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SamtheDagger · **Posted:** Sat Nov 19, 2011 9:56 pm

I want to have a series of discussions on actions in Rifts (and other Palladium games which use the same rules), how they are resolved, and what they are intended to accomplish. I will begin with the back flip.

RUE p. 344 wrote:

Back Flip: The back flip involves throwing oneself backwards with the arms and shoulders, flipping the legs completely up, over, and back down on the ground into a standing position. The result is that one quickly moves backwards by a full body length. Doing a back flip counts as one melee attack/action. and can be used as a dodge or for entertainment.

If used in place of a dodge, the character must roll higher than his opponent's strike roll using only the natural die roll (do not include any dodge bonuses). Failure to beat the strike means taking full damage without a chance to Roll with Punch. Success means avoiding the attack like a dodge.

Now, first of all, other than the fact that it looks and sounds cool (i.e. the entertainment clause), what is the point of performing a Back Flip? Consider the following: a) the defender loses any bonuses to dodge and b) the defender loses the chance to Roll with Punch. With these two points in mind, it seems that outside of entertainment or coolness factor, there is only one reason to perform a Back Flip as a dodge. That reason is that it one quickly moves backwards by a full body length. So what is the advantage of quickly moving backward by a full body length in game terms? The only use I can imagine is for situations in which one wishes to carefully withdraw to another position. But a full body length is not a great distance. For most characters, we are talking about a meter at most. Furthermore, this ability does not state that it brings the character out of melee range with the attacker. It seems that Back Flip: Escape was meant for this. To me this suggests that the Back Flip is something that is intended to be used only in unusual situations.

Perhaps I am not imaginative enough. What other situations might the Back Flip be used for?

Killer Cyborg · **Posted:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:47 pm

As far as I can tell, it's only good for showing off.

SamtheDagger · **Posted:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:51 pm

If it is only good for showing off, why is it even there? And why is it such a hard ability to get? HTH: Martial Arts does not grant it until level 8 and HTH: Assassin does not grant it until level 9. Someone with Acrobatics or Gymnastics can get it, but these skills are not readily available to most characters. I would like to think that under the right circumstances it has some beneficial effect other than showing off. And specifically I mean a combat effect, after all it is located in a section entitled Combat Terms & Moves. It seems a waste of space to include it there if it is simply meant to be an impressive acrobatic talent.

Damian Magecraft · **Posted:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:11 pm

SamtheDagger wrote:

If it is only good for showing off, why is it even there? And why is it such a hard ability to get? HTH: Martial Arts does not grant it until level 8 and HTH: Assassin does not grant it until level 9. Someone with Acrobatics or Gymnastics can get it, but these skills are not readily available to most characters. I would like to think that under the right circumstances it has some beneficial effect other than showing off. And specifically I mean a combat effect, after all it is located in a section entitled Combat Terms & Moves. It seems a waste of space to include it there if it is simply meant to be an impressive acrobatic talent.

Leaps, jumps, flips etc... are best examined in the N&S books...
N&S defined the various ranges of combat (grapple, melee, etc...)
Rules were put in place stating moving from one range to the next costs one action...
Plus several of the Martial Arts listed in the book did grant bonuses to back filp/leap dodges.

Killer Cyborg · **Posted:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:42 pm

SamtheDagger wrote:

If it is only good for showing off, why is it even there?

For the lulz?

If it's good for something more, why isn't it good for something more?

Back in N&S, it served more of a purpose, but in Rifts... not so much.
I really don't know why they included it, except for habit.

Prysus · **Posted:** Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:07 pm

Greetings and Salutations. Well, before Rifts Japan I don't believe there was a "Back Flip: Escape" in Rifts. So, if anything, adding that ability is what helped to nullify the use of Back Flip. ((Note: If I'm wrong on this, please feel free to correct me with a book reference.))

Since the original post mentions all Palladium game lines (in addition to Rifts), I think I'll post this from a Palladium Fantasy book. In PF Book 3: Adventures on the High Seas (AotHS), we have the "Tumbling" skill.

