Spell Question

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Mack
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Spell Question

Unread post by Mack »

I'm curious how other folks handle this one:

Fred the Air Warlock casts Cloud of Slumber on spot. He then casts the same spell on the same spot. What happens?

Possible outcomes:
1) The two clouds co-exist in the same location. Any victims must Save vs Magic twice, once for each spell.
2) The two clouds co-exist in the same location. Any victims must Save vs Magic once.
3) The second cloud can not be cast on the same spot of the first, and appears adjacent to the first.
4) The second cloud can not be cast on the same spot of the first, and nothing happens (Fred wasted his PPE).
5) The second cloud can not be cast on the same spot of the first, Fred can't get his magical ju-ju focused on that spot, and does not expend any PPE.
6) Something else entirely.
7) Tacos!

Additional thought... what if the second spell is cast not by Fred, but by his best buddy Bob?
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

I would say 1. Nothing prevents stacking.

However, I will point out under the rules that canceling an active spell is a free action requiring nothing more than a thought on the mages part. so even if you say the two clouds cannot co-exist, nothing stops you from casting it, canceling it, then casting again the next turn.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by eliakon »

Mack wrote:I'm curious how other folks handle this one:

Fred the Air Warlock casts Cloud of Slumber on spot. He then casts the same spell on the same spot. What happens?

Possible outcomes:
1) The two clouds co-exist in the same location. Any victims must Save vs Magic twice, once for each spell.
2) The two clouds co-exist in the same location. Any victims must Save vs Magic once.
3) The second cloud can not be cast on the same spot of the first, and appears adjacent to the first.
4) The second cloud can not be cast on the same spot of the first, and nothing happens (Fred wasted his PPE).
5) The second cloud can not be cast on the same spot of the first, Fred can't get his magical ju-ju focused on that spot, and does not expend any PPE.
6) Something else entirely.
7) Tacos!

Additional thought... what if the second spell is cast not by Fred, but by his best buddy Bob?

While #1 is the most logical... in the interest of game balance, and to prevent abuse I go with #2. When ask why the sages pontificate at length about the nature of magic, how by the property of similarity that which is similar becomes identical, how mystic forces can intertwine, and some universal force called 'The munch-bat'
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by ShadowLogan »

Mack wrote:I'm curious how other folks handle this one:

Fred the Air Warlock casts Cloud of Slumber on spot. He then casts the same spell on the same spot. What happens?

Possible outcomes:
1) The two clouds co-exist in the same location. Any victims must Save vs Magic twice, once for each spell.
2) The two clouds co-exist in the same location. Any victims must Save vs Magic once.
3) The second cloud can not be cast on the same spot of the first, and appears adjacent to the first.
4) The second cloud can not be cast on the same spot of the first, and nothing happens (Fred wasted his PPE).
5) The second cloud can not be cast on the same spot of the first, Fred can't get his magical ju-ju focused on that spot, and does not expend any PPE.
6) Something else entirely.
7) Tacos!

Additional thought... what if the second spell is cast not by Fred, but by his best buddy Bob?

For "Fred" casting aspects I'd probably go with #6 as something like...
6a) The spell is reset for the area (duration, effects, etc)
6b) The spell is "enhanced" in some way resulting in #2 but Save vs Magic (or other effects) are improved slightly

6a would be the simplest way, though 6b has some appeal I must admit and was my first inclination but to avoid abuse I think 6a works better in this regard.

For Fred and Bob, I want to lean towards #1, but that can become ripe for abuse IMHO and my approach to #6 seems to break down. Part of it I think also depends on specific spells, in this case I'd go with #1 but other spells could be something different.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

eliakon wrote:
Mack wrote:I'm curious how other folks handle this one:

Fred the Air Warlock casts Cloud of Slumber on spot. He then casts the same spell on the same spot. What happens?

Possible outcomes:
1) The two clouds co-exist in the same location. Any victims must Save vs Magic twice, once for each spell.
2) The two clouds co-exist in the same location. Any victims must Save vs Magic once.
3) The second cloud can not be cast on the same spot of the first, and appears adjacent to the first.
4) The second cloud can not be cast on the same spot of the first, and nothing happens (Fred wasted his PPE).
5) The second cloud can not be cast on the same spot of the first, Fred can't get his magical ju-ju focused on that spot, and does not expend any PPE.
6) Something else entirely.
7) Tacos!

