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 Post subject: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:31 pm
  

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The spell designates that the caster is capable of summoning "Lesser demons, sub-demons, Deevils, entities, demonic spirits and monsters."

My question is can it summon other "lesser" supernatural creatures? Like minor elementals? Spirits of Light (those are arguably "greater" supernatural creatures...)? Any other "lesser" supernatural creatures that may not fall under the categories mentioned (like "lesser" undead?).

The reason I ask is because "demonic spirits and monsters" can be pretty vague.

Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:55 pm
  

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Depends on your GM if you can just talk your way into being let to summon those other lesser SN beings, or if you'd have to create a spell variant that lets you summon those other lesser SN beings

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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:03 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Depends on your GM if you can just talk your way into being let to summon those other lesser SN beings, or if you'd have to create a spell variant that lets you summon those other lesser SN beings


It just seems a little on the bias side towards only summoning "evil" supernatural creatures is why I ask. I'm not interested in summoning a Boschala or a Devilkin... interested in summoning more good aligned creatures (or at the very least, impartial creatures...)

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Hotrod wrote:
I haven't noticed saints getting the bad end of the bargain at all. Sure, a lot of them die in pain and poverty. A lot of jerks die in agony, betrayal, and humiliation, often taking their own lives rather than having to face the consequences of what they've done.


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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:14 pm
  

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Unfortunately there are very few good aligned creatures to summon. You're right that's it's geared towards evil.

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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:30 pm
  

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There are a couple points I would make.

The first is that, sure you can summon just about any being that qualifies as "a Lesser Being" that your GM will allow you to summon.

The second point is that unless you are using a True Name to summon someone that you have previously made a deal with you are already way past "good", past selfish and have started down the well trod path into evil.

I say this because the spell reaches out, kidnaps an intelligent being from its home, brings it to you and enslaves it to your will binding it to do your every whim regardless of what it desires. And if you neglect to send it back before the spell ends, then it is stuck in this world with no way back to its home.
I am sorry, but that is hardly a 'good' act.
Which is why the spell is usually used by evil wizards to summon evil minions. Good guys don't usually tend to go for the whole "kidnapping people and raping their minds into compliance" thing.

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The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:33 pm
  

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Mack wrote:
Unfortunately there are very few good aligned creatures to summon. You're right that's it's geared towards evil.


Yeeeaaah. Just looking through conversion book 1 and dark conversions kinda cemented that for me.

Which is why I was trying to see if there was a reason why summoning creatures that are not inherently evil was possible. My mage wouldn't have a big issue using elementals or spirits of light for this spells. Or a Ki-Lin even. He'd even consider summoning were-creatures that don't prey upon humanoids (werebear, werejaguar, weretiger, for example would be fun summons. Especially the werecats, since they tend to be very playful. :) ).

Case in point, he'd be disinclined towards summoning evil creatures unless they had a very strict sense of honor (aberrant would be about as far as he would go.). But most don't qualify.

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Hotrod wrote:
I haven't noticed saints getting the bad end of the bargain at all. Sure, a lot of them die in pain and poverty. A lot of jerks die in agony, betrayal, and humiliation, often taking their own lives rather than having to face the consequences of what they've done.


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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:50 pm
  

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Johnathan wrote:
Mack wrote:
Unfortunately there are very few good aligned creatures to summon. You're right that's it's geared towards evil.


Yeeeaaah. Just looking through conversion book 1 and dark conversions kinda cemented that for me.

Which is why I was trying to see if there was a reason why summoning creatures that are not inherently evil was possible. My mage wouldn't have a big issue using elementals or spirits of light for this spells. Or a Ki-Lin even. He'd even consider summoning were-creatures that don't prey upon humanoids (werebear, werejaguar, weretiger, for example would be fun summons. Especially the werecats, since they tend to be very playful. :) ).

Case in point, he'd be disinclined towards summoning evil creatures unless they had a very strict sense of honor (aberrant would be about as far as he would go.). But most don't qualify.

You can talk to your GM to make some critters
Nightbane talks about 'creatures of light' of which the Guardians and Athanos are just two so there is plenty of room out there for other stuff to summon.
The GM might need to make some of it up though.
As I said before, one reason that there are not so many "good" summons... is that summoning is morally really hard to do as a good guy.

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:04 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
There are a couple points I would make.

The first is that, sure you can summon just about any being that qualifies as "a Lesser Being" that your GM will allow you to summon.

The second point is that unless you are using a True Name to summon someone that you have previously made a deal with you are already way past "good", past selfish and have started down the well trod path into evil.

