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 Post subject: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:18 am
  

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This has probably been asked before. But if a mage cast magic net on a person who had wingless flight could his victim keep flying and fly away?

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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:33 am
  

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I'd allow the flight to continue with a little modification. If the flyer is wrapped up in a net, I'd give a few penalties (penalty to dodge, can't quite fly straight, navigates poorly, etc.). Basically, he flies like a wounded duck.

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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:17 pm
  

Palladin

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Mack wrote:
I'd allow the flight to continue with a little modification. If the flyer is wrapped up in a net, I'd give a few penalties (penalty to dodge, can't quite fly straight, navigates poorly, etc.). Basically, he flies like a wounded duck.


and, of course, can't use physical attacks etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:06 pm
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
Mack wrote:
I'd allow the flight to continue with a little modification. If the flyer is wrapped up in a net, I'd give a few penalties (penalty to dodge, can't quite fly straight, navigates poorly, etc.). Basically, he flies like a wounded duck.


and, of course, can't use physical attacks etc.

Except a ramming attack.....but then is stuck to what was rammed into.

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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:59 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
I would say that it makes it impossible to use a physical attack other than a ram style attack.

If your flight is winged flight or the like you will crash.

If your flight does NOT require physical movement to fly, then your just fine since the spell says nothing about obstructing vision, and if you don't need to move to fly then logically you can still fly.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:11 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
Mack wrote:
I'd allow the flight to continue with a little modification. If the flyer is wrapped up in a net, I'd give a few penalties (penalty to dodge, can't quite fly straight, navigates poorly, etc.). Basically, he flies like a wounded duck.


and, of course, can't use physical attacks etc.

Except a ramming attack.....but then is stuck to what was rammed into.


What about an energy blast that comes from like the eyes? Can they still attack with that?

_________________
Veni Vidi Vici
Una Salus Victis Nullam Sperare Salutem
Sic vis pacem, Para bellum
Audentes fortuna iuvat
O Tolmon Nika
Oderint Dum Metuant


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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:14 am
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
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SpiritInterface wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
Mack wrote:
I'd allow the flight to continue with a little modification. If the flyer is wrapped up in a net, I'd give a few penalties (penalty to dodge, can't quite fly straight, navigates poorly, etc.). Basically, he flies like a wounded duck.


and, of course, can't use physical attacks etc.

Except a ramming attack.....but then is stuck to what was rammed into.


What about an energy blast that comes from like the eyes? Can they still attack with that?


too lazy to check at the moment, but i'm pretty sure you can shoot the net from the outside and have zero chance of harming the people inside, it always hits the net. so, assuming my memory is correct, i'd say that pretty heavily implies no, because it suggests that the net only appears to have gaps in it, otherwise you could still shoot people inside the net.


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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:32 am
  

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SpiritInterface wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
Mack wrote:
I'd allow the flight to continue with a little modification. If the flyer is wrapped up in a net, I'd give a few penalties (penalty to dodge, can't quite fly straight, navigates poorly, etc.). Basically, he flies like a wounded duck.


and, of course, can't use physical attacks etc.

Except a ramming attack.....but then is stuck to what was rammed into.


What about an energy blast that comes from like the eyes? Can they still attack with that?

That is not a physical attack, so is not covered by the comments talking about physical attacks.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:28 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
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SpiritInterface wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
Mack wrote:
I'd allow the flight to continue with a little modification. If the flyer is wrapped up in a net, I'd give a few penalties (penalty to dodge, can't quite fly straight, navigates poorly, etc.). Basically, he flies like a wounded duck.


and, of course, can't use physical attacks etc.

Except a ramming attack.....but then is stuck to what was rammed into.


What about an energy blast that comes from like the eyes? Can they still attack with that?

The text says "Anyone caught in the net is helpless and unable to attack or defend." Rules as written, no attacks of any kind (physical or otherwise), because magic. Thus, no energy blasts from the eyes.

If that seems unreasonable, modify as makes sense to you. For example, assuming that one would be capable of flight, I'd also allow a ramming attack by a flyer, as that is just a function of flying into someone. However, I wouldn't rule that he is stuck to what was rammed into, because nothing in the magic net description indicates that it is adhesive in any way (that said, Magic Net of Adhesion sounds likes a great spell to make; a net that then captures people trying to free others from the net!).