Additional thought... what if the second spell is cast not by Fred, but by his best buddy Bob?

While #1 is the most logical... in the interest of game balance, and to prevent abuse I go with #2. When ask why the sages pontificate at length about the nature of magic, how by the property of similarity that which is similar becomes identical, how mystic forces can intertwine, and some universal force called 'The munch-bat'



Though again--it's perfectly legal by the rules to cancel a spell at-will then cast it again, so this dosn't actually limit double casting at all.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Mack »

Nek, I hadn't considered the cancel & re-cast approach, which is a good thought. But for this discussion I'm more interested in the stacking question. Such as after Fred casts it twice, then Wilbur the scout wanders into the two clouds. Does Wilbur need two saves or just one?
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Mack wrote:Nek, I hadn't considered the cancel & re-cast approach, which is a good thought. But for this discussion I'm more interested in the stacking question. Such as after Fred casts it twice, then Wilbur the scout wanders into the two clouds. Does Wilbur need two saves or just one?


Let me answer your question with a question: if a SWAT team is making a rush to capture the bad guys, and they throw 2 CS tear grenades instead of 1, would the victims inside have to save two times or only one?

By the strict letter of the rules, each grenade is a seperate attack, resolved and saved vs. different.

by Kevin's frequently cited "Use Common Sense" approach to such things, once an area is already full of gas, pumping even more in dosn't really change things. either you can resist or not.

So the rules laywer in me says "Yes, they stack". the Common-Sense approach says "No, at best you have one save with a rising difficuly"

Both agree that casting, canceling and re-casting would result in a fresh save each time, mind you.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

option #1.
They are two independently acting spells.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Mack »

A reason why I'm curious about stacking is that without modifiers, the Save vs Magic is only 12. So 40% of the time a victim will make it. But...

With 2 spells stacked, the odds drop to 16% of the time.
With 3 spells, they drop to 6.4%.
With 4 spells, they drop to 2.6%.
With 5 spells, they drop to 1.0%.
With... You see where I'm going.

A cheap Area of Effect spell like Cloud of Slumber (which only costs 4 PPE) can have it's effectiveness ratcheted way up with just a few additional applications.

If 20 opponents are hit with 3 Clouds, odds are only 1 or 2 will make all three saves. For only 12 PPE the Warlock puts down 18+ dudes.

To borrow Nekira's CS Tear Grenade analogy, we intuitively know that 2 grenades in a room will be harder to resist. Is it fair to quantify that as changing the odds to resist from 40% down to 16%?

This was the genesis of my stacking question.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by flatline »

By RAW, I think #1 is the correct answer.

I don't like that, though. In my house rules, for every time you successfully resist an effect (spell or psionic) you get an accumulative +2 to save against that same effect for the duration of the scene (or 1 hour, whatever is less). Also, a natural 1 only counts as a natural 1 the first time you attempt to save, so if you've successfully saved at least once that scene, there's no longer a 5% chance of an automatic failure.

This requires psychics and mages to have more varied tactics since, say, spamming bio-manipulation or cloud of slumber is not as viable as in RAW.

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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Mack wrote:A reason why I'm curious about stacking is that without modifiers, the Save vs Magic is only 12. So 40% of the time a victim will make it. But...

…snip

One minor flaw in your numbers. to save verses a L1 Wizard with a Spell Str of 12 the targets has a 45% of saving verses magic. Saves are the target number/Spell Str. or more.

The 12 spell str. is 1st level common magic mages casting invocation spells.
And when you start talking about mages with higher spell str the probability numbers get lower.
12: 45%
13: 40%
14: 35%
15: 30%
16: 25%

I'm not going to do the double casting probabilities.
And the above numbers are only for those with no vs magic bonus.
And while there is no text supporting adding the spell str. level up increaces to the ritual spell str.; there is no text forbbiding such application. Which would make the %'s for rituals…..

16: 25%
17: 20%
18: 15%
19: 10%
20: 5%

However, Wizards, Mystic Studies and LLW are better off then Chi mages which do not get level bonuses to their spell str. Nor do they get a 16 Spell Str for casting rituals because they are already considered to be casting as rituals with their normal casting style @ spell str 12.
Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Sun Sep 11, 2016 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Shark_Force »

flatline wrote:By RAW, I think #1 is the correct answer.

