How does telepathy work

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eliakon
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How does telepathy work

Unread post by eliakon »

So over in the Bionic Horse thread a discussion on Telepathy came up.

Specifically I was proposing using Telepathy to relay commands to one's horse. This sparked (an off topic for that thread) disucssion on what form telepathic communication is in, and who/what can be involved in said comunication and who/what can understand it.

My stance was that the book seems make it so that short simple phrases can be understood well, and that since the Lemurians use telepathy to comunicate with/talk to their animals and devices that it should work with other animals as well.

Contrawise the existance of the Phase World telepathic languge may indicated that it is not universal... though that may ALSO simply be that telepathic language allows one to ignore the normal limitations of telepathy listed in the power and send more complicated thoughts and messages than 'simple short and clear phrases'

One of the other things that came up was a question of if there is any information on how telepathic information is relayed? Is it in words, or is it in some more nebulous form.

Thoughts?
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Re: How does telepathy work

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Note that Trade two uses a mixture of Telepathy and the spoken word, and that the psionic component is used to bridge difficulties in speaking. and that withotu the psionic component, much of the meaning of the spoken aspect is lost. this suggests to me that the psionic component is both not language dependent itself, since otherwise it would be useless for bridging language gaps.. but at the same time, the psionic component is not sufficient in itself to conduct conversations in.

so i would suspect that the default telepathic ability works more in terms of concepts, feelings/emotions, and mental images rather than words. in trade 2, these are combined with the spoken word to impart context and appropriate emphasis to the spoken words used (so that you might say in conversation, "the ship" and send via Telepathy an amalgam of emotions and images about the light cargo ship tranquility so the other person knows which ship you refer to).

but i'd imagine such "conceptual-packets" are not exactly the best at getting specific textual information across.. would be like watching a video that was a collection of brief seemingly unrelated clips all inter-cut in sequence.. getting across something more complex than "run" or "you are in danger" or "get to the ship" might be tricky to do. to send something more complex, you'd probably need to know the person's language and be able to craft a specific message including that information. so that instead of seeing a flash of images or sounds and other perceptions, they receive basically your voice saying a message.

this would work the otherway too.. with Telepathy you could probably get a pretty good idea of what someone is saying, even across a language barrier. because they will be thinking of it as they speak, and those thoughts will have non-textural/verbal elements. but trying to understand what people are saying in a given memory would be tricky without the language skill, because you'd only get the person's emotions and such real time as they remember.. everyone else in the memory would just be memory of the sounds.
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Re: How does telepathy work

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I tend to view telepathy as communicating in words and pictures, depending on what is being thought of. Without a common language, the words tend to be a bit useless, but the pictures can be a useful form of communication, if the telepath is good at thinking in pictures.

If I think at you "Gehen Sie auf dem Krankenhaus; ich brauche ein Krankenschwester!", you might have no idea what I said, because you don't speak German.* However, if I make a point to visualize you going to a hospital, finding a nurse, and bringing them to me, you will understand it... provided you understand all of the symbols that go into my mental image. If I use some weird picture of a nurse that makes no sense to you, or if you can't interpret the building I send you to as a hospital, you'll get the picture, but you won't necessarily understand the picture.

If I start using telepathy to talk to my dog, some words might help, but far more useful will be pictures... especially if I can convey scent. If I send a series of words at my dog, she'll understand them about as well as she understands any words. If I send her a picture of her getting off my bed and going to her own, well, she'll obey or not, based on her inclination (which is to obey for 30 seconds then come back).

Now, I figure telepaths who practice thinking in pictures can do so and, generally, those of higher intelligence will be able to more clearly convey what they want. But if you try listening to someone who is not used to thinking in pictures, and doesn't think in your language, you'll run into a language barrier. You'll get some pictures, but also lots of words, and some of it will be in a personal idiom that might not make a lot of sense, even if you do speak the language. The more experienced someone is communicating telepathically, the better they will be at creating useful mental images... and at obscuring them, as well.

*I studied it 20 years ago in school and seldom since, so it is also possible I don't really speak German. If you do speak German and I am wrong, assume it is an obscure Austrian dialect, and makes perfect sense in that. If you speak Austrian, just blame it on Bavarians, and you're probably right.
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Re: How does telepathy work

Unread post by dreicunan »

There is a very good argument to be made for the existence of a kind of "mentalese" (look up the "language of thought hypothesis" if you are interested) underneath even a native language that would help explain this. We've all had the sensation of fumbling for the word we use to describe a concept. I'd suggest that telepathy takes place using mentalese.
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Re: How does telepathy work

Unread post by Library Ogre »

dreicunan wrote:There is a very good argument to be made for the existence of a kind of "mentalese" (look up the "language of thought hypothesis" if you are interested) underneath even a native language that would help explain this. We've all had the sensation of fumbling for the word we use to describe a concept. I'd suggest that telepathy takes place using mentalese.


My problem with that is the implications that Telepathy is a universal language, which I think would've been mentioned at some point. If it takes place in mentalese, then a Telepath will be able to understand any thought, from any creature, and project the same to anyone.
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Re: How does telepathy work

Unread post by eliakon »

dreicunan wrote:There is a very good argument to be made for the existence of a kind of "mentalese" (look up the "language of thought hypothesis" if you are interested) underneath even a native language that would help explain this. We've all had the sensation of fumbling for the word we use to describe a concept. I'd suggest that telepathy takes place using mentalese.

