Pact-makers and Witches list

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Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Tor »

Seeing as how not every evil entity out in the Megaverse makes witches, I thought it would be interesting to make a comprehensive list (with help) of confirmed witchers (those who empower witches) and the witches themselves, where applicable. These can be specific NPCs or a group, so long as there is a specific reference.

This refers to what Mystic Russia later clarified as the "Pact Witch" to disambiguate from other types sharing the title, such as the African Witch, Gypsy/Hidden Witch, or Night Witch. Honorable mention also goes out to Shifters, Priests of Dark/Light in PF, Rifts Priest in CB2, Dark Priests of Wormwood, Night Priests of Dark Day Earth, Soul Harvesters around Psyscape, High Magi from Dweomer and others who link to supernatural beings in some way but are not technically witches.

Also as a somewhat related question, if you make a Major pact and choose Gift of Union, CB1 initially said you turned Miscreant but PF2 later said that you took on the alignment of your master. Witches have been explicitly limited to evil alignments, so what happens if your master is Anarchist, like Splynncryth or this one Demon Lord who was in Vampire Kingdoms (assuming he has witches).

I'm hoping if I left some out others could mention. I'm looking for specific witches or witch-makers, in the classic pact sense. When known I will open with the name of the pact-making greater being followed by the name of the lesser witch.

INDIVIDUALS
Ahriman + Armageddon Unlimited guy (Pantheons/Mercs)
Apsu + Ea the Sowki (Pantheons)
Drekkon + Kharkon (SA1)
Dweller + (Normal/Royal) Kreeghor (Dimension Book 3)

GROUPS
(As)Modeus/Mephisto the Deceiver AIs of RiftsHades and RiftsDyval (distinct from PF version) both can explicitly make unlimited witches
Demon Lords of Hades have assorted witches (per Dragons and Gods discussing their conflict with the priests)
Deevil Lords have witches (per Dyval dimension book, which conflicts with D+G in that it says they only have them and not priests, while D+G said they had priests and didn't mention witches)
Splugorth involve witches heavily in their hierarchy, and do not consider lesser pacts

Anvil Galaxy mentions 1 particular female witch by name, who leads an organization full of them in the UWW.

I'm betting there's probably a bunch of witch NPCs in the PFRPG world books as well, if anyone wants to throw in some page numbers there that'd be cool.

At the moment I find it odd I could only come up with 4 clear witch/master combos. Surely there's more (even halves) among the NPCs, something less memorable maybe.

Some general guidelines have been that AIs and 'demon lords' can make witches, and there has also been later mention of dark gods, which Ahriman confirmed, though it's made to seem like they're a rarer case compared to AI/demon. Mentions tend to overlook Deevil witches and I'm wondering if that dimension book was the first specific mention of them.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by eliakon »

-The AI that leads the Necrons
-Demon Planets are supposed to be able to do it
-The Night Lords
-The Old Ones
-Devy'Orhal from Pantheons
-Jupiter from Pantheons
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Tor »

Good point about Devy'Orhal. Meant to include when I first thought but forgot when it came time to write. Even though the leader of the Evil Immortals isn't explicitly called a witch, it is mentioned as having a pact, which all but confirms it.

Also good catch for Jupiter, forgot the explicit "priests" are witches mention under him.

One thing I always wondered about the Old Ones though... if we lack their stats (barring the CB1 estimations and original PRPG sourcebook nobody can find) then how do we figure out what levels of magic a gift of union provides? Also since we know Agu is anarchist, much like with Splynncryth it makes me wonder if that would be what you would be put to, or if Miscreant is the 'minimum' level of evil.

Do Night Lords count as AIs? I noted the Priests of Night but I'm not so sure they are witches. Do we even know if the Night Priests can lose their powers once given to them?

Forget which book has the Necrons, wondering if it's the Thundercloud Galaxy sourcebook that mentions about Demon Planets having witches.

Any idea if creatures like Tiamat or Cihuacoatl might be able to? I figure at least Tiamat since she's understudy to Apsu who can, and rivals with Ahriman who can.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:Good point about Devy'Orhal. Meant to include when I first thought but forgot when it came time to write. Even though the leader of the Evil Immortals isn't explicitly called a witch, it is mentioned as having a pact, which all but confirms it.

Also good catch for Jupiter, forgot the explicit "priests" are witches mention under him.

One thing I always wondered about the Old Ones though... if we lack their stats (barring the CB1 estimations and original PRPG sourcebook nobody can find) then how do we figure out what levels of magic a gift of union provides? Also since we know Agu is anarchist, much like with Splynncryth it makes me wonder if that would be what you would be put to, or if Miscreant is the 'minimum' level of evil.

