Some thoughts and questions on Psi-Swords

[SpiritInterface]

The is about the Psionic power 'Psi-Sword' and not the Cyber Knight power. Can you set down or change hands of your psi-sword? Can you be disarmed of your psi-sword? Outside of the psi-spear of the Mystic Warrior (WB-15/pg.40) I can't find anywhere where they talk about throwing psi-weapons, so can you throw a psi-sword? Do psi-swords have to be created in your dominate hand or can you create it in your weak hand.

[Library Ogre]

I would let you change hands, but not set down your psi-sword.
I would not allow disarming of the psi-sword.
Generally, I would not allow throwing of a psi-weapon that did not specifically have that ability.
I would allow you to create a psi-sword in whichever appendage you choose, so long as it is one you commonly fight with.

[Mack]

Completely agree with Mark's assessment.

[ShadowLogan]

I agree with Mark for the most part. The only way to disarm a Psi-Sword though would be to do something that causes it to disspell.

[Library Ogre]

And, of course, if you REALLY want to disarm the psi-sword, cut off their hand.

[SpiritInterface]

If you have multiple psi-weapons can they be different colors or are they all the same color?

[drewkitty ~..~]

Psi_weapons that can be thrown…I believe the Psi-tomahawk can be thrown.

There is the Psi archer in rifter….<something> (the one in the Archers article).
(the psi-archery in SA2 is a racial power. so taking from that you were not talking about CK Psi-swords that you wanted Psi-powers ""any char"" (of a psionicly capable race) could have.)

[SpiritInterface]

Psi_weapons that can be thrown…I believe the Psi-tomahawk can be thrown.

There is the Psi archer in rifter….<something> (the one in the Archers article).
(the psi-archery in SA2 is a racial power. so taking from that you were not talking about CK Psi-swords that you wanted Psi-powers ""any char"" (of a psionicly capable race) could have.)

The psi-tomahawk can't be thrown, I did check. I treat the CK psi-sword as separate from the Super Psionic ability.

[ShadowLogan]

Psi_weapons that can be thrown…I believe the Psi-tomahawk can be thrown.

There is the Psi archer in rifter….<something> (the one in the Archers article).
(the psi-archery in SA2 is a racial power. so taking from that you were not talking about CK Psi-swords that you wanted Psi-powers ""any char"" (of a psionicly capable race) could have.)

The Psi-archery in SA2 is a racial power yes, but I'm hesitant to treat it as a relative of the Psi-Sword power, it struck me as more of a mind-bolt variation than a Psi-Weapon based on the text ("bolts of mental energy" is more consistent with Mind-Bolt than Psi-Sword description, granted they do form an energy bow which is Psi-Weapon consistent.)

So maybe the Psi-Bow is a hybrid power between Psi-Sword/Weapon and Mind-Bolt. You aren't actually throwing the Psi-weapon, but using it to throw something.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The psi-archer power in the rifter was brought up due to that it is a "ranged" psi-weapon that any char of a race with psi-potential can use. Even thou it is not much like the psi-sword/tomahawk/etc type psi weapons.

The SA2 psi-archer mentioning was in effect "I'm not talking about this one because it does not fit the OP ideas."

[Axelmania]

Seems a bit much to disallow disarming of psi-swords. Don't they already have the benefit of disappearing when released so that your opponent can't use them against you or make a profit selling them, unlike real swords?

Disarming isn't that easy, it's hard to get bonuses for it as an attack and as a defense requires lucky high natural rolls, there should be a reward for it.

If it can't be disarmed then it shouldn't even require a hand at all to wield, meaning that if you cut off the hand it should still extend from the wrist.

That it works like a normal sword, gets WP Sword bonuses, presumably requires a hand like any other blade, should mean it is vulnerable to disarm attacks.

If anything is going to be immune to disarming it should be the Psi-Claw ability... I think that was in Shadows or Light or something. Weapons that are attached rather than held should be un-disarmable, not traditional weapons.

That should also be one benefit to Psi-Shield. If you have it like the cover of Psyscape then rather than being held in the hand like a buckler, a large psi-shield is "strapped" on and shouldn't be disarmable since it's worn rather than held.

[Library Ogre]

While I get where you're coming from, Axel, I disagree. The psi-sword may work like a sword in use, but it's not just something that you have in your hand... it is a chunk of energy created with your mind, that has no existence except as your mind forces it into existence. It's subject to dispelling (if you have a means of dispelling psychic powers), but you can't knock it out of the hand of the person who imagined it there.