I don't like that, though. In my house rules, for every time you successfully resist an effect (spell or psionic) you get an accumulative +2 to save against that same effect for the duration of the scene (or 1 hour, whatever is less). Also, a natural 1 only counts as a natural 1 the first time you attempt to save, so if you've successfully saved at least once that scene, there's no longer a 5% chance of an automatic failure.

This requires psychics and mages to have more varied tactics since, say, spamming bio-manipulation or cloud of slumber is not as viable as in RAW.

--flatline


hmmm... the only thing i don't like about that for psionics is that you basically only *have* 2-3 really effective tools in your psionic toolbox that apply in any given situation. if bio-manipulation isn't going to work in that combat, and bio-manipulation was the ability that was going to be useful in that combat, that is almost the same thing as saying that your psionic abilities in general won't work in that combat.

which means it probably boils down to using [one of: bio-manipulation, telemechanic control ability of choice] and if that doesn't work on the first one or two tries you completely abandon that and revert to super telekinesis with your level in weapons for damage dealing. or just pull out a pulse laser.

(now, don't get me wrong, i'd rather the problem be solved by giving psionic characters more variety in effective options so that a level 5 mind melter actually has real choices to make, because the current state of affairs isn't much better, but when they basically only have two good psionic options in any given scenario taking one of those away is a big loss in variety).
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by flatline »

Shark_Force wrote:
flatline wrote:By RAW, I think #1 is the correct answer.

I don't like that, though. In my house rules, for every time you successfully resist an effect (spell or psionic) you get an accumulative +2 to save against that same effect for the duration of the scene (or 1 hour, whatever is less). Also, a natural 1 only counts as a natural 1 the first time you attempt to save, so if you've successfully saved at least once that scene, there's no longer a 5% chance of an automatic failure.

This requires psychics and mages to have more varied tactics since, say, spamming bio-manipulation or cloud of slumber is not as viable as in RAW.

--flatline


hmmm... the only thing i don't like about that for psionics is that you basically only *have* 2-3 really effective tools in your psionic toolbox that apply in any given situation. if bio-manipulation isn't going to work in that combat, and bio-manipulation was the ability that was going to be useful in that combat, that is almost the same thing as saying that your psionic abilities in general won't work in that combat.

which means it probably boils down to using [one of: bio-manipulation, telemechanic control ability of choice] and if that doesn't work on the first one or two tries you completely abandon that and revert to super telekinesis with your level in weapons for damage dealing. or just pull out a pulse laser.

(now, don't get me wrong, i'd rather the problem be solved by giving psionic characters more variety in effective options so that a level 5 mind melter actually has real choices to make, because the current state of affairs isn't much better, but when they basically only have two good psionic options in any given scenario taking one of those away is a big loss in variety).


We rarely had dedicated psychic PCs, so it never came up. If in play we decided that it was too harsh, we could have backed it down to +1 per save or perhaps exempt psionics from the rule. However, our combat rules made combat so risky that the only times the players let themselves get into combat that lasted more than a round or two, things had already gone horribly wrong. Combat was typically so short that nobody really had much opportunity to spam a particular power.

--flatline
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I would go with 2, and would probably rule against Nek's "cancel and recast" approach. Might be rules legal, but rubs me the wrong way.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Mack »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Mack wrote:A reason why I'm curious about stacking is that without modifiers, the Save vs Magic is only 12. So 40% of the time a victim will make it. But...

…snip

One minor flaw in your numbers. to save verses a L1 Wizard with a Spell Str of 12 the targets has a 45% of saving verses magic. Saves are the target number/Spell Str. or more.


Yep, my mistake. Had it in my head as "above 12" rather than "12 or better."

The math for multiple applications comes out to:
-- Odds of saving against 1 spell: 45%
-- Odds of saving against 2 spells: 20%
-- Odds of saving against 3 spells: 9%
-- Odds of saving against 4 spells: 4%
-- Odds of saving against 5 spells: 2%
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Mark Hall wrote:I would go with 2, and would probably rule against Nek's "cancel and recast" approach. Might be rules legal, but rubs me the wrong way.


I'll bite, why? what in-universe phenomina would stop it from working, sinse the magical gas would instantly vanish the moment it's cast, there'd be nothing let to interfear with another casting.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I would go with 2, and would probably rule against Nek's "cancel and recast" approach. Might be rules legal, but rubs me the wrong way.


I'll bite, why? what in-universe phenomina would stop it from working, sinse the magical gas would instantly vanish the moment it's cast, there'd be nothing let to interfear with another casting.


