Mages and TW enhanced EBA

[RockJock]

Do you let a mage, say a LL Walker cast spell magic without penalty while wearing TW enhanced EBA armor?

[Bill]

Why would I? The enhancements don't change armor in to any less artificial materials or any less restrictive.

[Slight001]

What bill said... I've known GM's who would but I'd not also I don't see the big deal the penalties are virtually a non issue as they are trivial and rather pointless.

Now I did allow a mage to get a suit of pa TW'd specifically to allow for spell casting, but that was a specific case with specific circumstances... and it wasn't cheap.

[Mack]

There's a couple TW armors in the back of Merc Ops that eliminate the spell casting penalties, but it doesn't say how it was done.

So it's possible but left to GM discretion.

Personally, I would count that as one of the "no more than four" enhancements a TW can add to one suit of armor.

[RockJock]

When I've played with various people over the years, and seen different versions and interpretations of the rules on what interferes and what doesn't it leaves more than one interpretation.

I know it is GM interpretation, but most things in Rifts are GM interpretation.

The strictest view is any man-made and/or metal armor over 50% of the body causes issues with casting. That would include things like Triax Plain Clothes armor being a problem, but might allow the Blind Warrior Woman's swimsuit without issue(which should have an AR, but doesn't). You can argue a polyester SDC armored jumpsuit would interfere with magic

I've seen people play where TW armor allowed casting without problem. I've also played with lighter, non-metallic armor such as Plastic Man, or the various stealth jumpsuits and cloth armors were allowed to cast without issue.

Then you have a smattering of suits, like the Merc Ops reference that follow their own rules.

That's why I asked the question. Thanks for the feedback.

[Ice Dragon]

Sticking to the old rules, I allow mages to wear EBA and cast spells.

[RockJock]

Thanks Ice.

[Marcethus]

I tend to be of the old school and let mages wear light EBA and cast with no problem. Because of this I allow any version of TW enhanced armor not to affect spell casting.

[Mack]

As for the RUE penalties, here's something from another topic:

Was pursuing RUE p188 and looking at the Body Armor penalties for mages. I know it's been previously discussed (by Killer Cyborg in particular) that the penalties are really inconsequential, but I thought I'd take a moment and apply a bit of math to them.

Over the long run, if a mage wears full suit of armor here's what he/she can expect to happen:
- All spells costs 120% of normal PPE.
- Damage will be 95% of normal.
- Range will be 91% of normal.
- Duration will be 91% of normal.

Of course, this is just straight math and doesn't include those times when the random penalty doesn't apply to a particular spell (such as the duration of a Fire Ball).

The first one (120% PPE) is the most significant, particularly if the mage is using higher level spells (which have higher PPE costs). In combat this may not be an issue as mages will tend towards single-action spells (levels 1-5) which have lower PPE costs. Out of combat, a mage should be able to take a few moments to remove enough armor and avoid the penalty.

The other three penalties don't seem all that significant, just from a numbers perspective. However, that ignores the descriptive text that says most mages are not physically conditioned to wear medium or heavy armor. I imagine most players will assume that their characters are one of the few that are properly conditioned.

Anyway, the straight math confirms what we've said before: the penalties really aren't all that bad.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Simply TW enhancing an Armor will not negate spellcasting penalties.

This is why, ironically, CS armor is the best armor for mages to pick. because CS armor is super advanced and stated to be made entirely out of mega-damage Ceramics, and the note on mages and armor state that Ceramic armor is natural and does not interfear with magic, it then follows that captured Dead Boy armor does not interfear with the use of magic in anyway. so just TW spruce up that.

Oh, and get a paint job too

[drewkitty ~..~]

Do you let a mage, say a LL Walker cast spell magic without penalty while wearing TW enhanced EBA armor?

Only if the armor was made of non-metal natural materials.

The only other option would be for the Armor to be permanently Enchanted by an Alchemist to be mystically invisible. Which would have to be a GM mod because they is not any magic within canon.

For the concept of mystically invisible see the Throughthe glass darkly book page 25 under the heading "Invisible to magic".

[eliakon]

Simply TW enhancing an Armor will not negate spellcasting penalties.

This is why, ironically, CS armor is the best armor for mages to pick. because CS armor is super advanced and stated to be made entirely out of mega-damage Ceramics, and the note on mages and armor state that Ceramic armor is natural and does not interfear with magic, it then follows that captured Dead Boy armor does not interfear with the use of magic in anyway. so just TW spruce up that.