I say this because the spell reaches out, kidnaps an intelligent being from its home, brings it to you and enslaves it to your will binding it to do your every whim regardless of what it desires. And if you neglect to send it back before the spell ends, then it is stuck in this world with no way back to its home.
I am sorry, but that is hardly a 'good' act.
Which is why the spell is usually used by evil wizards to summon evil minions. Good guys don't usually tend to go for the whole "kidnapping people and raping their minds into compliance" thing.


Bleak.

While I'm not really contesting your assessment of the spell, minus the "raping their minds into compliance" part. While it's true that the spell does essentially force whatever being it plucks out of heir native dimension into doing whatever the caster wants, that also doesn't mean the spell caster has to enforce his will, either.

I'm looking at this spell, especially in he way of summoning "good" supernatural creatures, as a way to bring in new allies and potential new "friends". I mean, it's a tad on the unusual side, and you did say it's usually used by evil wizards to summon evil minions. The counter point could also be said. Good wizards to summon good creatures. Not as minions but as allies.

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Hotrod wrote:
I haven't noticed saints getting the bad end of the bargain at all. Sure, a lot of them die in pain and poverty. A lot of jerks die in agony, betrayal, and humiliation, often taking their own lives rather than having to face the consequences of what they've done.


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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 3:36 pm
  

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Johnathan wrote:
eliakon wrote:
There are a couple points I would make.

The first is that, sure you can summon just about any being that qualifies as "a Lesser Being" that your GM will allow you to summon.

The second point is that unless you are using a True Name to summon someone that you have previously made a deal with you are already way past "good", past selfish and have started down the well trod path into evil.

I say this because the spell reaches out, kidnaps an intelligent being from its home, brings it to you and enslaves it to your will binding it to do your every whim regardless of what it desires. And if you neglect to send it back before the spell ends, then it is stuck in this world with no way back to its home.
I am sorry, but that is hardly a 'good' act.
Which is why the spell is usually used by evil wizards to summon evil minions. Good guys don't usually tend to go for the whole "kidnapping people and raping their minds into compliance" thing.


Bleak.

While I'm not really contesting your assessment of the spell, minus the "raping their minds into compliance" part. While it's true that the spell does essentially force whatever being it plucks out of heir native dimension into doing whatever the caster wants, that also doesn't mean the spell caster has to enforce his will, either.

I'm looking at this spell, especially in he way of summoning "good" supernatural creatures, as a way to bring in new allies and potential new "friends". I mean, it's a tad on the unusual side, and you did say it's usually used by evil wizards to summon evil minions. The counter point could also be said. Good wizards to summon good creatures. Not as minions but as allies.

The best bet there, from an alignment point of view would be for the GM to make up some races that want to be summoned to 'fight the good fight'
An example that springs to mind would be the Valkyrie from the Pantheons Book who would not mind being summoned to battle at the side of a Norse wizard...
...So if the GM has tomes that mention the names of some other races that can be used it opens up lots of possibilities of things to summon.

In my games for instance I have created a few races specifically for just this.
One of them is the Novella, who are basically the ghosts of slain Magic Girls (Yes, I run heavily anime influenced games, what's your point) as they are all about Hope, and Love, and Good, and Sweetness and Light... they want to be summoned from the Otherworld to fight again... as long as you are fighting evil and injustice.

A second race I had was the Kr'Tsk'Tsk'Tsk which are a vaguely humanoid race of, for want of a better term, supernatural androids. They are, as best can be determined some sort of weapon race left over from some unspeakably ancient elder war. They are single minded about war, honor, and 'completing the mission' though they are, to a one, unclear on what that mission is precisely. As such they long to be summoned from their homes to fight in other peoples wars. (though they make lousy servants or butlers, or cooks...)

Also one thing most people tend to forget is that most of the "good" lesser races? Those are not written up as monsters on purpose.
Because they are written up as Classes.
Guardian, Holy Terror, Pattern Warrior, Sea Titan, Sea Inquisitor, Magus, Keeper of the Desertt, Lyn-Srial, Amazon, Undead Slayer, Tattoo Man, Sasquatch...I could keep going for a long time here.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:30 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
The best bet there, from an alignment point of view would be for the GM to make up some races that want to be summoned to 'fight the good fight'
An example that springs to mind would be the Valkyrie from the Pantheons Book who would not mind being summoned to battle at the side of a Norse wizard...
...So if the GM has tomes that mention the names of some other races that can be used it opens up lots of possibilities of things to summon.

In my games for instance I have created a few races specifically for just this.
One of them is the Novella, who are basically the ghosts of slain Magic Girls (Yes, I run heavily anime influenced games, what's your point) as they are all about Hope, and Love, and Good, and Sweetness and Light... they want to be summoned from the Otherworld to fight again... as long as you are fighting evil and injustice.