[Mack]

While I get where you're coming from, Axel, I disagree. The psi-sword may work like a sword in use, but it's not just something that you have in your hand... it is a chunk of energy created with your mind, that has no existence except as your mind forces it into existence. It's subject to dispelling (if you have a means of dispelling psychic powers), but you can't knock it out of the hand of the person who imagined it there.

Agreed. It's a manifestation of the user's will. No physical move by an opponent is going to dislodge it.

[say652]

Can you weild a Psi Sword with Telekinesis?

[Library Ogre]

Can you weild a Psi Sword with Telekinesis?

I would not usually allow it, though I might allow it with Ectoplasm.

[say652]

So tk no but with the right mix of psi powers wielding Three Swords in combat is possible in Rifts.

[ShadowLogan]

Can you weild a Psi Sword with Telekinesis?

I would not usually allow it, though I might allow it with Ectoplasm.

Agree, though examples exists where creatures have Psi-Sword psionic power but the blade is less a sword and more of a claw/stinger/horn/ like in the Zembahk (WB2) or Land Ray (WB12) that appears on another limb (tail in both cases), which means you might be able to get a "mouth blade" like the old Voltron Lions had.

So tk no but with the right mix of psi powers wielding Three Swords in combat is possible in Rifts.

Yes, though it won't grant bonus attacks and any TK wielded weapon is only going to be able to use the TK bonuses so no OCC/Skill/Race bonuses are applicable (unless it applies to TK). Which is good a lower levels, but at higher levels can become an issue as WP advance by level, your TK bonuses do not.

3 swords? There are ways and configurations (natural/artificial arms are possible beyond 2 plus a tail) that can push that up w/o the use of direct TK or Ectoplasm. Ex. A CS Human Mind Melter using CS TK Artificial Limbs (WB12, bonus attack) could wield 4 swords, plus another via direct TK and another via Ectoplasm limb for a total of 6 (though text in CS TKAL suggests TK/Ectoplasam might not work). Some races exist that don't need the TK Limbs either (CB1r Rahu-man for ex, or WB1o/30's Vernulians) . A Full Conversion Borg with tail and extra arms could wield 5. An Octoman in WB22 could wield 8 (will need enchantment), a Zebuloid (one of the Phaseworld books) IINM outclasses even the Octoman (they can operate multi-man vehicle alone).

[eliakon]

So tk no but with the right mix of psi powers wielding Three Swords in combat is possible in Rifts.

That would depend on the GM and their interpretations of the rules

My interpretation is that unless your race or class says you can get multiple psi-swords (like the cyber-knight) then you can't
Thus as I see it if the average Mind Melter wants to wield two Psi-Swords they need to select the power twice. If they want three then they need to take the power three times, etc.

Also as I see it ectoplasm is not part of the person. It is not 'your hand' and thus you can not wield a psi-sword with ectoplasm anymore than you can wield it with TK, or throw it.

[Mack]

I'd allow a Mind Melter to summon a pair of Psi-Swords, but he'd have to summon each individually. 30 seconds total, and a cost of 60 ISP.

Plus he's ineligible to get WP Paired Weapons (it's restricted to Men at Arms OCCs) so he's not going to double his attacks. (And I forget if there's an official penalty for using a melee weapon in one's off-hand without WP Paired Weapons.)

[say652]

So in order to make this rifts, not HU2 legit.
Two swords one in hand one TK.
Psi Sword in hand.
No paired weapon bonus (??)

[Mack]

So in order to make this rifts, not HU2 legit.
Two swords one in hand one TK.
Psi Sword in hand.
No paired weapon bonus (??)

I would not allow a third Psi-Sword to be created or TK-manipulated.

[say652]

Two physical swords plus the Psi Sword.
I used an HU2 character that used the psi Sword with Super Tk but, that's also Heroes Unlimited and not Rifts.
Totally different game and play level.

[ShadowLogan]

I'd allow a Mind Melter to summon a pair of Psi-Swords, but he'd have to summon each individually. 30 seconds total, and a cost of 60 ISP.

Plus he's ineligible to get WP Paired Weapons (it's restricted to Men at Arms OCCs) so he's not going to double his attacks. (And I forget if there's an official penalty for using a melee weapon in one's off-hand without WP Paired Weapons.)

I can agree about the Psi-Swords.

While they would not be able to take the WP Paired Weapons as a separate Skill selection, they essentially can acquire it at various level as a result of their Hand to Hand Skill (I know its in Martial Arts, Expert, Commando and Assassin at differing levels, C/A both start with WP paired, E/MA is at Level 7).