Shark_Force wrote:
too lazy to check at the moment, but i'm pretty sure you can shoot the net from the outside and have zero chance of harming the people inside, it always hits the net. so, assuming my memory is correct, i'd say that pretty heavily implies no, because it suggests that the net only appears to have gaps in it, otherwise you could still shoot people inside the net.
RUE forces you to make a called shot to hit people inside without harming the net itself, so you can indeed shoot people inside it. To be honest, this spell could use a good reworking, because as written all you know is that using weapons capable of harming the net it takes 2 rounds, unaffected by how much damage is inflicted per attack. So apparently, anything from a Vibroblade to the SDF-1's main canon takes two rounds to cut through it.

Regarding the main question of can you fly, I'd note that in RUE it says that one can turn to mist or teleport to escape it if one makes a successful save versus magic. From that, one could extrapolate a house rule that a victim could then fly by making a save versus magic as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:47 pm
  

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dreicunan wrote:
The text says "Anyone caught in the net is helpless and unable to attack or defend." Rules as written, no attacks of any kind (physical or otherwise), because magic. Thus, no energy blasts from the eyes.


I find that to be an overly literal interpretation.

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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:01 pm
  

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Mack wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
The text says "Anyone caught in the net is helpless and unable to attack or defend." Rules as written, no attacks of any kind (physical or otherwise), because magic. Thus, no energy blasts from the eyes.


I find that to be an overly literal interpretation.


Well it's not his fault Palladium never takes these kinds of things into consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:37 pm
  

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The Beast wrote:
Mack wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
The text says "Anyone caught in the net is helpless and unable to attack or defend." Rules as written, no attacks of any kind (physical or otherwise), because magic. Thus, no energy blasts from the eyes.


I find that to be an overly literal interpretation.


Well it's not his fault Palladium never takes these kinds of things into consideration.


Sure they do. That's why GM's are encouraged to use their own common sense. Otherwise each spell would need several pages of rule clarifications.

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Love your neighbor.
It's Rifts. It doesn't have to make sense.
Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:39 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
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Mack wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Mack wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
The text says "Anyone caught in the net is helpless and unable to attack or defend." Rules as written, no attacks of any kind (physical or otherwise), because magic. Thus, no energy blasts from the eyes.


I find that to be an overly literal interpretation.


Well it's not his fault Palladium never takes these kinds of things into consideration.


Sure they do. That's why GM's are encouraged to use their own common sense. Otherwise each spell would need several pages of rule clarifications.

Well, Mack, the spell doesn't indicate that the net has any kind of special property like a carpet of adhesion or some other specific mechanism that would merely impede those caught in it in a specific way. It just says that anyone caught in the net is helpless and unable to attack. To me, that means that the simplest explanation is that the spell works "because magic" and that when it says that those caught in it are unable to attack, it means that they are unable to attack. Is that a literal interpretation? Sure. I fail to see how it is an "overly" literal interpretation, however. Any other interpretation would require that "unable" somehow mean "able"! My common sense tells me that "unable" means "unable" and not its antonym. 8)

Now, I have no problem with people deciding that they are going to house rule that some attacks are possible for someone caught in the net. In fact, given the update to the spell in RUE, I'd say that it would be very reasonable to rule that if you want to try to attack or defend you need to save versus magic to do so.

Actually, strictly speaking the spell doesn't ever state that it immobilizes that target, does it. We've been talking about flying. What about running, walking, crawling, or squirming? I can see arguments both ways on those.


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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:41 pm
  

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Monk

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The core concept of the Magic Net spell is that it create an effect that prevents the target from moving due to being caught in a magic web so they can't fight.
*cough*d7dwebspell*cough*

In other words, the spell prevents h2h combat.
Which does not include hero and psi powers from being used. Nor does it prevent magic-like powers from being used if they do not include macro-movements.
Whether the caught char can talk or not is up to individual GMs.

-------------------
Mack wrote:
snip...
Otherwise each spell would need several pages of rule clarifications.

Maybe the spell section of the RUE would of been a page longer if some spells wording was corrected, but not several pages per spell.

