Energy field spell...AR solution.

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Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by pblackcrow »

4+1 per level of experience. That way it can grow as the character develops.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by dreicunan »

IIRC, when we were in SDC environments we just made it so that you had to take down the 60 sdc; there was no bypassing it.

Are you playing the AR as a natural AR for the field?
Last edited by dreicunan on Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The way to fix the spell is to write in Natural before the letters AR.
Or Just treat it like a Force Field. This is how it was fixed for rifts in the RBoM.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by eliakon »

pblackcrow wrote:4+1 per level of experience. That way it can grow as the character develops.

That still means that its totally worthless until your fairly high level.
It can take years of regular gaming to get to level 6 where the field will offer a 50/50 shot at protecting you.

I just write a 1 in front and say "look AR 14"
Though I might also consider giving it a natural AR of the casters level as well.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I find that, if you consider the AR to be the AR of the field itself, which has to be brought down before anything inside can be damaged, the spell remains useful, without being overpowering.

Completely tangential thoughts: In light of the GI Joe rule, I had a thought about something that might circumvent it... Multi-warhead missiles. Not RAW, certainly, but the idea that several explosions might wind up with some going off after the protection is destroyed is appealing.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Axelmania »

RAW the benefit of AR 4 is probably when stacking with some sort of other ability which can boost AR, since you would be adding to 4 and not to 0.

If one classifies an Energy Field as an "Object" for example, the Control Density major super ability could increase it to 5, so a roll of 6+ would be needed to bypass the SDC.

Can't think of anything like that in PF though.

There the only situation I can see is protecting against natural 20s with obscure -16 to strike situations, a guaranteed hit on the field but a modified 4 meaning the AR is not surpassed.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The way to fix the spell is to write in Natural before the letters AR.
Or Just treat it like a Force Field. This is how it was fixed for rifts in the RBoM.

PF2p194's "Armor Rating is only a 4." appears to originate in HU2p35
RMB 172 phrased it "Armor Rating is 4." without an "only", which I believe was copied from page 108 of Beyond the Supernatural.
I don't think the spell existed prior to BTS, couldn't find it in revised HU/PRPG.

NB 132 removed it prior to BOM 101 though, so I think maybe we have C.J. Carella to thank?
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Can you cast Armor of Ithan on your Energy Field?
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Axelmania wrote:snip
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The way to fix the spell is to write in Natural before the letters AR.
Or Just treat it like a Force Field. This is how it was fixed for rifts in the RBoM.

PF2p194's "Armor Rating is only a 4." appears to originate in HU2p35
RMB 172 phrased it "Armor Rating is 4." without an "only", which I believe was copied from page 108 of Beyond the Supernatural.
I don't think the spell existed prior to BTS, couldn't find it in revised HU/PRPG.

NB 132 removed it prior to BOM 101 though, so I think maybe we have C.J. Carella to thank?

Axey the OP asked 'How to Fix the spell.' Not just reitterate, out of context of the OP, what the canon text says. Rules Lawyer if you don't have anything to say ""in-context"" of the OP then don't post anything ""out-of-context"".
:crane: :bandit:

EDIT: You have only mentioned that the AR component was taken out of the NS/NB setting and Rifts. The other settings still have the AR component. So the question was obiusly from the perspective of fixing the spell in those settings.
That does not answer WT :crane: you quoted me to make your OOC statements since they had nothing to do with my post?
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by The Beast »

Axelmania wrote:RAW the benefit of AR 4 is probably when stacking with some sort of other ability which can boost AR, since you would be adding to 4 and not to 0.

If one classifies an Energy Field as an "Object" for example, the Control Density major super ability could increase it to 5, so a roll of 6+ would be needed to bypass the SDC.

Can't think of anything like that in PF though.

There the only situation I can see is protecting against natural 20s with obscure -16 to strike situations, a guaranteed hit on the field but a modified 4 meaning the AR is not surpassed.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The way to fix the spell is to write in Natural before the letters AR.
Or Just treat it like a Force Field. This is how it was fixed for rifts in the RBoM.

PF2p194's "Armor Rating is only a 4." appears to originate in HU2p35
RMB 172 phrased it "Armor Rating is 4." without an "only", which I believe was copied from page 108 of Beyond the Supernatural.
I don't think the spell existed prior to BTS, couldn't find it in revised HU/PRPG.

NB 132 removed it prior to BOM 101 though, so I think maybe we have C.J. Carella to thank?


Wrong again. A natural 20 bypasses armor rating.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Well in M.D. combat AR does not apply (Rifts, Splicers, RT) as it ignores AR (nat/art.).

In S.D. combat I would treat the AR as natural and not artificial as others have stated, otherwise it makes not sense as artificial. A 1-4 strike roll is a miss (automatically), which amounts to an AR of 4. An AR of 4 then only makes sense if its natural since a roll below a NAR does no damage to the items, unlike AAR where a roll above will by pass the armor but below damages the armor.
If you are looking for ways to improve the AR consider adding in spell strength bonuses (from base) to the AR value. It might not be as good as +1 per level, which might be to much (18 at Level 15 (4+(15-1)=18), I don't think I've seen many things with an AR that high).
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The Beast wrote:Wrong again. A natural 20 bypasses armor rating.

Only "normal" AR.
Nat/robotic/vehicle ARs can't be by-passed by high strike roll.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Axelmania »

Drew, I quoted you because you said BOM fixed it, I was pointing out that it was NB which fixed it, since that came out first.

Mark Hall wrote:Can you cast Armor of Ithan on your Energy Field?

Unless spells say they can only target living beings, I usually allow 'target' to indicate objects as well.

Unless spells say they can only target humanoids, I don't see why they couldn't target simpler shapes like spheres too.

The Beast wrote:Wrong again. A natural 20 bypasses armor rating.
Quotes or it didn't happen.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Nat/robotic/vehicle ARs can't be by-passed.
I think in those cases "ignores AR" type attacks simply :evil: function as if you rolled above it, which usually means inflicting damage.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Beast wrote:Wrong again. A natural 20 bypasses armor rating.

Only "normal" AR.
Nat/robotic/vehicle ARs can't be by-passed.

*sigh* We have danced this dance before
If a strike does not damage the armor, it is bypassed that is what the word means. "Bypass, to pass by, to be unhindered by or unaffected".Thus Naturural AR is bypassed since the attack does not bounce off and instead, bypasses/passes by/is unhindered by/ is unaffected by, the armor and instead damages the SDC of the target itself.
You are correct that Robotic and Vehicular AR do not bypass as when they do not bounce off they damage the SDC of the target.