WP Paired Skill (RUE) description mentions a penalty for shooting guns, but doesn't make it appear that penalties would be in play for melee weapons (which IMHO still apply if I remember "ambidextrous" descriptions correctly, otherwise why mention you can use each hand with equal skill which sort of implies penalties for off hand use regardless)

[Axelmania]

While I get where you're coming from, Axel, I disagree. The psi-sword may work like a sword in use, but it's not just something that you have in your hand... it is a chunk of energy created with your mind, that has no existence except as your mind forces it into existence. It's subject to dispelling (if you have a means of dispelling psychic powers), but you can't knock it out of the hand of the person who imagined it there.

Agreed. It's a manifestation of the user's will. No physical move by an opponent is going to dislodge it.

I could say the same about the spell Lightblade, it's also an energy sword made as a manifestation of will.

In either case you're still creating something you hold in your hand though. It has to be gripped. You need a hand to wield it, and a hand can lose its grip on it.

Otherwise, why does it need to be in the form of a sword at all? Why not just create a psi-blade coming out of your knee or something? Unlike the cyber-knight's version (as of Sot4/ult), the super psi isn't flexible enough to even become an axe, much less a non-hand mounted weapon which is un-disarmable.

Other energy weapons in HU powers like in PU don't say anything about being immune to disarm. That's a powerful immunity and should require a statement if gained.

[ShadowLogan]

In either case you're still creating something you hold in your hand though. It has to be gripped. You need a hand to wield it, and a hand can lose its grip on it.

But is it actually being gripped physcially or psionically? A psychic grip would be in the mind, and you could be using the limb to "guide" the construct.

Otherwise, why does it need to be in the form of a sword at all? Why not just create a psi-blade coming out of your knee or something? Unlike the cyber-knight's version (as of Sot4/ult), the super psi isn't flexible enough to even become an axe, much less a non-hand mounted weapon which is un-disarmable.

Well theoretically you could, as nothing requires it to form in the hand per the text. There are also examples in WB2 and WB12 (see previous post) where the Psi-blade appears on the creatures tail.

There are also examples that fit that basic mold of creatures like WB2/WB12 that lack humanoid limbs (ex Sphinx or Ki-Lin or Harpies or Emrin in CB1r) that have access to all Psionic Powers without excluding it (ex Weird Wing in CB1r excludes Psi-sword and Psi-Shield and it doesn't have humanoid limbs either).

[Library Ogre]

While I get where you're coming from, Axel, I disagree. The psi-sword may work like a sword in use, but it's not just something that you have in your hand... it is a chunk of energy created with your mind, that has no existence except as your mind forces it into existence. It's subject to dispelling (if you have a means of dispelling psychic powers), but you can't knock it out of the hand of the person who imagined it there.

Agreed. It's a manifestation of the user's will. No physical move by an opponent is going to dislodge it.

I could say the same about the spell Lightblade, it's also an energy sword made as a manifestation of will.

Yes, you could. I don't see a problem with that.

In either case you're still creating something you hold in your hand though. It has to be gripped. You need a hand to wield it, and a hand can lose its grip on it.

[citation needed]

Otherwise, why does it need to be in the form of a sword at all? Why not just create a psi-blade coming out of your knee or something? Unlike the cyber-knight's version (as of Sot4/ult), the super psi isn't flexible enough to even become an axe, much less a non-hand mounted weapon which is un-disarmable.

[citation needed]

Other energy weapons in HU powers like in PU don't say anything about being immune to disarm. That's a powerful immunity and should require a statement if gained.

Why? It's not easy or common to be disarmed.

[say652]

In HU it says in the power description cannot be disarmed.....

[drewkitty ~..~]

In a way the text is right in that the blade cannot be 'taken away'. But because it interacts with the physical world as if a physical object I can see GM's ruling that the Psi-Sword can be knocked from the hand causing the sword to de-rez. The psi can just re-summon the sword and thus isn't really 'disarmed' even thou their opponent had a successful disarm strike. Yes, the psi would need time to re-form the psi-sword but it would not totally take away the sword.

[SpiritInterface]

In a way the text is right in that the blade cannot be 'taken away'. But because it interacts with the physical world as if a physical object I can see GM's ruling that the Psi-Sword can be knocked from the hand causing the sword to de-rez. The psi can just re-summon the sword and thus isn't really 'disarmed' even thou their opponent had a successful disarm strike. Yes, the psi would need time to re-form the psi-sword but it would not totally take away the sword.

