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Unread postPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:25 pm
  

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Monk

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Being able to cast magic while taking melee actions (in other words 'while fighting or moving about').

Would this be a …
…magic proficiency?
…magic mastery ability?
…class ability?
…a skill/WP?
…Martial Arts Ability/power?

My 1st thoughts were that it would b a Magic Prof. and them my mind brainstormed and is asking y'all on your thoughts.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:32 pm
  

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Comment: The silent thief of Rozrehxeson.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Being able to cast magic while taking melee actions (in other words 'while fighting or moving about').

Would this be a …
…magic proficiency?
…magic mastery ability?
…class ability?
…a skill/WP?
…Martial Arts Ability/power?

My 1st thoughts were that it would b a Magic Prof. and them my mind brainstormed and is asking y'all on your thoughts.

I don't understand how the topic subject "Which class is her homeroom" relates to the question, but my answer to your question would be "A class ability." I feel being able to do spells while also engage in moving and/or melee actions is a powerful ability best restricted to a class specifically built around it.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:43 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Glistam wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Being able to cast magic while taking melee actions (in other words 'while fighting or moving about').

Would this be a …
…magic proficiency?
…magic mastery ability?
…class ability?
…a skill/WP?
…Martial Arts Ability/power?

My 1st thoughts were that it would b a Magic Prof. and them my mind brainstormed and is asking y'all on your thoughts.

I don't understand how the topic subject "Which class is her homeroom" relates to the question, but my answer to your question would be "A class ability." I feel being able to do spells while also engage in moving and/or melee actions is a powerful ability best restricted to a class specifically built around it.

I would agree with Glistam here while making the additional comment that this is an ability that basically lets them fundamentally change how magic works.
As such they will be 'buying off' much of the 'limitations' on magic as well as making it much harder to identify them as a mage (if they are casting spells with out visible components it might be impossible to locate them in a battle!)
As such I would say 100% this would need to be a new class with a special ability.

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:12 pm
  

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I'd lean towards a class ability, though could be argued to Martial Art form.

I assume you mean something along the lines of "While she punched, she also cast Blinding Flash on her victim, doing punch damage plus forcing a save v. magic to avoid blindness?" 'Cause then I'm definitely thinking class ability, or Martial Art special ability... sort of like MC's Gun Fu.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:46 am
  

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Knight

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Quote:
I don't understand how the topic subject "Which class is her homeroom" relates to the question

I think it isn't supposed to, its to get our attention.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Being able to cast magic while taking melee actions (in other words 'while fighting or moving about').

Would this be a …
…magic proficiency?
…magic mastery ability?
…class ability?
…a skill/WP?
…Martial Arts Ability/power?

My 1st thoughts were that it would b a Magic Prof. and them my mind brainstormed and is asking y'all on your thoughts.

Since Class ability's tend to come in the way of highly restricted skills and abilities your list might be overly redundant.

I would say though that it would have to be a Class Ability. However, since magic can include gestures, one could argue that they could work those gestures into their combat maneuvers.

EDIT: for clarity


Last edited by ShadowLogan on Wed May 17, 2017 8:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 10:47 am
  

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Monk

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Why include both 'Skill/WP' and 'class ability' as options? They are different levels of restrictions on who can have it. I just wrote down the different types of clasifications I could rememebr to give all the options so you wouldn't have to remember them on your own.
The only ones I missed was Character modification (Like going to a specific school or going through merc training at merc town……etc….to get a bonus) and Special Human Trait (like in the Lonestar book and the RT books.)

So the revised list would be….
Would this be a …
…magic proficiency?
…magic mastery ability?
…class ability?
…a skill/WP?
…Martial Arts Ability/power?
…Special Human Ability?
…Char background modification?


--------
ShadowLogan wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand how the topic subject "Which class is her homeroom" relates to the question

I think it isn't supposed to, its to get our attention.

Yep.
And I didn't quite know how to phrase the question at that moment into a topic title phrase. ;)

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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Wed May 17, 2017 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 11:15 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
snip... However since magic includes gestures one could argue that they could work those gestures into their combat maneuvers.

Where does it say that gestures are needed?
The texts I remember say that everything is showmanship other then the words being said. And those spells that indicate they need a 'pointing' gesture to aim.
-----

Why include both 'Skill/WP' and 'class ability' as options? They are different levels of restrictions on who can have it. I just wrote down the different types of clasifications I could rememebr to give all the options so you wouldn't have to remember them on your own.
The only ones I missed was Character modification (Like going to a specific school or going through merc training at merc town……etc….to get a bonus) and Special Human Trait (like in the Lonestar book and the RT books.)

So the revised list would be….
Would this be a …
…magic proficiency?
…magic mastery ability?
…class ability?
…a skill/WP?
…Martial Arts Ability/power?
…Special Human Ability?
…Char background modification?


