Learning new Psionic powers

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RainbowDevil
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Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by RainbowDevil »

Hi folks,

I'm still reading through all the threads here, and haven't found a similar question yet, but maybe I've just missed it/not gotten to it yet...

My question is are there any rules (presumably in an issue of The Rifter) about psionics gaining powers aside from their usual level progression? I'm particularly looking for ways for BtS2 psionics to gain new powers, such as by returning to their masters, researching, etc. I have seen many rules for magic-using types to do that, but don't know of any psionic rules.

Regards,
RD
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

No, there is no mechanic for psychics gaining powers outside the level up progression that does not involve implants or drugs.

Psi powers are powers not skills or spells that can be learned without gaining experience.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by Bill »

They can be imparted by some godlike beings, but not learned outside of the normal level progression per class. There are a variety of ways you could houserule the game to do these things. You could swap skills for powers, create a training process that trades time for powers, or you could even apply the multiclassing rules to allow players to gain additional powers by adding more psychic classes. Ultimately it's between you and your GM. As long as everyone is having fun, that's what's important.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Psychic powers are always Gained, never Learned.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by Bill »

Selected is the term used most consistently throughout the books, if you want to be pedantic about it.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:No, there is no mechanic for psychics gaining powers outside the level up progression that does not involve implants or drugs.

Psi powers are powers not skills or spells that can be learned without gaining experience.

There are a few more:
-genetic engineering (IIRC the Gene Splicers/Tech can do it, so can Lone Star)
-external Psi-Tech style devices (Noro, Gizmoter, Caliber-X, etc in Rifts), granted these aren't permanent
-exposure to a dimensional rift (in Rifts Atlantis has one such Rift, though there are additional side effects)
-opening their "Third Eye" (Rifts Psycape)
-get a symbiote/parasite (doesn't have to be Bio-Wizardry, there is at least one canon example in Rifts Psyscape that isn't, will admit this might qualify as "implant")

Now this list is decidedly Rifts centric, but probably adaptable to other settings and could involve plot points.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by RainbowDevil »

ShadowLogan wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:No, there is no mechanic for psychics gaining powers outside the level up progression that does not involve implants or drugs.

Psi powers are powers not skills or spells that can be learned without gaining experience.

There are a few more:
-genetic engineering (IIRC the Gene Splicers/Tech can do it, so can Lone Star)
-external Psi-Tech style devices (Noro, Gizmoter, Caliber-X, etc in Rifts), granted these aren't permanent
-exposure to a dimensional rift (in Rifts Atlantis has one such Rift, though there are additional side effects)
-opening their "Third Eye" (Rifts Psycape)
-get a symbiote/parasite (doesn't have to be Bio-Wizardry, there is at least one canon example in Rifts Psyscape that isn't, will admit this might qualify as "implant")

Now this list is decidedly Rifts centric, but probably adaptable to other settings and could involve plot points.



Thanks a lot for that! It helps greatly! :)

Regards,
RD
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by Glistam »

I like the idea of allowing a psychic who gains a new skill upon leveling up to instead gain a new power, but making that power start at "level 1" just like skills would. So powers you gain as a part of advancement always use your normal level, but powers learned in place of skills follow the skill restriction and will always be weaker in comparison.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by Library Ogre »

Glistam wrote:I like the idea of allowing a psychic who gains a new skill upon leveling up to instead gain a new power, but making that power start at "level 1" just like skills would. So powers you gain as a part of advancement always use your normal level, but powers learned in place of skills follow the skill restriction and will always be weaker in comparison.


I had some rules in place that made powers selected by skills start at level 1 if you used a secondary skill, or on level if you used an OCC related skill.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

ShadowLogan wrote:snip...
-opening their "Third Eye" (Rifts Psycape)
….snip

These are only add in Character creation and only to those raised and born in Payscape. While the text says outsiders can gain the "third eye" powers. Such a quest take 10 to 30 years in game time under the direction of a master to gain.
-external Psi-Tech style devices (Noro, (psi) Gizmoteer, Caliber-X, etc in Rifts), granted these aren't permanent
Much like a magic user "gaining" a spell cause he/she got themselves a magic item.

-get a symbiote/parasite (doesn't have to be Bio-Wizardry, there is at least one canon example in Rifts Psyscape that isn't, will admit this might qualify as "implant")
Yep implant.

-genetic engineering (IIRC the Gene Splicers/Tech can do it, so can Lone Star)
These are normally done in char creation and thus do not gain more powers then those given though the genetic changes.