That is why they are three (or maybe two, see below) different things and not just a universal "bouncy type AR", I am not sure off hand, but there may be some difference between Vehicular AR and Robotic AR, but I am not sure. On that note, I am also not sure that there IS a Robotic AR and that it is not just described as Vehicular AR either. Both would require far more research into the topic than I care to do at this time.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Again we are not on the same page about what words being used means.

""by-passing AR"" only occurs to ˝normal AR˝. It is when the attack passes through to harm the person inside the armor.

Natural/R/V AR can not be by-passed. The Three possible options (unless it is a NAR4) are....
❖ The strike misses due to a low strike roll.
❖ The strike hits the target, but the roll is below the NAR score so does not do damage...."bounces off"
❖ The strike hits the target, and the roll is over the NAR score so the strike does damage to the SDC of the Being/Bot/Vehicle respectively.

If it has a NAR 4, the strike ether misses or strikes and does damage to the SDC of the ""whatever"".
....Just like how you handle strikes for Force Fields.

So if the fix is to add the word Natural to the AR 4 of the (non-NB/non-Rifts) EF spell then what you get Defensive field that can't be "by-passed" (instead of one that is always by-passed). The attacker has to deplete the SDC of the Field before they can hit whatever is inside the field.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Yep. the rules that state how Robotic and Vehiculer AR work are hard to find. And the writers were lazy in that when they list the RAR and VAR scores they fail to include the V and R from the title line.

No, the were NOT lazy.
Simply because they did not write the rules to your satisfaction and use your personal fannon and your personal terms does not make them lazy.
As the authors they, not you set the canon.
This is why you do not see nAR in any text. Because that is not an actual term. It is a fan made term that is not part of the canon.
This is also why there is no vAR or rAR nor anyother sort of _AR. Because those terms are not part of official Palladium canon.
Implying that the authors were lazy because they did not include your personal imaginary term is slanderous to every author that has worked on any book containing vehicles or robots in an SDC setting.

EDIT:
eliakon wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Beast wrote:Wrong again. A natural 20 bypasses armor rating.

Only "normal" AR.
Nat/robotic/vehicle ARs can't be by-passed.

*sigh* We have danced this dance before
If a strike does not damage the armor, it is bypassed that is what the word means. "Bypass, to pass by, to be unhindered by or unaffected".Thus Naturural AR is bypassed since the attack does not bounce off and instead, bypasses/passes by/is unhindered by/ is unaffected by, the armor and instead damages the SDC of the target itself.
You are correct that Robotic and Vehicular AR do not bypass as when they do not bounce off they damage the SDC of the target.

That is why they are three (or maybe two, see below) different things and not just a universal "bouncy type AR", I am not sure off hand, but there may be some difference between Vehicular AR and Robotic AR, but I am not sure. On that note, I am also not sure that there IS a Robotic AR and that it is not just described as Vehicular AR either. Both would require far more research into the topic than I care to do at this time.


An example of this bypassing is found here
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Again we are not on the same page about what words being used means.

""by-passing AR"" only occurs to ˝normal AR˝. It is when the attack passes through to harm the person inside the armor.

Natural/R/V AR can not be by-passed. The Three possible options (unless it is a NAR4) are....
❖ The strike misses due to a low strike roll.
❖ The strike hits the target, but the roll is below the NAR score so does not do damage...."bounces off"
❖ The strike hits the [color=#FF0000]target, and the roll is over the NAR score so the strike does damage to the SDC of the Being/Bot/Vehicle respectively.

If it has a NAR 4, the strike ether misses or strikes and does damage to the SDC of the ""whatever"".
....Just like how you handle strikes for Force Fields.

So if the fix is to add the word Natural to the AR 4 of the (non-NB/non-Rifts) EF spell then what you get Defensive field that can't be "by-passed" (instead of one that is always by-passed). The attacker has to deplete the SDC of the Field before they can hit whatever is inside the field.

This is bypassing the AR.
The AR has been bypassed and damage is inflicted.
The thing targeted has taken damage and its AR has availed it naught for it was bypassed.
It's definitional here.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Beast wrote:Wrong again. A natural 20 bypasses armor rating.

Only "normal" AR.
Nat/robotic/vehicle ARs can't be by-passed.

*sigh* We have danced this dance before
If a strike does not damage the armor, it is bypassed that is what the word means. "Bypass, to pass by, to be unhindered by or unaffected".Thus Naturural AR is bypassed since the attack does not bounce off and instead, bypasses/passes by/is unhindered by/ is unaffected by, the armor and instead damages the SDC of the target itself.
You are correct that Robotic and Vehicular AR do not bypass as when they do not bounce off they damage the SDC of the target.

That is why they are three (or maybe two, see below) different things and not just a universal "bouncy type AR", I am not sure off hand, but there may be some difference between Vehicular AR and Robotic AR, but I am not sure. On that note, I am also not sure that there IS a Robotic AR and that it is not just described as Vehicular AR either. Both would require far more research into the topic than I care to do at this time.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Since I picked up those terms from the canon books (or once canon books), they are not my terms.
As I said it is hard to find. Yes, I've found them before...no I don't know exactly where w/o finding them again because it is a pain itb to find them. No, I am not going to again. DIY
----------------
'by-pass' means 'to avoid' or 'go around' in the literal meaning of the words.
As per the canon text only ""normal/plain"" AR can be by-passed.

Nat AR can not be ""gotten around"" or ""avoided"". All the Damage has to Go Thought the SDC before inflicting what is inside of it.

That the NAR can be overcome by the strike roll and actually do damage to the SDC. That is a part of the canon rules.
There are no text about being able to bypass a NAR's SDC (AFAIK) as to do HP damage w/o doing any SDC damage. If there is such text share it with us.

In other words....
A being with a Nat AR will have to loose all its SDC before any HP damage is done to it.
A magical protection field with a Nat AR will have to be depleted before what is being protected can be harmed.

I Don't Know what is so troublesome in your eyes about this that you have to make a BIG DEAL about it.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by 42dragon »

Palladium Fantasy RPG, Equipment section, pg 270-271 has all the relative rules and terms.

* Any roll to strike above 4, hits and does damage unless parried or dodged.
* "Armor Rating" - "The armor rating indicates exactly how much protection is afforded by the armor and how easily it is penetrated. The higher the A.R. the better the protection." The attacker must roll higher than the defenders AR to do damage to the defender. Attack rolls = or less than the AR (but above 4) hit the armor and do SDC damage to the armor.
* "Natural Armor Rating" - "Characters will often encounter supernatural or magic creatures that have a natural armor rating (A.R.) This includes demons, deevils, demigods, godlings, gods, elementals, and creatures of magic. Any blows struck below a natural A. R. do no damage, having failed to penetrate their natural defenses."

