows (Archery; expanding rules and abilities)
Rifter #52; From Ruins to Runes (Living Rune Weapons; playable characters and NPC)
Rifter #55; Home Away From Home (Quorian Culture; expanded from PF Book 9: Baalgor Wastelands)

Official PDF versions of Rifter #45, #52, and #55 can be found at DriveThruRPG.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:44 pm
  

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The only 1st edition book I have is Yin-Sloth.

It does mention in Adventures of the High Seas that there are ruins of pyramid-like structures over the Floreny Islands (not sure I spelled that right), but it is suggested that these were created by the ancestors of the Grimbor... and even states out setting that it is. Might this be a retcon from a 1st edition? Then again... with Palladium's tendency to Copy/Paste information... they may not do many retcons.

The Tattoo Magic reverence in Mysteries is on pg 16, column 1, 3rd paragraph (not including the one continued from the previous page).

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:03 pm
  

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As for starting with an Past Era article for the Age of Elves... I can only think of one Elven city that it could possibly start with... the Golden City of Baalgor. As far as I can figure out, this is was their first city... and the heart of their empire.

I do not know if Korin Gilead was the capitol of the Dwarven Empire (not sure where it is officially mentioned), but from the Elf-Dwarf War maps in LoB it does have the same prominence as Baalgor... so it will do as the seat of the Dwarven Empire. From these two Cities... we could expand outward and develop the Age of Elves and the eventual hostility that would lead to the Elf-Dwarf War.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:56 pm
  

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Razorwing wrote:
The only 1st edition book I have is Yin-Sloth.

It does mention in Adventures of the High Seas that there are ruins of pyramid-like structures over the Floreny Islands (not sure I spelled that right), but it is suggested that these were created by the ancestors of the Grimbor... and even states out setting that it is. Might this be a retcon from a 1st edition? Then again... with Palladium's tendency to Copy/Paste information... they may not do many retcons.

Greetings and Salutations. These are different pyramids. There are other pyramids on the Palladium World (such as one in Timiro), but that doesn't necessarily make them all Atlantean. With that said, I think I remember a theory (once upon a time) in a thread that the Atlanteans effectively mutated into the Grimbor in some way, but I could just be remembering incorrectly and totally making that up.

Razorwing wrote:
The Tattoo Magic reverence in Mysteries is on pg 16, column 1, 3rd paragraph (not including the one continued from the previous page).

Ugh ... just read that reference and ... ugh ... everyone who had Tattoo Magic appears to have gone to the Palladium World at the exact same moment, so that they could escape from the Palladium World to prevent Tattoo Magic from being purged from the Megaverse ...

Note: I was wrong in my earlier theory about Chiang-Ku having it during the Age of Chaos. According to Rifts Atlantis, the Chiang-Ku developed it while on Atlantis and shared it with the Atlanteans. And per Dragons & Gods, the Chiang-Ku were aware of Tattoo Magic on the Palladium World during the Time of a Thousand Magicks. I don't believe they ever really say when the events on Atlantis took place, but it does predate any other Earth civilization. The timeline will have some issues if we look too hard at it.

Anyways, appreciate pointing me to the reference, regardless of my personal feelings on the matter (always better to know). Farewell and safe journeys for now.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:22 am
  

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Hero

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Well, it is known that Time Travel is possible with Rifts/Dimensional Travel. Victor Lazlo is known to have jumped a few centuries from when he left Earth of Beyond the Supernatural and ended up on Rifts Earth. Erin Tarn has also experienced such from her detour to Wormwood... was gone only two years from her perspective but was missing for five (if I remember correctly). Serron in the Three Galaxies (from DB4: Skraypers) is believed to have been populated by a lost Atlantean tribes, though archeological evidence points to humans on the planet arising some 30,000 years ago... with some Talus artifacts dating back 200,000 years... suggesting a massive temporal shift.

Many of the known pyramids that are suspected of being made by the ancestors of the Grimbor are located on Nexus points... at least according to the write ups in Adventures on the High Seas... so it does suggest that Stone Magic may have been used.

