Sense Magic vs SBeings/CreaturesOfM

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Axelmania
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Sense Magic vs SBeings/CreaturesOfM

Unread post by Axelmania »

It's always a treat to be re-reading a book you've had a long time with more of a nit-picking attention to detail and notice stuff.

I always prefer my 90s books so I haven't checked if Ultimate/Revised mage any changes here.

The sensitive psi of Sense Magic (Rifts page 123) talks about magic energy, but I sorta overlooked it because I never got to play much of an investigative game and when that stuff came up it was usually Hound/Stalker territory.

It does mention you can pinpoint a particular person (or place/room/object) and even invisible "magical supernatural creatures" can still be approximated to a general area.

What made me think more about this power was this blurb in the 'Vampires Versus Psionics' section on page 34 of Vampire Kingdoms. Under "Psionics that affect Vampires" the end of the first paragraph:
Sense magic will not indicate a vampire, they are not considered creatures of magic.


The implication here is that SM will indicate things which are considered creatures of magic. So for example it would let me know that there is a Dragon (page 37) Flooper (page 132) and maybe Oltec (page 150 says 'magic creatures' not 'creatures of magic', so it might be different) or an Elf (Atlantis 35) or Changeling (as of PF2)

Knowing that SM can indicate a CoM doesn't necessarily indicate the context of WHEN or HOW it indicates them though. While men of magic are indicated as being creatures of magic (Conversion Book 43) the Sense Magic power says in parenthesis at the end "users of magic do not radiate magic energies until they call upon them".

That may only apply to practitioners of magic who are not creatures of magic though (like women of magic) because otherwise, there would be a lot of Creatures of Magic who are never sensed by Sense Magic because they don't actually call upon any magic abilities. But creatures like Bug Bears (Conversion Book 111) mention under Magic "None, other than natural abilities. Also radiates strong magic and has a magic aura similar to a brownie"

These might be 2 separate things. Maybe a Brownie's aura alone isn't vulnerable to Sense Magic, perhaps the 'radiates strong' is a BugBear-exclusive trait overlapped on top of a Brownie-ish aura so SM senses them but not Brownies?

Getting back to vampires, I figure that while they are supernatural creatures, they are not normally 'magical supernatural creatures'. I think the exception would be vampires who were previously of a Practitioner of Magic OCC, such as Esteban Morocco (page 140). Since he is both male and a Practitioner of Magic that should make him a Man of Magic and thus a Creature of Magic, meaning he is both CoM+Supernatural Being like dragons are (page 37).

Does anyone know any other CoM/Supernatural combines like dragons? I'm interested in knowing what races can hurt vampires with unarmed attacks. I used to assume anyone with supernatural PS could, but I think I jumped to that conclusion without proof. Although perhaps a later book like Nightbane, VKrevised or Rifts Vampires changed that and expanded what could threaten them?

I would assume that Nightbane could for example hurt a vampire with a punch, and it probably says that somewhere, but I don't know if that's due to supernatural strength or because a Nightbane in Morphis is considered a Creature of Magic / Supernatural Being combination like a dragon is.
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Re: Sense Magic vs SBeings/CreaturesOfM

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Vampire Kingdoms Origional is pretty outdated rules wise. Revidsed let anything with supernatural strength hurt them while eliminating the CoM reqirement, while RUE expanded sense magic past 1E to sense CoM as well.
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Re: Sense Magic vs SBeings/CreaturesOfM

Unread post by say652 »

Would the Psi-Ghost presence sense detect them?
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Re: Sense Magic vs SBeings/CreaturesOfM

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Axelmania wrote:snip...
It does mention you can pinpoint a particular person (or place/room/object) and even invisible "magical supernatural creatures" can still be approximated to a general area.

The Psi Sense Magic can track to a area are:
The invisible,
The Magical,
The supernatural.
They can be creatures or objects.
(Commas are important.)
------
The basic Presence Sense will detect vampires. They are ether a SN being or a 'other monstrous life form'.
But then again PS can also sense humans (mundanes) too. If at less accuracy.