-exposure to a dimensional rift (in Rifts Atlantis has one such Rift, though there are additional side effects)
If I am remembering it right exposure to that rift induces a total personality change.
----------------------------
Bill wrote:Selected is the term used most consistently throughout the books, if you want to be pedantic about it.

I l sampled a few of the the books (psyscape, RUE, HU2MB, PF2MB, NSMB) and none of the them used the term "learn" in reference to the char getting more psi powers. The closest thing to that is used in all of the PCCs & Psi-Power Cat. in those books is that the player is told to "select" new powers.

The term 'Learn' is use in conjuntion with getting new Spells.

The only PCC that uses the term Learning in it's stats text is the Psi-Mystic (aka Mystic) PCC. Even there it is in reference to getting new spells.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

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I will remind you that the OP is looking for rules for gaining new powers without level advancement. Criteria that is met by all of them. Now there are catches to some of them (3rd Eye, the Atlantis rift), but both set a precedent or can be used as a starting point to create variations on the theme. We also know examples exist that amount ot variation on the 3rd Eye, and they will take time to learn (I do not dispute that).

Yes GE can be done as part of character creation, but that doesn't mean it can't happen at later without a level up like an implant. Now GE might require one to switch class (ex, a Bradford test subject is turned into a Psi-X alien, or you receive too many bionic implants) in some cases, but there is nothing that really indicates that acquiring it must take place at character creation. The Gene Splicers limitations do include how long it takes for a procedure to be completed, which can apply for plot for the GM to have, but it can also be used by the GM to determine how long the procedure would take on an existing character.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

In another topic it was discussed if spending some time (days/months/years) meditating would gain powers outside the leveling progression. And the idea that it would just gain the char experience. However, this sort of suggested to me that a player and/or GM could craft a Ancient Master sort of char template that was a psionic AM.

It is just an idea :wink: ….probibily better as a NPC PCC.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by eliakon »

ShadowLogan wrote:I will remind you that the OP is looking for rules for gaining new powers without level advancement. Criteria that is met by all of them. Now there are catches to some of them (3rd Eye, the Atlantis rift), but both set a precedent or can be used as a starting point to create variations on the theme. We also know examples exist that amount ot variation on the 3rd Eye, and they will take time to learn (I do not dispute that).

Yes GE can be done as part of character creation, but that doesn't mean it can't happen at later without a level up like an implant. Now GE might require one to switch class (ex, a Bradford test subject is turned into a Psi-X alien, or you receive too many bionic implants) in some cases, but there is nothing that really indicates that acquiring it must take place at character creation. The Gene Splicers limitations do include how long it takes for a procedure to be completed, which can apply for plot for the GM to have, but it can also be used by the GM to determine how long the procedure would take on an existing character.

Powers Unlimited 2 actually explicitly says that people can gain genetic enhancements, and that if you get a small number you do not change 'class'

If we go back to TMNT in Mutants Down Under there is a skill (Dreamtime lore) that grants the Detect Evil psionic ability.

Unofficially there is a rule in R30 that you can trade skill selections for psionic powers

And of course the 3rd eye is officially a way to spend time on training that ends up with you gaining psionics.

There is also the possibility of using skill gaining rules to train in martial arts with the goal of training martial art power/psionics depending on the exact interpretation of those powers by the GM (its rather... contentious with differing opinions on if they are or are not psionic, and if they are or are not trainable)

For the truly obscure I would like to mention the Library of Tophet in Shadows of Light, which has books in it, the reading of which will awaken psionic power adding psi powers to both psi's and non psi's alike.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by grimmhold »

I go with yes. Psychic characters in general get the nerf bat beatdown ufc style. As just one of many examples, let's take the skill selection of psychics versus magic users. I mean an R.C.C. with total recall and speed reading as common powers, as well as spontaneously developed powers, has half the skills than almost all mage classes. Shouldn't they have at least, an equal amount of skills, since they don't have to spend time learning them? So yea, I go with they can learn new powers if given the time, as well as with mind bond and insert memory.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

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Psychic powers can be learned by studying and changing to an OCC which provides those powers.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

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Axelmania wrote:Psychic powers can be learned by studying and changing to an OCC which provides those powers.

That is a very liberal house rule you have there.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Psychic powers can be learned by studying and changing to an OCC which provides those powers.

That is a very liberal house rule you have there.