Do Night Lords count as AIs? I noted the Priests of Night but I'm not so sure they are witches. Do we even know if the Night Priests can lose their powers once given to them?

Forget which book has the Necrons, wondering if it's the Thundercloud Galaxy sourcebook that mentions about Demon Planets having witches.

Any idea if creatures like Tiamat or Cihuacoatl might be able to? I figure at least Tiamat since she's understudy to Apsu who can, and rivals with Ahriman who can.

I don't think you HAVE to be an AI to make a pact, just that AIs are the most common makers of pacts.
Dark Conversions has the Nightlands Witch
A for the Old Ones, I would use the 'Chaos Witch' from the OO2nd ed, but if you needed to you can use the OO1st ed and use those stats.

Also, I will have to check but I am pretty sure that there is a witch of a VI in one of the books.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Giant2005 »

The Aunyains (South America page 152) and their God Aunyaina might qualift. Their description doesn't explicitly state the word Witch but it does detail a very witch-like pact and powers.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Tor wrote:Good point about Devy'Orhal. Meant to include when I first thought but forgot when it came time to write. Even though the leader of the Evil Immortals isn't explicitly called a witch, it is mentioned as having a pact, which all but confirms it.

Also good catch for Jupiter, forgot the explicit "priests" are witches mention under him.

One thing I always wondered about the Old Ones though... if we lack their stats (barring the CB1 estimations and original PRPG sourcebook nobody can find) then how do we figure out what levels of magic a gift of union provides? Also since we know Agu is anarchist, much like with Splynncryth it makes me wonder if that would be what you would be put to, or if Miscreant is the 'minimum' level of evil.


The Old Ones sourcebook has the Minotaur witch NPC which is a witch of an old one with the gift of union, just use him as an example
Do Night Lords count as AIs? I noted the Priests of Night but I'm not so sure they are witches. Do we even know if the Night Priests can lose their powers once given to them?


they are not AI's, but they can make witches, dark conversions lists the "Nightlord witch" gifts. It is a special form of power that gives the witch a form of their own matter/energy powers

As for the preist, it's strongly implied that the nightlords themselves do not grant preists their powers at all, but rather it comes directly from the The Dark. which would imply that they can be stripped of their powers, but not by the nightlord that ordained them, only the dark itself.

Any idea if creatures like Tiamat or Cihuacoatl might be able to? I figure at least Tiamat since she's understudy to Apsu who can, and rivals with Ahriman who can.


I am not entirely certain Tiamat is actually a god or AI proper at all, let alone able to make witches. I remember her as being sort of like the midgard serpent, a "Devine Beast" with godlike stats and attributes but not really a full set of godly powers.

Ahriman is explictly an AI/God hybrid with the powers of both, which explains why he can make witches.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

as for other ones, Vampire Kingdoms Revised say that vampire intelligences can make witches, and they have their own special rules, but that they rarely do so perfering to make master vampires instead.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by gaby »

Do Witches get ther own spells?
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Tor »

Originally all witches got spells, CB1 introduced 3 different pact types (which PF2 retained) so that you could only get spells from a Gift of Magic, or Union if your benefactor knew magic.

I figure the special rules for Vampire witches might be those 'Blood Priest' fellows in Arzno based on the Rifter?
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by SolCannibal »

Don't know if it actually fits in anyway, kind of a shoot in the dark, but... Aramis Knight, the Leader of the Grim Reapers cult (from Juicer Uprising 96-98), who seems to possess some sort of mental link/connection to Death of the Horsemen of Apocalypse, what AFAIK is not commonplace for necromancers of any level.

Also, in his "Alliances & Allies" it is mentioned one of the other cult leaders is Memtar the Destroyer (8th level witch of the Death entity), what confirms that, Aramis link notwithstanding, at least one of the Horsemen makes witches, if not all of them. Also, the Shifter Otto Schroder seems to have joined the cult after he contacted the Four Horsemen through the Tree of Darkness, what could also indicate a link to the entity.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Tor »

DUDE, I totally remember that Death Witch thing, but I thought I was misremembering Aramis and totally forgot about Memtar, excellent. If any apocalypse demon could do it it'd be death.