The racial power of the clan of humans that make up the Psi-Ghosts…..so long as the vamp is sentient, yes. Masters, yes. Secondary, yes. wild, maybe…depends on the GM.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Sense Magic vs SBeings/CreaturesOfM

Unread post by Axelmania »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Vampire Kingdoms Origional is pretty outdated rules wise. Revidsed let anything with supernatural strength hurt them while eliminating the CoM reqirement

Page 80 mentions "mortal beings with the super ability of Supernatural PS" being able to hurt them...

But couldn't you take that as a reference to the major super power from HU as opposed to all of the various means of acquiring supernatural PS? Including all the D-Bees who inexplicably start off with it?

The more assertive statement seems to be at the end of it...

"creatures of magic who have Supernatural Strength do full damage, just like anyone else with Supernatural PS"

Given the discussion of mortals and creatures of magic explicitly called non supernatural (including dragons, strangely, which contradicts the original VK) the heading "Supernatural Beings" seems misleading for this section.

Since there's still nothing contradicting the idea that practitioners of magic are creatures of magic (still present on CBRp43, and men was changed to practitioners so it was left in intentionally), perhaps this means that Shifters and TWs and co can do 1/2 damage to a vampire's HP with punches?

Could help explain more reasons why vamps could be hesitant to target mages, since even if they ran out of PPE they could still be a threat.

It would also be nice to know that you could harm a vampire with body flips while keeping them detained.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:RUE expanded sense magic past 1E to sense CoM as well.

Aside from...
    "specific room or corner" > "specific room or area"
    "does not include psychic powers" > "does not include psionic influences"
    "users of magic" > "human users of magic"
I'm having trouble noticing any other changes between RMB 123 and RUE 176. None that appear to pertain to Creatures of Magic anyway, unlike VK's implication.

say652 wrote:Would the Psi-Ghost presence sense detect them?

WB12p64 I think even a wild vampire would qualify as a sentient/intelligent presence, but while they would know the number and precise location of individuals, I don't think that alone would tell them the nature of the individuals. A Psi-Ghost starts with 5 sensitive or physical of choice so I think they'd need to get Sense Evil or Sense Magic to know more about these presences.

They might even select the non-advanced Presence Sense since that does allow you to tell if there is a supernatural or magic creature around. In a way, the Psi-Ghost's advanced ability has a downside in its broadness since it doesn't mention discerning these characteristics.
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Re: Sense Magic vs SBeings/CreaturesOfM

Unread post by eliakon »

Axelmania wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Vampire Kingdoms Origional is pretty outdated rules wise. Revidsed let anything with supernatural strength hurt them while eliminating the CoM reqirement

Page 80 mentions "mortal beings with the super ability of Supernatural PS" being able to hurt them...

But couldn't you take that as a reference to the major super power from HU as opposed to all of the various means of acquiring supernatural PS? Including all the D-Bees who inexplicably start off with it?

The more assertive statement seems to be at the end of it...

"creatures of magic who have Supernatural Strength do full damage, just like anyone else with Supernatural PS"


I would say that pretty much sums up the question right there.
"anyone else with Supernatural PS" means... anyone else with Supernatural PS

Axelmania wrote:Since there's still nothing contradicting the idea that practitioners of magic are creatures of magic (still present on CBRp43, and men was changed to practitioners so it was left in intentionally),

Page 36 pretty clearly spells out that learned mages are NOT Creatures of Magic.

Based on 36 it would seem that the statement on 43 is that mages are being banned from having super powers in Rifts (note that this rule is different than the rules in HU2 which explicitly DO allow for combining magic and/or psionics and super powers) due to their magic (which is the reason that Creatures of Magic are banned) even though they are not themselves true Creatures of Magic.

Though the p36 rule does suggest that races that have an automatic magical class ARE Creatures of Magic.
So if every member of a race automatically has the race Mystic then they are a Creature of Magic.
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Re: Sense Magic vs SBeings/CreaturesOfM

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Axelmania wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:Vampire Kingdoms Origional is pretty outdated rules wise. Revidsed let anything with supernatural strength hurt them while eliminating the CoM reqirement

Page 80 mentions "mortal beings with the super ability of Supernatural PS" being able to hurt them...

But couldn't you take that as a reference to the major super power from HU as opposed to all of the various means of acquiring supernatural PS? Including all the D-Bees who inexplicably start off with it?

The more assertive statement seems to be at the end of it...

