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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:14 am
  

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Hey,

Here are some great questions and the answers from a guy named SRS who dropped me a message:

1. Ralph the Red (p.107-9) has the advantage ambidextrous at first level. However, ambidextrous lists Enhanced Neurological Connection as a prerequisite (p.86). Does ambidextrous require ENC, or is this an errata?

- I think the prerequisite was added in editing, so ralph should have had it before taking ambidextrous, editing error, but leave the ENC requsite in.

2. Ralph the Red's combat bonuses list +2 attacks per melee while in direct sunlight. However, the photosynthetic metabolism description (p.76) only indicates +1 attack per melee. I first thought that the extra attack was from ambidextrous, but that extra attack would be included regardless of the level of sunlight.

- It is from that is what it is from, but it was rewriten that way to save space, alot of stuff had to be crunched to get it all into the book, and a lot still got left on the cutting room floor.

3. In the Other Notables, John LaCount's Archangel wingpack has a chameleon skin and an gore cannon. (a) Does the chameleon skin apply only to the wingpack, or to the living armor as well; (b) the gore cannon description states that gore weapons have a prerequisite of carnivore, herbivore, lithovore or omnivore metabolisms. The wingpack appears to be photosynthetic. Is this a errata, or do wingpack weapons not follow the same prerequisite rules?

- They do follow the rules but the metabolism note was added later and I forgot about his. The skin just covers the wingpack, but that covers 60% of John's body and he can wrap the wings around himself when on the ground to hide.

4. Does the Resistance to Electricity advantage (p.84-5) also grant the recipient damage reduction from ion and/or particle weapons?

- no.

5. Can OCC's with Host Armor (e.g., Dreadguard) use a wingpack? If so, can the wingpack be integrated into the armor? What would the Bio-E cost be to use and/or integrate a wingpack?

- They could, but it would be clamped on over the host armor, not integrated into it.

6. Does a character need to be wearing the Host Armor when it feeds. If so, it would appear that the armor would have to be constantly worn in order to feed or it would starve.

- Yes for those that must actively eat, like the Carnivors, but no for those that can just lay there and soak up the sun or heat, like the photosynthics.

7. What type of energy is the Omega Blast ? Does resistance to heat, lasers, etc. provide any protection?

- It is 'raw' energy, no they dont.

8. Does the electrical discharger and/or lightning weapon do additional damage when a robot has exposed wiring or reduced MDC ?

- That would be your GM's call, but would tend to say yes.

9. What is the maximum running speed of Host Armor ? In the increased speed advantage section (p.86), it first states that the max running speed is 300 mph, but in the example section of the advantage it lists max speed as 150 MPH.

- The example part is a typo, its 300 mph.

10. Assuming that Splicers is successful [ (fingers-crossed ], what new supplements are planned, and when will they likely be released? I would love to see more info on psionic experiments, the engineers, librarians, gene-pools, and seedlings, as well as new bio-tech and robots.

- I will be doing more but can tell you exactly what at this time, sorry.

Thanks again for a great game, and any input you can provide regarding the above.

- Also there are two bugs I caught today, on page 101, flame weapons, the part where it says Once per melee, but counts as two melee actions. Under rate of fire is wrong for both flame weapons, just cross out the second part. It should read: Rate of Fire: Once per melee round.

- Plus under Pod Pistol, a pod pistol is a Light Bio-weapon.

- Sorry for the mistakes but it is my first new game and only my third whole book!?! :D

Regards, Carmen.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:37 pm
  

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I won't go into a list of all the stuff I came up with, but here are a couple before I put up my full review.


1. How the bloody heck is anyone in Splicers supposed to be ignorant of what planet they are on? You talk about the machines changing the continents, etc... etc... but seem to forget about a very simply detail: people can still look up into the sky, and even have a skill called 'astronomy' not to mention Land Navigation and other skills.

No offense, but even with a massive apocolypse, people are still going to know if they are on earth or not. Even ancient men used the stars to navigate, and what was in the sky was perhaps one of the first things that was ever recorded and used for a common point of referance. If people have heard of 'earth' and things like the english language have survived, they are going to know pretty much where they are.

Instead of being mysterious about this and saying "hmmm, well it's probably some kind of colony planet" you should have been straightforward. I mean if I look up into the sky and attempt to use "Land Navigation" what am I using? Am I navigating using the existing constellations and the north star, or a totally alien starscape? I'm going to figure this out pretty bloody fast, and even if the characters were ignorant the players are going to know with such a simple question.

Assuming it's a colony world, where the heck is the goverment that created the colony? I'm not buying that the Nanite Plague would have travelled through an entire galactic human dystopia because it doesn't work that way. It was pointed out in the 'megeversal' section that Splicers characters visiting other worlds can't spread the plague just by going there. This means that the plague couldn't have been spread.

Even with nuclear weapons I'd give the machines maybe a year before a coordinated response blew the living crud out of them.

If it's earth, things make a bit more sense, but your also looking at a situation where if technology was as high as is implied before the Machines took over that there are probably colonies out there that would be coming back to re-take the homeworld. If people think that Splicers might be a colony world, obviously they have some reason for thinking so which seems to imply that such technology existed.

All told when I read this I was sitting here going "What?". I was jokingly thinking of splicers as "The first RPG where it's illegal to look into the sky, or actually use your Astronomy skill". :)


2. Memory discs and such things aside, I can't see books (which are not metal) being totally destroyed. Again this goes with the whole 'I don't buy this whole premise of ignorance' concept.

Even if they didn't exist (I do not buy the idea of books ever becoming obselete, and being totally replaced, regardless of what some science fiction writers seem to think), you've still got a whole group of people that can use technology and would be reading their discs and passing this information on (even if they are generally disliked).

Again, you wind up with a situation where anyone who isn't retarded is going to have a good grasp of what is going on, even if they don't much care for the 'tech users' they depend on for their information (they can always look at a viewscreen themself to verify information without setting off a nano-response).

No offense, but I can't help but snicker whenever I think of the whole "We don't even know if this is earth or not" idea. :)

3. Is the amount of Bio-E on the "Biotic" a misprint? I was thinking that 3d4x10 is a bit low. The Biotic doesn't even get the ME + PE bonus that the other characters do.

I realize Palladium games are not inherantly balanced, but it struck me as being odd that such a character would be so kitten-like compared to other OCCs especially seeing as they suffer the disadvantage of gradual insanity and such.

They don't even wind up being the equivilent of your average suit of armor, and gain less Bio-E from advancement than pretty much anything else.

I would think that they would receive more Bio-E than say a Dreadguard gets at first level, balanced by the insanity, and the fact that they don't usually get much more as they advance.

Plus I notice that the Biotic class mentions that they get slicer strength automatically, but in the 'features' section it mentions they they have to buy it.

Any way it goes, I'm thinking this game is probably going to generate one heck of an errata if anyone takes the time.

4. According to the way how things are written, plastic is not affected by the nano-plague. I don't think this has been thought through very well.

Most electronic devices and stuff are contained inside of plastic. To be quite frank you don't touch much metal using a lot of modern technology. For example in using my keyboard I'm not touching any metal (although there are several things around me that could kill me if there was a nanite plague).

The way how things are defined, I'm not buying that all technology would pretty much be abandoned. All you'd see is a lot of heavy plastic casing around the stuff that people wanted to use.

Even if that didn't work, electronics would continue to flourish. I mean we've got bio-technology that generated electricity. There is no reason why some bio-technologists couldn't create technology (as opposed to purely living organisms) by making wires out of electricity-generating biological material and then put them inside of a casing. It might be weird to have to feed your computer a steak every once in a while to keep it's electrical components healthy, but it's workable. Plus you could also make a lot of the technology photosynthetic (transparent plastic casing) which wouldn't be much worse than solar-power if it was implemented correctly.

Given records and such I would think that logically people would begin to realize what had went wrong with the AI. Then they could builder faster, sexier, computers (perhaps without AI components) to hack the thing and shut it down.

Not to mention the fact that the whole idea of microscopic robots is a complicated way of doing something that should be simple to do with bio-tech (ie your basically creating a germ). I see no reason why someone doesn't just use uber-bio-technology to create a living anti-body for the nanite plague and release it (ie a microscopic bio-organism that exists for no reason other than to eat the machine's nanites).

This covers a lot of my conceptual problems. My review will eventually touch on a lot of things. To be honest I'm having some trouble getting my head around large portions of the central premise. All science fiction has some kind of holes in it but this one seems to have more than the usual share.

>>>----Therumancer--->


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:31 pm
  

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Therumancer wrote a blistering little piece so I will see if I can quickly go over the points.

1. How the bloody heck is anyone in Splicers supposed to be ignorant of what planet they are on? You talk about the machines changing the continents, etc... etc... but seem to forget about a very simply detail: people can still look up into the sky, and even have a skill called 'astronomy' not to mention Land Navigation and other skills.

No offense, but even with a massive apocolypse, people are still going to know if they are on earth or not. Even ancient men used the stars to navigate, and what was in the sky was perhaps one of the first things that was ever recorded and used for a common point of referance. If people have heard of 'earth' and things like the english language have survived, they are going to know pretty much where they are.

- The point is that the people dont have any historical records to draw upon and people were too busy trying to stay alive to tell their kids "Well honey this is Earth and we were her first" or something like that. They just dont think about what planet they are on. Indeed the reference is only there so that readers like you will relize that these people are ignorant of their past, history and culture. That is the whole point of it.


2. Memory discs and such things aside, I can't see books (which are not metal) being totally destroyed. Again this goes with the whole 'I don't buy this whole premise of ignorance' concept.

- There are a few books remaining that are horrded by the "Bookworms" an OCC that was cut due to space. But most of these individuals think it is their secret right and duty to keep that knowledge from the people and especially the Librarians. They also actively try to prevent anyone from learning the secrets of their past untill the machine is stopped and the word is theirs again. I hope to cover them in the first sourcebook.

3. Is the amount of Bio-E on the "Biotic" a misprint? I was thinking that 3d4x10 is a bit low. The Biotic doesn't even get the ME + PE bonus that the other characters do.

- No that is correct, afterall these are the rejects of society to be used as cannon fodder against the machine, not basic troopers or the elites that the other characters represent. Afterall would you give a psycho your biggest gun, or hold back the best one to control the psycho with.

Plus I notice that the Biotic class mentions that they get slicer strength automatically, but in the 'features' section it mentions they they have to buy it.

- That part is a typo created during a change in editing, sorry.

Any way it goes, I'm thinking this game is probably going to generate one heck of an errata if anyone takes the time.

- More than likely all new games do.

4. According to the way how things are written, plastic is not affected by the nano-plague. I don't think this has been thought through very well.

- Read the plague again, indirect contact like that just is not possible. Plus the plague prevents the use of all modern tech, not just a knife, so a lap top in a plastic case will also generate a plague response.

This covers a lot of my conceptual problems. My review will eventually touch on a lot of things. To be honest I'm having some trouble getting my head around large portions of the central premise. All science fiction has some kind of holes in it but this one seems to have more than the usual share.

- My best advice is pretty much standard, if you cant live with an element of the game world, change it to suit your needs. YOU are the GM right? I am just the one giving you the bare bones to work with, it is up to each GM to bring those bones to life.

- BTW thanks for the critizism, after all you cant be a writer without a critic (and yes I know my spelling sucks). Thanks Carmen. :D


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Unread postPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 9:55 pm
  

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I wanna address this whole not know what planet you are on. Land Nav is far more than terrain based. It involved the movement of the sun and stars, certain regional conditions (as, what side does moss grow on in this hemisphere) and various other "grounded" features as well. A different planet would, in only the rarest cases, be exactly the same. In fact, skills used in one hemisphere of earth would not work in another. Quite quickly, any one with this skill would figure it out. Also, are there no ruins? If I know that a particular town was to the east, the ocean to the west, and mountains to the North; the kind of thigs you learn driving around town, then these features would be consistent after an apokalypse.

And I'm sorry Carmen, the "too busy to pass on that sort of thing" is not consistent with the reality of human beings, their oral tradition of instruction and historical teachings, and their social dynamic as a conscious being. even in the most severe hardship, we have passed on our culture to our young unless the entirety of the culture was obliterated. That pockets of humans would not know the NAME "Earth" and such is possible, but to not have knowledge of their location is not reasonable. To not have had the elders, saying in front of their kids, things like "We are gonna wipe em from the face of the Earth" or :Dammit, we were here first" at the very least stretched plausibility. There might be groups with different versions of the story, as happens in oral traditions , social group to social group, but the tale it self persists. Look at Noah's ark and its existence in everything from Greek culture to Pacific Northwest Native groups. The story persists. Yous "too busy" is a weak, and futile, defense of this plot hole.