Oh, and get a paint job too

Heheheheh
TW Deadboy, made from 100% dead dead boys.
Its necromagically delicious.
I am vastly amused, here have a cookie *offers zen cookie of amusement to the Munchkin Fairy*

[Marcethus]

Considering that the majority of MDC armors are made out of ceramics that might work in regards to ruling about casting through armor.

[RockJock]

Thanks for all the responses. I'll leave this as a table rules situation, based on on the different opinions.

Thanks again.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Considering that the majority of MDC armors are made out of ceramics that might work in regards to ruling about casting through armor.

In Rifts the rules changed from having negatives casting through metal armor to casting through Man-made materials. Which means that there are penalties to cast through ceramic armors

[Marcethus]

So in other words, mages can't really wear any EBA armor as 90% of them are made of man-made materials.

Why in the hells would they do such a thing? It makes no sense to so completely nerf the mages in such a way?

I know that the LLW has it's special armor and I suppose other mage classes could somehow get something similar made for themselves.
But what I don't get is the reasoning behind including both ceramics and plastics under that heading as interfering with magic.

Like someone posted earlier, given the way they state the restrictions even wearing a full polyester suit not even as armor would interfere with spellcasting. And if taken even further to its craziest literal interpretation even clothing is technically man-made, no matter the material as it has been modified from its original state, given that they include ceramics which is clay that has been processed. Since anything that has been manufactured is technically man-made. Even cotton clothing.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Because the players were having their LLW wearing the Plasticman Armor or the CS ceramic armor and casting their spells w/o penalties.

''''''Oh no…we can't have "mages!" being smart and picking armors that they can cast though. We Need to make sure our Pet Bad Guys wont get defeated by smart mages by wearing armor that make them look just like other solders. No We have to make them have to wear armor that makes them look like Mages so our baddies can target them…..''''''

[Marcethus]

Because the players were having their LLW wearing the Plasticman Armor or the CS ceramic armor and casting their spells w/o penalties.

''''''Oh no…we can't have "mages!" being smart and picking armors that they can cast though. We Need to make sure our Pet Bad Guys wont get defeated by smart mages by wearing armor that make them look just like other solders. No We have to make them have to wear armor that makes them look like Mages so our baddies can target them…..''''''

ROFL

Sadly that does seem to be the only reason for the rules regarding mages and armor

[Nekira Sudacne]

Considering that the majority of MDC armors are made out of ceramics that might work in regards to ruling about casting through armor.

In Rifts the rules changed from having negatives casting through metal armor to casting through Man-made materials. Which means that there are penalties to cast through ceramic armors

Except RUE explicitly retained ceramic armor as an exception

[eliakon]

Considering that the majority of MDC armors are made out of ceramics that might work in regards to ruling about casting through armor.

In Rifts the rules changed from having negatives casting through metal armor to casting through Man-made materials. Which means that there are penalties to cast through ceramic armors

Except RUE explicitly retained ceramic armor as an exception

Out of curiosity, could you remind me of exactly where it does so please?
If I beg and grovel nicely?
*begs and grovels nicely*

[drewkitty ~..~]

Considering that the majority of MDC armors are made out of ceramics that might work in regards to ruling about casting through armor.

In Rifts the rules changed from having negatives casting through metal armor to casting through Man-made materials. Which means that there are penalties to cast through ceramic armors

Except RUE explicitly retained ceramic armor as an exception

Out of curiosity, could you remind me of exactly where it does so please?
If I beg and grovel nicely?
*begs and grovels nicely*

I too would like to know where that is too NS.

[Marcethus]

RUE pg 188 specifically states man-made materials including plastics and ceramic plates. At least as of Third Printing which is what I have. Maybe (hopefully) they removed it in a later printing. If so I would love to know that as well.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Hmm, it appears to be a case of my memory playing tricks on me. Nevermind, carry on

[eliakon]

Hmm, it appears to be a case of my memory playing tricks on me. Nevermind, carry on

Bah
*sniff* There goes my dreams of a TW Deader Boyz armor outlet

[Shark_Force]

Hmm, it appears to be a case of my memory playing tricks on me. Nevermind, carry on

Bah
*sniff* There goes my dreams of a TW Deader Boyz armor outlet

if you can find a necromancer that can cast bone magic, you can potentially shape the bones of actual dead boys into armour that looks a lot like dead boy armour and provides similar physical protection (environmental protection, not so much... but that's what TW enhancements are for, right?).

then, your armour won't be made from dead dead boys armour... it will just be made from dead dead boys.

while you're at it, you may as well set up a soylent green factory next door.