I am not suggesting that Atlanteans were never on Palladium... or that they didn't bring Tattoo Magic to this world... it is possible that they could as they were dimensional explorers and could have appeared at any point in Palladium's history and come from any point in Atlantis' history. Tattoo magic could have been developed parallel in both places with no actual connection... or it could have been brought to Palladium. The Danzi Spirit Tattoos could be a early form of the magic or an offshoot or completely unrelated. Just another mystery of magic.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:01 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
For what it is worth Lemuria places the Atlantian Cataclysm 15,000 years in the past (-15,000), making it happen ~13,000 BCE
Which puts it after the New Kingdom is founded (-18,000) and before humans have a known presence in the Palladium workd (-14,000)
But 75,000 years after the Battle of the Gods (-90,000)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:48 pm
  

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Champion

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eliakon wrote:
For what it is worth Lemuria places the Atlantian Cataclysm 15,000 years in the past (-15,000), making it happen ~13,000 BCE
Which puts it after the New Kingdom is founded (-18,000) and before humans have a known presence in the Palladium workd (-14,000)
But 75,000 years after the Battle of the Gods (-90,000)

Greetings and Salutations. That's actually useful (at least to me). So we have the cataclysm taking place during the Age of Elves (maybe*). However, we also know that Atlanteans were around for a while before that (though we don't know how long). Lemurian Biomancers are stated to have spent "several centuries" researching to make chimeras (and such). With the use of "several" I tend to use the numbers from Presence Sense (several is defined as 7 to 14 in that power), though there's not guarantee they used the term consistently. They'd to develop Biomancy before their Biomancers could research the finer details like that, and they probably had some time after actually making their creations. However, we're not given specifics of that, and we can only guess. I think it's safe to say they were around for at least 1,000 years before the cataclysm (based on the information from Lemuria, and using the average of "several" as detailed above), maybe more.

* I state "maybe" because the Timeline in the PF2 main book on page 281 tells us that any dates before the end of the Elf-Dwarf War are estimated and may be off by 1,000 to 20,000 years.

Now Dragons & Gods tells us that Tattoo Magic existed on the Palladium World during the Time of a Thousand Magicks. The book tells us this happened 70,000 years ago (maybe*). Even with a generous use of the timeline estimates, the Time of a Thousand Magicks would've ended 30,000 years ago (70,000 years being off by 20,000 years, placing it 50,000 years ago, and then it lasting only a thousand years being off by 20,000 years and having it end 30,000 years ago). Unless Atlantis was around for 15,000+ years before the cataclysm, this would have Tattoo Magic predate Atlantis.

Now, Rifts Atlantis tells us the Chiang-Ku "invented" Tattoo Magic while on Atlantis. There's a discrepancy/contradiction (likely, but not a very fun option), is could mean the timelines are off by more than the book states (workable, but not very imaginative), time travel (with rifts, that's possible, though I find it unlikely so many Chiang-Ku went through the same time rift to develop it on the Palladium World, unless it was Atlanteans but that would seem problematic for them as humans were still "war-like barbarians" at the time and other races probably wouldn't listen to them much or would've started viewing humans with higher respect, either way seems unlikely to me), Atlantis really was around for 15,000+ before the Cataclysm (I'm not convinced), or that when the Chiang-Ku "invented" Tattoo Magic they really just re-created the magic from the Palladium World. I'm not sure this was ever intended, but I actually kind of like this idea. This would explain why the Chiang-Ku know all too well that even seeing Tattoo Magic used could entice someone to developing it.

Razorwing wrote:
I am not suggesting that Atlanteans were never on Palladium... or that they didn't bring Tattoo Magic to this world... it is possible that they could as they were dimensional explorers and could have appeared at any point in Palladium's history and come from any point in Atlantis' history.

For the record, I didn't think you were making the claim. My problem came from what's written in Mysteries of Magic, not anything you said. To explain ...

Mysteries of Magic tells us that Tattoo Magic and Stone Magic (as well as other types) were saved by taking them off world (basically into other dimensions). This means even they the various types of magic were destroyed (so to speak) on the Palladium World, they still existed in the Megaverse (as such, they're not lost, or "saved"). However, for this to be true, it basically means that the magic couldn't exist anywhere else in the Megaverse. However, we know that Atlantis and Lemuria existed before the Millennium of Purification (probably for a good 8000+ years). So for the Mysteries of Magic line of saving Tattoo Magic and Stone Magic to make sense; every True Atlantean, every Chiang-Ku, every Lemurian (who also knew Stone Magic), etc. had to be living on the Palladium World at the time. While this doesn't make sense, we'd then also have to believe all of these races panicked to escape as the Elves and Dwarves tried to eradicate them.