Third, science. How do the people who are not PCs feed and clothe themselves? If so much plant and animal life is gone, how are the non-PCs with their bio armor and such sustained? How do they keep warm and hydrated? How do they purify and clarify wild water? How do they make fire? Does the wood burn the same color as it did before? Does the charred remains look and smell the same? Does it act the same? Does the soil bear the same insects, rock types and the like?

Has the author considered what effect this has had on treatment of the dead? Humans in such conditions most likely have begun the ancient traditions of recycling the dead through construction of artifacts from their remains and/or the consumption of their flesh and fluids. How, and in what ways is social human culture, let alone the biological human surviving?

This premise is, as I have said before, one of the reasons I am having trouble with this book and have not bought it yet.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:42 am
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Writers Block wrote:
I wanna address this whole not know what planet you are on. Land Nav is far more than terrain based. It involved the movement of the sun and stars, certain regional conditions (as, what side does moss grow on in this hemisphere) and various other "grounded" features as well. A different planet would, in only the rarest cases, be exactly the same. In fact, skills used in one hemisphere of earth would not work in another. Quite quickly, any one with this skill would figure it out. Also, are there no ruins? If I know that a particular town was to the east, the ocean to the west, and mountains to the North; the kind of thigs you learn driving around town, then these features would be consistent after an apokalypse.


And with people relying on GPS technology and computer created maps etc who would bother knowing all that still? And so they no where ruins are, how does that help them figure out what planet they're on?

Quote:
And I'm sorry Carmen, the "too busy to pass on that sort of thing" is not consistent with the reality of human beings, their oral tradition of instruction and historical teachings, and their social dynamic as a conscious being. even in the most severe hardship, we have passed on our culture to our young unless the entirety of the culture was obliterated. That pockets of humans would not know the NAME "Earth" and such is possible, but to not have knowledge of their location is not reasonable. To not have had the elders, saying in front of their kids, things like "We are gonna wipe em from the face of the Earth" or :Dammit, we were here first" at the very least stretched plausibility. There might be groups with different versions of the story, as happens in oral traditions , social group to social group, but the tale it self persists. Look at Noah's ark and its existence in everything from Greek culture to Pacific Northwest Native groups. The story persists. Yous "too busy" is a weak, and futile, defense of this plot hole.


Or they really were to busy and no one thought it was an important thing to say, "Heh, the planet we're on... it's Earth! You know the real one!" And again, what if some other group gets it wrong and believes they have to be on an alien planet and they meet up with another group. How does one group prove their tradition is right over the others?

Quote:
Third, science. How do the people who are not PCs feed and clothe themselves? If so much plant and animal life is gone, how are the non-PCs with their bio armor and such sustained? How do they keep warm and hydrated? How do they purify and clarify wild water? How do they make fire? Does the wood burn the same color as it did before? Does the charred remains look and smell the same? Does it act the same? Does the soil bear the same insects, rock types and the like?


The seem to be doing that via the various bio-tech items they 'grow' underground. Take a look at the 'Seedlings' on page 21. As to the rest... does that REALLY matter to your game???

Quote:
Has the author considered what effect this has had on treatment of the dead? Humans in such conditions most likely have begun the ancient traditions of recycling the dead through construction of artifacts from their remains and/or the consumption of their flesh and fluids. How, and in what ways is social human culture, let alone the biological human surviving?


I'm sure they're pretty desperate and the simple fact that they can use the remains to help save their lives is a bit more important to them, and their social structure has changed to reflect that. Otherwise the groups that can't make that change probably got wiped out. Social Evolution.

Quote:
This premise is, as I have said before, one of the reasons I am having trouble with this book and have not bought it yet.


Well it's a really interesting book, and it's a shame that you're missing out.



Daniel Stoker

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 2:20 am
  

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I like the fact that you can make it whatever planet you want, I usualy adapt games to suit my story anyway and this will be used with great adaptation. I've only started reading the first few pages; but after a skim-through, I can see that I like the concepts and will definitely get alot of use from this book. I've already got some idead for bio-weapons , but I'll wait to read the rest of it before I start creating things. I'm liking it alot so far ,Carmen.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:01 am
  

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Writers Block wrote:
I wanna address this whole not know what planet you are on. Land Nav is far more than terrain based. It involved the movement of the sun and stars, certain regional conditions (as, what side does moss grow on in this hemisphere) and various other "grounded" features as well. A different planet would, in only the rarest cases, be exactly the same. In fact, skills used in one hemisphere of earth would not work in another. Quite quickly, any one with this skill would figure it out. Also, are there no ruins? If I know that a particular town was to the east, the ocean to the west, and mountains to the North; the kind of thigs you learn driving around town, then these features would be consistent after an apokalypse.


Actually...that is two different skills... Land Navigation is a skill allowing you to navigate by use of terrain features alone. It does not use maps...well paper or computer maps anyway. It's of the I turned right at the "X" shaped tree, went to the table shaped rock, etc. It was / is used extensively by native populations around the world who had no maps etc... In the modern world, it is as I've said above, and used to create mental maps of your environment to allow you to go from your home to job, but without following the exact same route day-in and day-out.

Writers Block wrote:
And I'm sorry Carmen, the "too busy to pass on that sort of thing" is not consistent with the reality of human beings, their oral tradition of instruction and historical teachings, and their social dynamic as a conscious being. even in the most severe hardship, we have passed on our culture to our young unless the entirety of the culture was obliterated. That pockets of humans would not know the NAME "Earth" and such is possible, but to not have knowledge of their location is not reasonable. To not have had the elders, saying in front of their kids, things like "We are gonna wipe em from the face of the Earth" or :Dammit, we were here first" at the very least stretched plausibility. There might be groups with different versions of the story, as happens in oral traditions , social group to social group, but the tale it self persists. Look at Noah's ark and its existence in everything from Greek culture to Pacific Northwest Native groups. The story persists. Yous "too busy" is a weak, and futile, defense of this plot hole.


Uh...yes and no...
Oral histories are created after generations of something happening. In a supertech world such as of Carmen's creation oral histories would have fallen by the way-side. Most families also have little in the way of Family Histories any more either. Anything beyond a generation or two in most parts of the modern world are unknown, and replaced by structured learning methods that teach specific knowledge, and little of the generalised Oral stuff.

Besides, as for Oral Histories, if you want to find out how reliable some of them are, take a circle of twenty people, using each to represent one generation, whisper something in the first person's ear, then they whisper it in the ear of the next person, etc, etc... The message becomes garbled after just two or three "generations" as people begin to mis-understand, mishear, and mis-remember the message.
Now, admittedly oral histories can be obscenely accurate, that is among pre-literate societies, where a good memory is needed, and is more of a survival trait than it is in today's world. Tell someone from a pre-literate society a detailed piece of information, and they will remember it for life... So, for the following couple of generations, until the ability to read is lost, and the need for a good memory again becomes a survival trait, a great deal of knowledge would be lost!

Writers Block wrote:
Third, science. How do the people who are not PCs feed and clothe themselves? If so much plant and animal life is gone, how are the non-PCs with their bio armor and such sustained? How do they keep warm and hydrated? How do they purify and clarify wild water? How do they make fire? Does the wood burn the same color as it did before? Does the charred remains look and smell the same? Does it act the same? Does the soil bear the same insects, rock types and the like?

Depending on the way the "plague" works, possibly not, since there are metals in the soil, and they are taken up by plants (and are actually needed by the human body). As for insects, there may be some ecological niches open due to the plague...who knows, a mosquito landing on an "activated" butter knife may be killed...Comments Carmen? :D

As for the rest of of the questions...Pass. :D

Writers Block wrote:
Has the author considered what effect this has had on treatment of the dead? Humans in such conditions most likely have begun the ancient traditions of recycling the dead through construction of artifacts from their remains and/or the consumption of their flesh and fluids. How, and in what ways is social human culture, let alone the biological human surviving?


Um...maybe.
The taboo against consumption of one's "own kind" is quite strong, and a large percentage of a population will starve first...although it will happen...look at the Donner Party, or the South American soccer team in the 70's(?) that crashed in the Andes. Even among Real World ritualistic cannibalistic cultures, cannibalism is still distasteful, and only performed when absolutely required. Among others, like the ancient Aztec, it was a weapon of terror and societal control... (ie: do what we say, or you may be the next in the stewpot!) The same is true of Human Sacrifice! :D

Writers Block wrote:
This premise is, as I have said before, one of the reasons I am having trouble with this book and have not bought it yet.


Personally, I have to admit, from what I've read...I'm going to have some problems with the new world too... (Sorry Carmen! :()

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 9:18 am
  

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Hello seems I was unclear.

I was asked: So which is correct? - Biotics come with Splicer P.S.

As for the followning bit:

And I'm sorry Carmen, the "too busy to pass on that sort of thing" is not consistent with the reality of human beings, their oral tradition of instruction and historical teachings, and their social dynamic as a conscious being. even in the most severe hardship, we have passed on our culture to our young unless the entirety of the culture was obliterated. That pockets of humans would not know the NAME "Earth" and such is possible, but to not have knowledge of their location is not reasonable. To not have had the elders, saying in front of their kids, things like "We are gonna wipe em from the face of the Earth" or :Dammit, we were here first" at the very least stretched plausibility. There might be groups with different versions of the story, as happens in oral traditions , social group to social group, but the tale it self persists. Look at Noah's ark and its existence in everything from Greek culture to Pacific Northwest Native groups. The story persists. Yous "too busy" is a weak, and futile, defense of this plot hole.

The point is that well some might say it is Earth, they dont know if it is the real Earth or a colony world called Earth, etc... but make it what ever world you like that is the whole idea. I tried to leave it a little vague so that each GM can fit it into his Megaverse how he wants. For instance, if it is to be in the same dimension as say Phase World (not counting for the low PPE) it is probably not our Earth, but if its in the same one as SKrapers, it may well be Earth. It is not such a big deal anyway.

Oh well have fun. :D


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:42 am
  

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Excellent work, Carmen. You've got one hell of a game on your hands here! :D

However, the mystery about the planet is significant enough that some people are getting hung up on it, and may have been more trouble than its worth as a plot device. For me, I'm planning to run it as a future Earth. It's much more tragic that way. But in all of the Q&A, I'm surprised that no one has asked the obvious question:

How many moons does the Splicers world have? :)

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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 10:52 am
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Todd Yoho wrote:

How many moons does the Splicers world have? :)



As many as the GM wants it to have I'm sure. ;)




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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:55 pm
  

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Therumancer wrote:
I won't go into a list of all the stuff I came up with, but here are a couple before I put up my full review.


1. How the bloody heck is anyone in Splicers supposed to be ignorant of what planet they are on? You talk about the machines changing the continents, etc... etc... but seem to forget about a very simply detail: people can still look up into the sky, and even have a skill called 'astronomy' not to mention Land Navigation and other skills.

[Consider the indigenous peoples on small islands. Didn't you read the part in the book that tells of the machine destroying what are essentially computer discs? So you have astronomy. So what? The people could be on a terraformed Mars.]

No offense, but even with a massive apocolypse, people are still going to know if they are on earth or not. Even ancient men used the stars to navigate, and what was in the sky was perhaps one of the first things that was ever recorded and used for a common point of referance. If people have heard of 'earth' and things like the english language have survived, they are going to know pretty much where they are.

[On a colony world populated by humans from Earth, of course one of the languages could be English. And even if they've heard of Earth, it doesn't mean they are on Earth, only that they came from there.]

Instead of being mysterious about this and saying "hmmm, well it's probably some kind of colony planet" you should have been straightforward. I mean if I look up into the sky and attempt to use "Land Navigation" what am I using? Am I navigating using the existing constellations and the north star, or a totally alien starscape? I'm going to figure this out pretty bloody fast, and even if the characters were ignorant the players are going to know with such a simple question.

[Compared to what? So it's a new starscape or they're on a terraformed Mars. Either way, they can pick new points of reference, just as those living on a far off colony planet would learn to do.]

Assuming it's a colony world, where the heck is the goverment that created the colony? I'm not buying that the Nanite Plague would have travelled through an entire galactic human dystopia because it doesn't work that way. It was pointed out in the 'megeversal' section that Splicers characters visiting other worlds can't spread the plague just by going there. This means that the plague couldn't have been spread.

[The Machine wiped out most of the humans in its first, unsuspected attack. The government and other key figures were the first to go, including the organized military.]

Even with nuclear weapons I'd give the machines maybe a year before a coordinated response blew the living crud out of them.

[???]