The effect in combat would be the same as if you totally took away the sword. When a person is disarmed they can spend the action(s) to recover it. When a psi sword is disarmed it ceases to exist, and can not be recovered in combat. As a GM and as a player I would say that it is fundamentally unfair to be able to strip some OCCs of their primary mode of attack with a simple combat maneuver.

[ShadowLogan]

I could say the same about the spell Lightblade, it's also an energy sword made as a manifestation of will.

Lightblade though is a magic spell, Psi-Sword is a psychic power. The two operate on different, though similar, principles with some overlap in end effects.

In a way the text is right in that the blade cannot be 'taken away'. But because it interacts with the physical world as if a physical object I can see GM's ruling that the Psi-Sword can be knocked from the hand causing the sword to de-rez. The psi can just re-summon the sword and thus isn't really 'disarmed' even thou their opponent had a successful disarm strike. Yes, the psi would need time to re-form the psi-sword but it would not totally take away the sword.

I don't think it is reasonable for a Psi-Sword-class psionic power to be disarmed by getting them to physically "let go" since they aren't actual physical constructs, they are pure energy constructs (which also means they can not parry based on the Wilk's Laser Knife/Sword). The only reasonable way for a "disarm" to happen is the psychic's concentration is lost (by intense pain, blinding, etc).

[drewkitty ~..~]

Psi-swords can parry physical swords. Thus they interact with the physical world on a mundane level. Thus the physical world can effect the psi-sword. *shrugs*

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The "Are psi-swords an psychic energy weapon or a physical weapon?" question has been discussed for ages.

Because of these discussions I hold the VP that they are both a physical manifestation and a psionic energy weapon. Effecting both those that can only be hurt by mystic energy and those that are immune to mystic energy.

To put in terms SW geeks can relate to, psi-swords are a psychic force field in the shape of a sword wrapped around a energy core.

[eliakon]

Ectoplasm can affect the real world too...
...but you can't use a disarm attack to disarm someone of their ectoplasm
Nor can I use a disarm attack to remove a martial artist's arm or fist
Nor can I use disarm to disarm a psychic of their brain, a wizard of their mouth, or a cobra of their venom glands.
I don't see any convincing reason to think that a psi-sword should be any different. It isn't an object or piece of equipment it is effectively a innate power that happens to manifest as an effect that looks like a sword held in the hand (usually though there are canon exceptions).

My stance would be that unless a power says that it CAN be disarmed or otherwise taken away... then you can't simply take it away from someone. Basically that super powers/psionics/spells and the like are inherent abilities of the person and not simply pieces of gear.
This is especially obvious when one follows the logic of the claim that a psi-sword should be treated just like a normal weapon. Great... what is the MDC of the psi-sword for when I want to attack it and destroy it? After all if it is 'just a weapon' then ALL the usual rules should apply right? Selectively applying rules is Not Cool.

[Axelmania]

But is it actually being gripped physcially or psionically? A psychic grip would be in the mind, and you could be using the limb to "guide" the construct.

Until it's described otherwise I'm going to treat it like any other sword.

There are also examples in WB2 and WB12 (see previous post) where the Psi-blade appears on the creatures tail.

I see the Zembahk's power on page 83 of Atlantis and the Land Ray's power on page 101 of Psyscape as unique racial variations of these powers, not how the powers normally operate.

Unique racial variations on super psionics have existed since the original conversion book, where the Syvan had a unique kind of Bio-Regeneration which restored MDC for them, something that power would not do for any other MDC beings with super psionics.

The Psymbiote on page 107 is another good example of that, they are able to give their Psi-Sword to their host, even though the power explicitly prohibits giving the sword to others. It's a unique racial exception.

If just anybody could project psi-sword from things like tails/tentacles there would be no need to grip them... yet if we look at page 11 of the original Vampire Kingdoms, the Intelligence "can be held in tentacles" so holding it somehow is a must.

This means I can do a disarm attack to make a Vampire Intelligence drop its psi-sword, but since it comes "from" (rather than 'held in') the tail of the Zembahk/LandRay I could consider those 2 unique cases where you can't disarm them since their psi-swords are uniquely attached to them.

There are also examples that fit that basic mold of creatures like WB2/WB12 that lack humanoid limbs (ex Sphinx or Ki-Lin or Harpies or Emrin in CB1r) that have access to all Psionic Powers without excluding it (ex Weird Wing in CB1r excludes Psi-sword and Psi-Shield and it doesn't have humanoid limbs either).

Sphinx (CB158) started which Computer Operation, Writing, and could select OCCS like Techno-Wizard or Diabolist which involved intricate construction. They are "part human" so as similar as Gustovich's artwork looks to a lion paw, I don't think we should assume they are limited to lion's dexterity, when they very well might have human prehensility.