This seems pretty clear to me, and I believe HU introduced vehicular or robot AR and these act like Natural AR if I remember correctly.

So all this info is what makes the Energy Field AR of 4 make no sense. As a 4 or less misses anyway. If it was regular worn armor AR then it would never stop any damage as 4 or less miss anyway and 5 or above beats the AR. Treating it as a Natural AR does make the most sense, as in some cases it is ruled that you don't need a roll to strike (shooting the side of a barn from 10 ft), so maybe this implies that even on a no chance of miss situation there is a chance the field still takes no damage.

I saw above an idea above that spoke of increasing this AR by the spell strength bonuses or maybe even caster level. I might steal some of these ideas. Thanks.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Axelmania »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Again we are not on the same page about what words being used means.

""by-passing AR"" only occurs to ˝normal AR˝. It is when the attack passes through to harm the person inside the armor.

What you "bypass" in the case of your usual body armor AR is the armor's SDC, you don't bypass AR so much as either roll above it or below it (latter includes ties).

Something which "ignores" AR bypasses the SDC by ignoring the process of AR comparison and treating the hit as if it rolled above the AR, as best I can tell.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Natural/R/V AR can not be by-passed. The Three possible options (unless it is a NAR4) are....
❖ The strike misses due to a low strike roll.
❖ The strike hits the target, but the roll is below the NAR score so does not do damage...."bounces off"
❖ The strike hits the target, and the roll is over the NAR score so the strike does damage to the SDC of the Being/Bot/Vehicle respectively.

In some cases rolling below NAR still has you do half damaged, but a reduced amount like half damage, as we see with some HU APS powers. Usually you're correct though, that's how NAR operates by default.

A fourth possible option is that the strike hits the target, the roll is below the NAR, but that doesn't matter because it has an 'ignores AR' property.

eliakon wrote:This is also why there is no vAR or rAR nor anyother sort of _AR. Because those terms are not part of official Palladium canon.

HU2p210 refers to "the robot A.R. rules" under 3. Reinforced Pilot Compartment.

Funny enough the top of the left column of 210 does not explain how robot AR is NAR. Page 18 appears to allude to it:
    Natural A.R. Some forms of armor are vastly superior to simple body armor. Such armors include vehicle armor, robot armor, and Natural Armor.

But the way it's listed separately (VA, RA and NA) actually makes it sound different.

I don't think RA being NA was actually clarified until later errata?

42dragon wrote:I believe HU introduced vehicular or robot AR and these act like Natural AR if I remember correctly.

I think so, per some errata. Per just what's in the book I'm not so sure. 18 talks about how VA/RA/NA are all "vastly superior to simple body armor" but only explains how NA functions.

It doesn't explain how VA/RA function and makes them sound like different things by listing them separately.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by dreicunan »

Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Again we are not on the same page about what words being used means.

""by-passing AR"" only occurs to ˝normal AR˝. It is when the attack passes through to harm the person inside the armor.

What you "bypass" in the case of your usual body armor AR is the armor's SDC, you don't bypass AR so much as either roll above it or below it (latter includes ties).

Something which "ignores" AR bypasses the SDC by ignoring the process of AR comparison and treating the hit as if it rolled above the AR, as best I can tell.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Natural/R/V AR can not be by-passed. The Three possible options (unless it is a NAR4) are....
❖ The strike misses due to a low strike roll.
❖ The strike hits the target, but the roll is below the NAR score so does not do damage...."bounces off"
❖ The strike hits the target, and the roll is over the NAR score so the strike does damage to the SDC of the Being/Bot/Vehicle respectively.

In some cases rolling below NAR still has you do half damaged, but a reduced amount like half damage, as we see with some HU APS powers. Usually you're correct though, that's how NAR operates by default.

A fourth possible option is that the strike hits the target, the roll is below the NAR, but that doesn't matter because it has an 'ignores AR' property.

eliakon wrote:This is also why there is no vAR or rAR nor anyother sort of _AR. Because those terms are not part of official Palladium canon.

HU2p210 refers to "the robot A.R. rules" under 3. Reinforced Pilot Compartment.

Funny enough the top of the left column of 210 does not explain how robot AR is NAR. Page 18 appears to allude to it:
    Natural A.R. Some forms of armor are vastly superior to simple body armor. Such armors include vehicle armor, robot armor, and Natural Armor.

But the way it's listed separately (VA, RA and NA) actually makes it sound different.

I don't think RA being NA was actually clarified until later errata?

42dragon wrote:I believe HU introduced vehicular or robot AR and these act like Natural AR if I remember correctly.

I think so, per some errata. Per just what's in the book I'm not so sure. 18 talks about how VA/RA/NA are all "vastly superior to simple body armor" but only explains how NA functions.

It doesn't explain how VA/RA function and makes them sound like different things by listing them separately.

"Natural Armor" is not the same as "Natural Armor Rating." It is listing three type of armor that get a natural AR. Thus, Robot AR and Vehicle AR are understandable adaptations of the terms.
Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Since I picked up those terms from the canon books (or once canon books), they are not my terms.
As I said it is hard to find. Yes, I've found them before...no I don't know exactly where w/o finding them again because it is a pain itb to find them. No, I am not going to again. DIY


I think you misunderstand how "burden of proof" works.
You are making a claim. In this case, that authors are lazy and that you are correct. Your assertion is that they are not using a term that is canon that they should be using. Therfore it is YOUR burden to demonstrate that the term is actually canon.
It is not MY burden to go through every book in existance to verify that it does not exist.
I do not have to prove a negative, you must proove a positive.

Untill you do so your claim is unsubstantiated.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Axelmania wrote: Usually you're correct though, that's how NAR operates by default.

It is so unusual that you agree with my spot on assessment of what canon says.

Axelmania wrote:A fourth possible option is that the strike hits the target, the roll is below the NAR, but that doesn't matter because it has an 'ignores AR' property.

I was stating the possibilities that were within the NAR text.
It is within the realm of interpritation that weapons that ignore AR will also ignore Nat. ARs too.

In the NB book it talks in text about the NL's minions cutting up tanks with their darkblades during the dark day. So there is some textual examples of them ignoring Nat. AR's if the Tanks had Vehiculer AR that uses the same mechanics as Nat. AR.

------------------

You might of been misinterpreting what I said Eli. Since it seams you didn't read the subtext.

