Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

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Giant2005
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Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

Unread post by Giant2005 »

So someone uses Group Mind Block to try and shut down the enemy Psychic but the enemy Psychic has Mind Block Auto Defense. Ho would you rule it, does the Mind Block Auto Defense protect the Psychic from Group Mind Block?
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Re: Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Hm. That's tricky, and Group Mind Block is a lot more powerful than I thought.

I'd say GMB will not affect physical-type powers... it won't stop Telekinesis or Pyrokinesis, or anything that works entirely within the psychic. But MBAD doesn't seem like it would protect the person from GMB, because the GMB would protect ALL of the people around the psychic... you might be able to enact Empathic Transmission, but you don't have anyone to transmit TO, because they're all behind their own wall.
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Re: Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

Unread post by Giant2005 »

Mark Hall wrote:Hm. That's tricky, and Group Mind Block is a lot more powerful than I thought.

I'd say GMB will not affect physical-type powers... it won't stop Telekinesis or Pyrokinesis, or anything that works entirely within the psychic. But MBAD doesn't seem like it would protect the person from GMB, because the GMB would protect ALL of the people around the psychic... you might be able to enact Empathic Transmission, but you don't have anyone to transmit TO, because they're all behind their own wall.

Either you misunderstood me, or I am misunderstanding you now.
Either way, for the sake of clarity: I am not referring to someone using Group Mind Block on them and their allies to protect themselves from the psychic attacks of their enemy; I an referring to someone using Group Mind Block on that enemy so that enemy can no longer use Psionic abilities. If that enemy possessed Mind Block Auto Defense, would that prevent the Group Mind Block from being used on him?
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Re: Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I think you are not understanding me.

The Group Mind Block will block psychic powers, but I would only block those that are mental and function externally to the psychic. So, if you use Group Mind Block as a defense against a Mind Mage you would block that mind mage using Empathic Transmission, Cause Insanity, Catatonic Strike, and and other powers that function externally. It would not block Ectoplasm, Telekinesis, Pyrokinesis, Healing Touch, or Bio-Regeneration... ones that are not mental in nature.

Mind-Block Auto Defense is irrelevant, IMO... it only protects against probes and attacks, and GMB is neither.
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Re: Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

Unread post by Giant2005 »

Mark Hall wrote:Mind-Block Auto Defense is irrelevant, IMO... it only protects against probes and attacks, and GMB is neither.

An argument could be made for GMB being an attack. It attacks the psychic and takes away their abilities. To the psychic, that probably feels about the same as if someone attacked one of us and took away our ability to walk.

As for the rest of it, if I didn't understand you then, then I still don't understand you now as your second response sounds exactly the same as the first to me. Maybe it would help if you explained why the enemy psychic would only lose the ability to use his mental psionics and not his physical ones.
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Re: Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

Unread post by Axelmania »

The proper way to stop GMB might be to run out of range and then hit them with a Psi-Nulliier blast. Or perhaps the "Block Breaker" power from Between the Shadows.

Though I'm not totally sure what the range is for. Is that just for activating at start (you keep blocked if you walk out of range, people who were out of range but enter into range are not protected) or for continuous protection (you lose the block if you walk out, people who were out of range who enter into range during duration gain protection) ?

This talk of offensive GMBs has me thinking of Yhabbayar Bubblemaker applications now...
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Re: Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Mark Hall wrote:I think you are not understanding me.

The Group Mind Block will block psychic powers, but I would only block those that are mental and function externally to the psychic. So, if you use Group Mind Block as a defense against a Mind Mage you would block that mind mage using Empathic Transmission, Cause Insanity, Catatonic Strike, and and other powers that function externally. It would not block Ectoplasm, Telekinesis, Pyrokinesis, Healing Touch, or Bio-Regeneration... ones that are not mental in nature.

