Enchantments and bolas and nets and striking

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Tor
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Enchantments and bolas and nets and striking

Unread post by Tor »

A lot of weapon proficiencies list bonus to strike and throw separately. WP net has a bonus to strike. Do you take this to mean a bonus only applies when whipping people to inflict damage in close-range and not when throwing the net over somebody? Would the strike bonus apply to anything else, trippling someone's legs up or snaring their weapon? Seems a lot of reliance on natural numbers.

I think WP small thrown / targetting might be an exception there, since it is exclusively about throwing even though it says "+strike" we can take that to mean "+throw" in solely this circumstance.

What I'm wondering: if a net was enchanted as a Magic Weapon and given the propert of indestructible, does any PF book have a guideline on how long it would take to escape? The only time we're given is that to CUT free (d4+1)

There is a net gun in Rifts Lone Star which says 2 melees to cut free, longer if you have to squirm free, although it gives people with a higher physical strength the ability to escape a net in less time, but in this case it's a weighted-down net. Do you think WP net in PF is also weighted-down?

If a net or bola were enchanted with 'returns to wielder when thrown', it's clear enough that if you throw them and they miss or get dodged that they come back to you... but what happens if you successfully net a target or wrap up a target in your bola? Does the enchantment drag them back to you along with your weapon? Does their weight prevent your weapon from returning? Could it depend on the mass of what you ensnare? Rules for this would be cool.

Is it possible to make a bola or net out of chains instead of rope? I know that holy and rune weapons usually have to be metal (though I think there were some NPC gods with exceptions somewhere) and that the metal doesn't have to be all 1 piece (am pretty sure I saw a rune flail or rune mace+chain somewhere) so could a rune-net or rune-bola (or holy net or holy bola) be made?
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Re: Enchantments and bolas and nets and striking

Unread post by zyanitevp »

Tor wrote:A lot of weapon proficiencies list bonus to strike and throw separately. WP net has a bonus to strike. Do you take this to mean a bonus only applies when whipping people to inflict damage in close-range and not when throwing the net over somebody? Would the strike bonus apply to anything else, trippling someone's legs up or snaring their weapon? Seems a lot of reliance on natural numbers.
I use the strike for net for both trip and throw.
Tor wrote:I think WP small thrown / targetting might be an exception there, since it is exclusively about throwing even though it says "+strike" we can take that to mean "+throw" in solely this circumstance.
I do not apply targeting to net, as it is not listed in the weapons that targeting applies to.
Tor wrote:What I'm wondering: if a net was enchanted as a Magic Weapon and given the propert of indestructible, does any PF book have a guideline on how long it would take to escape? The only time we're given is that to CUT free (d4+1)
I would go with magic net rules.
Tor wrote:There is a net gun in Rifts Lone Star which says 2 melees to cut free, longer if you have to squirm free, although it gives people with a higher physical strength the ability to escape a net in less time, but in this case it's a weighted-down net. Do you think WP net in PF is also weighted-down?
Yes- a non-weighted net would be hard to use effectively.
Tor wrote:If a net or bola were enchanted with 'returns to wielder when thrown', it's clear enough that if you throw them and they miss or get dodged that they come back to you... but what happens if you successfully net a target or wrap up a target in your bola? Does the enchantment drag them back to you along with your weapon? Does their weight prevent your weapon from returning? Could it depend on the mass of what you ensnare? Rules for this would be cool.
I would say no- none of the weapons that return say they bring a victim back- even if stuck.
Tor wrote:Is it possible to make a bola or net out of chains instead of rope? I know that holy and rune weapons usually have to be metal (though I think there were some NPC gods with exceptions somewhere) and that the metal doesn't have to be all 1 piece (am pretty sure I saw a rune flail or rune mace+chain somewhere) so could a rune-net or rune-bola (or holy net or holy bola) be made?

I would allow it as a holy weapon specific to a God/Goddess- but enormously rare.
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Tor
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Re: Enchantments and bolas and nets and striking

Unread post by Tor »

zyanitevp wrote:
Tor wrote:I think WP small thrown / targetting might be an exception there, since it is exclusively about throwing even though it says "+strike" we can take that to mean "+throw" in solely this circumstance.
I do not apply targeting to net, as it is not listed in the weapons that targeting applies to.
Nor do I, just using it as an example where "+1 to strike" is used to indicate throwing attacks. In this case the phrase "when thrown or slung" precedes the + to strike rather than following it, as with other weapons.

I think ideally rather than "+ to strike" and "+ when thrown" it might be better to say "+ to strike in close range" (or similar phrasing) just to make it clear that it's an either/or situation (rather than stacking +strike when thrown on top of ambiguous + strike). I think the books rely on player sensibilities (easier to hit a target when you hang on to a sword rather than throwing the sword) rather than RAW, unless I missed a "only -plus strike when thrown- strike bonuses apply to thrown strikes- phrase somewhere.

zyanitevp wrote:I would go with magic net rules.
The 'magic net' spell is indestructible to normal and can be cut through by magic, a magic weapon net enchanted to be indestuctible would not be cuttable by magic weapons. Plus it wouldn't fade away like the spell does... so it's not exactly workable. We need a 'squirm free' option for uncuttable nets to escape them, barring other tricks (teleporting out, teleporting it off you, turning intangible, etc)

zyanitevp wrote:none of the weapons that return say they bring a victim back- even if stuck.
I guess the question is then: what happens if a player catches your weapon?

It's possible for some to actually grab a thrown weapon (actually pretty easy in N&SS, not sure what rules are for it in other settings) so if it has return when thrown, either the weapon doesn't return, or the grabber comes along with the weapon, or it's impossible to keep ahold of a returning weapon.