A second race I had was the Kr'Tsk'Tsk'Tsk which are a vaguely humanoid race of, for want of a better term, supernatural androids. They are, as best can be determined some sort of weapon race left over from some unspeakably ancient elder war. They are single minded about war, honor, and 'completing the mission' though they are, to a one, unclear on what that mission is precisely. As such they long to be summoned from their homes to fight in other peoples wars. (though they make lousy servants or butlers, or cooks...)

Also one thing most people tend to forget is that most of the "good" lesser races? Those are not written up as monsters on purpose.
Because they are written up as Classes.
Guardian, Holy Terror, Pattern Warrior, Sea Titan, Sea Inquisitor, Magus, Keeper of the Desertt, Lyn-Srial, Amazon, Undead Slayer, Tattoo Man, Sasquatch...I could keep going for a long time here.



... that's actually very creative usage. Magical Anime Girls and defunct Combat Androids. Brilliant!

Also, good on you for picking out other supernatural forces of good! Holy Terror, Undead Slayers and Amazons... let the negotiations begin!

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Hotrod wrote:
I haven't noticed saints getting the bad end of the bargain at all. Sure, a lot of them die in pain and poverty. A lot of jerks die in agony, betrayal, and humiliation, often taking their own lives rather than having to face the consequences of what they've done.


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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 7:01 pm
  

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OR, you know, you could just be evil, summon and bind good beings, and order them to not reveal this, and act as if they wilfully allied with you, and pretend to be good...

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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 3:39 pm
  

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Or... you could be a good character who uses evil creatures for good purposes. Such as sending evil creatures to destroy other menaces. You'd have to real careful not to lose control, though.

One could make an argument that such an approach is turning an evil minion into a force for good, and is thus OK for a good character.

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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 6:18 pm
  

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Mack wrote:
Or... you could be a good character who uses evil creatures for good purposes. Such as sending evil creatures to destroy other menaces. You'd have to real careful not to lose control, though.

One could make an argument that such an approach is turning an evil minion into a force for good, and is thus OK for a good character.

You can try...
...but that sounds like a quick route to a Fall.
It is easy to say first say "the ends justify the means"
And then "I know what is best"
And then "Don't worry, I know what I'm doing. Trust me."
And then you say something about "eggs" and "omelets"
...and before you know it your full a blown Aberrant anti-hero.

As I said before. It is going to be really hard to use spells that are predicated on kidnapping and enslaving the unwilling and remain good for very long. At best you, might, be able to justify a particularly twisted version of Unprincipled. But most likely your looking at Anarchist or lower.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 6:56 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Mack wrote:
Or... you could be a good character who uses evil creatures for good purposes. Such as sending evil creatures to destroy other menaces. You'd have to real careful not to lose control, though.

One could make an argument that such an approach is turning an evil minion into a force for good, and is thus OK for a good character.

You can try...
...but that sounds like a quick route to a Fall.
It is easy to say first say "the ends justify the means"
And then "I know what is best"
And then "Don't worry, I know what I'm doing. Trust me."
And then you say something about "eggs" and "omelets"
...and before you know it your full a blown Aberrant anti-hero.

As I said before. It is going to be really hard to use spells that are predicated on kidnapping and enslaving the unwilling and remain good for very long. At best you, might, be able to justify a particularly twisted version of Unprincipled. But most likely your looking at Anarchist or lower.


I can see the logic in your assessment. Truly I can. Your first statement seems to fall within "evil" or anarchist where Miscreant clearly states that "The end always justifies the means".

Maybe I've just been fortunate to have good GMs. Or, at the very least, GMs who will present their players with the opportunity to realize they're about to engage in an act or behavior that is contradictory to their alignment and they risk an alignment shift if they continue.

My current GM is religious about using the phrase, "Are you sure?"

When he says this it's a realization moment for all of us, as his players, that we might need to take a step back and evaluate what our characters are about to do because, chances are, better than not, it means something bad is about to happen to our characters if we continue down the current path. Usually, it means one of two things. Either our characters are about to engage in an act that will, more likely than not, result in their death. Or they're about to do something that is either very stupid or goes against their alignment.

I'd say, it's up to the character being played just how they use this spell, case in point.

My character, for example, would use the spell in an attempt to "recruit" allies. Summoning a "good" or "indifferent" supernatural creature and attempt to negotiate with them in regards to something that isn't "mind raping" or "enslavement" but more like a mutual beneficial agreement between the two. If the creature won't agree or can't agree. He just sends them back and tries again later when he has the P.P.E. to do so.

However, if the creature DOES agree, he's gained an ally he can call upon if needed.

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Hotrod wrote:
I haven't noticed saints getting the bad end of the bargain at all. Sure, a lot of them die in pain and poverty. A lot of jerks die in agony, betrayal, and humiliation, often taking their own lives rather than having to face the consequences of what they've done.