Mind-Block Auto Defense is irrelevant, IMO... it only protects against probes and attacks, and GMB is neither.


to clarify: group mind block explicitly states that while under the group mind block, you cannot *use* powers. not just that you cannot have mental powers used on you, but that everyone in the area become incapable of using any psychic powers at all.

to the OP: i'm afraid i have no real answer for you, mostly because i don't run group mind block the way it's written (for me, it only works on people who allow it to work). being able to prevent all mental psionics from working on a group with almost no way to get past it is plenty strong for an ability, it doesn't need to be a no-save-allowed method of taking away psionic powers from enemies in the radius as well.
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Re: Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

Unread post by The Beast »

Giant2005 wrote:So someone uses Group Mind Block to try and shut down the enemy Psychic but the enemy Psychic has Mind Block Auto Defense. Ho would you rule it, does the Mind Block Auto Defense protect the Psychic from Group Mind Block?


MBAD states is activates once someone tries to probe the psychic's mind. GMB isn't a psychic probe and therefore wouldn't trigger MBAD. But even if someone said it would do that the psychic still wouldn't be able to use psychic powers because he's either being blocked by his own MBAD or the opponent's GMB.
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Re: Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

Unread post by Axelmania »

I think perhaps "cannot use" must mean "start using" rather than "continue using", otherwise wouldn't GMB stop the user of GMB from continuing to use GMB?
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Re: Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

Unread post by Library Ogre »

And, my problem with GMB is that it becomes the uber-power. It shuts down ALL psychic activity in a 240' diameter? No save, just you go from "psionic god" to "knower of very few things"? It is more effacious than anti-magic cloud when you FAIL a save... and this has no save at all and lasts several minutes.
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When I see someone "fisking" these days my first inclination is to think "That person doesn't have much to say, and says it in volume." -John Scalzi
Happiness is a long block list.
If you don't want to be vilified, don't act like a villain.
The Megaverse runs on vibes.
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Re: Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Mark Hall wrote:And, my problem with GMB is that it becomes the uber-power. It shuts down ALL psychic activity in a 240' diameter? No save, just you go from "psionic god" to "knower of very few things"? It is more effacious than anti-magic cloud when you FAIL a save... and this has no save at all and lasts several minutes.


yup.

that's why i said i have no idea how i'd rule for the OP. first i'd have to actually run group mind block as written, and that's way too far off of what i'd consider reasonable for me to really be able to put myself in the right frame of mind to give an answer. i mean, if i allow mind block to work as written (guaranteed total shutdown of all psionics in the area with no save), i very clearly don't have the same sense of balance as i do now.
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Re: Group Mind Block vs Mind Block Auto Defense

Unread post by Axelmania »

Here's a stab at a solution. RUE 178 says "The Group Mind Block works just like the individual Mind Block power." It also says it protects "himself and those around him".

RUE 169 defines Mind Block as having the range "Self". Effectively what GMB does is endow people in the radius with the Mind Block power and turn it on for free, instead of the usual 1 action to use psi default (which I'm sure is mentioned in RUE somewhere, though I can't find the page)

RUE 366 probably mentions somewher that it is possible to prematurely will a psionic power to end before its duration elapses. I can't seem to find it, but I know I must've seen that somewhere...

So that's what you do. The power turns on, and if the user perceives what is happening (as any psychic who would be impeded by it would) they can willingly lower the block.

Erecting a GMB or an MB could not possibly shut down ongoing psi, because then they would cancel itself out. Therefore it only prevents the activation of new psi, and you can get around that by not consenting to the block.

This also prevents tricks like say, being able to wreck a Mind Melter's carefully-crafted Psi-Sword by doing a mind-scan to try and trigger his Auto-Defense. Think of the problems this would also create for the Noro Psychic OCC from page 63 of DB2 Phase World: any psychic attack on their mind would trigger the MBAD they ALL have, and they would immediately lose control of any entities under their control. An unintended mind block simply preventing establishing NEW control over entities until lowered, works better.

When it refers to "evil purposes" this could simply refer to stopping psychics from communicating with non-psychics, because non-psychics would not be able to de-activate the barrier, since they would not be aware a mind block is up like a psychic would. It couldn't impede psychics from communicating with each other though, since they could willingly lower the block as if they erected it themself.

If psychics were unable to lower the Mind Block given to them by Group Mind Block, it would not work "just like" the individual power.
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