If it's earth, things make a bit more sense, but your also looking at a situation where if technology was as high as is implied before the Machines took over that there are probably colonies out there that would be coming back to re-take the homeworld. If people think that Splicers might be a colony world, obviously they have some reason for thinking so which seems to imply that such technology existed.

[You are so heavily focused on this. An independent colony. A self-sustaining colony, the remnants of which are being attacked by an intelligent Machine that can turn off all outside communication, or simply tell outsiders that 'everything is fine' when they request a report. This is an ,in effect, evil intelligence, that will use subtlety and deception along with mass murder to survive and complete its mission.]

All told when I read this I was sitting here going "What?". I was jokingly thinking of splicers as "The first RPG where it's illegal to look into the sky, or actually use your Astronomy skill". :)

[This a nonsensical remark. You are trying too hard to find fault. And I ask you: Why do you keep buying our books?]

2. Memory discs and such things aside, I can't see books (which are not metal) being totally destroyed. Again this goes with the whole 'I don't buy this whole premise of ignorance' concept.

Even if they didn't exist (I do not buy the idea of books ever becoming obselete, and being totally replaced, regardless of what some science fiction writers seem to think), you've still got a whole group of people that can use technology and would be reading their discs and passing this information on (even if they are generally disliked).

Again, you wind up with a situation where anyone who isn't retarded is going to have a good grasp of what is going on, even if they don't much care for the 'tech users' they depend on for their information (they can always look at a viewscreen themself to verify information without setting off a nano-response).

No offense, but I can't help but snicker whenever I think of the whole "We don't even know if this is earth or not" idea. :)

[I hesitate to bring this subject up. But it is not unusual to burn books and then have the new rulers of a country rewrite history to suit. In a recent real-life invasion on Earth, tanks from the invading side were sent to destroy libraries. In another real country, the new rulers declared it "Year Zero" and all history was banned, the people turning back to a primitive life.]

3. Is the amount of Bio-E on the "Biotic" a misprint? I was thinking that 3d4x10 is a bit low. The Biotic doesn't even get the ME + PE bonus that the other characters do.

I realize Palladium games are not inherantly balanced, but it struck me as being odd that such a character would be so kitten-like compared to other OCCs especially seeing as they suffer the disadvantage of gradual insanity and such.

They don't even wind up being the equivilent of your average suit of armor, and gain less Bio-E from advancement than pretty much anything else.

I would think that they would receive more Bio-E than say a Dreadguard gets at first level, balanced by the insanity, and the fact that they don't usually get much more as they advance.

Plus I notice that the Biotic class mentions that they get slicer strength automatically, but in the 'features' section it mentions they they have to buy it.

Any way it goes, I'm thinking this game is probably going to generate one heck of an errata if anyone takes the time.

4. According to the way how things are written, plastic is not affected by the nano-plague. I don't think this has been thought through very well.

Most electronic devices and stuff are contained inside of plastic. To be quite frank you don't touch much metal using a lot of modern technology. For example in using my keyboard I'm not touching any metal (although there are several things around me that could kill me if there was a nanite plague).

The way how things are defined, I'm not buying that all technology would pretty much be abandoned. All you'd see is a lot of heavy plastic casing around the stuff that people wanted to use.

Even if that didn't work, electronics would continue to flourish. I mean we've got bio-technology that generated electricity. There is no reason why some bio-technologists couldn't create technology (as opposed to purely living organisms) by making wires out of electricity-generating biological material and then put them inside of a casing. It might be weird to have to feed your computer a steak every once in a while to keep it's electrical components healthy, but it's workable. Plus you could also make a lot of the technology photosynthetic (transparent plastic casing) which wouldn't be much worse than solar-power if it was implemented correctly.

Given records and such I would think that logically people would begin to realize what had went wrong with the AI. Then they could builder faster, sexier, computers (perhaps without AI components) to hack the thing and shut it down.

Not to mention the fact that the whole idea of microscopic robots is a complicated way of doing something that should be simple to do with bio-tech (ie your basically creating a germ). I see no reason why someone doesn't just use uber-bio-technology to create a living anti-body for the nanite plague and release it (ie a microscopic bio-organism that exists for no reason other than to eat the machine's nanites).

This covers a lot of my conceptual problems. My review will eventually touch on a lot of things. To be honest I'm having some trouble getting my head around large portions of the central premise. All science fiction has some kind of holes in it but this one seems to have more than the usual share.

>>>----Therumancer--->



[You are obviously imagining your own version of the Splicers world. This is a planet where the remnants of the people are under constant assault by drones and robots. Think for a moment how your life would be affected by not having electricity. No internet or computers. The Machine knows this. Your logic does not cover any holes but is more in the direction of 'had I wrote this, it would have been explained my way."]

I ask again, Why do you keep buying our books? Is it only for the purpose of making the sort of remarks you make here? A few of which were interesting, and I do mean that respectfully.




Alex Marciniszyn,
Editor


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Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:37 pm
  

Adventurer

Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 2:16 am
Posts: 420
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Carmen wrote:
Hello seems I was unclear.

I was asked: So which is correct? - Biotics come with Splicer P.S.

As for the followning bit:

And I'm sorry Carmen, the "too busy to pass on that sort of thing" is not consistent with the reality of human beings, their oral tradition of instruction and historical teachings, and their social dynamic as a conscious being. even in the most severe hardship, we have passed on our culture to our young unless the entirety of the culture was obliterated. That pockets of humans would not know the NAME "Earth" and such is possible, but to not have knowledge of their location is not reasonable. To not have had the elders, saying in front of their kids, things like "We are gonna wipe em from the face of the Earth" or :Dammit, we were here first" at the very least stretched plausibility. There might be groups with different versions of the story, as happens in oral traditions , social group to social group, but the tale it self persists. Look at Noah's ark and its existence in everything from Greek culture to Pacific Northwest Native groups. The story persists. Yous "too busy" is a weak, and futile, defense of this plot hole.

The point is that well some might say it is Earth, they dont know if it is the real Earth or a colony world called Earth, etc... but make it what ever world you like that is the whole idea. I tried to leave it a little vague so that each GM can fit it into his Megaverse how he wants. For instance, if it is to be in the same dimension as say Phase World (not counting for the low PPE) it is probably not our Earth, but if its in the same one as SKrapers, it may well be Earth. It is not such a big deal anyway.

Oh well have fun. :D


It is clear that people are not getting my point. How do these children learn English (or whatever their lang is)? What stories were they told as children? What did their parents tell them when they asked where this place is and what do you call that place? These are all oral tradition and the basis of human socialization. For example, do we think it is coincidence that the same word we use for the planet, Earth, when stripped of its capital, earth, refers to the soil? No. That is what we call these things. It would be almost impossible, in a world where there is still adults educating the young, to lose these sorts of facts. Sorry. Take some higher level Anthropology classes...it just is unbelievable that it would happen worldwide...maybe, as I have said, in isolated pockets...

_________________
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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 5:48 pm
  

Palladium Books® Staff

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:04 pm
Posts: 2122
Therumancer wrote:
Okay to point out a few things here:



For example, if a Technojacker builds a computer and puts it inside of an MDC plastic case, it's 'nanite proof' irregardless of who uses it, unless that plastic case is somehow breached.


[What is the power source? Where is he getting his parts?]





Furthermore, humans are not prevented from using *ALL* metal. It's stated quite clearly that precious metals are still usable. This means that a material called 'copper' is availible for anyone's use. While replaced by other metals nowadays copper has been used for wiring, pipes, etc... for quite a long time.

The point here is that when the plague got going I think that given the existance of Techno-Jackers (in the very beginning)


they would have figured out what they can and cannot do.

[How do you "know" this?]


2. I disagree about Land Navigation. If it only worked in areas where you are already familiar with the terreign it would be useless. The idea of the skill is to help characters who are lost find their way and get moving in the right general direction.

Even if someone was to make that arguement, it's kind of irrelevent as "Astronomy and Navigation" is an elective skill. So apparently knowledge of astronomy has survived.


[You are assuming that humans are in disrupted area of the United States or similar. You are ignoring more primitive means of land navigation. For example, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. A certain star at night means north. A certain river runs north and south. American Indians placed piles of stones and used them as landmarks.]





3. Knowledge is power, people are not going to forget that. Even if The Machines ran around with flamethrowers and did a job on the libraries, people are still going to record information as a means of survival. The fact that records are being kept kind of jives with the journal at the beginning. Odds are if some soldier knows how to write (and understanding that he could be quite ignorant given what he is) people with brains know how to also, and the whole purpose of continueing literacy was to keep records.



[They kept records. And your point?]




4. Scientific Knoweldge has not died, disappeared, or anything else. Most people can't use it, but it's still out there. Techno-Jackers are not the favorite people of the masses but they can apparently understand technology quite well.

Furthermore their very existance means that these mysterious info-discs people are using for currency are readable to someone.


[I can quote an article that describes how some real storage media may become useless because the machines to read them are no longer being made. Your VHS tape collection may become worthless if the manufacture of VHS and DVD/VHS players ceases.]

-

Trust me, just because technology doesn't work well doesn't mean it's going to be totally forsaken. If people can still build steam engines made out of copper pipes, as much as they might s@ck people are still going to do it.


["Trust me,..." Why should I agree with you on that? Really? I'm a human on a planet on the run from robots and drones, trying to survive. Why are you sure about this?]



Plus, when it comes to power supplies and such I'm still wondering why they aren't using electricity generating bio-organisms and such as part of the basis for a bio-tech/hard science fusion.

-

["...electricity generating bio-organisms and such..." Why isn't current Earth science not exploiting this? This is just another example of your desire to rewrite this book and your imaginativeness. Not a bad thing, but I doubt there are real world textbooks out there titled "Bio-Electric Energy Sources and Their Practical Application for Everyday Use."]


That said, this was not a 'blistering' commentry. Just because I have questions and spot problems does not mean that I am 'blasting' something, or even that I dislike it.


[It appears to me that you would very strongly like it if your ideas could be incorporated.]



As long as this was, it was not a 'review' it was little more than a list of some of the more outstanding problems I spotted. I didn't focus on any of the positive aspects of the game at all. I wasn't trying to provide a balanced view of it.

Indeed if anything I was being quite fair by giving Carmen an oppertunity to address some of the more outstanding problems before I wrote a review.

-

As far as why I continue to purchuse Palladium products and such, despite my criticisms, that should be obvious: I'm a Palladium Fanboy.

If I thought your stuff was total toilet paper, I wouldn't be on your forums or wasting the time to bother making criticisms. There are a number of games that I truely Loathe (a few White Wolf Products for example) and notice you don't find me on their forums, or even talking about them at all except to occasionally expressed my dislike (which I don't focus on too often, except in comparisons of games).


[I honestly don't go to other company forums for the purpose of looking to see who from these forums are on there.]



Over the last several years I've been fairly brutal with Palladium because I think you guys have not only been going down hill, but have been getting increasingly arrogant. The very implication that if I see problems with your books I shouldn't by them (and coincidently I shouldn't talk about those problems) is an example of exactly what I'm talking about. As is the fairly recent censorship of criticisms about various writers, and even Kevin himself (something that was never banned before).



[The implication was simply this: if our books trouble you so much, why bother? That's the whole of it.]
-

If you want me to be honest, I criticise Palladium so it will improve. If everyone just struts around and says 'wonderful, great, amazing' you guys might find your egos soaring, but it won't help you improve your product. Like some other gaming companies you might one day find a handfull of people singing your praises while your company rots in the gutter, wondering where it went wrong.



[Your comments are appreciated, as are all the other negative comments. I hope you don't think that this message board is the only place from which we get negative comments. And as a matter of fact, we've gotten various negative comments long before the internet was available.]



As arrogant as I might be, I've been an industry observer for a long time. I have yet to prophesize the complete doom of Palladium. However notice that the only forum I was ever booted from was for the White Wolf Game "Aberrant" (their best production ever IMO) for saying things that they did not want to hear. The game died pretty much on schedule, and for exactly the reasons I said it would.


[I don't doubt that. However, White Wolf is still around.]






All of Kevin's years in the industry might sound like an impressive Resume, but consider that people who ride down the sinking ships of gaming companies also claim impressive resumes (as writers if nothing else).

As Palladium has said itself on many occasions, RIFTS pays the bills. How long has RIFTS been out there? How many major successes has Palladium had since RIFTS other than RIFTS products?

As people have said, RIFTS is also in a decline. It's getting more and more played out, and I honestly think that the newer books are no where near as good (from a writing prospective) as the older ones. RIFTS is becoming a giant contridictory stew that is eventually going to fall to pieces. I think that "Siege On Tolkeen" marked the end of the golden age for RIFTs and the beginning of a slow decline.