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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 7:18 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Mack wrote:
Or... you could be a good character who uses evil creatures for good purposes. Such as sending evil creatures to destroy other menaces. You'd have to real careful not to lose control, though.

One could make an argument that such an approach is turning an evil minion into a force for good, and is thus OK for a good character.

You can try...
...but that sounds like a quick route to a Fall.
It is easy to say first say "the ends justify the means"
And then "I know what is best"
And then "Don't worry, I know what I'm doing. Trust me."
And then you say something about "eggs" and "omelets"
...and before you know it your full a blown Aberrant anti-hero.

As I said before. It is going to be really hard to use spells that are predicated on kidnapping and enslaving the unwilling and remain good for very long. At best you, might, be able to justify a particularly twisted version of Unprincipled. But most likely your looking at Anarchist or lower.


I completely agree that it's a slippery slope, and fraught with peril for the mage. That's why I used the phrase "one could make an argument." I can see a character talking himself into it, or trying to justify his actions, despite the obvious problems.

A few months ago I toyed around with a the idea of a good Shifter who had one or two good minions. But I found the character would need a somewhat improbable backstory to make it really work. My solution was that he made a pact with a God of Magic for extra magic knowledge (which is an option in RUE) but that the being was a God of Light. Whenever the Shifter summoned a creature, the God 'guided' the process to ensure that a good minion in need of rescue was reached. After the summoning period ended, the minion would ask to remain with the Shifter instead of being sent back to it's dreaded home. The minion would have to be something like a good aligned Gargolyte who was an outcast or heavily discriminated against by his own people.

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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 4:56 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
There are a couple points I would make.

The first is that, sure you can summon just about any being that qualifies as "a Lesser Being" that your GM will allow you to summon.

The second point is that unless you are using a True Name to summon someone that you have previously made a deal with you are already way past "good", past selfish and have started down the well trod path into evil.

I say this because the spell reaches out, kidnaps an intelligent being from its home, brings it to you and enslaves it to your will binding it to do your every whim regardless of what it desires. And if you neglect to send it back before the spell ends, then it is stuck in this world with no way back to its home.
I am sorry, but that is hardly a 'good' act.
Which is why the spell is usually used by evil wizards to summon evil minions. Good guys don't usually tend to go for the whole "kidnapping people and raping their minds into compliance" thing.
It depends actually on how the summoner views evil. He may see evil creatures as less than himself and think he is perfectly justified in making an evil creature perform beneficial acts for the betterment of mankind. Which I suppose would make him aberrant, so nevermind. I'll shut up now.

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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:01 pm
  

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Johnathan wrote:
While I'm not really contesting your assessment of the spell, minus the "raping their minds into compliance" part. While it's true that the spell does essentially force whatever being it plucks out of heir native dimension into doing whatever the caster wants, that also doesn't mean the spell caster has to enforce his will, either.

I'm looking at this spell, especially in he way of summoning "good" supernatural creatures, as a way to bring in new allies and potential new "friends". I mean, it's a tad on the unusual side, and you did say it's usually used by evil wizards to summon evil minions. The counter point could also be said. Good wizards to summon good creatures. Not as minions but as allies.
It's not a "friendly act" to magically summon someone against their will.

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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:41 pm
  

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Johnathan wrote:
The spell designates that the caster is capable of summoning "Lesser demons, sub-demons, Deevils,

That suspciously does not designate "lesser" Deevils...

But then again, "Deevil" is a specific lesser demon from "Another Horde of Demons" who live in Dyval (Dyvalians) so it might just mean no Devilkins or Fiends.


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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:49 am
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Johnathan wrote:
The spell designates that the caster is capable of summoning "Lesser demons, sub-demons, Deevils,

That suspciously does not designate "lesser" Deevils...

But then again, "Deevil" is a specific lesser demon from "Another Horde of Demons" who live in Dyval (Dyvalians) so it might just mean no Devilkins or Fiends.


I would be skeptical of that interpretation, especially as earlier versions of the game called Deevils devils, and I wouldn't be terribly surprised by a find and replace.

I'd say Summon Lesser Being works on any lesser demon or deevil type... including regular fiends, but not Archfiends, which are greater.

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 Post subject: Re: Summon Lesser Being
Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:51 pm
  

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The 13th level spell description certainly did get amended between Rifts 189 and Book of Magic 149. Devils wasn't present in the original so I don't think a find-and-replace was done.

The "lesser" is only in reference to "demons though, which notably has a lowercase D. There isn't exactly any "lesser sub-demons".

The uppercase D in Deevils is kinda suspicious. If it meant Devilkins/Fiends too then why not a lowercase D like demons got?


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