Whatever applies to people-grabbing-weapons would be similar to weapons-grabbing-people I figure.
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Re: Enchantments and bolas and nets and striking

Unread post by Thinyser »

Tor wrote:A lot of weapon proficiencies list bonus to strike and throw separately. WP net has a bonus to strike. Do you take this to mean a bonus only applies when whipping people to inflict damage in close-range and not when throwing the net over somebody? Would the strike bonus apply to anything else, trippling someone's legs up or snaring their weapon? Seems a lot of reliance on natural numbers.
mine says "strike or entangle" So you can either try to whip them with it (and possibly do damage from the weights) or entangle their weapon, or them, with it. Same bonuses apply.

Snaring a weapon and disarming requires a natural 18-20 on the net wielder's side and requires a similarly high natural roll to parry on the defender's side.

I think WP small thrown / targetting might be an exception there, since it is exclusively about throwing even though it says "+strike" we can take that to mean "+throw" in solely this circumstance.
Agreed.

What I'm wondering: if a net was enchanted as a Magic Weapon and given the property of indestructible, does any PF book have a guideline on how long it would take to escape? The only time we're given is that to CUT free (d4+1)
They could get out but I think it would take significantly longer. How long? the 1d4 minutes of the netgun from loan start seems a bit much I would say It takes 2 or maybe 3 times as long as it does to cut free.

There is a net gun in Rifts Lone Star which says 2 melees to cut free, longer if you have to squirm free, although it gives people with a higher physical strength the ability to escape a net in less time, but in this case it's a weighted-down net. Do you think WP net in PF is also weighted-down?
Any net that would be used in combat would have weights around the edges. Either a chain that goes around the entire circumference or at the end of certain spokes (assuming it was a spider web type design) or at the corners (if it was square). Fishing nets are a different ball of wax and probably not pertinent to the question.

If a net or bola were enchanted with 'returns to wielder when thrown', it's clear enough that if you throw them and they miss or get dodged that they come back to you... but what happens if you successfully net a target or wrap up a target in your bola? Does the enchantment drag them back to you along with your weapon? Does their weight prevent your weapon from returning? Could it depend on the mass of what you ensnare? Rules for this would be cool.
I would rule that it only returns when it misses. Once it hits its meant to stay on the entangled target so that's what it does. I agree official rules on stuff like this would be nice.

Is it possible to make a bola or net out of chains instead of rope? I know that holy and rune weapons usually have to be metal (though I think there were some NPC gods with exceptions somewhere) and that the metal doesn't have to be all 1 piece (am pretty sure I saw a rune flail or rune mace+chain somewhere) so could a rune-net or rune-bola (or holy net or holy bola) be made?
There is a rune whip in the books I believe its in Mt Nimro. It does not detail its construction but it looks like a regular bullwhip made of leather.

That said there is no reason why a chain bola or net couldn't be made. They would be very similar in form and function to their normally constructed counterparts. Of course they would be much heavier and would probably have some penalties due to this.
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Re: Enchantments and bolas and nets and striking

Unread post by kiralon »

Tor wrote:Is it possible to make a bola or net out of chains instead of rope? I know that holy and rune weapons usually have to be metal (though I think there were some NPC gods with exceptions somewhere) and that the metal doesn't have to be all 1 piece (am pretty sure I saw a rune flail or rune mace+chain somewhere) so could a rune-net or rune-bola (or holy net or holy bola) be made?


Even though the book states they must be a certain colour and metal the books aren't known for their consistency, There is the mucklechuck which is stated to be a wooden war club, and 2 rune books, and rumours of stone rune weapons as well.
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Re: Enchantments and bolas and nets and striking

Unread post by eliakon »

kiralon wrote:
Tor wrote:Is it possible to make a bola or net out of chains instead of rope? I know that holy and rune weapons usually have to be metal (though I think there were some NPC gods with exceptions somewhere) and that the metal doesn't have to be all 1 piece (am pretty sure I saw a rune flail or rune mace+chain somewhere) so could a rune-net or rune-bola (or holy net or holy bola) be made?


Even though the book states they must be a certain colour and metal the books aren't known for their consistency, There is the mucklechuck which is stated to be a wooden war club, and 2 rune books, and rumours of stone rune weapons as well.

Not a rumor, there is a stone rune dagger in the Island at the End of the World book
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Re: Enchantments and bolas and nets and striking

Unread post by Tor »

Thinyser wrote:mine says "strike or entangle" So you can either try to whip them with it (and possibly do damage from the weights) or entangle their weapon, or them, with it. Same bonuses apply.
Right, but entangle is a defensive move, and it involves you keeping ahold of someone and them rolling dodges to beat your strike to try and escape it. Throwing a net onto someone sounds like something different.

Snaring a weapon and disarming requires a natural 18-20 on the net wielder's side and requires a similarly high natural roll to parry on the defender's side.

Thinyser wrote:There is a rune whip in the books I believe its in Mt Nimro. It does not detail its construction but it looks like a regular bullwhip made of leather.

Guess organics are in then.

kiralon wrote:the book states they must be a certain colour and metal

PF2nd can't seem to keep consistent on the same page about this. Pg 250 right column goes from mentioning "staves and even arrows" and legends of stone rune weapons, and then says ALL rune weapons are made of metal.

Although it doesn't say "entirely of metal" so perhaps we could take that to mean there just has to be some metal in it somewhere? Maybe those stone weapons and books have a metal core?
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Re: Enchantments and bolas and nets and striking

Unread post by kiralon »

Tor wrote: Although it doesn't say "entirely of metal" so perhaps we could take that to mean there just has to be some metal in it somewhere? Maybe those stone weapons and books have a metal core?


I just ignore the made of metal bit, as shown a few writers for palladium did so I don't think it matters.
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Re: Enchantments and bolas and nets and striking

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