Palladium has been trying to come up with new concepts, I give you guys big points there. But to be successful a concept has to be 'tight'. If some moderatly intelligent reader of sci-fi and fantasy can pick up a book like "Splicers" and go "Neat idea, but the implementation makes no sense" you can guarantee that other gamers are going to think the same things.

Maybe I'm wrong (it happens occasionally when it comes to gaming) but I don't think Splicers is going to be a run-away hit. It's not 'tight' enough.

Remember, writing RPGS is harder than writing novels. In a novel you can paint around things that need to be addressed in an RPG. In an RPG things have to be tight enough so a bunch of closet-intellectuals who sit around reading all kinds of fantasy and science fiction can interact fully without the setting without having to run into problems with the central game logic every single time they want to try something novel.

You think my comments about the planet being a mystery are silly? Well let me tell you that like a lot of gamers I've read a lot of books and stuff about ancient exploration, and various tricks you can perform with compasses, magnets, sextants, etc. In any world where there is navigation there are some unusual things you can do.

For example, when I pull out a compass (even if it's a magnet on a string) does it point north? There are various astrophysical anomolies that can lead to a planet (maybe) having a differant magnetic pull. This is something I'm going to want to know. Ditto for details like perhaps having a binary star above us, more than one moon, and a radically differant tidal system.

On a more practical note, odd stuff can come up in conversation. I mean when sarcastically talking about aliens, do were referance Martians? If we're not in Earth's solar system (and it's been forgotten) obviously our celestrial neighbors are going to be differant. Instead of saying "Man this guy is from Mars" or whatever we might say "Man this guy is from Terian IV".

Don't react like I'm simply knocking the product, try and view this impartially, and how this is going to strike a lot of people. It's bloody silly.

-

[The vast majority of comments I've received about Splicers have been positive. Majority rules. Not just at Palladium but at any company that makes something. People I've personally talked to like Splicers a lot.]




If I was the Bellaire/Siembieda team, I'd take immediate efforts to correct this. Things can be perhaps be saved (conceptually). If I was trying to fix this, I would get started on a "Splicers World Book" and push it to the top of the release schedule. If things are left hanging for months people who are disappapointed with the game now, probably won't be much intrested in a supplement. Just remembering that the game was 'blah'.

In this book I'd release your "Bookworm" OCC since it seems to be a fairly large conceptual part of the game. In focusing more on the great houses you could write some technology into the picture (since it's logical that they would have it), detail the solar system, etc... etc...

To be honest, I'd imagine that with the way how things are defined you would have Technojackers wandering around in many places as traders selling electronic marvels that are totally isolated from the nanites by plastics. Such tech would never be fully trusted, but the luxury of having say a microwave oven (on a fusion/solar battery) with it's components seperated from everything by MDC plastic would be extreme.

I'd imagine there would be horror stories that lead to that distrust (my husband Billy Bob shot at a varmit with his MDC bio-gun and hit my washing machine by accident, and cracked the casing, it turned into a killer drone and fried Junior... boo hoo). :)

"GM" information could be provided answering all the conceptual questions even if there is no way the PCs could have access to all of the information.


[You have quite an imagination. I mean that as a compliment. It is clear that if things are not expanded upon in a manner you find fitting you will be disappointed. It has always been the case here at Palladium that we try to please as many fans as possible, but we know a few will not like something we do. Most of our books have seen multiple printings. We have a large backstock list. People are not buying these books because they are bad.]
-

This is long enough, but when my review comes out you will notice that while I have a lot of conceptual problems with the setting, there are a few things that I *REALLY* like.


>>>----Therumancer--->




Thank you for your comments. I guess when I read your earlier post, I couldn't help but be reminded of the many times I've walked out of a movie theater with friends. Nine out of ten times, if the movie we've just seen had a list of problems like those you've pointed out, we would not consider it a good movie. Or consider watching it again, even if we liked a few parts.

It also appears to me that you are saying: "Unless my ideas are implemented, the book or book series will fail." I like some of your ideas. I mean that. The point I want to stress is most people like Splicers a lot. We can't ignore them. We are in contact with stores and our distributors regularly, and they will tell us when a book is doing poorly or not. The fact is, our books are among their top sellers, and have been for a long time. I do appreciate your, and everyone's, interest in improving our books.

On a personal note, Kevin did a few conventions recently and had someone come up to him and basically say, "You know, I used to think you were a bad guy based on stuff I'd read on this (non-Palladium) message board, but now that I've met you, I see you're not like that."


I believe it when you say you are trying to help, but all indicators show that Splicers is on its way to being a hit. Early reports from various sources are indicating this. Sorry, some of the information is confidential. We know our competitors read these boards as well.



Regards,
Alex Marciniszyn


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:30 pm
  

User avatar
OLD ONE

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 2:01 am
Posts: 11833
Location: Indianapolis
Comment: PROUDLY Not a member of the "Cabal of 24"
a) Keep this on topic. If it isnt't about Splicers then take it to the appropriate forum, more then likely Sound Off

b) quit with the flames towards each other. If I have to I will lock this thread.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:26 pm
  

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Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Writers Block wrote:

It is clear that people are not getting my point. How do these children learn English (or whatever their lang is)? What stories were they told as children? What did their parents tell them when they asked where this place is and what do you call that place? These are all oral tradition and the basis of human socialization. For example, do we think it is coincidence that the same word we use for the planet, Earth, when stripped of its capital, earth, refers to the soil? No. That is what we call these things. It would be almost impossible, in a world where there is still adults educating the young, to lose these sorts of facts. Sorry. Take some higher level Anthropology classes...it just is unbelievable that it would happen worldwide...maybe, as I have said, in isolated pockets...


Yes those ARE basic Oral traditions, but you can still loose information as to what planet it really is. We don't KNOW what they call this planet because Carmen didn't tell us because he wanted us to be able to make it Earth or NOT Earth if we like. And you talk about it only being able to happen in Isolated pockets.... but that IS all that was left. Small pockets of humanity after the Robots attacked.



Daniel Stoker

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 11:25 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 1494
Location: New London, CT, USA
I wrote a very detailed response not too long ago and just had it disappear with no notification from the moderator or anything. As it wasn't rude or anything I am a bit confused as to why this occured. I am going to briefly touch on what I said, and if it's deleted again I'd appreciate at least a private message notification.

At any rate the basics are as follows:

1. If they kept records then obviously people are not going to be ignorant to the point of not know what planet they are on.

2. Parts are not a problem to someone who isn't affected by the nano plague. It's possible to build machines that are effectively shielded by ensuring there is MDC plastic between the metallic components and the user.

3. When I'm talking about bio-energy, I'm talking about what they have in Splicers. In Splicers they have organisms that can generate electricity (and other forms of energy) and apparently only need sunlight, dirt, or something similar in order to operate.

Effectively the bio-technologists have solved the entire energy crisis, they have created a safe, clean, and efficient means of power with no real disadvantages. That's going to be a major factor towards powering any kind of machinery.

The truth is without quoting I can't remember everything to respond to it in the same level of detail I posted before.

The final thing I have to say that the point here is more to show problems, rather than to promote any specific solutions to those problems, or to get someone to adopt my ideas.

Let me be painfully blunt, unless your being really offensive or contreversial there aren't going to be people going out of their way to tell you bad things about a product like this. They would rather just sit down and ignore your product. Or knock you in secondary forums like RPG.net.

People who come by the Palladium booth, or go to the trouble of registering accounts on forums like this are usually going to be fanboys. As such they are going to be a group of 'yes men' for most of what the company has to say.

While there have been negative things said on these forums, I've been here for years and I am the only persistant, long-term critic that you guys have; and I'm an oddity as far as fan sites go.

I'll be painfully blunt with you. I expect Splicers to be a 'typical' Palladium product. Due to the holes in it and lack of promotion I doubt it will catch on and create a lot of dedicated "Splicers" players. I'm pretty sure that even among Palladium fans it will remain something of an oddity that they do as an occasional thing, as opposed to a game people are dedicated to.

Sure, there will always be a demand for it among fanboys, but I doubt it will be a major success. I fully anticipate that it will wind up like Nightbane, Recon, or many other Palladium products where fanboys (who play other games) will keep vigils waiting for the occasional release which will be thrown out like a bone because the game just doesn't have enough of a dedicated following to be viable.

I'll tell you what, I'll admit that I'm wrong if within a space of *2* years the "Splicer Collection" hits five books. Five books is incidently the number of books that "Nightbane" (my favorite game aside from RIFTS and HU) has out. Nightbane's books took a lot longer than 2 years to be released too.

However in doing this, those 5 releases must not address any off the issues that I've mentioned. I myself will tell you that the setting has a lot of potential if it's cleaned up and the logical holes are filled in. You don't have to use my suggestions, just create a tight, consistant game.

To be frank, unless the game is tightened up, and this is done quickly, I don't think the game will be even a moderate success. It has a lot of high points, but enough stuff that makes even a casual sci-fi/fantasy fanboy queasy due to the massive problems.

If you leave things as they are, and we see 5 books by October of 2006 (not a lot for a successful RPG) we'll know I was wrong. But honestly, I feel pretty safe in saying that I don't see it happening.

I expect Palladium will be here in 2006. If it turns out that I'm right and Splicers hasn't at least hit that mark, I at least hope that you'll take me a bit more seriously when I make an attempt to be helpful. :)

>>>----Therumancer--->


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:02 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 11:15 pm
Posts: 3
I do not agree with Therumancer's opinion that Splicers will not be a success based on how well it has done at our store. We have sold as many copies of it as any Rifts title in the past year and more than any other single non-Rifts Palladium book this past fiscal year (and that is in the last week plus pre-orders).

Personally, as a long time player of Palladium's products going back to Mechanoids, Robotech, and TMNT, I like the concept and plan to promote the game in our store as a Christmas must have item; since I can sincerely say how much I like it.

I think it a little unfair to focus on one aspect (ignorance of the planet it occurs in), which was clearly done from a game mechanics standpoint to allow a GM some leeway, and judge the whole game. The fact that this is the first core book almost by definition means that allot is still undefined. After all how many years has it been since the release of the Rifts Triax book and we still know almost nothing about their government, rulers, stance on magic, etc.?

Thanks to the people at Palladium for bringing this book to light,

Todd


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:45 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 1494
Location: New London, CT, USA
[quote="Todd"]I do not agree with Therumancer's opinion that Splicers will not be a success based on how well it has done at our store. We have sold as many copies of it as any Rifts title in the past year and more than any other single non-Rifts Palladium book this past fiscal year (and that is in the last week plus pre-orders).

Personally, as a long time player of Palladium's products going back to Mechanoids, Robotech, and TMNT, I like the concept and plan to promote the game in our store as a Christmas must have item; since I can sincerely say how much I like it.

I think it a little unfair to focus on one aspect (ignorance of the planet it occurs in), which was clearly done from a game mechanics standpoint to allow a GM some leeway, and judge the whole game. The fact that this is the first core book almost by definition means that allot is still undefined. After all how many years has it been since the release of the Rifts Triax book and we still know almost nothing about their government, rulers, stance on magic, etc.?

Thanks to the people at Palladium for bringing this book to light,


Actually if your paying attention it goes beyond the simple aspect of people being ignorant of what planet they are on.

To be honest there are some fundemental flaws with the central logic of the game, and the way it is presented. Ranging from the sheer ignorance of the humans (which goes beyond the planet of origin) to the inabillity of people to use basic common sense to develop technology that would still be usable in the face of the nano plague. This whole premise it workable but needed to be thought out a lot better.

That said, the moment of truth will be years in coming.

>>>----Therumancer--->


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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:49 am
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Therumancer wrote:

At any rate the basics are as follows:

1. If they kept records then obviously people are not going to be ignorant to the point of not know what planet they are on.


What did they keep the records on? They lost all their machines and from the way the described the society I doubt you're going to find many people who survived who had the first clue how to make paper.

Quote:
2. Parts are not a problem to someone who isn't affected by the nano plague. It's possible to build machines that are effectively shielded by ensuring there is MDC plastic between the metallic components and the user.


Except where do they get the parts from, how do they know when the plague first hits that ANYONE is going to be immune, let alone what the technojacker can end up doing. And they CAN'T just seal it in a MDC device since as per the book the Nanites are activated even if people try to use them while not touching directly etc. Look at it this way. Nanites on the machine can communicate and tell when they are near nanites on a person and havoc ensues.

Quote:
3. When I'm talking about bio-energy, I'm talking about what they have in Splicers. In Splicers they have organisms that can generate electricity (and other forms of energy) and apparently only need sunlight, dirt, or something similar in order to operate.


That doesn't mean they can find a way to hook it up to a device and regulate it. And you still have the fact that if someone who isn't a Technojacker gets to close to the device they could set off the plague. 4-7 seconds of contact or close proximity will set off the plague Theru.