--------
ShadowLogan wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand how the topic subject "Which class is her homeroom" relates to the question

I think it isn't supposed to, its to get our attention.

Yep.
And I didn't quite know how to phrase the question at that moment into a topic title phrase. ;)


Concur with the gestures comment. Magic doesn't require gestures merely the spoken words of power. Gestures are strictly for show, technically speaking. The truth is, I've played it (this is personally, so it's not really a rule, just fun character development) where my mages, in their earlier levels, DID use hand gestures as a way to help mold the magic energies they were channeling. As my character leveled up though, spell casting would become easier and easier to the point where gestures were no longer required to cast magic.

However, that's not canon. It's strictly for fun and theatrics.

More to the point of this post though. It could technically be a multitude of options all rolled into one.

How do I figure that? Let me explain.

Casting magic requires a lot of practice, skill, mental focus, discipline and willpower. These are all fundamental premises when it comes to the principles of magic. So much so, that most mages can't move/dodge/parry/speak/much of anything while they're in the process of casting spells. This was somewhat alleviated when lower level magic required only one action to cast. It doesn't do much to alleviate higher levels spells requiring more than one action.

... but I digress...

The point is. These are the reasons why mages can't really do much while in the middle of casting a spell.

So let's go down the list:
Magic proficiency: Eeeeh. That's Rifter material which, technically isn't "official".
Magic Mastery Ability: This is also Rifter material, unfortunately. However, I can definitely see this being a means to an end here. Burst Casting allows mages to cast spells in one action, right? You just gotta fork up the extra PPE to pull it off, correct?
Class Ability: Canonically? Most. Definitely. Absolutely. Yes. I'd use the Magi's "One with Mind" as a jumping off point for this. One of the things in that class Ability is that Magi "Can't be distracted". They can maintain their focus even when all hell is breakig loose around them and not so much as blink an eye. This also means (at least my GM has ruled it as such in accordance with his interpretation of the class ability) that Magi can get shot/punch/stabbed/kicked/blasted/grenaded/etc. mid-spell and you can choose to ignore it and continue the spell (assuming you don't die doing so...), without interruption. It also means that spells/psionics/tactics that interrupt the mage or distract them don't work/don't work well (half as effective, if anything even happens at all). This has been a butt saver AND a thorn in our side on more than a few occasions, each. So again, most definitely "Yes".
WP/Skill: Eh...? Stand alone? No. In tandem with another option? Possibility.
Martial Arts Ability/Power: Same as WP/Skill. Stand alone? No. Maybe as a part of an Exclusive Martial Atra form focused entirely on magic? Probably. (What's it called Acromi?)
Special Human Ability: Why does it have to be human? How about a special Racial Ability? Possibility. There are races out there who are deeply immersed in Magic, so much so that it is a fundamental principle in their culture. Phase Worlds "Alien Creation" table even has this as an option. Where using magic for that race is like flipping a light switch. I can see that working in this case. That magic is just so "natural" for them, it's like second nature.
Char Background modification: As with some of the others. I'd go with this having potential. It also has the potential of being abused. It would require a lot of work with ones GM in order to build a good backstory to reflect all the whos/whats/wheres/whens/hows/whys that this character came to acquire what would, under normal circumstances, be considered something exceptionally rare, if not flat out unique (barring circumstances already listed above).

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:00 pm
  

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Knight

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drewkitty~..~ wrote:
Where does it say that gestures are needed?
The texts I remember say that everything is showmanship other then the words being said. And those spells that indicate they need a 'pointing' gesture to aim.

I never said that gestures are needed, only that they are a part of casting magic as RUE indicates on pg189 (Step 6: Casting Spells #2: "Hand gestures are also usually part of the spell casting process that help focus and direct the mystic energy"). I will admit it could just be RUE-setting as I couldn't find a similar statement in RMB or PF2E with a quick glance.


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:01 pm
  

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Monk

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to Johnathan,

Magic Prof. are from the Through the Glass Darkly book.

And you would have it a class ability. noted.
-------------

*tags ShadowL's PMs*

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 12:22 pm
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
to Johnathan,

Magic Prof. are from the Through the Glass Darkly book.

And you would have it a class ability. noted.
-------------

*tags ShadowL's PMs*


You mean I have to dust off my Nightbane books...? Crud... where did I put my storage key? :shock: :mrgreen:

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Hotrod wrote:
I haven't noticed saints getting the bad end of the bargain at all. Sure, a lot of them die in pain and poverty. A lot of jerks die in agony, betrayal, and humiliation, often taking their own lives rather than having to face the consequences of what they've done.