But one not without precedent.

Cyber-Knights LEARN to create a Psi-Sword and (as of SoT#4/RUE) Psi-Shield (1/2 cost).

Now I will agree that if the power isn't a fixed/default power (as the 2 CK above are), they don't get to reroll for new psychic level since even non-psychics exist.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

ShadowLogan wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Psychic powers can be learned by studying and changing to an OCC which provides those powers.

That is a very liberal house rule you have there.

But one not without precedent.

Cyber-Knights LEARN to create a Psi-Sword and (as of SoT#4/RUE) Psi-Shield (1/2 cost).

Now I will agree that if the power isn't a fixed/default power (as the 2 CK above are), they don't get to re-roll for new psychic level since even non-psychics exist.

I'm not saying there is "NO" precedent. Just that the precedents for it are the ''''exceptions'''' to how the rest of the psionics text is written, and with the assumption that a char can change from a PCC to another class. (The Errata for the changing class rules in the cutting-room floor only off-handedly allows changing to a PCC, without specific text allowing a char to change from a PCC. Of course there are Nah-sayers to this., that will say PCCs, which are specifically labeled as PCCs in PF, are OCCs in PF because of some typos.)

And Meditating to 15th level was covered in another topic.

Then there is the thing that chars would/should only change their class due to a live changing event, not the whims of the player that just wants to build up an Uber Character by gaining more and more power by keeping changing classes. Which is from my VP , is (one of the reasons) why the can't change to or from PCC clauses were written into every PF PCC to start with.

Even with changing to a psychic class does not fall outside my opening statement to this topic.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by Library Ogre »

And changing from, say, a Line Walker to a Mystic? Or from a Line Walker to a Techno-Wizard?
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

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Mark Hall wrote:And changing from, say, a Line Walker to a Mystic? Or from a Line Walker to a Techno-Wizard?

I would make judgement calls as the GM.
For reasons of story obvious to me, I would not allow a LLW to change to a (psi) mystic. Except for maybe if they were exposed to a certain rift. Then along with the personality change, they might get the class change to Mystic. But, I would make the change that they fully become mystics (while retaining the LLW abilities) in that they would loose the ability to research/develop spells and the ability to be taught spells. Only gaining more spells intuitively after leveling up.

As for a LLW changing to a TW…my ruling on this is unchanged from the RMB to RUE…the char would not get any psi powers when they developed their enchanting skills.
(personal opinion: I would rather treat mage gaining the enchanting skills of a TW as gaining a MOS rather then a class change.)

I am sorry to if these would not find favor with the M's out there looking for every twist and turn rules to let them power up their chars ad-infinitum/-nausium.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Axelmania wrote:Psychic powers can be learned by studying and changing to an OCC which provides those powers.

That is a very liberal house rule you have there.

But one not without precedent.

Cyber-Knights LEARN to create a Psi-Sword and (as of SoT#4/RUE) Psi-Shield (1/2 cost).

Now I will agree that if the power isn't a fixed/default power (as the 2 CK above are), they don't get to re-roll for new psychic level since even non-psychics exist.

I'm not saying there is "NO" precedent. Just that the precedents for it are the ''''exceptions'''' to how the rest of the psionics text is written, and with the assumption that a char can change from a PCC to another class. (The Errata for the changing class rules in the cutting-room floor only off-handedly allows changing to a PCC, without specific text allowing a char to change from a PCC. Of course there are Nah-sayers to this., that will say PCCs, which are specifically labeled as PCCs in PF, are OCCs in PF because of some typos.)

And Meditating to 15th level was covered in another topic.

Then there is the thing that chars would/should only change their class due to a live changing event, not the whims of the player that just wants to build up an Uber Character by gaining more and more power by keeping changing classes. Which is from my VP , is (one of the reasons) why the can't change to or from PCC clauses were written into every PF PCC to start with.

Even with changing to a psychic class does not fall outside my opening statement to this topic.

I agree changing class isn't something they should be able to do at a drop of hat. However changing class to get new powers would seem to be an ineffective way to acquire new powers based on the dual occ rules on the cutting room floor in how one chooses to handle the LEVEL ZERO aspect of the psychic powers (or magic) when compared to other options (which could depend on the specific setting and availability)
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

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ShadowLogan wrote:I agree changing class isn't something they should be able to do at a drop of hat. However changing class to get new powers would seem to be an ineffective way to acquire new powers based on the dual occ rules on the cutting room floor in how one chooses to handle the LEVEL ZERO aspect of the psychic powers (or magic) when compared to other options (which could depend on the specific setting and availability)

And you need to remember that what is in the PF section of the Cutting Room Floor is not the full rules set. The abbreviated rule set there are an Errata that supplement the published changing class rules.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:there are Nah-sayers to this., that will say PCCs, which are specifically labeled as PCCs in PF, are OCCs in PF because of some typos.)