Using the Magic Net spell only a few words would need to be modified.

"Anyone caught in the net is physically helpless, and unable to to make physical attacks or to make defensive moves,"

What I would like is that PB go back and !Fix! small wording problems like this., that crop up all over the place.
With magic in Rifts PB had a couple chances with the RBoM and RUE. :roll:

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:43 pm
  

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dreicunan wrote:
Mack wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Mack wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
The text says "Anyone caught in the net is helpless and unable to attack or defend." Rules as written, no attacks of any kind (physical or otherwise), because magic. Thus, no energy blasts from the eyes.


I find that to be an overly literal interpretation.


Well it's not his fault Palladium never takes these kinds of things into consideration.


Sure they do. That's why GM's are encouraged to use their own common sense. Otherwise each spell would need several pages of rule clarifications.

Well, Mack, the spell doesn't indicate that the net has any kind of special property like a carpet of adhesion or some other specific mechanism that would merely impede those caught in it in a specific way. It just says that anyone caught in the net is helpless and unable to attack. To me, that means that the simplest explanation is that the spell works "because magic" and that when it says that those caught in it are unable to attack, it means that they are unable to attack. Is that a literal interpretation? Sure. I fail to see how it is an "overly" literal interpretation, however. Any other interpretation would require that "unable" somehow mean "able"! My common sense tells me that "unable" means "unable" and not its antonym. 8)

Now, I have no problem with people deciding that they are going to house rule that some attacks are possible for someone caught in the net. In fact, given the update to the spell in RUE, I'd say that it would be very reasonable to rule that if you want to try to attack or defend you need to save versus magic to do so.

Actually, strictly speaking the spell doesn't ever state that it immobilizes that target, does it. We've been talking about flying. What about running, walking, crawling, or squirming? I can see arguments both ways on those.


So a Magic Net prevents a Mind Melter from firing off a Mind Bolt? Nope, not buying that.

_________________
Love your neighbor.
It's Rifts. It doesn't have to make sense.
Know the facts. Know your opinion. Know the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:55 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Mack wrote:
dreicunan wrote:
Mack wrote:
The Beast wrote:
Well it's not his fault Palladium never takes these kinds of things into consideration.


Sure they do. That's why GM's are encouraged to use their own common sense. Otherwise each spell would need several pages of rule clarifications.

Well, Mack, the spell doesn't indicate that the net has any kind of special property like a carpet of adhesion or some other specific mechanism that would merely impede those caught in it in a specific way. It just says that anyone caught in the net is helpless and unable to attack. To me, that means that the simplest explanation is that the spell works "because magic" and that when it says that those caught in it are unable to attack, it means that they are unable to attack. Is that a literal interpretation? Sure. I fail to see how it is an "overly" literal interpretation, however. Any other interpretation would require that "unable" somehow mean "able"! My common sense tells me that "unable" means "unable" and not its antonym. 8)

Now, I have no problem with people deciding that they are going to house rule that some attacks are possible for someone caught in the net. In fact, given the update to the spell in RUE, I'd say that it would be very reasonable to rule that if you want to try to attack or defend you need to save versus magic to do so.

Actually, strictly speaking the spell doesn't ever state that it immobilizes that target, does it. We've been talking about flying. What about running, walking, crawling, or squirming? I can see arguments both ways on those.


So a Magic Net prevents a Mind Melter from firing off a Mind Bolt? Nope, not buying that.

RAW Yes it does
RAI No, I'm pretty sure it doesn't
The issue of course is that like most things in Palladium the descriptions are all in black and white absolutes. The RAW is set up with lots of "All, any, none, etc" and few "Most" let alone specifics... such as "Any action that requires moving the body"
After all... as written Magic Net doesn't technically stop you from moving, or juggling, or dancing, or casting spells (as long as they are not offensive or defensive). As others have said. The spell, as written, is not really viable and doesn't really do what it was intended to do. Thus it needs to be subjected to a Rule Zero Review to be really useable.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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 Post subject: Re: Magic net and flying
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:08 pm
  

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Hey, speaking of clearing things up, Mack do you know when the last time any of the erratas in the Cutting Room Floor were updated?


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