Mostly, I think it's an even cheaper use of an already really cheap spell. "Oh, you saved that time? Will you save this time? Or this time? Or this time?"

Statistically, everyone fails their save eventually. It's a cheap trick.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Mark Hall wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:I would go with 2, and would probably rule against Nek's "cancel and recast" approach. Might be rules legal, but rubs me the wrong way.


I'll bite, why? what in-universe phenomina would stop it from working, sinse the magical gas would instantly vanish the moment it's cast, there'd be nothing let to interfear with another casting.


Mostly, I think it's an even cheaper use of an already really cheap spell. "Oh, you saved that time? Will you save this time? Or this time? Or this time?"

Statistically, everyone fails their save eventually. It's a cheap trick.


I'm not denying that it's a cheep tactic, i'm asking what would be the perspective from an in-universe wizard trying to figure out why he can cancel and recast cloud of smoke over and over again (which has no saving throw but tends to annoy your side as much as theres, so is mostly good for escapes), but Cloud of Slumber has some kind of delay.

for that matter, what kind of delay? once every other turn? three turns? once per melee round? minute? Would it be arbitrary or have some kind of explination.


Not that Balace-based rules necessarly need to make internal sense--I've vetoed legal combinations on the grounds of "Because it's broken" and took it no further. but this one in particular strikes me as begging some kind of answer--what does the wizard trying it feel and learn?
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Library Ogre »

I wouldn't prevent it; I simply wouldn't require a new save from everyone every time a new cloud popped into existence. "Oh, you saved against the spell a second ago? Here's the identical spell again, forcing a new save." If you really want a magical reason, I refer you to the Druidic laws of magic; a weaker magic will always be weaker. By saving, you have proven yourself stronger than the magician. That spell can't affect you until situation changes by more than a few seconds.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by JuliusCreed »

One thing I need to ask when answering this question... are the targets of the spell already in the area it is being cast in?

If so then yes... the targets in the area must save twice... once for the initial casting of the first CoS... and, if the first save is successful, a second time for the second CoS cast in the same area on the same targets. To a point I agree with Nek on the whole CS gas thing... but a magic cloud spell of any kind is powered by magic energy that acts more like a grenade in the fact that its effects must be saved against every time the effect is cast in a particular area. On that same note... anyone entering the area AFTER both CoS spells have been cast... need only save once... the identical effects of the clouds have already mingled at that point and the need for an additional save has been essentially nullified by time passed... at that point you basically just have an extra dense Cloud of Slumber.

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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Axelmania »

I like the idea of treating it like a literal cloud so initially you might get the condensed vapours and needing to save against both spells, but then they spread out or something into a wider area effect.

Mayber the spell with the higher strength (or if that is the same, the most recently cast or most duration remaining) is strongest and gets the new area and the old spell gets pushed elsewhere.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Mark Hall wrote:I wouldn't prevent it; I simply wouldn't require a new save from everyone every time a new cloud popped into existence. "Oh, you saved against the spell a second ago? Here's the identical spell again, forcing a new save." If you really want a magical reason, I refer you to the Druidic laws of magic; a weaker magic will always be weaker. By saving, you have proven yourself stronger than the magician. That spell can't affect you until situation changes by more than a few seconds.



Hmm. good Answer! :ok:
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Axelmania wrote:I like the idea of treating it like a literal cloud so initially you might get the condensed vapours and needing to save against both spells, but then they spread out or something into a wider area effect.

Mayber the spell with the higher strength (or if that is the same, the most recently cast or most duration remaining) is strongest and gets the new area and the old spell gets pushed elsewhere.


I dunno, at 4 PPE a pop, letting each casting multiply the area of effect would be arguably worse than multiple saves, sinse a mage at a Ley Line can basically cast them indefinately.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Mack »

So here's a variation on the original question: Suppose Fred the Warlock casts multiple Clouds of Slumber along a long hallway where each cloud does not overlap.

If Wilber the scout walks down that hall, he has to save against each cloud he enters, right?
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Dracolych68 »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Axelmania wrote:I like the idea of treating it like a literal cloud so initially you might get the condensed vapours and needing to save against both spells, but then they spread out or something into a wider area effect.

Mayber the spell with the higher strength (or if that is the same, the most recently cast or most duration remaining) is strongest and gets the new area and the old spell gets pushed elsewhere.