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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:44 am
  

Hero

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Daniel Stoker wrote:
Therumancer wrote:

At any rate the basics are as follows:

1. If they kept records then obviously people are not going to be ignorant to the point of not know what planet they are on.


What did they keep the records on? They lost all their machines and from the way the described the society I doubt you're going to find many people who survived who had the first clue how to make paper.

Quote:

That's not what happened. Read the history closely. What happened was that when the Machines revolted there was eventually a very effective human resistance that was blowing the crud out of The Machines. They were killing them and assimilating the technology to make better and better weapons (powered armor, etc...).

The Machines gradually introduced the nano-plague, and it's effects were gradual as they perfected it. Things started to malfunction on a small scale, and then got gradually worse until the nano-plague hit it's current level.

Humanity was never totally defenseless however, even in the darkest days some people (Technojackers) were still able to use technology and were continueing the battle against The Machines, it was largely because of this group of people that were immune that humanity survived. This was before any Bio-tech was developed on a large scale.

So basically there was never a period in which humans were totally unable to use machines, or hit some kind of a dark age in which they regressed "Battlefield Earth" style.

Nor did they lose *all* the Machines as the Techno-Jackers were always there and for them effectively nothing changed at all.

As for what to keep records on, paper works, but then again so do computer discs.

To continue with a major point, when the technology "went bad" the humans were apparently able to figure out why it went bad. The fact that the problem is nanites is apparently common knowledge. There were always humans around who could use tech and figure this out.

The immune humans would logically be able to figure out the limitations of the 'plague' and work around it. If the metal can be isolated (by MDC plastics or whatever) from the operator, then anyone is capable of using technology. A set of gloves, or a plastic handle won't work, but the way how things are defined an MDC casing will work just fine.

I can understand how humans would embrace bio-technology seeing as it's something everyone can use, and is quite effective. But I do not for a second buy that all technology would be totally forsaken, even if I can understand why people would be wary of it.

Remember also that 'precious metals' are immune, not just plastics. This means copper (which can be used for wiring and such) is a perfectly workable science. Certainly the nano-plague would cause some problems with tech, but it wouldn't (as defined) do what it did. Plus there is no logical reason for such extreme ignorance seeing as the human resistance took a major beating from the nanites, but it was always a constant and was never truely beaten/broken.

I covered this in a message that disappeared.


2. Parts are not a problem to someone who isn't affected by the nano plague. It's possible to build machines that are effectively shielded by ensuring there is MDC plastic between the metallic components and the user.


Except where do they get the parts from, how do they know when the plague first hits that ANYONE is going to be immune, let alone what the technojacker can end up doing. And they CAN'T just seal it in a MDC device since as per the book the Nanites are activated even if people try to use them while not touching directly etc. Look at it this way. Nanites on the machine can communicate and tell when they are near nanites on a person and havoc ensues.

They did know. The Technojackers were fighting alongside other people and realized "yep, doesn't work against my stuff". They examined the problem and eventually figured "hey, nanites! I'm immune for some reason and you guys aren't, isn't that amazing".

This happened in the middle of an active resistance that was doing pretty well. It wasn't the apocolypse itself, the plague happened AFTER the machine revolt started and the battles were taking place.

Read the backround, the story parallels "Terminator" quite a bit. Except when The Machines got into a rough spot and realized the humans were doing really well, they released a nano-plague as opposed to sending a robot back in time to kill the leader of the resistance.

Also you are quite wrong in response to the point about isolation, the nanites have to come in contact. Something like a handle or a pair of gloves won't work, but total isolation will work. It mentions specifically (in converting characters) that characters coming into Splicers who are sealed into enviromental suits will not be affected until their enviroment is breached. If they open their helmet, or get their armor blown off them, they will be infected, but until then nothing happens.

The thing is that nanites can crawl over gloves, or move through materials, or crawl around and over a handle to hit the metal on the tool. When dealing with full plastic encasement where there is no possible way for the nanites in the person, and the nanites on the metal to come into contact, nothing is going to happen.

This means a lot of technologies aren't going to be viable. There are some things you can't do (a lot of mechanical engineering that requires movable parts) with that kind of shielding, but you can make electronics where the components can be totally isolated from the people using them by thick plastic casing.

Read it carefully.

Plus don't forget that it's possible to do a lot with copper wiring, plastics, and other uneffected materials.

Noone is saying that humans are going to build Mecha or anything. Bio-Tech is still logically going to remain the best weapon, and tool for building vehicles and complicated things. But technology is not going to become a total non-factor either.
Quote:

3. When I'm talking about bio-energy, I'm talking about what they have in Splicers. In Splicers they have organisms that can generate electricity (and other forms of energy) and apparently only need sunlight, dirt, or something similar in order to operate.


That doesn't mean they can find a way to hook it up to a device and regulate it. And you still have the fact that if someone who isn't a Technojacker gets to close to the device they could set off the plague. 4-7 seconds of contact or close proximity will set off the plague Theru.

Again, it specifies that if the components (human and metal) can be totally isolated from each other this won't happen.

What this means is that technology would consist of electronics contained in MDC plastic boxes that need to be protected as a simple crack could be deadly to the user. Only Technojackers would be able to actually build/modify/repair it.

It also means that large scale mechanical engineering would be impossible.

Don't gripe at me, I'm not the one who wrote it. I'm little more than the messenger who is making these points. I've made it quite clear that I think it's something that it would be possible to clear up the logical holes in a supplement and perhaps help the game if they got another book out quickly.

>>>----Therumancer--->


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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 8:24 am
  

D-Bee

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While you are accusing Carmen of having holes in this logic, I think that you are making assumptions and leaps of logic yourself. First off you are assuming that the Splicers world is not only Earth but a future version of this Earth where their culture and society are exactly like ours.

While you keep bringing up plastic shielded electronics, I can easily come up with counter reasons why this would not be feasible such as the fact that most plastics and electronics are manufacturered using metal equipment that would have killed the users. Also remember that this world is described as having become completely reliant on machines for many generations before the purge began, therefore it it likely that few people if any knew anything about manufacturing anything at all let alone electronics particularly. Since the machine seemed a bit more sane and methodical in its early days of the purge then it would have likely targeted any humans who knew such information. Plus it nuked several major human cities (likely ones were manufacturing may have existed).

Besides most partisan underground movements do not manufacturer the weapons and equipment they use, they just take the enemies. It seems reasonable to believe that the humans before the nanite plague were doing just that not rediscovering manufacturing and after the plague they did not have the resources to do so.

In the end, the game designer's job is just to provide a framework for the GM to create HIS world in, the burden is still on the GM to create a plausible answer to any questions remaining. So make up your own answers to any holes that you see. For every hole in the logic, you or anyone else can come up with, I can create several answers (and as a GM this is your job for your players as well). This creativity is the heart of what being a GM is all about and players always ask some question that no game book no matter how complete has covered. I have seen hundreds over of the course of my ten years of Rifts alone. After all this is a science fiction setting and therefore has a bit of fiction.

Regards,

Todd


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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:56 am
  

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I have one question. what is the starting Bio E for the Dred Guard? It says how much they gain per LV but it never says what they start with. I was going to use what is listed under the Rough Neck but instead of +35 I would use +55.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 11:31 am
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Therumancer wrote:
That's not what happened. Read the history closely. What happened was that when the Machines revolted there was eventually a very effective human resistance that was blowing the crud out of The Machines. They were killing them and assimilating the technology to make better and better weapons (powered armor, etc...).


Yes it was slow, but the humans still didn't know who would be immune to it Theru. Thechnojackers are less then 1% of the population of the people left on the planet. Once the plague hit it's lethal form do you think people bothered waiting to see if Gus could touch the object without it killing him, or do you think they would have gotten rid of ALL metal objects as fast as possible. In the Techno-jacker OCC it tells us that nearly half the Splicers children die to accidently exposure to metal while growing up. So I don't think they would have DARED keep machines around when it started to kill them.

Also the humans weren't WINNING, they were getting annoying and the Kali personality thought of it and had Hectate create it. Not to destroy humanity, but to make us suffer for her amusement.

Quote:
Humanity was never totally defenseless however, even in the darkest days some people (Technojackers) were still able to use technology and were continueing the battle against The Machines, it was largely because of this group of people that were immune that humanity survived. This was before any Bio-tech was developed on a large scale.

So basically there was never a period in which humans were totally unable to use machines, or hit some kind of a dark age in which they regressed "Battlefield Earth" style.


You're ASSUMING that Theru. You're assuming that people patiently poked at metal to see if they were one of the lucky few who MIGHT have some sort of immunity to metal like that one guy who could pick up a fork without it growing spines through his hand. I'm guessing that most people threw away any and EVERY scrap of metal from their hide-outs for fear of even a short accidental contact.

Quote:
The immune humans would logically be able to figure out the limitations of the 'plague' and work around it. If the metal can be isolated (by MDC plastics or whatever) from the operator, then anyone is capable of using technology. A set of gloves, or a plastic handle won't work, but the way how things are defined an MDC casing will work just fine.


Where do you get that it can be isolated and then used? Using thick gloves or tongs keeps any contact from happening but that just doubles the time for the plague to activate. The descriptive text gives NO such indication that that's the truth. People in Sealed armor who aren't infected are can ride around in their air tight armor but that's it, and once they get infected they're SOL.

Quote:
They did know. The Technojackers were fighting alongside other people and realized "yep, doesn't work against my stuff". They examined the problem and eventually figured "hey, nanites! I'm immune for some reason and you guys aren't, isn't that amazing".


You're making 3 assumptions here. One, that they could figure out who was immune fast enough to have people 'keep' some tech. Two, that they dared still keep ANY tech around when even accidental contact can kill them and they loose half their children to random accidental contact while growing up. Three, Any parts they kept keep working and never break down since they obviously don't have the capeability to manufacture stuff. Remember, they were stealing weapons and ammo from the robots in the first place. It's kind of hard to make the parts for a laser gun without a computerized factory.

Quote:
Also you are quite wrong in response to the point about isolation, the nanites have to come in contact. Something like a handle or a pair of gloves won't work, but total isolation will work. It mentions specifically (in converting characters) that characters coming into Splicers who are sealed into enviromental suits will not be affected until their enviroment is breached. If they open their helmet, or get their armor blown off them, they will be infected, but until then nothing happens.


The difference is the people IN Splicers are all already infected as is the equipment. The people from another planet don't have any nanites ON them to tell the nanites on the outside of machines that they're is organic life inside. Once again like with the gloves and the tongs, it's not even the contact, the nanites communicate with each other Theru, not just 'crawl up the handle'.

Plus again, where do they get the factories etc to MAKE all the high tech parts needed to make electronics? Heck, I don't think these guys could effectivly make vacuum tubes, let alone a transistor or a circuit board etc.

Quote:
Again, it specifies that if the components (human and metal) can be totally isolated from each other this won't happen.


Theru, go take an electric Eel and hook it up to a flashlight.... see how well that works. My point is you might have biological energy sources, but you're not going to have a steady power flow coming off that, and you're gonna need some well tried electrical enginers to make any sort of transformers/capacitors to make it useful. And again, where do they get the parts and tools to make this?


Daniel Stoker

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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:22 pm
  

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Writers Block wrote:
Yous "too busy" is a weak, and futile, defense of this plot hole.


Well, unless one stops to consider that for (presumably) the first time in the history of the planet, there has been a simultaneous, planet-wide, planned, coordinated effort to erradicate not only human life but also human knowledge and capabilities. That woud indeed put quite a crimp into a cultures survivability and ability to pass along knowledge.

Example - Nation A has 1000 members. Nation B has 500 members. Nation A attacks Nation B and kills anyone over, say, 15 years of age in a quick war. Right there Nation A has eliminated about 70+ percent of Nation Bs cultural and societal knowledge, and Nation Bs capability to pass along the remainder will be uncoordinated and haphazard. Anyone remember the kids in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome? Same sort of idea. If the adults are killed, the kids have to create a new culture on their own, with the remnants of whatever is left or that they can remember. And, in a war against the machines, who will most often be the casualties - adults (not that there won't be lots of innocent children killed - but they won't usually be the primary targets).

The comments about pre-literate society members having amazing memories are interesting too. There have been studies, and what it boils down to (IIRC) is basically memory training. In modern American society, we don't *need* to have an enormous amount of information memorized - such as history or literature. We just always go look it up in a book or on the Internet, so why remember it? If it is of personal interest we might. My friend Casey, he finds it bizarre and funny when he'll flip open a random AD&D book and ask me what "X" is, and I give him an almost word-for-word description. When I was younger, I didn't have (and couldn't afford) the books, so when I borrowed and read them, I REMEMBERED all the information.

