A question on casting a spell

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SpiritInterface
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A question on casting a spell

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

I don't know if it has been discussed but how long can you hold a spell on the edge of being cast? In the Rifts (palladium) system it takes 1 to 3 actions to cast a spell. What I am wondering is once you reach the end of the incantation how long can you hold the spell before you have to release it at it's target?
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

There is no text that says a magic user can hold a spell after they finish constructing it.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by Glistam »

SpiritInterface wrote:I don't know if it has been discussed but how long can you hold a spell on the edge of being cast? In the Rifts (palladium) system it takes 1 to 3 actions to cast a spell. What I am wondering is once you reach the end of the incantation how long can you hold the spell before you have to release it at it's target?

Generally you can't "hold" a spell to release it later. The closest thing I can think of are spells that once you cast them, you gain an effect that is usable for a duration. Typically this is offensive spells like Throwing Stones or Electric Arc.
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is no test that says a magic user can hold a spell after they finish constructing it.

Although there are some spells that after casting are "fired off" multiple times per period of time, but they don't have to for each action (as Glistam pointed out).

Examples (all per Rifts Book of Magic):
-Throwing Stones (pg95) it lasts for 2 melee rounds and does not say you have to throw the stones on each attack
-Telekensis (pg98), nothing says you have to use TK each attack/action while it is in play so you could "hold" effects after casting
Electric Arc (pg100) describes it as 2 possible attacks in the first round (if you have 4 actions and use 2 to cast the spell)
-Crushing Fist (pg111) has two modes of attack, but the duration isn't influenced by using melee or ranged attack (though you have to pick one)
-Fireglobe (pg120) once cast it doesn't do damage until it is broken (or time elapses)
-Ley Line Tendril Bolts (pg121), nothing says that each action taken during the duration must be via the energy spheres the spell generates

There are possibly more in other branches of magic and even Wizard invocations I missed, but you can see that some spells allow themselves to be "held" for various durations if the caster wanted to without generating a noticeable effect. It doesn't alter the duration of though.

The only way though for a caster to hold a spell after casting it within the rules w/o issue is to put it into either "Create Magic Scroll" or "Talisman", though these are more long term options and likely aren't viable for short term "holds" like the OP is asking about.

Granted per Rifts BoM pg20 Q&A on spell interruption could be viewed as applicable to "holds" from certain POV... If these are seen as rules and looking for a loop hole A mage might be able to "hold" for different amount of time depending if it is a spell or ritual if we treat the "hold" as being the same as a "disruption". If that is true then a spell could be held for less than 1 melee action and 2 melee rounds (30sec) for a ritual. Though it should be noted that Ritual and Spell versions do not go hand in hand (ex. I might know Fireball as a Spell, but that doesn't mean I know it as a Ritual).
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is no test that says a magic user can hold a spell after they finish constructing it.

There is no "holding" a spell. It goes off instantly, so don't cast until you are ready.

Some spells like Electric Arc have a duration where you can choose to use it or not
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

"holding a spell" is a very specific idea.
Meaning you cast/construct of the spell except for the last few bits of it. Keeping what you have made in a dormant state till you add in the last bits of the spell. Or that you fully make the spell but hold off it's activation.

There is no text in PB canon that lets a mage 'hold' a spell.
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I for one like it the way PB has it about when the magic goes off.
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I wouldn't be adverse to someone holding a spell, though there'd be the caveat that they couldn't do anything else (maybe a slow walk) while doing so.
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by Glistam »

Mark Hall wrote:I wouldn't be adverse to someone holding a spell, though there'd be the caveat that they couldn't do anything else (maybe a slow walk) while doing so.

I'd be down for that. I would further rule that they would also still need to use an action to release it, and I would limit the time they could hold it to maybe something like one melee per level.
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by Mack »

I agree. It's not in canon, but it's reasonable thing to allow. Would also enable mages to cast a high level spell (which requires more actions) then 'hold' it until their target appears. Useful ability for ambushes.
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by JuliusCreed »