Honestly, the line comes off (to me) as trying to take the stance that basically all magic in the Megaverse started on the Palladium World and was "saved" by sending them to other worlds, where other cultures would then get to learn and develop them. I'm not fond of the notion, as it sounds a little too ... hard at trying to make the Palladium World the center of the universe and super ultra special and ... ugh, I don't like the concept, and the logistics are even worse. I state this as a Palladium Fantasy fan first and foremost. I guess to me, it's kind of like that person who is kind of cool already, but then goes out of his way to try and grandstand and makes up stories to make themselves sound even bigger and more important, and just serves as a turnoff instead, especially when the story they tell sounds nonsensical instead of awesome.

Okay, sorry, side rant over (maybe*). Back to the topic at hand, hopefully some of the time tables and perhaps even ideas help in some way. Also, interestingly, in Dragons & Gods (page 23 again, same section again) there was a blurb that read: "it may be presented in a future fantasy supplement that deals with past ages." This suggests, at least at one point, they did consider doing at least one era book (possibly one that compiled a few different ages, hard to say for sure). Of course, that was about 21 years ago I think. Palladium has probably forgotten about the idea by now. However, it does suggest that they may open to the idea if someone can write-up a good and interesting take on it. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:09 pm
  

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Hero

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Comment: ['You have a dizzying intellect' Dread Pirate Roberts] - Prysus
Well I already have palladium at the centre of the dimensions and the astral and ethereal planes like a cut all the way into the onion layered totality existence (with creatures of the outer dark beyond the outer layer), and magic spread out in waves from the centre, that's why the old ones hung out in palladium in the first place, there would have to be something special about palladium otherwise why would the old ones fight so hard for it rather than


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:34 am
  

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Hero

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Prysus...

We actually can't be sure of exactly when the timeline of Earth and that of Palladium sync... for time is not a constant when traveling between dimensions. While both Palladium and Earth seem to have years of roughly the same length... we can't be sure that the present in either world is the present of the other... especially when we start talking about different times on Earth.

Is Palladium's present the same present as presented on Rifts Earth (23rd or 24th century)? Chaos Earth (Late 21st century)? Heroes Unlimited/Nightbane (early 21st century)? or Beyond the Supernatural (mid to late 20th Century)?

We already know that rifts between dimensions can transcend time... Victor Lazlo traveled from the mid to late 20th Century to Rifts Earth (some time in the 90s PA). We know that Erin Tarn was missing for approximately 5 years on Rifts Earth, though from her perspective, she was gone only a couple of years. The Tundra Rangers operating out of Northern Canada were a branch of N.E.M.A. from the time of the Great Cataclysm that experienced a time skip of nearly 200 years overnight.

So, while we have an estimate of the time of the Atlantean catastrophe from Earth's perspective... from Palladium's perspective that could have happened during the Time of 1000 magics... the Battle of the Gods... the Age of the Elves... the Elf-Dwarf War... the Age of Man... or hasn't happened yet.

The point is... just because something happened 15,000 years ago from Earth's perspective... it doesn't mean it happened 15,000 years ago from Palladium Fantasy's perspective as we don't know exactly where PF and RE timelines sync up... or if they do (one can travel to Palladium from the present in Rifts Earth and return to Earth from Palladium and wind up in Chaos Earth, Heroes Unlimited, Beyond the Supernatual or even at the height of Atlantis). Remember, even though it is mentioned that Atlanteans only live for about 600 years (iirc), it is known that there are some Atlanteans traveling the Multiverse that were eye-witnesses to the Cataclysm their people caused... 15,000 years ago (and no, these individuals haven't extended their lifespans to over 15,000 years... they've merely skipped thousands of years of time).

Time is not a constant between dimensions... we can't assume that 15,000 years ago on Earth was 15,000 years ago on Palladium.

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