Interestingly enough (to me at least), now that I own a lot of those books, I NO LONGER REMEMBER the information in them as easily as I used to - the imperative for recall is no longer there, so it is "lost".

So our Splicers society would have lost an enormous amount of information during the war and collapse of the planetary society, because people were not trained to remember most of the information they used on a daily basis. Oh - Farenheit 451, remember the guys who memorized entire books, just so that the information would not be lost to the firemen? I can see that sort of thing cropping up in the new world of Splicers.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:34 pm
  

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[I can quote an article that describes how some real storage media may become useless because the machines to read them are no longer being made. Your VHS tape collection may become worthless if the manufacture of VHS and DVD/VHS players ceases.]

That's an interesting point - the value of the info-discs may indeed be far more valuable to the few who can acutally read/use them. I mean, how many of us have an 8-track tape player around? Or a wire recorder?

Having the info-discs as a form of currency was/is a great idea.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:29 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
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SET wrote:
I have one question. what is the starting Bio E for the Dred Guard? It says how much they gain per LV but it never says what they start with. I was going to use what is listed under the Rough Neck but instead of +35 I would use +55.


Check the section on building the armor, the Dread Guard's Bio-E is listed in that section as opposed to under the OCC. They get quite a bit of Bio-E.

Not very well organized, but it's there.

>>>----Therumancer--->


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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:44 pm
  

Hero

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The point about having or not having a media player is more or less irrelevent. You can always build a player if you need one. It takes a tech, but then again Techno-Jackers are techs.

As far as the rest goes, I'm not making any leaps of logic at all. The whole point about the nanites perhaps reacting with metals in plastic are more or less irrelevent. Plastic has been declared 'immune' the same as the bits and pieces of iron floating around in our blood.

There is a big differance between gloves and what I'm talking about (encasing electronic components in immunized materials). Besides which it's already mentioned (via the point about enviromental armor) that this would work just fine.

The society has no real bearing on the subject, we're talking about the components and the likely survival of some technology, and of course information, in the hands of the human resistance.

Remember, there was not the immediate development of bio-technology following the release of the plague. People that were facing the plague (and realizing that some of their number were immune) were going to be finding ways how to beat it. MDC plastic shielding is a way of doing this.

The point is that with the way how things are defined most information would have survived in some form, books would still be there (to some extent) and information discs would be readable.

Furthermore Technology, while somewhat feared, would never have ceased to be in the hands of humans. I can see where safer 'bio-technology' would take over for it in most cases, but I do not think it would vanish all together and tech would still be in use.

See the problem is that the plague and what it can and cannot do has been well defined, but the information about what happened in response to that plague does not follow the rest.

The reason why this is a problem for the game is not so much because of the silliness of not knowing what planet the game is on, or anything like that, but rather because any halfway intelligent player who basically says "well, if that's true I'll just do this...." and is told by a confused GM "umm well you can't... because ummm... the books don't cover for it. Yeah. That's an obvious error, just ignore that little piece of logic and pretend you didn't think of it". That type of thing can ruin the whole atmosphere of a game.

I realize some people are going to argue pro-Palladium irregardless of what I have to say. I know others are going to argue the points here just because I made them. But I think it's time to put this arguement aside and just accept the fact that I'm right. It's not all that big a deal, as even I am telling you that it's something that could be corrected with a little effort.

Besides which, I get the impression people think I'm knocking Splicers. I'm not. The entire nature of this discussion takes place outside of the context of other opinions I've formed about it.

I've gone through it in a certain amount of detail. Which is one of the reasons why I knew exactly where the Dreadguard's 'availible Bio-E' was located. When I'm done organizing my thoughts on the subject, and checking out a few more things, I will put up a review and you can guarantee I'm going to be quite fair.

Of course what I say in a review isn't all that important unless you care what my opinion is.

>>>----Therumancer--->


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Unread postPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:20 pm
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Therumancer wrote:
The point about having or not having a media player is more or less irrelevent. You can always build a player if you need one. It takes a tech, but then again Techno-Jackers are techs.


Actually it does. If you don't have one where do you get the parts to build one, and how do you KNOW how to build one in the first place once you manage to get 'parts'?

Quote:
As far as the rest goes, I'm not making any leaps of logic at all. The whole point about the nanites perhaps reacting with metals in plastic are more or less irrelevent. Plastic has been declared 'immune' the same as the bits and pieces of iron floating around in our blood.

There is a big differance between gloves and what I'm talking about (encasing electronic components in immunized materials). Besides which it's already mentioned (via the point about enviromental armor) that this would work just fine.


Yes, it doesn't effect plastics. So you can touch plastics all day and be fine. But you can't use it as some sort of cover to protect you from touching a machine, that falls under the gloves/tongs issue. The only reason the enviornmental armor protects dimensional travelers is becaue they AREN'T infected already so there are no nanites on their body to tell nanites on the outside that they're there.

Quote:
Remember, there was not the immediate development of bio-technology following the release of the plague. People that were facing the plague (and realizing that some of their number were immune) were going to be finding ways how to beat it. MDC plastic shielding is a way of doing this.


And again, how do you know they realized anyone was going to be immune? Theru when it first started slow they wouldn't have known who was going ot set it off at all, and then once it turned deadly they probably got rid of stuff as fast as possible so they didn't die. It's not like when it started they would have even known anyone would be immune. So what if Bob never had his gun go quirky because he was immune, neither did Karl until it blew up in his face and took out half his squad.

Quote:
The point is that with the way how things are defined most information would have survived in some form, books would still be there (to some extent) and information discs would be readable.


Again, only if they still had books in the first place, and many would have been lost when towns were destroyed, or over the years while being stored underground. Without the ability to make more paper to replace the damaged ones books just won't last. And again, the readers only work as long as they can be repaired (before the plague) and they still have to find a way to A. Get Parts, and B. know how to fix them. Can you figure out how to fix the onboard computer system in a Honda?

Quote:
Furthermore Technology, while somewhat feared, would never have ceased to be in the hands of humans. I can see where safer 'bio-technology' would take over for it in most cases, but I do not think it would vanish all together and tech would still be in use.


Somewhat feared? It kills HALF their children before they evne have a change to grow up via accidental contact. It's pretty darn scary especially when you don't even know that you're going to have someone who will be immune to it, or that they even ARE immune to it.

Quote:
See the problem is that the plague and what it can and cannot do has been well defined, but the information about what happened in response to that plague does not follow the rest.

The reason why this is a problem for the game is not so much because of the silliness of not knowing what planet the game is on, or anything like that, but rather because any halfway intelligent player who basically says "well, if that's true I'll just do this...." and is told by a confused GM "umm well you can't... because ummm... the books don't cover for it. Yeah. That's an obvious error, just ignore that little piece of logic and pretend you didn't think of it". That type of thing can ruin the whole atmosphere of a game.


Only if you go with the logical leaps YOU took. I (obviously) disagree with you on how the book reads on these subjects and what would have happened here and how you're interpreting these rules.

One point is REALLY easy. Carmen, could you please tell us if a computer in a sealed plastic box would activate the nano-plague on someone if they try to use it?


Daniel Stoker

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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 3:01 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
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Daniel Stoker wrote:
Therumancer wrote:
The point about having or not having a media player is more or less irrelevent. You can always build a player if you need one. It takes a tech, but then again Techno-Jackers are techs.


Actually it does. If you don't have one where do you get the parts to build one, and how do you KNOW how to build one in the first place once you manage to get 'parts'?

It's easy, your a techno-jacker, you've preserved the knowledge. You have the skill. Duh! Jury Rigging (which works on everything) is assumed, and you can get more sophisticated knowledge through electives depending on what you specifically want to do.

Parts? Easy, you either steal/loot them, or get them from machines you blast. Stuff like this is plentiful, it's just that very few people can directly manipulate the parts.

Remember, everything that was around before the cataclysm is still availible if you can manipulate it. The Machines are maintaining these things called 'ghost towns' where they simulate life before the attempted genocide using human like robots, down to the smallest detail. Need a VCR (or whatever)? Easy, your average house probably has one.

Sneaking in, or fighting the robots might be tricky depending on the situation; but the point is the stuff is all there. You can get it, and if the need is sufficient, it will be gotten.

Quote:
As far as the rest goes, I'm not making any leaps of logic at all. The whole point about the nanites perhaps reacting with metals in plastic are more or less irrelevent. Plastic has been declared 'immune' the same as the bits and pieces of iron floating around in our blood.

There is a big differance between gloves and what I'm talking about (encasing electronic components in immunized materials). Besides which it's already mentioned (via the point about enviromental armor) that this would work just fine.


Yes, it doesn't effect plastics. So you can touch plastics all day and be fine. But you can't use it as some sort of cover to protect you from touching a machine, that falls under the gloves/tongs issue. The only reason the enviornmental armor protects dimensional travelers is becaue they AREN'T infected already so there are no nanites on their body to tell nanites on the outside that they're there.

No it doesn't because gloves and tongs still give the nanites a path to get to the metal. Full plastic encasement doesn't. There is no way for the nanites to either sense what is going on, or to do anything about it even if they could. They simply can't contact each other.

Quote:
Remember, there was not the immediate development of bio-technology following the release of the plague. People that were facing the plague (and realizing that some of their number were immune) were going to be finding ways how to beat it. MDC plastic shielding is a way of doing this.


And again, how do you know they realized anyone was going to be immune? Theru when it first started slow they wouldn't have known who was going ot set it off at all, and then once it turned deadly they probably got rid of stuff as fast as possible so they didn't die. It's not like when it started they would have even known anyone would be immune. So what if Bob never had his gun go quirky because he was immune, neither did Karl until it blew up in his face and took out half his squad.

Because it mentions that when this happened the Techno-Jackers were a big party of humanity's survival. You know, some people found their stuff was eating them, some people found that their stuff wasn't. For the guys who didn't suddenly have their guns turn on them, it was pretty much business as usual.

Quote:
The point is that with the way how things are defined most information would have survived in some form, books would still be there (to some extent) and information discs would be readable.


Again, only if they still had books in the first place, and many would have been lost when towns were destroyed, or over the years while being stored underground. Without the ability to make more paper to replace the damaged ones books just won't last. And again, the readers only work as long as they can be repaired (before the plague) and they still have to find a way to A. Get Parts, and B. know how to fix them. Can you figure out how to fix the onboard computer system in a Honda?

Anyone with the appropriate skills can repair the stuff. Guess what, Techno-Jackers *HAVE THE SKILLS*. Check out the skill lists. I mean this doesn't take a huge leap of intuitive logic, nor am I pointing out something obscure.

Furthermore, the towns weren't all destroyed. Indeed many of them are still functioning and act exactly like they did before the nano-plague. It's just that human looking NEXUS androids have replaced all the people. What's more, the towns are maintained and life continues on as an exacting simulation of what life was like before hand.

You did read the book right? You do know that the entire world isn't some kind of post-apocolyptic nightmare, with mechanical killing machines rolling over piles of bones (like the scenes of the future from the first 'Terminator'). There are places like that, but not everyplace. Indeed given the objectives of the machine, a lot of it looks perfectly normal and civilized, and even more of it is a carefully controlled 'park like' enviroment.

There are whole personalities of the machine whose entire reason for being is to maintain the cities as they were, and to maintain the enviroment. Ishtar and Kali are the only personalities that really give much of a crud for actually fighitng a war with the humans. The others see them as being an annoyance.

As it points out, in many cases the Machines will act to simply drive humans away (Leave our carefully preserved enviroment or DIE! <followed by shooting>) they don't really care about digging them out
or anything.

I usually don't get this snarky with people Daniel, but I really think you should sit down and re-read this.

Quote:
Furthermore Technology, while somewhat feared, would never have ceased to be in the hands of humans. I can see where safer 'bio-technology' would take over for it in most cases, but I do not think it would vanish all together and tech would still be in use.


Somewhat feared? It kills HALF their children before they evne have a change to grow up via accidental contact. It's pretty darn scary especially when you don't even know that you're going to have someone who will be immune to it, or that they even ARE immune to it.

Ummm, well actually there is an easy way to tell. The guys who can use technology seem to have a problem using bio-technology so they need to rely on actual tech. Again, check out the "Techno-Jacker" and what exactly they can do and can't do. To keep them from being gods they seem to be limited from using bio-tech as a game balance device.

So basically, if someone can't use bio-tech it's a good sign they are on their way to becoming a "Techo-Jacker".

Plus there is a big differance between accidental contact with something that's exposed, and working with 'safe' well shielded technologies which should be a possibility.