The only problem I have with 'holding' a spell would be the actions that can be taken while the spell is 'held'... for obvious reasons, speaking in any way, shape or form would be out the door; an incantation requires certain magic words to work and if the only thing keeping it from going off is a couple words, then hollering "Look out behind you!" is likely NOT the words you need to speak. Second, physical actions, while not required for an spell incantation to function, would likely have to be limited in order to maintain some level of concentration while the caster is keeping his/her spell in check; anything faster than a slow walk, up to and including defending yourself against an attack, would likely be enough to break this concentration and POOF... spell fizzles. Next, some kind of limited duration should likely be imposed... regardless of how well your caster can maintain his concentration, there should be limits to how long a wizard can keep that awesome 15th level fireball spell at the tip of his tongue; This can be determined in a few different ways; 1st option hold a spell for 1 melee round per caster level of experience, reflecting the caster's experience at using magic. 2nd, hold a spell for 1 melee round per level of the spell reflecting the spell's overall complexity/difficulty to cast. 3rd, hold a spell for 1 melee round per M.E. point of the caster, reflecting the caster's level of overall concentration. A 4th option for all you math wizards out there, average as many of the above options out as you wish to incorporate and hold a spell for that many melee rounds. And finally, my personal favorite... come up with your own method of determining how long a spell can be held in check if you're even going to allow such a thing in the first place :lol: Either way have fun with it!
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Other then the answer 'No way jose'….

1st if I did at all, I would only let mages hold their spells. Excluding magic users that intuitively know how to make a few magic spells or their magic have been granted to them by a SN being/force.

Since it is the mind that makes the magic, not the words, a held spell would be compleat in it's form while being held. Just lacking a activation piece and location information missing. It would take the mage's concentration to hold. Not able to take actions. Walking (excluding fast walking) and watching are allowed IMO. Anything that requires higher level thinking it out also. (There are reasons that talk and texting on a phone while driving are illegal in most of the USA.)

If the mage has had his holding concentration I am thinking the mage should have a chance of getting the spell off. Matbe something like 15% +5% per level of being able to get the spell off. (with combat mages like the Smoker and the Battle Magnus getting a +15%.)
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by eliakon »

My two cents worth here.
I would not allow anyone to hold a spell.
My reasoning is this. I don't allow a sniper to fire a gun and then 'hold' the bullet. I don't allow a gladiator to take a swing and then "hold" the battle axe. And the worst part is the idea of casting some high level spell and then getting to hold it for some unspecified time to get to use it when its more convenient. Not just no, but HELL NO. The inconvenience of spells is part of the price of power. You want to cast Annihilate on the CS patrol? Cool. You have to cast it when they get there. You can't cast it before hand and surprise them with it when they arrive. Nuh uh no sir. The longer you can hold a spell the worse the abuses get. Frankly as I see it mages are already insanely powerful, they don't need even MORE toys in the toy box that let them do everyone else's job better than them. If you want to use that spell in an ambush then tough beans, your going to have to either come in late, start early, or risk it being interrupted. No special immunity to inconvenience to you.
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by SpiritInterface »

The question came about because I wanted to ambush a target using the 7th level spell sub-particle acceleration when he stepped through a door. My GM was being nit picky about timing since all I knew was that te target had entered the building but not when he was going to step through the door.
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by flatline »

It all comes down to how the GM thinks spells work.

If the mage is mentally building a pattern and then energizing it with PPE to activate it, then holding off on the PPE until you're ready for the effect seems reasonable if the pattern doesn't begin to degrade as soon as it's complete.

I see several ways to rule that would all be acceptable:
1. don't allow it at all
2. allow it, but only for as long as something doesn't break the concentration of the caster
3. allow it, but determine the duration that a spell can be held by the caster's level or attributes

#2 is how I've seen most groups handle this sort of thing.

As a GM, I probably wouldn't let you hold a spell whose level is greater than your own.

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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

flatline wrote:It all comes down to how the GM thinks spells work.

If the mage is mentally building a pattern and then energizing it with PPE to activate it, then holding off on the PPE until you're ready for the effect seems reasonable if the pattern doesn't begin to degrade as soon as it's complete.

I see several ways to rule that would all be acceptable:
1. don't allow it at all
2. allow it, but only for as long as something doesn't break the concentration of the caster
3. allow it, but determine the duration that a spell can be held by the caster's level or attributes

#2 is how I've seen most groups handle this sort of thing.

As a GM, I probably wouldn't let you hold a spell whose level is greater than your own.

--flatline

I will just point out concerning #2 that by the rules there is a window where the concentration can be broken without having to start over. That would IMHO allow for a hold if the player/character "distracts them self" while casting, though for spell casting it is very short (less than 1 action) versus rituals (30sec).
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Re: A question on casting a spell

Unread post by Axelmania »

I usually think of casting times as minimum times and there not being any maximum time so long as you're not interrupted.
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