Since before now you never disagreed with the fact that there are RAR & VAR before this I am wondering why now?
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Axelmania »

dreicunan wrote:"Natural Armor" is not the same as "Natural Armor Rating." It is listing three type of armor that get a natural AR. Thus, Robot AR and Vehicle AR are understandable adaptations of the terms.

Ah, nice catch, good point. I didn't really perceive the NAR/NA distinction.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:In the NB book it talks in text about the NL's minions cutting up tanks with their darkblades during the dark day.
So there is some textual examples of them ignoring Nat.
AR's if the Tanks had Vehiculer AR that uses the same mechanics as Nat. AR.

Strangely enough, wherever you saw the text about tanks in NB (sounds familiar but can't recall where), the HU GM's Guide in June 1999 which helps to clarify how this could occur. Page 111 first mentions "can cut through any ordinary material with ease" but then mentions an "alternative" of AR it hits being 3 lower, almost as good as a +3 to strike, essentially (except it wouldn't make the attack harder to defend against, or less likely to miss). It also gives the 1/2 to invulnerable 1d6 to intangible, also absent in NB.

I figure the "meaning an A.R. of 18 would really be the equivalent of an A.R. 15 to a Darkblade" was intended for tanks... I'm not really sure how much they have though, page 156 of Contemporary Weapons only assigns SDC, even though they reprinted it in 1999, it doesn't seem like they updated the book to include HU2 concepts of natural AR.

Which is weird because even revised HU had robot AR, on page 150.

Of course even without any special rules, Hounds can have pretty decent strike bonuses so bypassing the AR of a tank wouldn't be that far out of reach. They have +1 to strike inherently, a +6 to PP meaning the average one will have another +1 to strike (and they'll probably pick the above-average ones to rush tanks and other stuff with AR), a +2 from HTH assasin, and a WP (either sword of polearm) is another +1 (or 2 if sword is 3rd level). So that's going to mean an average of +5 to strike. So an HU2 robot with AR maxed out at 17 could still be beaten with a 13-20.

NB doesn't have PF-like rules for Kobold/Dwarven bonuses for finely crafted weapons, but HU does, so you could assume the Nightlords have that kind of quality for some darkblades and equip some of their troops (more likely the Hound Masters, can't see them wasting rare weaponry on normal ones) with well-balanced ones which give combat bonuses.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

And you are crossing setting lines there Axe.
And this has drifted from talking about how people would fix the AR 4 Energy Field spell.
Of which I don't think you have stated your opinion about how to fix the AR4 EF spell. You just stated canon texts about the spell is defined in different settings. And things got distracted down a NAR rabbit hole.
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Mark Hall wrote:Can you cast Armor of Ithan on your Energy Field?

No you can not cast AoI on an EF. But you can cast a AoI on something/-body inside an EF. However, the AoI spell is written as to assume that the mage is casting it on a person.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by pblackcrow »

Mark Hall wrote:I find that, if you consider the AR to be the AR of the field itself, which has to be brought down before anything inside can be damaged, the spell remains useful, without being overpowering..


I agree. However, it is still a weak force field at a 4 to damage it. Heck, it is the baseline to hit anything.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Library Ogre »

pblackcrow wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I find that, if you consider the AR to be the AR of the field itself, which has to be brought down before anything inside can be damaged, the spell remains useful, without being overpowering..


I agree. However, it is still a weak force field at a 4 to damage it. Heck, it is the baseline to hit anything.


Sure, but it's also a 4th level spell. It costs 10 PPE to make a solid wall of energy that will, in Rifts, shrug off all SDC weapons, and will do that for MDC weapons (or all weapons in non-MD settings) for more damage than most people have health. It's "Instabunker" that'll eat one or two grenades, not Impervious Fortress of Awesome.

AR 4 means "It's a big wall. It's pretty easy to shoot a wall."
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by eliakon »

Mark Hall wrote:
pblackcrow wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I find that, if you consider the AR to be the AR of the field itself, which has to be brought down before anything inside can be damaged, the spell remains useful, without being overpowering..


I agree. However, it is still a weak force field at a 4 to damage it. Heck, it is the baseline to hit anything.


Sure, but it's also a 4th level spell. It costs 10 PPE to make a solid wall of energy that will, in Rifts, shrug off all SDC weapons, and will do that for MDC weapons (or all weapons in non-MD settings) for more damage than most people have health. It's "Instabunker" that'll eat one or two grenades, not Impervious Fortress of Awesome.

AR 4 means "It's a big wall. It's pretty easy to shoot a wall."

^this^
AR 4 just means if you hit the wall, then you hit the wall. Roll damage.
After all the wall isn't the persons armor but basically a wall. It doesn't matter WHAT the AR is technically... since it is a physical object in the path of the attack you sort of have to hit it to get at the objects inside of it.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

eliakon wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
pblackcrow wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I find that, if you consider the AR to be the AR of the field itself, which has to be brought down before anything inside can be damaged, the spell remains useful, without being overpowering..


I agree. However, it is still a weak force field at a 4 to damage it. Heck, it is the baseline to hit anything.


Sure, but it's also a 4th level spell. It costs 10 PPE to make a solid wall of energy that will, in Rifts, shrug off all SDC weapons, and will do that for MDC weapons (or all weapons in non-MD settings) for more damage than most people have health. It's "Instabunker" that'll eat one or two grenades, not Impervious Fortress of Awesome.

AR 4 means "It's a big wall. It's pretty easy to shoot a wall."

^this^
AR 4 just means if you hit the wall, then you hit the wall. Roll damage.
After all the wall isn't the persons armor but basically a wall. It doesn't matter WHAT the AR is technically... since it is a physical object in the path of the attack you sort of have to hit it to get at the objects inside of it.

Exasperated No. That is not what AR 4 means.

AR 4 means look they have put themselves in a target. Like putting up a tent made of plastic wrap so the opponents can see you better. Roll damage to who/whatever is inside.
Nat AR 4 "means if you hit the wall, then you hit the wall. Roll damage to the wall."

That AR 4 means that whatever hits the EF goes through the EF to hit whatever is inside the EF. Via the AR rules for rolling above the AR of the protection. This is the WHY the OP posted his ""fix"" for the AR 4 problem. And why the spell was 'fixed' in NS and RBoM.

Edit, P.S.: I will have to agree that the writer ""Meant"" for it to mean a Nat AR 4. But that is not what was written. Which is the difference between 'intention' and RAW. Which is why, in my games, I fix it to be a NAR 4.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Axelmania »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:And you are crossing setting lines there Axe.