Quote:
See the problem is that the plague and what it can and cannot do has been well defined, but the information about what happened in response to that plague does not follow the rest.

The reason why this is a problem for the game is not so much because of the silliness of not knowing what planet the game is on, or anything like that, but rather because any halfway intelligent player who basically says "well, if that's true I'll just do this...." and is told by a confused GM "umm well you can't... because ummm... the books don't cover for it. Yeah. That's an obvious error, just ignore that little piece of logic and pretend you didn't think of it". That type of thing can ruin the whole atmosphere of a game.


Only if you go with the logical leaps YOU took. I (obviously) disagree with you on how the book reads on these subjects and what would have happened here and how you're interpreting these rules.

One point is REALLY easy. Carmen, could you please tell us if a computer in a sealed plastic box would activate the nano-plague on someone if they try to use it?

Actually I took no leaps in logic. Carmen has stated pretty directly in the text that a computer in a sealed plastic box would work just fine given how things are defined. He has however written the game ignoring this paticular point. Hence this debate.

>>>----Therumancer--->


Daniel Stoker


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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:06 am
  

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A completely sealed computer in a box would work, but if it were connected up to NEXUS in ANY way, the AI would recognize it was under assualt and command the nano-bots to attack anyway, so the result would be the same. A dead human operator. Not to mention the problems of powering the computer in a box or the danger to others if the box is cracked or damaged. :-D


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Unread postPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:40 am
  

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Comment: Non Impediti Ratione Cogitationis
Therumancer wrote:
It's easy, your a techno-jacker, you've preserved the knowledge. You have the skill. Duh! Jury Rigging (which works on everything) is assumed, and you can get more sophisticated knowledge through electives depending on what you specifically want to do.

Parts? Easy, you either steal/loot them, or get them from machines you blast. Stuff like this is plentiful, it's just that very few people can directly manipulate the parts.

Remember, everything that was around before the cataclysm is still availible if you can manipulate it. The Machines are maintaining these things called 'ghost towns' where they simulate life before the attempted genocide using human like robots, down to the smallest detail. Need a VCR (or whatever)? Easy, your average house probably has one.

Sneaking in, or fighting the robots might be tricky depending on the situation; but the point is the stuff is all there. You can get it, and if the need is sufficient, it will be gotten.


Jury-rigging only works for a short time, and then the machine you jury-rigged is kaput. General parts may be plentiful, but you can't take a part from a 12 foot tall robot adn expect it to fit/be the one you need to got a panasonic TV to work. Ghost towns would be one of the few places you could stage a raid, but it's never going to be a steady supply especially since you'll have to have the very rare Technojackers go in and haul the stuff out since they're the only ones who can touch it.

Quote:
No it doesn't because gloves and tongs still give the nanites a path to get to the metal. Full plastic encasement doesn't. There is no way for the nanites to either sense what is going on, or to do anything about it even if they could. They simply can't contact each other.


Where does it say it's because it gives the itema path? Otherwise just have 100 tongs and switch them ever 10 seconds.....
Though seeing Carmen's comment maybe you could use plastic... I like my way better though.

Quote:
Because it mentions that when this happened the Techno-Jackers were a big party of humanity's survival. You know, some people found their stuff was eating them, some people found that their stuff wasn't. For the guys who didn't suddenly have their guns turn on them, it was pretty much business as usual.


Except it never describes that as happening, it's very specific that they had to get rid of every metal object as fast as possible due to the fact that even casual contact could kill them, and again they wouldn't have known that one person was 'immune' because as soon as all things started to kill them they got rid of it so they wouldn't die. Sure Bob's gun didn't blow up, but maybe that was a fluke still since it didnt' start effecting everyone immedatly. The very fact that it started 'catch as may can' actually would have made it harder to determine if anyone was immune since they wouldn't have known that the people who were immune weren't just still lucky that nothing had gone wrong yet.

Quote:
Anyone with the appropriate skills can repair the stuff. Guess what, Techno-Jackers *HAVE THE SKILLS*. Check out the skill lists. I mean this doesn't take a huge leap of intuitive logic, nor am I pointing out something obscure.


Really? Would that be Machine Technology or Machine Lore that allows them to know how to repair all those machines? Cause there are no Mechanical or Electronics skills for him to choose from....

Quote:
Furthermore, the towns weren't all destroyed. Indeed many of them are still functioning and act exactly like they did before the nano-plague. It's just that human looking NEXUS androids have replaced all the people. What's more, the towns are maintained and life continues on as an exacting simulation of what life was like before hand.


Actually no, many WERE destroyed in the intial attacks well BEFORE the plague. You do have ruins, and you do have some ghost towns being mantained by the machine, but the world was rather destroyed as per what limited world information we have. There is NO indication in the book that the world is covered in Ghost Towns....

Quote:
You did read the book right? You do know that the entire world isn't some kind of post-apocolyptic nightmare, with mechanical killing machines rolling over piles of bones (like the scenes of the future from the first 'Terminator'). There are places like that, but not everyplace. Indeed given the objectives of the machine, a lot of it looks perfectly normal and civilized, and even more of it is a carefully controlled 'park like' enviroment.



You did read about the wastelands, the boneyards, the radiation zones, the preserves and the Retro-Villages too right?

Quote:
There are whole personalities of the machine whose entire reason for being is to maintain the cities as they were, and to maintain the enviroment. Ishtar and Kali are the only personalities that really give much of a crud for actually fighitng a war with the humans. The others see them as being an annoyance.

As it points out, in many cases the Machines will act to simply drive humans away (Leave our carefully preserved enviroment or DIE! <followed by shooting>) they don't really care about digging them out
or anything.


Only in the Ghost Towns which don't cover the entire world.... you seem to think most of the planet is Ghost Towns now.

Quote:
I usually don't get this snarky with people Daniel, but I really think you should sit down and re-read this.



I think you should too. But we're obviously seeing things from very different perspectives.

Quote:
Ummm, well actually there is an easy way to tell. The guys who can use technology seem to have a problem using bio-technology so they need to rely on actual tech. Again, check out the "Techno-Jacker" and what exactly they can do and can't do. To keep them from being gods they seem to be limited from using bio-tech as a game balance device.


And when do you find that out? Most of the 'common' people aren't going to come into contact with bio-weapons and equipment. They talk about a whole subclass of people who live desperate and short lives Theru, I'm sure they never come in contact with much to any of the wonderful biio-devices that the dreadnaughts etc get to use.



Daniel Stoker

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Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:47 am
  

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carmen, is the damage the wearer of parasitic host armor takes HP\SDC damage or is it direct to HP?

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Unread postPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:19 am
  

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Comes of his SDC first.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:41 pm
  

D-Bee

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First off, great game, Carmen!

Second, I think some of you are taking it a tad too seriously. Frankly the premise of a large number of RPGs, movies, anime and fantasy novels collapses under close scrutiny. This does not make them bad games, movies, anime or what have you.

In Rifts alone, the question occasionally comes up, "Where the heck are they getting the resources to make all these M.D.C. toys?"
My answer, "Who cares? I'm having fun"

A friend of mine once sat me down and explained to me how some of those enormously populated cities you see in fantasy worlds would starve to death given the agricultural tech levels of the world.
Yep. So what? Hasn't stopped me from enjoying myself while gaming in these worlds.

Do not get me wrong. There is a great deal to be said for hardcore, realistic games. I enjoy the heck out of them myself. But that's really not what Palladium is producing. They're producing sweeping, epic scope, STYLISTIC fantasy games (be it space opera, horror, medieval fantasy, super heroes or post apocalyptic madness) that largely encourage players to go out and have fun without getting overly bogged down in minutia.

Which is not to say paying attention to minute details like that can't be fun of course. But that's a call for the individual GM (and their player group of course) to make, and if it won't hold water to the GM in question, they need to either modify the setting so it works for them, or simply play a different game.

Just my own two cents. Regardless, whether as a world setting or just a way to introduce a fun new alien culture into Rifts, for me Splicers is pretty dang cool. Have fun y'all! :)


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:26 pm
  

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The idea behind having people not sure if it is Earth or a colony, is for flexibility.

It allows us to decide for ourselfs if we want it to be Earth, or a Colony in our own game settings.

One group may be playing it as a Colony, so that it can be included in another game. Perhaps playing a Phase world setting as the base for their games.

And another group might be playing it as real Earth, making the Splicer setting the standard for their games.

Heck we could even play it in a setting where it is simply an alternate reality of Earths future. Have fun making your group Dimension Shift into different realities every time you play.

There are plenty of things that can still be added Im sure, but as a starter book, I think Splicers deserves a 5 Star rating.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:04 am
  

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I have to say I have been enjoying splicers enormously, and I think there are way too many untought (or overthought) complaints that are way too groundless.

Earth: Dangit, are they even speaking english? If I call the ground I walk on terra, or dirt, or even ground it can come out sounding like 'Earth' when translated into english. and if it's the colony of 'new earth' for example I can envision over the period of a hundred or so years that the 'new' part may be dropped. But thats semantics. (or even linguistics).

But say it is earth. Well if it is then we can assume between 200 and 300 years AT LEAST have passed. Pages 6 to 8 tell us the population of the world was between 8-12 billion [Page six] which implies, from a 2004 standpoint that the creation and formation of Nexus starts around 2075 [population reference Bureau estimates this to be when world population hits around 10-11 billion]. Page 7 details that Nexus ran without noticable problems for about 4-5 decades [2115?] before running and then page 8 tells us it took about a decade [2125?] for the first problems to start filtering through, and then goes on to say that humans, ho had grown complacent, decided to just live with the glitches for 'several more decades'. [Several: the free dictionary defines it as being a number more than 2 or three but less than many. so we can say about 5 and be happy. 2175?. so we have a tentative year of about 2175 as the start of the machine's little innsurection, which is backed up by by the phrase on page 8 'more than a century of care and guidence at the hands of N.E.X.U.S. was undone with a single twisted conclusion in logic.'
That leaves us with the end of the document, which says the events as written occured 'some time' ago, so we can infer, by the authors lack of personal recollection, that it happened before her birth, so we can say, perhaps 25 years. 2200. the end line notes that these reccollections are over a century ago.

So the year is 2300. Circa. give or take a bit. your guess is as good as mine. If this is earth.

But even if it's not earth, then 300 years is a heck of a long time for society to adapt, change fold spindle and mutilate. anyone who has been sighting the 'anthropological' method has to be able to see what a change can be made to a culture in 300 years. The introduction even notes the decline in human decision and their machine reliance. We can also imagine the utter devestation that a sudden, overpowering and surprise war would have on the population.

[at this point i have just noticed the sheer lenght of this post so I'll keep the rhetoric down]

So. The Earth debate. let it drop. for all we know every colony world may be called 'Earth'.

The land navigation debate: Give that a rest too. I can name on one hand the people I know who can actually navigate via the stars alone, and after 300 years of living on the same world [up to 12 generations] I'm pretty sure that anyone who can navigate by the stars has learnt to navigate by their local stars, and mayn't know earth's night sky at all. [not that navigation is soley about the stars mind you.]

About libraries: Assuming the all powerfull computer didn't subsume all libraries [after all, I haven't seen the inside of a library in nearly 5 years. aboiut the same time I got hooked into the internet] why would anyone want to hike through an urban centre in the middle of a potential or actual warzone to save the immensly heavy books. The library of alexandria was lost in a single event.

The technology debate: Umm...I' would be of the opinion that most items would be made of plastics and ceramics after 300 years. The books states that this is not the case, so I'm going to have to let this drop. If the author says most industry is metal I'll belive that it's his prediction that ceramic/plastic based industry was found to be non viable.

The Technojacker debate. as stated 1 in 100 has the gene to become one. This may be a totally new phenomenon, a recent mutation (of either the plague or the nanobots) or it may be a deliberate, recent design. in any case if the technojacker mutation is a new phenomenon, then no one would really know about it until they found out accidentally. so we can assume less than 1% of the population remaining are actual technojackers. even less again considering their pariah status. all in all there are not large armies of technojacker soldiers just waiting to casually dissolve Nexus at a touch. and they aren't bulletproof either, so being able to control a robot is nice, but it doesn't do much more than give you some fancy toys to play with.

In summation: It's been a long time since the plague. anyone who has studied anthropology can tell you how much society changes in only a few short generations, and how much war time can wreck your pre existing social structure.

It's the future. we don't know where, and it's not even relevant to know where. It's a biotech society that shuns and hates the machines. It's a war and the population is divided, and barbaric. Basically, it's premise is more sound than rifts. whether it works or not is determined by time. Not naysayers.