It would conflict with the idea of culture though.
It would imply that there is a substrate 'universal' word for things that exists below the language level... thus there would be a hypothetical universal 'mentalizes' word that corresponds to each exact concept...and neatly and narrowly defines it exactly (hospital after all is hopelessly imprecise... I boggle at the idea of a specific word for "900 bed charitable research hospital specializing in non-cancerous tumors in ethnic minority females of childbearing years and their children" which is different than "20 bed privite clinic for the genetic therapy treatment of melinomas of people of European citizenship" which is different than "100 bed facility for people suffering from yellow fever" which is different than...)
after all some cultures think one thing when they say hospital, some think another...
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Re: How does telepathy work

Unread post by dreicunan »

"Mentalese" isn't a language in that sense. It doesn't really have words. "Words" as we conceive them aren't required for thought, though it is tough to wrap you head around what wordless language is like. Look up the case of Ildefonso (A Man Without Words) if you are interested.
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Re: How does telepathy work

Unread post by eliakon »

dreicunan wrote:"Mentalese" isn't a language in that sense. It doesn't really have words. "Words" as we conceive them aren't required for thought, though it is tough to wrap you head around what wordless language is like. Look up the case of Ildefonso (A Man Without Words) if you are interested.

That the thing
Words are just a lable to a specific concept.
If you can express that concept, clearly, to another person you have a word.
It doesnt have to be spoken
"Mentalese" is an interesting philosophical concept... but it doesnt seem to have any underpinnings in the real world, and experimental data conflicts with it.
To be honest I think the SW hypothesis or some variant is far more likely in which langagues are the the basis of understanding. This is because different cultures have different concepts and views and understandings of concepts based on their cultural and linquistic bagage... a process that would be impossible if there was actually a universal Mentalese in common with everyone. In THAT case everyone and every langague should evolove similarly and have the same linguistic elements and forms...which is not the case.
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Re: How does telepathy work

Unread post by dreicunan »

eliakon wrote:
dreicunan wrote:"Mentalese" isn't a language in that sense. It doesn't really have words. "Words" as we conceive them aren't required for thought, though it is tough to wrap you head around what wordless language is like. Look up the case of Ildefonso (A Man Without Words) if you are interested.

That the thing
Words are just a lable to a specific concept.
If you can express that concept, clearly, to another person you have a word.
It doesnt have to be spoken
"Mentalese" is an interesting philosophical concept... but it doesnt seem to have any underpinnings in the real world, and experimental data conflicts with it.
To be honest I think the SW hypothesis or some variant is far more likely in which langagues are the the basis of understanding. This is because different cultures have different concepts and views and understandings of concepts based on their cultural and linquistic bagage... a process that would be impossible if there was actually a universal Mentalese in common with everyone. In THAT case everyone and every langague should evolove similarly and have the same linguistic elements and forms...which is not the case.

Some experimental data conflicts with it. Some supports it. The mere fact that you are capable struggling to remember a word for an object yet still can think of the object supports it! LOT doesn't predict uniformity of expressed language (once you add on the layer of,ither languages, all sorts of other factors come into play), but it does help to explain how home signers can even be a thing.
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Re: How does telepathy work

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

As I said in the Bionic Horse topic that telepathic information is not universal due to the existence of the Telepathic language in Phaseworld. What ever telepathy is detecting/relaying it is not universal.

Some examples in the books (Palladium in general) suggest that it ranges from auditory words to images being perceived. None of which is necessarily universal. You couldn't use Telepathy to get around a language barrier. Sure the information might be perceived, but there is no guarantee that it would make sense.

If the telepathy is in the form of words/audio, then language skill becomes important. You might be able to hear what they are thinking (either send/receive end), but if its in say Japanese and you don't speak Japanese, it will sound like gobbly-gook to you. And even if language is the same, the cultural (slang) aspect might also come into play.

If the telepathy is in the form of images, the same thing can happen since the image can be open to interpretation from different cultures and even on an individual level. This would restrict images to being pretty simple and straightforward (as the power suggests the message has to be in send mode, but we also have to consider the read mode).
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Re: How does telepathy work

Unread post by eliakon »

I would like to add something here
Phase Word page 52[quote=Phase World Page 52"]
Trade Two: This language is favored by telepathic races, because it uses telepathy in addition to the spoken word. With out psychic abilities, much of the meaning of the language is lost. The psionic component allows users to bridge difficulties in speaking, and psychic sensitives pick it up very quickly. Charters with the psi-power telepathy or empathy have a +20% bonus to learn Trade Two. Non-Pyschics have a -15% penalty. 50% plus any IQ bonuses and 5% per level
[/quote]

I will note that this is a LOT different than the previously claimed 'telepathic language'
It in fact does the opposite. It clearly states that telepathy is used to bridge difficulties not that the language is a requirement to bridge difficulties in telepathy.

Now yes, it does add in spoken words, but the idea that telepathy is somehow only intelligible if you have a shared language seems iffy

Further I point to Splynn Dimentional Market page 87 "Even powerful god-like creatures are not all familiar with every language. Those who know magic will probably know the Tongues spell, but magic speech is unnerving to some who hear it and limited in its duration. Psionic communication also shares part of this stigma, even more so for those who do not like others to hear their "thoughts" or read their emotions."

The Rulian Translator is described as working off of telepathy

And of course the Telepathy Power itself makes no mention of language being needed for the communication, just that messages be short and clear.
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