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:44 pm
  

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Monk

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Johnathan wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
to Johnathan,

Magic Prof. are from the Through the Glass Darkly book.

And you would have it a class ability. noted.
-------------

*tags ShadowL's PMs*


You mean I have to dust off my Nightbane books...? Crud... where did I put my storage key? :shock: :mrgreen:

nope, you don't 'have to'….

you could just trust me about where the canon text is,
…or you could get the PDF of that book so it is on your computer. :angel:

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:55 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Johnathan wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
to Johnathan,

Magic Prof. are from the Through the Glass Darkly book.

And you would have it a class ability. noted.
-------------

*tags ShadowL's PMs*


You mean I have to dust off my Nightbane books...? Crud... where did I put my storage key? :shock: :mrgreen:

The original Magic Proficiency system at least is from there.
Needless to say the stuff in the Rifter is "the same, but different"
Sort of like... well most everything else in the Rifter. :lol:

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:09 pm
  

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Greetings and Salutations. I'd vote for a Martial Arts Ability, but it would have to be a martial art based around magic (so not simply any martial art form would suffice). Palladium doesn't have any officially, so that would be a problem. I once made a few Hand to Hand styles based around magic ( http://www.prysus.com/hth_spell_slinger.htm has an ability something like of which you speak ), though I often think about how I might do it differently if I were to try it again (conceptually similar, just tweaked to be a little more flexible).

I think a Magic Proficiency could work, but they've never really gotten into them enough to favor that option.
I honestly have no clue what Magic Mastery is.
Class Ability can work, but as I like having magical Hand to Hand forms, I'd be more inclined to just have a class that has one of those forms as their default. The same way many classes steal/mimic/copy magic spells from other classes, I think the same would happen here. If a class had that ability, others would work on reverse engineering it so they could use it too.
A simple W.P. would be too easy and without enough cost, in my opinion. With something like a W.P., the cost and the effect would almost make it too good to NOT pick up by every spell caster (it's the equivalent of Boxing, which everyone loves nabbing for the extra Attack Per Melee, along with other benefits). That's why I tend to favor things like a hand to hand, because those force the character to make more of a path (they won't be as good in a fist-fight as if, say, they picked Hand to Hand: Expert) and there's more of a path choice (along with skill cost).
I wouldn't be opposed to a special racial ability, if the race was a Creature of Magic or something similar. However, I don't think I'd like it as a simple human (or other mortal) trait (races such as Elves and/or Danzi which are pseudo-Creatures of Magic maybe).
As for character background modification, meh, I see this basically as the justification for the Magic Proficiency or the hand to hand form or whatever else. This shouldn't warrant an ability in and of itself, in my opinion.

That's my thoughts on the matter. Hope some of them help. Farewell and safe journeys.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 9:44 pm
  

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the two things that would make the most work for me if I wrote it up are the two most popular choices. ugg

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:47 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
the two things that would make the most work for me if I wrote it up are the two most popular choices. ugg


The problem is, what you're proposing is a VERY potent ability... if I read you right, it's essentially a free action.

If you want to boil it down to a Magic Proficiency, I would have that proficiency be VERY specific and limited. Like, with one MP you can learn to use Blinding Flash as part of a physical attack. With another, you can learn to use Thunderclap. Using Increase Weight is a third. I'd require a minimum level (which increases with the level of the spell), impose a PPE penalty, and require a minimum level of Hand to Hand training (at least Expert).

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:02 am
  

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Actually I've been thinking more of modeling it more like a N&S WP paired weapons or Weapons Kata. Where the char has only one spell that he/she can do while fighting. And to do the same with another spell they would have to get another <whatever>.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Wed May 17, 2017 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 11:16 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Actually I've been thinking more of modeling it more like a N&S WP paired weapons or Weapons Kata. Where the char has only one spell that he/she can do while fighting. And to get another <whatever> to be able to do the same with another spell.


More or less my idea, yeah. Let's try this.

Magic Proficiency: Spelling Strike
The character has received basic instruction in combining magic with melee attacks. Choose a single melee attack with which the character is familiar; once the character likewise has Magic Proficiency: Melee Magic, they may use that spell with that strike as a single action. Doing so, however, inflicts a -2 on the attack roll and denies the character automatic parry for the round. Prerequisite: Hand to Hand Expert, Martial Arts, or Assassin. If the Spelling Strike involves a weapon, then the Weapon Proficiency must also be possessed.

Magic Proficiency: Melee Magic
The character has received basic instruction in combining melee attacks with magic. Choose a single spell of 3rd level or less that the character knows. Once the character likewise has Magic Proficiency: Spelling Strike, they may use that spell with that strike in a single action. Doing so, however, increases the cost of the spell by 5 PPE. Prerequisite: 3rd level spellcaster.