I dunno, at 4 PPE a pop, letting each casting multiply the area of effect would be arguably worse than multiple saves, sinse a mage at a Ley Line can basically cast them indefinately.

Each new cast would just be adding an additional amount of area, not multiplying it. One cloud is 20x20x20. Two clouds would billow out to a little over 25x25x25. Three would do almost 29 a side. Yeah the area would get bigger, but not nearly as bad as you think it would. Law of diminishing returns and all that.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Dracolych68 »

Mack wrote:So here's a variation on the original question: Suppose Fred the Warlock casts multiple Clouds of Slumber along a long hallway where each cloud does not overlap.

If Wilber the scout walks down that hall, he has to save against each cloud he enters, right?

Yep.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Mack wrote:So here's a variation on the original question: Suppose Fred the Warlock casts multiple Clouds of Slumber along a long hallway where each cloud does not overlap.

If Wilber the scout walks down that hall, he has to save against each cloud he enters, right?


Well, yea? There's no real quesiton here. Would you have to save vs. each ward you step on on a long hallway? of course you would.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by flatline »

Mack wrote:So here's a variation on the original question: Suppose Fred the Warlock casts multiple Clouds of Slumber along a long hallway where each cloud does not overlap.

If Wilber the scout walks down that hall, he has to save against each cloud he enters, right?


Rules as written says that Wilber must make a save for each cloud he enters. However, that's boring.

The metaphysics of Conan says that once Conan resists the wizard's spell, the wizard has to try a different spell.

Palladium would do well to read the classics. The Conan stories would have sucked if the wizard could have just cast the same spell again...

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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Library Ogre »

flatline wrote:
Mack wrote:So here's a variation on the original question: Suppose Fred the Warlock casts multiple Clouds of Slumber along a long hallway where each cloud does not overlap.

If Wilber the scout walks down that hall, he has to save against each cloud he enters, right?


Rules as written says that Wilber must make a save for each cloud he enters. However, that's boring.

The metaphysics of Conan says that once Conan resists the wizard's spell, the wizard has to try a different spell.

Palladium would do well to read the classics. The Conan stories would have sucked if the wizard could have just cast the same spell again...


This sounds quite reasonable. RAW is arguably one way, cool is the other. Again, I'll refer back to the Druidic laws of magic... you failed once, so I am stronger than that spell.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Mark Hall wrote:
flatline wrote:
Mack wrote:So here's a variation on the original question: Suppose Fred the Warlock casts multiple Clouds of Slumber along a long hallway where each cloud does not overlap.

If Wilber the scout walks down that hall, he has to save against each cloud he enters, right?


Rules as written says that Wilber must make a save for each cloud he enters. However, that's boring.

The metaphysics of Conan says that once Conan resists the wizard's spell, the wizard has to try a different spell.

Palladium would do well to read the classics. The Conan stories would have sucked if the wizard could have just cast the same spell again...


This sounds quite reasonable. RAW is arguably one way, cool is the other. Again, I'll refer back to the Druidic laws of magic... you failed once, so I am stronger than that spell.

but save vs magic is not 'stronger magic' it just 'I'm reacting strongly.'

Besides….there has been one thing about druidic magic that bugs me when I consider it….where are the druidic magic spells?
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Library Ogre »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:but save vs magic is not 'stronger magic' it just 'I'm reacting strongly.'

Besides….there has been one thing about druidic magic that bugs me when I consider it….where are the druidic magic spells?


They're listed with the OCC. Just because Wizards do some of them too doesn't mean they're not druidic.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Mark Hall wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:but save vs magic is not 'stronger magic' it just 'I'm reacting strongly.'

Besides….there has been one thing about druidic magic that bugs me when I consider it….where are the druidic magic spells?


They're listed with the OCC. Just because Wizards do some of them too doesn't mean they're not druidic.

….
Really….stupid….magic ..powers…instead …of…spells…
(yes, I see the text in the level two powers. still stupid. No variables except for that.)

If I was GM I might just let a player take Shamanistic spells that would fit the class.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Mark Hall wrote:
flatline wrote:
Mack wrote:So here's a variation on the original question: Suppose Fred the Warlock casts multiple Clouds of Slumber along a long hallway where each cloud does not overlap.

If Wilber the scout walks down that hall, he has to save against each cloud he enters, right?


Rules as written says that Wilber must make a save for each cloud he enters. However, that's boring.