"creatures of magic who have Supernatural Strength do full damage, just like anyone else with Supernatural PS"

Given the discussion of mortals and creatures of magic explicitly called non supernatural (including dragons, strangely, which contradicts the original VK) the heading "Supernatural Beings" seems misleading for this section.

Since there's still nothing contradicting the idea that practitioners of magic are creatures of magic (still present on CBRp43, and men was changed to practitioners so it was left in intentionally), perhaps this means that Shifters and TWs and co can do 1/2 damage to a vampire's HP with punches?

Could help explain more reasons why vamps could be hesitant to target mages, since even if they ran out of PPE they could still be a threat.

It would also be nice to know that you could harm a vampire with body flips while keeping them detained.


Not sure what you are getting at. the rule pretty clearly changed so anyone with Supernatural Strength can hurt vampires, regardless of SN/CoM status altogeather.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:RUE expanded sense magic past 1E to sense CoM as well.

Aside from...
    "specific room or corner" > "specific room or area"
    "does not include psychic powers" > "does not include psionic influences"
    "users of magic" > "human users of magic"
I'm having trouble noticing any other changes between RMB 123 and RUE 176. None that appear to pertain to Creatures of Magic anyway, unlike VK's implication.



Again, not sure what you are getting at. it lets you sense they are in the area. you can't pinpoint where exactly in the room, but it lets you know they are there. as I never said it could pinpoint them, merely sense them, it seems my statement was factual enough.
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Re: Sense Magic vs SBeings/CreaturesOfM

Unread post by Axelmania »

eliakon wrote:Page 36 pretty clearly spells out that learned mages are NOT Creatures of Magic.

Based on 36 it would seem that the statement on 43 is that mages are being banned from having super powers in Rifts (note that this rule is different than the rules in HU2 which explicitly DO allow for combining magic and/or psionics and super powers) due to their magic (which is the reason that Creatures of Magic are banned) even though they are not themselves true Creatures of Magic.

Though the p36 rule does suggest that races that have an automatic magical class ARE Creatures of Magic.
So if every member of a race automatically has the race Mystic then they are a Creature of Magic.

Just read 35/36 at your prompting, I would say 43 over-rides it because while 36 does say "creatures of magic are born of magic" it doesn't say "ALL creatures of magic are born of magic".

The "mortal flesh and blood creature that is innately magical" part that precedes it could similarly telling us who is automatically a creature of magic, but not the end-all definition of it.

Human practitioners seem to be a contrast in that they learn to be creatures of magic.

This is spelled out pretty plainly for the Lord Magus, although it being the only one to do so in isolation may give the impression they are a unique situation if CB/CBR statements are forgot.

Lord Magi prove that you don't need to be 'born' with magical powers to be a CoM, that you can become one through OCC training, as does page 43.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Not sure what you are getting at. the rule pretty clearly changed so anyone with Supernatural Strength can hurt vampires, regardless of SN/CoM status altogeather.

I'm talking about creatures of magic without supernatural strength, like elves/changelings/mages.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:RUE expanded sense magic past 1E to sense CoM as well.

Aside from...
    "specific room or corner" > "specific room or area"
    "does not include psychic powers" > "does not include psionic influences"
    "users of magic" > "human users of magic"
I'm having trouble noticing any other changes between RMB 123 and RUE 176. None that appear to pertain to Creatures of Magic anyway, unlike VK's implication.


Again, not sure what you are getting at. it lets you sense they are in the area. you can't pinpoint where exactly in the room, but it lets you know they are there. as I never said it could pinpoint them, merely sense them, it seems my statement was factual enough.

You said it was changed to sense CoM but I don't see any changes that indicate this is something new. If RUE's wording allows CoM detection then the RMB wording must have too because it doesn't seem to have changed significantly enough in any areas pertaining to that. Corner>Area / Psychic > Psionic / Powers>Influences Users>Human Users doesn't seem to pertain to CoM.
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Re: Sense Magic vs SBeings/CreaturesOfM

Unread post by Ice Dragon »

I still stick to the old rules, that SM gives an indication, if a spell is active, high or low level power/P.P.E, magic object/weapon is in detection range, etc.
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Re: Sense Magic vs SBeings/CreaturesOfM

Unread post by Axelmania »

Why a magic object but not a creature?
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