Eh, you're the one who brought up darkblades and proposed they ignored AR. HUGMG doing a Nightbane conversion and adding some properties isn't that big a cross, we are on an inter-system forum after all.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:That AR 4 means that whatever hits the EF goes through the EF to hit whatever is inside the EF.
Via the AR rules for rolling above the AR of the protection.
This is the WHY the OP posted his ""fix"" for the AR 4 problem. And why the spell was 'fixed' in NS and RBoM.

I can't confirm if the Nightspawn edition had fixed it or not, I only have NB :)

HU having AR-boosting abilities (albeit in supplements, I don't know anything in the core book which could do it) does provide some role for AR 4 though.

I'm trying to remember, are there any attacks out there which increase the effects of AR? Like "AR counts as x points higher against this attack, it sucks at piercing armor" ?
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

And I only brought DBs up as a example of weapons that ignore AR in reference to their ability to cut through tanks as a possible support to them ignoring NAR. And what you stated was the optional nerfing of darkblades suggested on page 111 of the HUGMG. Which do not talk about how DBs ignore AR work on NAR.
(Thou, there are some interesting ideas brought up in the latter half of the optional nerfing. which do not fit into the current topic.)
-----------------------
I do have the NS MB.
--------
informational
PF2: Cloth armor is AR 5.
HU2: Quilted armor is AR 8.
-------
informational
The text about how different types of armor protect from different types of attacks are in the ancient weapons compendiums. But those texts are considered to be optional.
I would guess they are somewhere between "in a canon book Optional" and "in the rifter optional" if giving weight to how close to canon the text is.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Library Ogre »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Exasperated No. That is not what AR 4 means.

AR 4 means look they have put themselves in a target. Like putting up a tent made of plastic wrap so the opponents can see you better. Roll damage to who/whatever is inside.
Nat AR 4 "means if you hit the wall, then you hit the wall. Roll damage to the wall."

That AR 4 means that whatever hits the EF goes through the EF to hit whatever is inside the EF. Via the AR rules for rolling above the AR of the protection. This is the WHY the OP posted his ""fix"" for the AR 4 problem. And why the spell was 'fixed' in NS and RBoM.

Edit, P.S.: I will have to agree that the writer ""Meant"" for it to mean a Nat AR 4. But that is not what was written. Which is the difference between 'intention' and RAW. Which is why, in my games, I fix it to be a NAR 4.


I disagree.

The energy field does not CONFER an AR of 4. It HAS an AR of 4. Being as it is not armor, and functions as a solid object, its AR is the AR of itself, not the AR it confers on those behind it, any more than the AR of a brick wall is conferred on those who hide behind it.

Your interpretation makes the spell entirely nonsense, and only works if you assume, wrongly, that Energy Field is body armor, and not, as the spell says, a wall.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by dreicunan »

Mark Hall wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Exasperated No. That is not what AR 4 means.

AR 4 means look they have put themselves in a target. Like putting up a tent made of plastic wrap so the opponents can see you better. Roll damage to who/whatever is inside.
Nat AR 4 "means if you hit the wall, then you hit the wall. Roll damage to the wall."

That AR 4 means that whatever hits the EF goes through the EF to hit whatever is inside the EF. Via the AR rules for rolling above the AR of the protection. This is the WHY the OP posted his ""fix"" for the AR 4 problem. And why the spell was 'fixed' in NS and RBoM.

Edit, P.S.: I will have to agree that the writer ""Meant"" for it to mean a Nat AR 4. But that is not what was written. Which is the difference between 'intention' and RAW. Which is why, in my games, I fix it to be a NAR 4.


I disagree.

The energy field does not CONFER an AR of 4. It HAS an AR of 4. Being as it is not armor, and functions as a solid object, its AR is the AR of itself, not the AR it confers on those behind it, any more than the AR of a brick wall is conferred on those who hide behind it.

Your interpretation makes the spell entirely nonsense, and only works if you assume, wrongly, that Energy Field is body armor, and not, as the spell says, a wall.

That is a great point. Think of items like the bullet resistant attaché case from HU2. AR 15 and 140 sdc. I doubt anyone would argue that carrying it grants the attaché an AR 15. The only logical interpretation is that it is the AR of the case itself, and thus ia treated as a natural AR. That entry, the normal briefcase entry, and the entries for every vehicle demonstrate that objects with an AR are listed with only the term AR. Thus, we can't just rely on "AR" and "Natural AR" to decide what kind of AR it is. We have to look at the nature of item which has the AR.

I'd say that settles it. The AR is and always has been a natural AR.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

dreicunan wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Exasperated No. That is not what AR 4 means.

AR 4 means look they have put themselves in a target. Like putting up a tent made of plastic wrap so the opponents can see you better. Roll damage to who/whatever is inside.
Nat AR 4 "means if you hit the wall, then you hit the wall. Roll damage to the wall."

That AR 4 means that whatever hits the EF goes through the EF to hit whatever is inside the EF. Via the AR rules for rolling above the AR of the protection. This is the WHY the OP posted his ""fix"" for the AR 4 problem. And why the spell was 'fixed' in NS and RBoM.

Edit, P.S.: I will have to agree that the writer ""Meant"" for it to mean a Nat AR 4. But that is not what was written. Which is the difference between 'intention' and RAW. Which is why, in my games, I fix it to be a NAR 4.


I disagree.

The energy field does not CONFER an AR of 4. It HAS an AR of 4. Being as it is not armor, and functions as a solid object, its AR is the AR of itself, not the AR it confers on those behind it, any more than the AR of a brick wall is conferred on those who hide behind it.

Your interpretation makes the spell entirely nonsense, and only works if you assume, wrongly, that Energy Field is body armor, and not, as the spell says, a wall.

That is a great point. Think of items like the bullet resistant attaché case from HU2. AR 15 and 140 sdc. I doubt anyone would argue that carrying it grants the attaché an AR 15. The only logical interpretation is that it is the AR of the case itself, and thus ia treated as a natural AR. That entry, the normal briefcase entry, and the entries for every vehicle demonstrate that objects with an AR are listed with only the term AR. Thus, we can't just rely on "AR" and "Natural AR" to decide what kind of AR it is. We have to look at the nature of item which has the AR.

I'd say that settles it. The AR is and always has been a natural AR.


Yeah, there are quite a few inanimate objects that have an Armor Rating, and it applies to the object itself, whether or not it's listed as "natural" armor or not.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Axelmania »

In the case of an attache case I have to wonder if the AR might be in respect to protecting whatever you have inside the case.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:what you stated was the optional nerfing of darkblades suggested on page 111 of the HUGMG. Which do not talk about how DBs ignore AR work on NAR.

The question is "nerfed from what" since I'm not actually seeing anywhere that says they ignored AR to begin with. Perhaps just implied?