Quote:

Back-Flip: +4 to dodge quickly flipping out of harm’s way or over one’s opponent. Always ends in a tumble and crouched stance. Like all dodges, it takes the place of one attack that melee. However, because the tumbler has flipped a fairly great distance, the attacker loses one attack, as he must turn around or lunge forward to renew his attack.

I put the part I wanted to reference in bold (also note I did not include the entire skill or the % included, just the section I wanted to reference and didn't remove anything relevent). Now, you could argue that this only applies to the Tumbling skill, since it is only mentioned in that skill. At the same time, I don't see anything that really distinguishes that Back Flip to make it so drastically different. As an individual, I've always used this ruling as the basis for Back Flip in general.

As stated above, in Ninjas & Superspies (N&S) the Back Flip had more of a purpose. After this, if I'm accurate, the Tumbling skill found in AotHS gives a good example of how Back Flip works outside of N&S. So far the ability still makes sense. Now we get to Rifts Japan, a book that tries to blend the flavor of N&S into the setting of Rifts. This is the book (that I believe) introduces Back Flip: Escape and, unfortunately, the Megaversal system doesn't always mesh well with itself. This is where I believe the problem arose. As an individual, I just choose to ignore Back Flip: Escape as if it never existed (of course, I primarily play PF, so that's very easy for me to do).

Anyways, that's just my take on the situation. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

SamtheDagger · **Posted:** Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:40 pm

Okay, so from the Palladium Fantasy rules for the back flip we have a means of both dodging and forcing the attacker to sacrifice one attack to move back into melee. This seems to be the purpose of the Back Flip: Escape ability though. So perhaps Back Flip is simply a needless redundancy. That is the conclusion I am coming to. I should read more of N&S to see how it is implemented there. I do not have the Rifts Japan book, but I have skimmed it on the bookstore shelves before. It seemed to me that the Japan book is intended more or less to stand alone as Japan was sucked out of the world for hundreds of years before being plopped back into Rifts Earth. I would not really want to include very much of that as part of a more traditional Rifts game in North America or Europe. But it might be worth mining for ideas on giving back flip a purpose, which, as it seems now, there is none.

SamtheDagger · **Posted:** Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:13 pm

Having read up on the back flip in N&S I have come to the conclusion that the standard back flip, as described in Rifts, is merely a re-purposed defensive back flip from N&S. Of course, the problem with this is that while the N&S combat training skills grant bonuses to back flips (allowing the possibility that a back flip bonus might be better than a dodge bonus), the core rules for Rifts contain no bonuses to back flips (at least not as far as I can tell). So it seems that in Rifts, unless one is utilizing characters ported from N&S or using the Japan book, the back flip is merely a stunt.

Killer Cyborg · **Posted:** Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:19 pm

SamtheDagger wrote:

Having read up on the back flip in N&S I have come to the conclusion that the standard back flip, as described in Rifts, is merely a re-purposed defensive back flip from N&S. Of course, the problem with this is that while the N&S combat training skills grant bonuses to back flips (allowing the possibility that a back flip bonus might be better than a dodge bonus), the core rules for Rifts contain no bonuses to back flips (at least not as far as I can tell). So it seems that in Rifts, unless one is utilizing characters ported from N&S or using the Japan book, the back flip is merely a stunt.

Gee, why didn't I say that?

SamtheDagger · **Posted:** Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:30 pm

Well the whole reason I created this thread is because I wanted to explore other possibilities that I had not thought of. The back flip is one of those abilities that always stood out to me because it did not seem to serve much of a purpose. I wanted to get some insight from other players on what its benefits might be. Knowing about its uses in the Japan book and N&S helps put it in context, so I learned something. But thanks for contributing.

patgib · **Joined:** Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:39 pm **Posts:** 24

Helps get away from radiant attacks (like when your Anarchist Mind Mage casts Pillar of Fire on the opponent you are engaging in H2H). All while looking extremely cool.

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(Rifts) Defining Actions: The Back Flip

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