Typos because they lead to conclusions you don't agree with? O recurs too often to be a slip of the finger. 99% it was a choice not a misspelling.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:chars would/should only change their class due to a live changing event, not the whims of the player that just wants to build up an Uber Character by gaining more and more power by keeping changing classes.

Are the Wizard/Summoner/Diabolists who become Alchemists that way because of life-changing events or because they wanted to broaden their knowledge?

Ideally it's cool if you had big dramatic "I gave up the pure path of a line walker to become a shifter because Republicans helped Josie Pro kill my pa and then some gods defiled his corpse" story behind a class change but it's not exactly mandatory.

Something like a Saloon Girl dropping her bar trade to become a line walker seems acceptable, it's pretty much what the public thinks happened with Gwenevere.

Mark Hall wrote:And changing from, say, a Line Walker to a Mystic? Or from a Line Walker to a Techno-Wizard?

In the first case I would make that an exception to the 'you can cast spells in either OCC' like you might allow with a Walker/Shifter or Walker/Twizard combo like the father/son Dunscon, due to Mystics' intuitive nature. I'd track the spells/levels and PPE pools separately.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:As for a LLW changing to a TW…my ruling on this is unchanged from the RMB to RUE…the char would not get any psi powers when they developed their enchanting skills.
(personal opinion: I would rather treat mage gaining the enchanting skills of a TW as gaining a MOS rather then a class change.)

I am sorry to if these would not find favor with the M's out there looking for every twist and turn rules to let them power up their chars ad-infinitum/-nausium.

Dude that's not exactly a barrier it just means we munchkins opt to start out as Techno-Wizards for the psi and then become ley-line walkers :)

There's precedent for not learning TW psi though due to some godly TWs lacking Telemechanics even though they have other psi, although gods sometimes do have unlisted abilities (what we're told not necessarily all-inclusive) so it might not outright support it.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:And you need to remember that what is in the PF section of the Cutting Room Floor is not the full rules set. The abbreviated rule set there are an Errata that supplement the published changing class rules.

It's the full rules set for Palladium Fantasy Second Edition. Essentially carried over the 1st edition rules except for minor things like stacking the OCC bonuses to skills which may or may not no longer be in effect since it's not explicitly mentioned either way.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:At the time of publishing that he meant the four standard psi power cat.s is what I believe the writer to mean. Because at that time the MB powers were Racially exclusive to M.Bleeders. (Yes, the text about TA's was retcon'ed by the africa book.)
That things have changed is not up to debate. And the LoUIC took effect when PB made the changes in the RGMG.
That I would keep the org. intentions of the writer is what I would do as a GM, yes. I find this whole argument stupid.

That someone else would allow a PM to take MB powers is also a House Rule because are ignoring the text that says that MB powers not just another generally available psionic cat.

Intent at time of publishing isn't something we actually know, nor would it matter. Temporal wizards were not intended to know necromancer spells because they didn't exist yet, but they are still able to learn them because they're magic spells.

Carrella was aware of the existence of Mind Bleeders when he published Phase World. Page 43 mentions "Psychic O.C.C.s: Mind melters and mind bleeders (see Rifts Africa for the latter) exist in most parts of the Three Galaxies."

Knowing he wrote the book with the mind bleeder OCC in mind (Carella clearly supported that classification, probably since he was aware of True Atlanteans) we can't assume he only intended "any" to refer to just super/healing/sensitive/physical when writing the Phase Adept, Phase Mystic, Noro Psychic, Noro Mystic Warrior and Royal Kreeghor.
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Re: Learning new Psionic powers

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

AS to Mack's questions, I answered them as he put them. And I started off by saying that "I would make judgement calls as the GM." which also would cover disallowing sneaky tricks if they got too blatant.

and...
Seams you posted something to the wrong topic Axey.
Besides that, the intent has been shown to you. Along with supporting information. It is just you choose to ignore it.
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P.S. If you do respond to the 2nd part of this post I expect it to appear in the correct topic.
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