[eliakon]

Hmm, it appears to be a case of my memory playing tricks on me. Nevermind, carry on

Bah
*sniff* There goes my dreams of a TW Deader Boyz armor outlet

if you can find a necromancer that can cast bone magic, you can potentially shape the bones of actual dead boys into armour that looks a lot like dead boy armour and provides similar physical protection (environmental protection, not so much... but that's what TW enhancements are for, right?).

then, your armour won't be made from dead dead boys armour... it will just be made from dead dead boys.

while you're at it, you may as well set up a soylent green factory next door.

Thanks this may have to be a thing for the next time my players visit Splyn

[Axelmania]

Ceramic ban is strange, don't ceramic clay pots go back 27,000 years? If baked soil is out it makes me wonder why leather (which is also man-made through the process of tanning) remains in.

[Marcethus]

It just goes to show that they are trying to nerf mages anyway they can.

[RockJock]

So how do you play this in your games?

[eliakon]

So how do you play this in your games?

Case by case honestly
It really depends on the flavor of the game I plan to run and how prevalent mages will be and a host of other issues.

My usual go to (if I use it at all) is that I make it more of a "if your armor isolates you from the magical energies" type thing so light suits, partial suits and the like are fine and heavy armors, EBA and power armor isn't.
To be honest I have ignored the rule in a lot of games with no real noticeable effect. Since the mages that were inclined to wear armor were going to wear it anyway, and since the ripple on effects; that my players spent an inordinate amount of time searching out 'caster armor' often to the detriment of other things, that the various caster armors tend to be either non-EBA or often very potent, etc. Made it undesirable in most games anyway.

I tried, once, to run it exactly like written with a full by the letter interpretation. When game bogged down in a discussion about at what point something was 'armor' and if polyester clothing hindered mages spell casting I realized that there was no real viable way to run it fully and started running it by the rule "What ruling for this suit of armor would make the most fun for this game".

[Marcethus]

So how do you play this in your games?

In Games I run I use tend towards a slightly modified version of the original rules. Mages can wear light EBAs but not medium and heavy due to a lack of physical training. Granted for those Battle Mage Types I modify it to medium armors allowed but not heavy. If a mage wants to wear medium or heavy armor I impose penalties to movement and in the case of heavy armor impose combat penalties.

[Nightmask]

So how do you play this in your games?

In Games I run I use tend towards a slightly modified version of the original rules. Mages can wear light EBAs but not medium and heavy due to a lack of physical training. Granted for those Battle Mage Types I modify it to medium armors allowed but not heavy. If a mage wants to wear medium or heavy armor I impose penalties to movement and in the case of heavy armor impose combat penalties.

So what do you consider physical training? Because the average mage wouldn't require that many physical skills to get into the 10+ range for PS unless he had REALLY bad dice rolls.

[Marcethus]

So how do you play this in your games?

In Games I run I use tend towards a slightly modified version of the original rules. Mages can wear light EBAs but not medium and heavy due to a lack of physical training. Granted for those Battle Mage Types I modify it to medium armors allowed but not heavy. If a mage wants to wear medium or heavy armor I impose penalties to movement and in the case of heavy armor impose combat penalties.

So what do you consider physical training? Because the average mage wouldn't require that many physical skills to get into the 10+ range for PS unless he had REALLY bad dice rolls.

I don't consider the ability to wear armor based on PS. It's a matter of what sort of training the class provides. A mage is generally a scholar type and more studious. They focus on knowledge and learning of skills and magic. Not on combat training. Now if the Mage is a Battle Mage type then I am willing to allow them to wear Medium armor with nothing more than the standard penalties for the armor.

[Nightmask]

So how do you play this in your games?

In Games I run I use tend towards a slightly modified version of the original rules. Mages can wear light EBAs but not medium and heavy due to a lack of physical training. Granted for those Battle Mage Types I modify it to medium armors allowed but not heavy. If a mage wants to wear medium or heavy armor I impose penalties to movement and in the case of heavy armor impose combat penalties.