Ki Lin have "Art" as a skill. If you can hold a paintbrush in your mouth you can hold a psi-sword in your mouth. Up to the GM if you can adapt WP Sword skills to mouth-held instead of hand-held. I could imagine those being different skills.

Harpies would probably be capable of holding a Psi-Sword in their claws.

Emirin explicitly "do not use tools or weapons except by means of ectoplasm of telekinesis" so I figure one of those would explain how they would use swords.

Any of these beasts with access to Psi-Sword probably have access to selecting Ectoplasm too, so they could use that to wield it. It's always possible to select a power they can't put to good use.

Is there even any text saying you can't wield a Psi-Sword via Telekinesis? That doesn't constitute giving it to another person, after all. Was this added in a later book if you break physical contact it vanishes?

In the original descriptions I only see it vanishing if you fall unconscious.

Other energy weapons in HU powers like in PU don't say anything about being immune to disarm. That's a powerful immunity and should require a statement if gained.

Why? It's not easy or common to be disarmed.

It's still a situation that could come up, and immunity to a kind of attack isn't something we should assume.

If something is explicitly held (as we see a psi-sword is, under the Vampire Intelligence, who holds it with tentacles) then it can be dropped.

In unique racial variations of the power for the Zs/Rays where it projects from a tail rather than being held by it, I'd rule since they're not holding it they can't drop it.

It's like the difference between a hand-held vibro-blade and a forearm-mounted vibro-blade.

In HU it says in the power description cannot be disarmed.....

I'm looking at page 313 now. What sentence are you referring to? "It cannot be given to another character to use" is not a prohibition against dropping it, if you mean that. At best, you could take this to imply that if you dropped it, your enemy couldn't pick it up.

Reading it super strictly though, that isn't being "given to" it's being "taken by" so a GM could still let an enemy steal your sword and use it, but you can't willingly do so or it won't work for some reason.

In a way the text is right in that the blade cannot be 'taken away'. But because it interacts with the physical world as if a physical object I can see GM's ruling that the Psi-Sword can be knocked from the hand causing the sword to de-rez. The psi can just re-summon the sword and thus isn't really 'disarmed' even thou their opponent had a successful disarm strike. Yes, the psi would need time to re-form the psi-sword but it would not totally take away the sword.

I only see 3 explicit conditions for the sword going away:
1) duration ends
2) creator unconscious
3) creator wills it gone

So if it's disarmed or set down, it might simply stay there and you could pick it up again later. The "cannot be given" prohibition probably just means nobody else can pick it up but you.

When a psi sword is disarmed it ceases to exist, and can not be recovered in combat.

Which setting does this happen in again? I figure it was added in later errata?

Lightblade though is a magic spell, Psi-Sword is a psychic power. The two operate on different, though similar, principles with some overlap in end effects.

Let's look at powered examples then. The major super ability Energy Weapon Extensions from Skraypers 149 is explicitly an "energy weapon appendage" and it works the way people are talking about Psi-Sword working, except Psi-Sword doesn't normally work that way unless you're a Zembahk or Land Ray.

The minor super ability Energy Whip from Powers Unlimited 25 is also explicitly able to be "an extension of the hand" or "a tail" or "come out of the shoulder". This sets the precedent that we are actually told when energy weapons can do that.

Ectoplasm can affect the real world too......but you can't use a disarm attack to disarm someone of their ectoplasm

That's because it is extensions of the body. You don't hold it, it comes out of your pores and does holding for you. Psi-swords are not limbs like this They are discrete energy weapons which you hold on to.

It isn't an object or piece of equipment it is effectively a innate power that happens to manifest as an effect that looks like a sword held in the hand (usually though there are canon exceptions).

I disagree. It is an object. It is a piece of equipment. It is a weapon made through psychic powers which you hold on to.

My stance would be that unless a power says that it CAN be disarmed or otherwise taken away... then you can't simply take it away from someone. Basically that super powers/psionics/spells and the like are inherent abilities of the person and not simply pieces of gear.

If a power creates something you can definitely drop that something and don't need any special statements to that effect.

This is especially obvious when one follows the logic of the claim that a psi-sword should be treated just like a normal weapon. Great... what is the MDC of the psi-sword for when I want to attack it and destroy it? After all if it is 'just a weapon' then ALL the usual rules should apply right? Selectively applying rules is Not Cool.

It wouldn't be the first weapon not explicitly assigned a damage capacity, so I don't see this as being a valid argument.