With this, you can mix and match. I might learn Spelling Strike initially with my dagger proficiency, and concentrate on getting several different Melee Magic proficiencies as time goes on, expanding my repertoire of spells I can cast with my dagger. However, I might want to pick up Spelling Strike with the Staff at a higher level, since I found that neat magical staff. Picking up Spelling Strike for a new weapon would give me access to all of my Melee Magic. It becomes a bit of a skill tax... I have to pay for premium martial arts training, AND weapon proficiencies, AND magic weapon use, AND each spell individually.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 12:44 pm
  

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I would of said 'melee fighting' instead of 'melee attacks'. this way they are not limited to just attacking when casting a spell too. (i.o.w.: being able to parry/dodge something while casting a spell as well.)

I didn't think of making the h2hs being a prereq. Good idea. this should be in both.

Was thinking in the direction that getting this prof. (or <whatever>) and you could cast a single spell, picked when gaining the prof., while melee fighting.
Not learning how to combine spell-casting with just one combat move.

Sort of like the Idea the battle magus is built around,( but does not have a 'fight and cast' ability to match,) of a Battle Mage that melee fights while also casting magic in the middle of the fight.


I will have to think on this.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:32 pm
  

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Originally, I was going to link it to a single, unarmed, attack... so you could link your spellcasting to Karate Kicks or Knife Hand Punch or whatever. Then I figured it should also be available to weapon use, so I went with melee attacks... you pick one kind of attack that you can do this with, even if it's as broad as "long sword".

By making it two separate but linked proficiencies, you get a bit of synergy. Since Melee Magic requires a 3rd level caster, you can't start taking that until later, but you might sink skills into Spelling Strike at 1st level (when you've got sufficient training), then pick up Melee Magic later.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:11 pm
  

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Comment: The silent thief of Rozrehxeson.
This still feels like an ability that should be limited to a specific class or group of classes. Giving them "mix and match" options like what's being discussed seems like a cool way to handle it.

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Unread postPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 2:56 pm
  

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Monk

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My thoughts...
The char has to pick a weapon (or opened handed) to pair the spell casting as a ""fighting style"" that allows them to pair the casting & melee fighting. The weapon chosen have to be one of the weapon types detailed on pages 204-209 of the NB MB (268&269 PF2 MB, 350&351 HU2 MB). In other words they have to pick a type of weapon not just a WP class of weapons. Ancient weapons only and the paired spell action cannot be paired with ranged attacks.
I would keep the WP & h2h prereq. and the -2 penalty for the melee action
[As in, if they have picked a long sword to pair their spell casting with, they would only be able to melee fight (S/P/D/etc….) & cast magic when using a long sword.]

Selecting this magic prof. multiple times only lets the char use a another weapon type that with paired melee-spell actions ability. The weapon(s) are still selected at the type of weapon level.
(Much like how taking multiple language skills lets the char know more then one language. And like how when taking the chinese lang. the player needs to pick which dialect the char knows. Cantonese, Mandarin, etc...)

Commentary: If the weapon selected is a longsword, the magic prof. is unusable with any other type of sword. It has to be a longsword.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


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Unread postPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 10:44 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10329
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
I think one thing here is that before building this the player and GM will have to decide what they are wanting out of this.
If your looking for a Hong Kong action flick with every wizard to also be a martial artist zipping around tossing fireballs in between kicks and delivering deadly spells with their <very long named attack here> touches you will be building something totally different than if you want a few rare dedicated combat wizards who can routinely use a handful of well drilled and favored spells in with their specialized weapon skill. And both will be different than if you want to make an anime where you have wizards who run around with giant weapons and toss off spells during the big parry scene after the dramatic taunts and language.

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The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:39 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 3612
Glistam wrote:
I don't understand how the topic subject "Which class is her homeroom" relates to the question

I'm similarly confused by this. I was wondering if it might be the translated title of a manga or something.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:06 pm
  

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Monk

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 15221
Location: Eastvale, calif
Axelmania wrote:
Glistam wrote:
I don't understand how the topic subject "Which class is her homeroom" relates to the question

I'm similarly confused by this. I was wondering if it might be the translated title of a manga or something.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Quote:
I don't understand how the topic subject "Which class is her homeroom" relates to the question

I think it isn't supposed to, its to get our attention.

*pulls back the curtain for those that need it*

To explain things, Yes, it does relate (distantly) to the question. If you think of each of the different type of formats/definitions the ""ability"" would fall into would be a different homeroom.

And to gain people's attention due to the apparent 'non-sequetor' style of the wording.

_________________
Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

My Artwork


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:16 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 3612
Anyway... couldn't you do something like this using a Mystic Bestowed from HU and selecting the Multi-Tasking minor super ability from Powers Unlimited?


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