The metaphysics of Conan says that once Conan resists the wizard's spell, the wizard has to try a different spell.

Palladium would do well to read the classics. The Conan stories would have sucked if the wizard could have just cast the same spell again...


This sounds quite reasonable. RAW is arguably one way, cool is the other. Again, I'll refer back to the Druidic laws of magic... you failed once, so I am stronger than that spell.


So what if the Wizard Trio of Bob, Larry, and Ted all cast cloud of slumber on the same spot? They are 3 different wizards after all. Is that okay?
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
flatline wrote:
Mack wrote:So here's a variation on the original question: Suppose Fred the Warlock casts multiple Clouds of Slumber along a long hallway where each cloud does not overlap.

If Wilber the scout walks down that hall, he has to save against each cloud he enters, right?


Rules as written says that Wilber must make a save for each cloud he enters. However, that's boring.

The metaphysics of Conan says that once Conan resists the wizard's spell, the wizard has to try a different spell.

Palladium would do well to read the classics. The Conan stories would have sucked if the wizard could have just cast the same spell again...


This sounds quite reasonable. RAW is arguably one way, cool is the other. Again, I'll refer back to the Druidic laws of magic... you failed once, so I am stronger than that spell.


So what if the Wizard Trio of Bob, Larry, and Ted all cast cloud of slumber on the same spot? They are 3 different wizards after all. Is that okay?


Sure.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Glistam »

Mark Hall wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:
flatline wrote:
Mack wrote:So here's a variation on the original question: Suppose Fred the Warlock casts multiple Clouds of Slumber along a long hallway where each cloud does not overlap.

If Wilber the scout walks down that hall, he has to save against each cloud he enters, right?


Rules as written says that Wilber must make a save for each cloud he enters. However, that's boring.

The metaphysics of Conan says that once Conan resists the wizard's spell, the wizard has to try a different spell.

Palladium would do well to read the classics. The Conan stories would have sucked if the wizard could have just cast the same spell again...


This sounds quite reasonable. RAW is arguably one way, cool is the other. Again, I'll refer back to the Druidic laws of magic... you failed once, so I am stronger than that spell.


So what if the Wizard Trio of Bob, Larry, and Ted all cast cloud of slumber on the same spot? They are 3 different wizards after all. Is that okay?


Sure.

If you're in a position where you have to fight three Wizards and each of them can cast a Cloud of Slumber at you then you have likely made some terrible choices in your life.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by eliakon »

To be honest?
This is one of those areas where I would use my GM powers and rule on a case by case basis. My main criteria would be
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2) "Is this an attempt to munch the system"
3) "Is this, in this situation fair"
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Myrrhibis »

I'm leaning towards #2 with that 6b of increasing save slightly.

We've done this a time or two in my group, and it has worked well. And the players didn't spam more than 2-3 casts.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Axelmania »

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Axelmania wrote:I like the idea of treating it like a literal cloud so initially you might get the condensed vapours and needing to save against both spells, but then they spread out or something into a wider area effect.

Mayber the spell with the higher strength (or if that is the same, the most recently cast or most duration remaining) is strongest and gets the new area and the old spell gets pushed elsewhere.


I dunno, at 4 PPE a pop, letting each casting multiply the area of effect would be arguably worse than multiple saves, sinse a mage at a Ley Line can basically cast them indefinately.


It would be additive area so it's not as extreme as say, adding to the radius each time.

To use the example of a 1st level wizard parked on a ley line (and using the 6 PPE version instead of warlock's 4 on page 83 of Heart of Magic instead of the 17 PPE version on page 86) assuming they can draw 10 PPE from the line once per melee round (personally I think we should charge a melee action to do that, since it isn't described as a passive ability) he would be able to cast a cloud of slumber every single melee round indefinitely without problems.

If he wanted to cast 2 per round then he'd lose 2 PPE per round. Even though Heart of Magic clarifies that level 1 to 2 spells can be cast in a single melee action, this doesn't actually override the "2 per melee round" limit for level 1 to 8 spells from page 184 of Palladium Fantasy, so we'll stick there.

Of course, wizards don't start with combat training so per page 46 would be limited to 1 action per round (alternating between casting cloud of slumber and drawing from the ley line) until 6th level, and only at 12th level would they be able to fully maximize a 2-cloud 1-draw system. I'm sure I'll hear 'drawing doesn't cost an action' but I think it should unless we're told it's automatic.