You don't even need magical weapons to slice through tanks, anybody with a pocket knife can damage tank SDC if they get a decent enough strike roll.

Giving tanks the same properties as APS Metal (immunity to mundane attacks) would probably be a good idea.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Mark Hall wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Exasperated No. That is not what AR 4 means.

AR 4 means look they have put themselves in a target. Like putting up a tent made of plastic wrap so the opponents can see you better. Roll damage to who/whatever is inside.
Nat AR 4 "means if you hit the wall, then you hit the wall. Roll damage to the wall."

That AR 4 means that whatever hits the EF goes through the EF to hit whatever is inside the EF. Via the AR rules for rolling above the AR of the protection. This is the WHY the OP posted his ""fix"" for the AR 4 problem. And why the spell was 'fixed' in NS and RBoM.

Edit, P.S.: I will have to agree that the writer ""Meant"" for it to mean a Nat AR 4. But that is not what was written. Which is the difference between 'intention' and RAW. Which is why, in my games, I fix it to be a NAR 4.


I disagree.

The energy field does not CONFER an AR of 4. It HAS an AR of 4. Being as it is not armor, and functions as a solid object, its AR is the AR of itself, not the AR it confers on those behind it, any more than the AR of a brick wall is conferred on those who hide behind it.

Your interpretation makes the spell entirely nonsense, and only works if you assume, wrongly, that Energy Field is body armor, and not, as the spell says, a wall.

Here is the thing, when someone turns to the AR rules and reads them there is no mention of objects having different mechanics to follow. There is only AR and Nat AR mentioned.

So what I am hearing you say, translating them in to the standard AR rules, is that objects automatically have a Nat AR even thou they only say AR x.

So what I hear your (and Eli's) complaint is that I'm am simplifying what is meant into the what the published text says about AR/NAR in the Combat Terms section of the canon texts. Instead of just knowing that when an object is talked about that the AR has the same mechanic as NAR, instead of ('normal'/'body armor') AR and thinking that. Which, to me, is entirely nonsensical. Since we are both saying what is being talked about is the same rules mechanic. The Natural Armor Rating rules mechanic.

Now take a deep breath and think it over for a while before responding. Are they the same mechanic? If they are then what is the :crane: big deal about just calling it like it is so Newbies can understand it?
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Again, you are pushing far more precise and prescriptivist language on Palladium authors than they have ever shown an affinity for... and I say that as a Palladium author. Early material, especially the copypasta, tends to be breezily worded with the assumption that you'll follow the sense of things. When read completely literally, many spells and abilities stop making sense... such as Cure Illness being ineffective against viruses, but for some reason fully effective against the flu.

But that is your way, and it is useless to argue with you, since you fail to understand that, and have failed to understand that for nearly 20 years.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Mark Hall wrote:snip...
Early material, especially the copy-paste a, tends to be breezily worded with the assumption that you'll follow the sense of things. When read completely literally, many spells and abilities stop making sense... such as Cure Illness being ineffective against viruses, but for some reason fully effective against the flu.

I agree with all of the above. So I was glad when NS/NB fixed the EF spell to mean what it was meant to mean.


Mark Hall wrote:But that is your way, and it is useless to argue with you, since you fail to understand that, and have failed to understand that for nearly 20 years.

You might say I'm a bit pissed off because you said this "...you fail to understand that, and have failed to understand that for nearly 20 years." Cause I have understood the :crane: N problem. Which is why I had my 'fix' for the EF spell for over two decades. And my fix blatently says what rules mechanic to use, instead of just assuming everyone is smart enough to know which mechanic to use when the surface level text make no :crane: n sense.


And then before that I get a 'No, you are wrong. It is not a Nat. AR 4 mechanic.' Then those people go right on an and state out the NAR 4 mechanic description and say that is the right mechanic to use.

Yes, I'm pissed.

Instead of saying I was 'wrong' for stating the correct mechanic in a way you didn't like. If you (& eli) had said something like 'Yes, you are right that that the mechanic to use.' Then maybe there would not of been an ""ARGUMENT!" and we would of had a 'discussion'.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by pblackcrow »

Mark Hall wrote:
pblackcrow wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I find that, if you consider the AR to be the AR of the field itself, which has to be brought down before anything inside can be damaged, the spell remains useful, without being overpowering..


I agree. However, it is still a weak force field at a 4 to damage it. Heck, it is the baseline to hit anything.


Sure, but it's also a 4th level spell. It costs 10 PPE to make a solid wall of energy that will, in Rifts, shrug off all SDC weapons, and will do that for MDC weapons (or all weapons in non-MD settings) for more damage than most people have health. It's "Instabunker" that'll eat one or two grenades, not Impervious Fortress of Awesome.

AR 4 means "It's a big wall. It's pretty easy to shoot a wall."


Yes, but a force field should be able to absorb some damage dealt to it at higher levels. Armor of ithan has 100sdc + 10 Per level in PFRPG and a very high AR for penetration. Does it not? And I agree that they should have said to hit the wall roll a 4...but to do damage to it, I feel it should go up as you level up...I think it should be able to absorb some of the damage. That's what I am saying. However, I am not arguing that yes, it is a big wall, and easy to hit. Just like I'm not trying to to argue that the AR is of the field itself. But do factor in the to hit bonuses that you get form things like weapons with pluses to hit, hand to hand, books, and wp skills. Okay? So, is it really that much to ask for? I don't believe so.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The difference that is being talked about is between the AR mechanic and the Nat. AR mechanic.
The PF AoI has/uses the AR mechanic. What everyone here is saying is that the EF uses the Nat. AR mechanic (even thou some-people refuse say it that way.)

The first thing I saw was...The problem with evaluating any AR (AR or NAR) at a strike roll of 4 is that the a strike roll of 4 misses the target.

Moving one to the core ideas.....
So evaluating what you suggested in the OP for the EF AR as a NAR ....

I have no problem with that if for a HU game. Thou, otherwise I would make the level up bonus only +1 to the NAR for every two levels, or every three levels.
Or...
Start the '+1 per level' level up bonuses at level 6.
-----------
But then again the EF field can protect up to 8 human-sized people @ level one.

Both AoI and EF cost 10 PPE to cast. But with the EF spell using a Nat. AR, along with the numbers of people it can protect, the power levels between the AoI and the EF spells are about the same. If anything I would just add in the same '+10 SDC per level' that the AoI gets as a level up bonus to the EF spell's SDC.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by dreicunan »

Axelmania wrote:In the case of an attache case I have to wonder if the AR might be in respect to protecting whatever you have inside the case.