So what do you consider physical training? Because the average mage wouldn't require that many physical skills to get into the 10+ range for PS unless he had REALLY bad dice rolls.

I don't consider the ability to wear armor based on PS. It's a matter of what sort of training the class provides. A mage is generally a scholar type and more studious. They focus on knowledge and learning of skills and magic. Not on combat training. Now if the Mage is a Battle Mage type then I am willing to allow them to wear Medium armor with nothing more than the standard penalties for the armor.

That still doesn't really make sense to me, this isn't AD&D we're talking about here. How much training does one really need to get around in medium or heavy armor? Particularly advanced MDC armor? It can't be so difficult to manage that it would be out of reach to any mage that wanted to wear it.

[Marcethus]

This is just how I run things in my game.

The one thing you are forgetting, in the case of advanced MDC armor especially EBA. It's full environmental. It covers the entire body. It's not going to be that easy to just put it on and move around. Yes it's a much more advanced version of a space suit, but it still takes training on how to move in it.

And I do not put the limit just on Mages, I also put the same limitations (depending on how the OCC is written) on many of the Scholar/Adventurer OCCs as well as many of the Psychic ones.

But, in order to learn how to use heavier armors I don't make it take a skill slot or any such thing. I make it a matter of roleplay. Either have someone in the group that is a warrior type and have them teach you or find someone in town when the group stops to rest for a time to teach them. I might even allow it as a background thing of something written up in the background of the character, though this tends to be reserved more for Mages that want to go towards the Battle Mage Sub-type. After all Mages can be many sub-types depending on their skill and spells chosen.

[Mack]

Marcethus, I like your approach. It's a question of a mage having spent the time and energy to become both comfortable and proficient with heavier armor.

[Axelmania]

Are there any regenerating armor spells out there yet which are suitable for a permanence ward?

[Marcethus]

IIRC Invincible Armor regenerates but I am not sure that it would work with a permanence ward.

[Nekira Sudacne]

IIRC Invincible Armor regenerates but I am not sure that it would work with a permanence ward.

It would work, by the rules all spells work. it would basically give you an eternally regenerating suit of enviromental armor.

which considering you could never take it off, would be kind of bloody inconvient really

[Marcethus]

Given that my familiarity with the permanence ward is limited when it comes to attaching Invocation spells I would have to research it before I can comment. And since it's not the main part of this discussion I will do so at my leisure (basically when I get around to it. Eventually.)

[Axelmania]

The armor would prevent attaching the ward once the spell was cast so you'd need to stitch the bone on first, cast the spell, then have the Diabolist activate the ward.

Of course if it were ever reduced to zero I think the spell would still end. It sure would be nice if the armor did continue to heal from 0 but I don't know a spell that explicitly does that.

[Marcethus]

I didn't think it was possible to combine Spell magic with Ward magic in using the permanence ward. Not something I have ever had a player bring up in my years of gaming.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I didn't think it was possible to combine Spell magic with Ward magic in using the permanence ward. Not something I have ever had a player bring up in my years of gaming.

There is an example in The Old Ones book where there is a Barrier of Thoth made perm with a permanency ward.

But otherwise it is up to each GM to what they will allow.

[Marcethus]

Ah yes, The Contagion dungeon or whatever it's actual name is.

I love that adventure.

[Axelmania]

Not just spells, basically any magic effect.

Only limit I know of is you can't stitch them to supernatural creatures or creatures of magic, so there's no way to do a permanent 'universal balance' on a dragon or anything that way.

Of course... a CoM/supernatural could wear armor with a permanence ward on the armor...

[Nekira Sudacne]

I didn't think it was possible to combine Spell magic with Ward magic in using the permanence ward. Not something I have ever had a player bring up in my years of gaming.

It says the permancy ward can make invocations permanent right in the text of the permancy ward itself. Not sure how your group missed it

[Marcethus]

I didn't think it was possible to combine Spell magic with Ward magic in using the permanence ward. Not something I have ever had a player bring up in my years of gaming.

It says the permancy ward can make invocations permanent right in the text of the permancy ward itself. Not sure how your group missed it

Probably because my group didn't play much in the way of PF. We mainly stuck to Rifts, HU and NB. With only the very rare and occasional trips to PF.