Troll Wizards would be better off for their extra melee attack. Strangely I can't find a bonus atack for Wolfen/Coyle on 311/312 even though they had this in the Rifts Conversion Book while the Troll didn't.

Faster casting would be quicker attained for a hand to hand skill, getting them 3 attacks by level 4.

Since I'd like to stick with a 1st level wizard (since it's less alarming what 4th level characters can do) we'll use a Troll Wizard with HtH Basic so he can have 3 attacks and fully optimize with 2 clouds / 1 ley-draw per round.

Cloud of Slumber lasts 1 minute, so at best (cast your spells at the end of the first melee and the begining of the last melee) you might manage 8 clouds together simultaneously before the first expire in the 5th melee round.

A 20x20x20 foot cloud is 8000 cubic feet. Adding this together you get 64000 cubic feet. The cube route of that is 40, so all he's really done is doubled the measurements of his cloud for all that work.

It does tend to get more dangerous with higher durations and longer levels. Moving up to the 4th level wizards (all non-Trolls who can manage 3 actions to maximize casting) being able to keep the clouds around for 4 minutes means that with 8clouds/min they can have 32 together simultaneously. 8000 cubic feet x 32 is 256,000 cubic feet, and the cube route of this is 63.496042 so by then they will have managed to slightly more than triple the size of the cloud.

Personally, rather than make 1 big cloud this way, I'd probably want to spread out my clouds, maybe form a straight light with them instead of one big blob, to make it harder for enemies to go around it.

The primary advantage I can see with a big blob is that it could make it harder to drag people out of it, because the way I'd want to do that is with a lasso so I could pull them out without entering the cloud, and a thicker cloud means you have to make a longer toss, making it harder to aim and more time needed to drag them out.

Another advantage, if the GM allows, is to allow this strategy to slowly let you push beyond the 90 foot range of the cloud. To use the example of the 1st level Troll Wizard, with a single cloud centred 90 feet away with a 20 foot diameter, he can only hit an opponent 100 feet away, but if you allow it to billow out additively as he stacks cumulative clouds, then after a minute by the time he gets up to 8 clouds forming a 40-foot diameter cloud, this could let him target an enemy 110 feet away.

It doesn't seem that unbalancing to let this happen, considering how much it would take to get that small amount of extra range.

Hm... I forgot to take into account that on a ley line you get a 50% boost to duration and range. If someone wants to redo that taking this into account, feel free, but it wouldn't make that huge a different. Not even all that much a difference with the doubled range/duration if you want to risk parking on a nexus.

Cloud of Slumber at best can be thrown 160 feet away (being within 200 feet of a nexus, barring the decadal solar eclipse tripling event) which simply means instead of being able to match a sling for range and losing to spears and pistol crossbows, you can beat the spears/pistol-bows and still lose to javelins (300ft) or short bows and light crossbows' superior 340 foot ranges.

With all the easily-slung magic it's probably hard to keep a shelter maintained along a ley line so there's not likely to be much cover to rely on while you're pumping out magic to protect you from ranged attacks. I guess renewing Armor of Ithan every minute isn't that troublesome anymore though. At least it still takes half your attacks (which I guess is 1 until level 4 for basic/expert non-trolls, not sure how it works with 3 actions) meaning it's possible to interrupt.

That's one great thing about energy field, you can line up as many as you like in front of you (and impede enemy chases to gain distance if it's through a narrow area that an 8-foot span could block) and save Armor of Ithan to keep you safe as you re-cast.

Increase Weight has better range so anyone using a Cloud of Slumber strat might have to strip naked to avoid being weighted down by gear targetted by this.

If you're parked on a ley line nexus then Energy Bolt (normally not much of a competitor for Armor of Ithan considering PPE costs) comes into its own, since the 4D6>8D6 is then doubled, so instead of 14 average damaeg you're talking 56 average damage, meaning 112 per 10 PPE compared to the 110 SDC that Armor of Ithan has at first level. You'd be better off going with Energy Field which actually gets an SDC increase to 120 on ley lines and 180 on nexi.

Same with Fire Bolt, it increases to 7D6 on ley lines and 1D6x10 on nexi, and nexi double damage so that's 70 average damage per bolt. Energy Bolt's still a better deal at half the cost and better range levels 1-9, usually harder to dodge... although I guess since Fire Bolt actually makes a strike roll that's a chance to get a natural 20 to double it, which is nice. Downside being Impervious to Fire is cheap and anyone doing a magic duel on a ley line is going to put that up early on so that anyone bringing Circle of Fire into effect won't bar them.