That seems unlikely. It is a case. It isn't like it has gaps to go through without damaging the case!
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Axelmania »

Maybe we should just house-rule adding Spell Strength to natural AR? That wouldn't get too powerful.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I like that house rule. One might also end-run it by doing a ritual for an instant +4 bonus.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Here is the thing, when someone turns to the AR rules and reads them there is no mention of objects having different mechanics to follow. There is only AR and Nat AR mentioned.

That is because they do not have different mechanics

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:So what I am hearing you say, translating them in to the standard AR rules, is that objects automatically have a Nat AR even thou they only say AR x.

No that is not what is being said. Just the opposite in fact.
Things have regular AR unless it says otherwise.

The wall has regular AR.
If you roll over the AR you damage the object if you roll under the AR you damage... the object's SDC
The wall is part of the person.


drewkitty ~..~ wrote:So what I hear your (and Eli's) complaint is that I'm am simplifying what is meant into the what the published text says about AR/NAR in the Combat Terms section of the canon texts. Instead of just knowing that when an object is talked about that the AR has the same mechanic as NAR, instead of ('normal'/'body armor') AR and thinking that. Which, to me, is entirely nonsensical. Since we are both saying what is being talked about is the same rules mechanic. The Natural Armor Rating rules mechanic.

But it is not the NAR mechanic.
The wall does NOT have a nAR. If you some how increase the AR of the field to 10 and roll an 8 the attack does not bounce off the wall. Therefore it is not nAR.
Again, the attack is being leveled against the wall not the person, thus it is only providing protection for them incidentally. The wall is NOT providing an AR check to see if you damage the person behind the wall. There is no provision in the game for people to ignore walls, you must shoot through it first.


drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Now take a deep breath and think it over for a while before responding. Are they the same mechanic? If they are then what is the :crane: big deal about just calling it like it is so Newbies can understand it?

They are not the same mechanic in any way, shape or form.
nAR applies to the AR of the object in question. If you roll under the AR of an object's armor the attack does no damage. If you roll over the AR you damage the armor.
AR means that if you roll over the AR of the armor then you damage the object and if you roll under the AR you damage the armor.

The field has no 'armor' to damage so its AR4 is fine... rolling under a 4 is a miss anyway so the issue is moot there.

But Energy Field does not, itself, have armor on it that can therefor have the nAR mechanic be implimented.
Energy Field simply interposes a barrier like a wall. It can not be ignored by a good shot but must be brought down before an object behind it can be damaged.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

*shakes head*
I still don't understand why you are Vehemently opposed to describing the EF as using the NAR 4 mechanic, and then go ahead and then describe the NAR 4 mechanic as what you would use. I am not the one being hypocritical in what I am saying.

Yes, I understand what you are saying your objections are. But they are moot because you still Keep Describing the NAR 4 mechanic as the mechanic to use for the the EF spells AR. So pardon me if I find that hypocritical of you to keep this up as if you want to make this into a " :crane: ARGUMENT!!"

If you care to note that I, drewkitty ~..~, have Never Ever said that the AR mechanic to use for the EF spell (or Force Fields) was anything other then a Nat AR 4. Not NAR 8. Not NAR 10. Not ANY NAR, except for NAR 4.
So I AM NOT SAYING TO USE THE Nat AR MECHANIC IN GENERAL! I have been very specifically saying to used the 'Nat. AR 4' Mechanic. And ONLY saying to use the Nat AR 4 mechanic.

There are only TWO 'Armor Rating' mechanics.
✦To use the 'normal' AR mechanic for the EF spell if lunacy....might as well not learn the EF spell at all. If the EF spell's AR was a normal AR, there would offer absolutely NO PROTECTION whatsoever.
✦That just leaves the Nat. AR mechanic. And since the EF spell sets the AR score at 4. That leaves using the Nat AR 4 mechanic.

YouR objections about how NAR scores of more then '4' act are irrelevant/moot/foolish when complaining about how Nat AR 4 acts. And I had so much better respect for you.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Axelmania »

Normal or natural, I've been thinking of things like falling objects, spreading fires, timed explosions, etc. Things without strike rolls.

RAW it would seem like since they cannot roll above AR that any AR (even a 4 which is always surpassed by anything that is not a miss) would be enough to stop it, whether that meant (natural) no damage or hitting the target's SDC instead of what it protects (normal).

Alternatively, one might interpret some of these things as always surpassing AR.

When I think of someone in medieval armor being burned to death, for example. Surely the flames will sear their flesh prior to SDC of armor reaching 0?

I can't remember if I had read something to this effect somewhere... but I forget where.

But this might be a key area to explore for the usefulness of having AR of 1 or 2 or 3 or 4.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Axelmania wrote:Normal or natural, I've been thinking of things like falling objects, spreading fires, timed explosions, etc. Things without strike rolls.

RAW it would seem like since they cannot roll above AR that any AR (even a 4 which is always surpassed by anything that is not a miss) would be enough to stop it, whether that meant (natural) no damage or hitting the target's SDC instead of what it protects (normal).

Alternatively, one might interpret some of these things as always surpassing AR.

When I think of someone in medieval armor being burned to death, for example. Surely the flames will sear their flesh prior to SDC of armor reaching 0?

I can't remember if I had read something to this effect somewhere... but I forget where.

But this might be a key area to explore for the usefulness of having AR of 1 or 2 or 3 or 4.


Actually, this intersects a bit with how I've always run Energy Field.
To me, the AR of 4 meant that even in cases where there would normally be no chance of missing--and therefore no need for a strike roll--the presence of an Armor Rating would mean that a strike roll was made.

Applying that logic to the situations you describe, I might well rule that while the attack hits the target, a strike roll should still be made in order to see if the attack bypasses the Armor Rating.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by eliakon »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:*shakes head*
I still don't understand why you are Vehemently opposed to describing the EF as using the NAR 4 mechanic, and then go ahead and then describe the NAR 4 mechanic as what you would use. I am not the one being hypocritical in what I am saying.

Yes, I understand what you are saying your objections are. But they are moot because you still Keep Describing the NAR 4 mechanic as the mechanic to use for the the EF spells AR. So pardon me if I find that hypocritical of you to keep this up as if you want to make this into a " :crane: ARGUMENT!!"

No I am not.
the natural AR mechanic has the feature "Rolls below the AR do no damage and bounce off"
That does not apply here.
Even if you can raise the AR of the energy field in some way it still will never cause damage to 'bounce off harmlessly' thus it is not nAR.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:If you care to note that I, drewkitty ~..~, have Never Ever said that the AR mechanic to use for the EF spell (or Force Fields) was anything other then a Nat AR 4. Not NAR 8. Not NAR 10. Not ANY NAR, except for NAR 4.
So I AM NOT SAYING TO USE THE Nat AR MECHANIC IN GENERAL! I have been very specifically saying to used the 'Nat. AR 4' Mechanic. And ONLY saying to use the Nat AR 4 mechanic.