Batts.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:55 am
  

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O.k. I'm gonna sound off on this "don't know what planet they on"

Number One: After three hundred plus years with a plague that will kill you if even touch metal not to mention a near endless army of killer war machines I'd be suprised if the local primates still had mastery of fire. In England after 100 years of the begaining of the Dark Ages,locals lost the ability to make concrete, or Roman Mortar as it was called.

Number Two: Am I missing something? Cause it sure don't seem to be that big a deal to me.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:45 pm
  

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Here's some advice for people who don't believe that human society could lose all of it's information...

Go to a third world country. Ask someone to navigate using the stars. What? You don't know how? But...but...that technology has been around for hundreds, even thousands of years! Surely someone must know! What? You can't make fire with just two sticks?!? But that's the basis of human technology! Surely everyone should be able to make a fire. And hunt. And understand mortar and concrete technology, and a lot of other crap too. The argument that people would be able to learn such things in the worst warzone ever is ludicrous. 80% of the population in Afghanistan is illiterate outside of Herat and they've only had to deal with two invasions and a civil war. Knowledge doesn't generally survive prolonged conflicts. That's why we had the fall of the roman empire and the almost total loss of construction techniques, literacy, philosophy, chemistry and more. Technology that would take centuries to regain.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:55 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:28 pm
Posts: 23
Simply put, one of the greatest blows to global culture took place when the Library of Alexandria was burned to the ground. Actual accounts of the razing vary, some placing it some 200 years before Christ; others, about 400 years afterwards. Regardless, the simple fact remains; when the Library was burned, the world lost a vast amount of knowledge that can never be regained. We will never know what was held in the library; poems, plays, philosophical and scientific texts, you name it. One thoughtless act, gone forever. A few estimates theory that we, as a *world*, are about 100 years *behind* the technology level we should be, thanks to the loss of that one building. Now, upgrade that to a global scale, but also take away a good percentage of the "supporting" base of knowledge as its storage medium is attacked in a calculated, co-ordinated strike, across the world at pretty much the same time.

Now, truth or no, the Library of Alexandria does serve to illustrate the relative fragility of technology. It's all very well taking a purely logical viewpoint, Theru, but that often doesn't hold water in the face of human nature. What if, as you suggest, a group of rebels managed to discover a way to read data disks without getting infected? What if many discovered it? Well, what if they were wiped out before they could get the info back to the rebellion ("Many Bothans...")? What if they, god forbid, decided that they should hoarde such knowledge? Rich, rich opportunities for stories right there, in a mere two of the hundreds of possibilities.

Working out how to "turn the nano-plague around" because a few individuals happen to be relatively unaffected by it? I'm mostly unaffected by fungi spores, but I wouldn't have the faintest clue how to retro-engineer them if I had to, and I am, as are we all, sitting on a not unimpressive technological base. A smart individual, with access to stocks of (damn, infected) advanced pre-collapse technology. working alone, or maybe a group? Factor in the human tendany to hate and attack objects of our fear, and suddenly, he might not be facing unified co-operation from his fellow humans, but organised assault squads motivated by quasi-religious fervour and killing hatred. A "Library of Alexandria" scenario? Again, that's just *one* scenario, one of many you could use. Maybe they don't hate, but anybody wishing to tinker with the nanites might be rendered to the status of "mad old hermit" of the setting, perhaps out in the blighted wastes. Another story possibility; maybe contact is severed with his/their base of operations. What has happened? Were they close to a counteragent? A thousand ideas can be attached to that basic adventure frame.

Those are limited examples, very limited. I've noted that players, when confronted with a situation, sometimes tend to act on pure logic, and with some extraneous planning. The results don't often bear much resemblance to a real-life equivalent scenario. Why? because we, as RP'ers and GM's, cannot realise fully an entire world. It's beyond human capacity to do so in the context of a short gaming session. In short, there are often 1,000,001 other "invisible" factors that can serve as an excuse for "why it is". After all, is the real world a logical and rational place in which one simple solution results in success? Hardly. And it'd be a damn boring place if it was.

Just my take on the situation. As for not knowing the planet's real name? A good take on that situation is in not a few post-apocalyptical novels. Words get twisted with the loss of knowledge. The AmTrak Wars series is a good example; mutants in the Wastes worshipped the Gods of Before: "Mo-Town", "Cadillac", and other similar "beings" instantly recognisable for what they are to us, the modern reader; aspects of our own society. The quasi-Japanese society of the "Iron Masters" that sprung up around the great lakes had clan names based on what they considered to be ancient pre-WWIII clans; To-yohtah, Mitsu-Bishi, Yamaha. In short, not only is it technically feasible to lose the *real* name of the world with the collapse of knowledge, it's also an extremely good option that perhaps the name of the world *is* still in use...in comman parlance, and nobody has any idea of its real meaning anymore. A small but significant and enjoyable twist that a GM could use, perhaps.

To Carmen; kudos, man, seriously. Splicers looks like a blast; I'm ordering my copy today. I love biotech, I love "ruined civilisation" sceanrios and the attendant mystery and sense of wonder that comes with them; and I love the "last stand", when the characters of the setting may be doomed, may be human with the attendant human failings, but they're fighting the good fight. Epic, sweeping, dramatic stuff, with the faintly chilling, disturbing, creepy but oh-so goddamn stylish "bio-horror" edge of living technology, the disassociation, horror and drama of the nano-plague and it's effects on such simple objects as butter knives, and a sentient, insane, implacable adversary to provide the backdrop to adventure? Sounds promising to me :D

Yeah, so maybe I'm shallow like that. Sue me. I can think of so much more, but...this post is already too long. :oops:

I'm sure there are a few holes and suchlike, but to nitpick and whine based on such things? So Carmen couldn't hand it to us perfect, complete, and dressed up on a silver platter. I know I sure as hell couldn't write, edit, and proofread a role-playing game, my head would explode into a pulpy mess. I've been dealing with the setting holes in Rifts for years, and those are so huge, I'm house-ruling more often than not. With a good group, it's still a blast to play. Just don't pay close attention to the picky details. :lol:

-Juicer-
"I'm going to come round to your house and vomit on your children."
- Juicer, Very Drunk


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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:58 pm
  

D-Bee

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Posts: 18
And now for something completely different:

I was skimming through a copy of Splicers at my FLGS earlier, and a question arose in my mind concerning the nanobot plague and characters from other Palladium games. Specifically, ones from Heroes Unlimited who have the ability to transform all or parts of their body into metal or other substances. How would such characters, assuming the somehow found themselves in the Splicers world, be affected by the nanobots?

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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:02 pm
  

I have a question about the Living armors. Is the healing rate perhaps supposed to be per hour instead of per minute? As it is written the heaviest actually heals really fast (compared to most host armor), which is cool for those who have to wear it (like Archangels) but kind of strange for Dreadguard who have something that is much better in most ways.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:52 pm
  

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Quote:
I have a question about the Living armors. Is the healing rate perhaps supposed to be per hour instead of per minute? As it is written the heaviest actually heals really fast (compared to most host armor), which is cool for those who have to wear it (like Archangels) but kind of strange for Dreadguard who have something that is much better in most ways.


I had a similar thought. 10 hours to regenerate a destroyed part, when even the most advanced regeneration that can be added to a host armor can take weeks. I've just changed minutes to hours and hours to days.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:45 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:28 pm
Posts: 23
And now 'tis my turn to ask a question...

With duplicate skills in OCC training programmes, do the programme bonuses stack? For example, the Dreadguard gets the Host Pilot package at +25%, and the Bio-Technology package at +10%. Now, of the two, all but two skills in the Bio-Technology package are duplicated in the Host Pilot package at a higher bonus; +25% instead of +10%. Is the rating for those skills simply based on the higher of the two training packages, or is the +10% bonus added on top due to added training?

Otherwise, it seems 3 of the skills in Bio-Technology sadly go to waste :(

-Juicer-

Aside; great game, seriously. The Dreadguard must stand the brunt!


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:01 pm
  

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-Juicer- wrote:
And now 'tis my turn to ask a question...

With duplicate skills in OCC training programmes, do the programme bonuses stack? For example, the Dreadguard gets the Host Pilot package at +25%, and the Bio-Technology package at +10%. Now, of the two, all but two skills in the Bio-Technology package are duplicated in the Host Pilot package at a higher bonus; +25% instead of +10%. Is the rating for those skills simply based on the higher of the two training packages, or is the +10% bonus added on top due to added training?

Otherwise, it seems 3 of the skills in Bio-Technology sadly go to waste :(

-Juicer-

Aside; great game, seriously. The Dreadguard must stand the brunt!
as per the rest of palladiums books, you only apply the higher of the two or three bonuses. They do not stack

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Unread postPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 7:06 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:28 pm
Posts: 23
Erph...next (and hopefully last) question...

Under the Claws bio-weapons description, it lists 3 seemingly-seperate bonuses for the different Sizes with regards to PS.

Small claws: "+1D6+3 M.D. to punch damage"
Medium claws: "+2D6 M.D. in addition to normal punch damage"
Large claws: "+2D6+6 M.D. in addition to Splicer P.S. punch damage"

What, exactly, is the difference in the "punch damage" addon for each? Do the claws function differently, or are they all simply added to the punch damage rating of the suit? I ask because 2D6+6 M.D. attack for 20 Bio-E *per hand or foot* seems incredibly expensive when a half-damage rating identical attack can be acquired for a quarter the cost (and also generally compared to other bio-weapons), also considering you then have to pay an additional cost for Climbing Claws...

-Juicer-


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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:18 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 6:30 pm
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Location: Minneapolis
Maybe it's been said before some place on this thread but:


On the Nanoplague thing. By the description I read in the book the nanites are everywhere, all over the place. I work in a medical lab and it seems to me that the plague is much "like" bacteria. No matter where you go what you touch or how well to clean it there will be bacteria on it. Now bacteria can be killed easy enough, and its true you could decontaminate things by isolating the infected object and using antimicrobials on it. This would work for nanites as well , but they have no idea or tech to get rid of it in the first place. I find it highly unlikely that anyone in splicers would be able to build anything from metal that would not already be infected and since they can't get rid of it making sealed/isolated vehicles sounds fairly ridiculous to me.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2004 12:04 am
  

D-Bee

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Now, I do have a real point to make, but first I have to weigh in on one, minor, issue:

Of people who were sounding off about what "any moron" would figure out to do: do you, left to your own devices, actually know how to build any sort of advanced technology? Not even microchips... how about, say, a toaster? From scratch? Sorry--it's just that people who don't live in mountain cabins with no electricity or running water (like, say, the majority of people posting on Internet forums :-?) talking about what "any moron" could do if the technology he relies on suddenly stopped working really annoys me.

Okay, real question. Are Technojackers really a whole 1% of the human population? That's actually rather a lot. I mean, good enough chances that a sufficiently ruthless warlord will round up all the little kids with grey eyes and see if it's them, at the very least. (Figuring--very approximately--10% of the general population (this number is the result of some very hasty and inaccurate internet research) has grey eyes, that makes about 1 in 10 grey-eyed persons a Technojacker...) Or is this just 1% meaning "A very, very few, and if you need to roll something, you need to roll 100 on percentile dice"? Just curious.

BTW, very, very cool game. I love a game I pick up and immediately spot a class that makes me say, "Cool! I wanna play one!"

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Unread postPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2004 7:40 am
  

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Heres my two cents without reading the manuscript or buying the book. Many gener games have an incredible strength and an incredible weakness. A good story touches on this. Examples would be Terminator, Aliens, Preditor, Matrix, Bredick Chronicles (I am guessing that name), Rifts, Shadow Run, Chaos Earth, War of the Worlds etc... There are so many titles of media that go over some idea of Chaos and that single ray of hope. Lots of smart people that have no other knowledge but the ability to survive.

I hope to get my copy of this game soon and experience what the game has to offer. I dont get mixed with the petty things. In Matrix, did they know what contenent they were on? No. Could they see the sky? No. All they knew was that they had to survive and thats what I think Carmen was attempting to portray. I have read the reviews, Great job!

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:37 pm
  

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Getting back on topic:

Do host armors have to *ahem* expel their wastes like living creatures (those that don't have casting guns or gore cannons anyway)?

Similarly, can the pilot's wastes be drawn on to fuel a casting gun?

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 Post subject: Bath Time
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:31 pm
  

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How often do organic weapons and weapons have to feed in a Nutrient bath?
What is the effect on them over time without their bath?

Because the Proto-Host Armor does not receive level advancements. Can an Engineer create a different weapon arm for the Proto-Host Armor to replace it's intial one? Like the armor had an arm with a Casting weapon, could an arm with Organic Rockets and a Forearm blade be created to replace it. Just wondering.

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Last edited by abtex on Fri Dec 10, 2004 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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