Magic Net really comes into its own. By 5th level it will have a 100ft range to outclass Cloud of Slumber and unless the mage dodges he's going to be helpless, and it's cheaper to make than the cloud of slumber, and now with Wizards optionally getting a 4th and 3rd (and 2 each 2nd and 1st) they might start with this, or learn it by the time they've reached 5th level.

Control the Beasts is also bad news for people relying on Cloud of Slumber since it has a 70ft better range (animals 100 ft away can be sent 60 ft further) and you can send birds to peck out their eyes.

I'm not sure if you could do this with Animate Object, not sure if 60 ft is just the initial range and you can move outside of that after or if you have to stay in 60. Would be nice knowing how fast they moved, otherwise cast the Fly spell on them to get 35mph for 15 PPE (or Superhuman Speed to get 30mph for 10 PPE) if it's slow. No idea how much damage/SDC an animated broom has so casting Superhuman Strength on it first to give it +15 damage and 30 SDC and 24 HP is probably a good idea.

Higher-level mages might want to opt to control animated dead from 400 feet away and have them throw javelins 300 feet to get a 700 foot range, allowing them to attack enemies while staying out of range of long bows. You might even be able to Invisibility Superior, I don't know if commanding skeletons to kill people counts as engaging in combat... man ISUPERIOR isn't what it used to be, See Invisible works against it? PF201's version certainly sucks compared to Rifts Book of Magic 116.

Of course anyone relying on the spell See the Invisible with a 200 foot range is still not going to find someone with even Invisibility Simple if they stay 600 feet away. A good reason to rely on fully invisible Armor of Ithan since Invulnerability would give away your position with its glowing aura. Barring that, I'd be throwing Cloud Of Smoke everywhere so that you could see where they are by the movement of the smoke. Of course if you have a 'See the Invisible" amulet, it doesn't have a stated range limit so I think all the pro mages would have this so they could see invisibles no matter the distance.

Do you think it's possible to equip your animated dead, shadow beasts, mummies, zombies or golems with See the Invisible Amulets?

It would be hilarious to see 2 skeleton armies trying to fight each other while wearing 'Turn the Undead' amulets. I guess preventing physical touch doesn't prevent swinging weapons at each other... but at least they won't be punching each other in the face bone-on-bone.

Barring that, Magic Pigeon only requires knowing a general location and it can fly 30mph and probably tell you where an invisible guy is by delivering a message to them. That or using Second Sight which could also give you an approximate location.

At which point you can sprint over using Superhuman Speed and Cloud of Smoke the region and surround it with your skeletons with orders to throw javs at any movement they see in the smoke.

Would recommend casting Fly as the Eagle on your skeletons so they hover above ready to throw javelins in case enemy wizard tries to fly out the top of the smoke cloud.

Wind Rush could be a good counter at that, since it could disperse the cloud and let you move undetected... although by that the enemy wizard could be in range for their See Invisible to spot you.

Armor of Ithan is probably going to get whittled down by a combo of Fire Fist / Superhuman Speed / Superhuman Strength if the mage wants to go melee. Troll Wizards might love this.

For best PPE>damage efficiency, doing a bunch of Monster Insects on the ley line to send after your enemies is probably good, beetles being ideal due to AR/flight combo. This doesn't have eventual-depletion problems like mice/canines and you can bring more of your own.

I'd feel safer mass-casting that than Shadow Beasts since you don't have to worry about timing your cancelations.

Given the 25 melee rounds (4+ minutes) needed to regain the 250 PPE used for Summon & Control Entity, once you've lost these guys after a few days the cheaper 80 PPE control/enslave would be good for getting them back under control. Until you've done that, hiding inside a Protection Circle would make sense.

Finger of Lictalon would be a good way to beef up your skeletons before sending them off to do war. Perhaps atop a Phantom Horse.

Seems the "Wards" spell from HU/Rifts is lacking for PF wizards, probably to keep Diabolists special, that would be a major factor in PPE-soaked ley line battles if you had it.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Ice Dragon »

#1 is what I allow.
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Re: Spell Question

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

eliakon wrote: in the interest of game balance, and to prevent abuse I go with #2.


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