There are only TWO 'Armor Rating' mechanics.
✦To use the 'normal' AR mechanic for the EF spell if lunacy....might as well not learn the EF spell at all. If the EF spell's AR was a normal AR, there would offer absolutely NO PROTECTION whatsoever.
✦That just leaves the Nat. AR mechanic. And since the EF spell sets the AR score at 4. That leaves using the Nat AR 4 mechanic.

YouR objections about how NAR scores of more then '4' act are irrelevant/moot/foolish when complaining about how Nat AR 4 acts. And I had so much better respect for you.

There are two forms of ar
Regular AR and Natural AR

Regular AR on a wall means you have to damage the wall
Natural AR on a wall means you can sometimes have the attack fail to damage the wall.

You keep acting as if the energy field spell is an armor spell for the caster and that its AR is the AR of the armor that the caster gains from this armor spell. It is not. It is an independant object. Thus it is NOT natural AR to say that attacks damage the field not the caster... because the ability to damage people hiding behind walls with out damaging the walls is not a function of the combat system/AR mechanic.

To be blunt.
Energy Field provides cover. A wall. It is an object that exists between shooter A and target B A I B
When A shoots B, they must first bring down wall I, before ANYTHING can affect B.
That means that they must damage wall I
Regular AR says "roll over the AR 4 and damage the wall, roll under the AR... and miss the wall (and if you raise the AR of the spell some how you would STILL damage the wall amusingly since the spell has no seperate armor)

Basically... the AR is irelivant because it is regular AR

If the spell had NATURAL AR though, then if I raise the AR somehow (lets say to 6) then the results change
1-4 miss
2-6 Hit wall, do no damage
7+ do damage to wall

See the difference?

If we went with the suggestsions here that give the spell a rather large nAR (like 10 or so)then the chart becomes thus
1-4 miss
5-10 hit wall, do no damage
11+ do damage to the wall's SDC

The spell does nothing to imply that the wall has any sort of such invincibile damage resistance built in. Thus the spell does not provide NATURAL AR.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Again Eliakon you are saying ....

"""Drew you are wrong because you are using words I don't like you using to describe the same mechanic that I'm describing.""" Yes, you are the one causing this argument because you are not accepting that I am saying, with different words, to use the same mechanic you are saying to use.

Quoting someone that is usually on the ball to use his words to deliver what I am saying: "roll over the AR 4 and damage the wall, roll under the AR... and miss the wall..." Since this is what NAR 4 mechanic means, I see no reason to change how I say to use this mechanic.

normal/regular AR does not use the NAR mechanic in any way shape or form. With normal/regular AR; paraphrasing from the canon text; if you roll over the AR score the attack goes through the protection and hits what is inside the 'protection'. So having an normal AR 4 is saying 'ALL attacks go through this protection and hits what is inside it'.

The EF spell says the AR score is 4, not 6 and not 10. The AR score is 4.
And I am saying to use the NAR 4 mechanic, to be plain spoken w/o needing to explain the mechanic. To change the NAR score from 4 to something else is to be not talking about what I am talking about. This means your examples of evaluating NAR @ scores 6 & 10 are not applicable to this argument, because they are not examples of What I, Drew, Am Saying/talking about.

This is besides the explanation of your house rule about how normal AR works, has no resemblance to what the canon text says what the normal AR mechanic is.

By the way, there is no Somehow to raise the AR score of the EF spell's effects without crafting a whole new <descriptive adverb>spell. And I for one would require the spell text state which AR (AR or NAR) mechanic that the NEW spell used.
Since I have been saying to use the "NAR 4 mechanic", your examples eli are not an example of what I have been saying.
(yes, it is much simpler to just say it is a NAR 4 because that is the shortest way of saying which AR mechanic to use and @ what score to evaluate the mechanic at. Which is the same mechanic you Eli have been saying to use.)
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Now lets step back a bit and consider the AoIthan spell. If we go by what you are saying is the normal AR mechanic, with the protection of normal AR 18 (PF2MB): a roll of 1-4 misses and a roll of 19 and higher damages just the spells protective SDC. But if strike roll is in the 5-18 range if just damages the SDC. This does not sound like the normal AR as described in the canon texts.
The AoI spell's AR is normal/regular AR....right?
yep, your mechanic sounds like it is just a NAR 4 mechanic writ large to impress those, to show how convolutedly smart you are. Not like drewkitty who is wrong out of his mind, who just simplified it into something that can be easily understood by people just reading the canon text.


And here I read the AoI canon text and the normal AR canon text...that on rolls 1-4 the strike misses, and on rolls 5-18 it hits the spell's protective SDC and on rolls of 19 an d higher it hits who/whatever is inside the spells protection. And it is nothing like the mechanic you have been saying to use for the EF spell. That you are claiming to be 'normal/regular AR'.

So pardon me if I find your explanation of how I am wrong just because I am specifically saying to use the NAR 4 mechanic, vs you saying that the spell's Ar is ""normal""/""regular"" AR and saying to use the same mechanic that I'm saying to use......is somehow seams to be crazy, wrong, stupid, asinine, insane, unsound, oddball, lunatic, mad, flawed.

Maybe stop acting the card 11e'or and just acknowledge that we are both talking about the same game mechanic and end this argument that you are making you look bad, and worse with every iteration.


Analogy:
canon normal/regular AR are oranges.
Nat AR, and Your regular AR are apples.

So quit complain I'm saying Gala and you are saying Fuji. They are both apples.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Axelmania »

Perhaps the point of AR 4 is to deal with rules where "can't miss" applies?

In those cases people might normally avoid rolling (you don't need to roll 5+ if you already can't miss), but when AR exists, you would still roll, because not missing (hitting) is not the same as surpassing AR.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Axelmania wrote:Perhaps the point of AR 4 is to deal with rules where "can't miss" applies?

In those cases people might normally avoid rolling (you don't need to roll 5+ if you already can't miss), but when AR exists, you would still roll, because not missing (hitting) is not the same as surpassing AR.

What you said does not make sense. Please rewrite.
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Re: Energy field spell...AR solution.

Unread post by Axelmania »

I'm asking if you know of any situations where "can't miss" or "automatic hit" applies. In that case there's no chance of not hitting you target.

But in the case of AR being in the way you'd still have to roll because your target is the collective entity of armor + wearer.
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