I don't think the standards for witchery are as strict anymore. Nightlands gave us a weaker "Demon Lord" who could plausible make a pact (named Red Flames Demon Lords in CB3) and Nightlords can do Witchery, and so can this little tri-snake bro in Creatures of Chaos. Not to mention some of the comparatively weaker Demon Lords in Rifts China when we compare them to the Hades ones.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Likely right. The bar for being enough of a Demon Lord to make witch's pacts is probablly much lower than the bar to gain prototypical deific powers.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by gaby »

Palladium fantasy,s Mysteries of Magic 2:Dark Magicks may add Witch only spells.
Maybe it show how ther Witch,s Master rewares if they success and punish them for failure.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by SolCannibal »

Tor wrote:DUDE, I totally remember that Death Witch thing, but I thought I was misremembering Aramis and totally forgot about Memtar, excellent. If any apocalypse demon could do it it'd be death.

I don't think the standards for witchery are as strict anymore. Nightlands gave us a weaker "Demon Lord" who could plausible make a pact (named Red Flames Demon Lords in CB3) and Nightlords can do Witchery, and so can this little tri-snake bro in Creatures of Chaos. Not to mention some of the comparatively weaker Demon Lords in Rifts China when we compare them to the Hades ones.


Yes, going by that, a supernatural force on about the same power level as an adult dragon - or at least a collective shared effort on their part - might be enough make it work.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by eliakon »

SolCannibal wrote:
Tor wrote:DUDE, I totally remember that Death Witch thing, but I thought I was misremembering Aramis and totally forgot about Memtar, excellent. If any apocalypse demon could do it it'd be death.

I don't think the standards for witchery are as strict anymore. Nightlands gave us a weaker "Demon Lord" who could plausible make a pact (named Red Flames Demon Lords in CB3) and Nightlords can do Witchery, and so can this little tri-snake bro in Creatures of Chaos. Not to mention some of the comparatively weaker Demon Lords in Rifts China when we compare them to the Hades ones.


Yes, going by that, a supernatural force on about the same power level as an adult dragon - or at least a collective shared effort on their part - might be enough make it work.

Except that the 'demon lords' in Nightlands don't explicitly get to make witches, The Screamer Demon in CE isn't a true witch either (it can link with one person per persona for a total of 3, and the linked person can borrow the demons Psionics)
I do not know the canon answer on if the Yama Kings and the lesser demon lords in china can make witches.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Tor »

gaby wrote:Palladium fantasy,s Mysteries of Magic 2:Dark Magicks may add Witch only spells.
This better not take priority over Sex Magic and War Magic. HoM made some big promises.

eliakon wrote:the 'demon lords' in Nightlands don't explicitly get to make witches
They are 'demon lords' and we are told demon lords can make witches, that's explicit to me. Each individual demon lord doesn't have to state the ability. It didn't say 'demon lords of Hades' or 'Greater Demon Lords'.

eliakon wrote:The Screamer Demon in CE isn't a true witch either
No, but the Screamer Witches they make pacts with are.
eliakon wrote:(it can link with one person per persona for a total of 3, and the linked person can borrow the demons Psionics)
Those are simply unique pact powers, much like the unique pact powers a Nightlord may offer.

eliakon wrote:the lesser demon lords in china can make witches.
Excellent, need to read more into this, anyone recall what pages in Rifts China mention witches?
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:
eliakon wrote:the 'demon lords' in Nightlands don't explicitly get to make witches
They are 'demon lords' and we are told demon lords can make witches, that's explicit to me. Each individual demon lord doesn't have to state the ability. It didn't say 'demon lords of Hades' or 'Greater Demon Lords'.

That's fine, and you can hold that view. I am a bit more leery of it, considering the wide array of things called 'demon lords' Especially if these 'demon lords' serve other 'demon lords' that are the real powers behind the Red Flames. Different strokes and all that.

Tor wrote:
eliakon wrote:The Screamer Demon in CE isn't a true witch either
No, but the Screamer Witches they make pacts with are.
eliakon wrote:(it can link with one person per persona for a total of 3, and the linked person can borrow the demons Psionics)
Those are simply unique pact powers, much like the unique pact powers a Nightlord may offer.

I see it differently. Its not described as a pact for one. The fact that it has to be spelled out as to what it is, suggests to me its a unique special power, not a general pact. And what ever it is, its limited to one person per head.


Tor wrote:
eliakon wrote:the lesser demon lords in china can make witches.
Excellent, need to read more into this, anyone recall what pages in Rifts China mention witches?

If you would have read the whole statement it was that I was NOT AWARE OF ANY CANON on if the Yama or the lesser demon lords could make witches. Not that they can.
Though the Yama Kings CAN offer their 'rebirth deal' which is sorta like a pact. except that you serve now, and get the 'reward' when you die.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Tor »

eliakon wrote:I am a bit more leery of it, considering the wide array of things called 'demon lords' Especially if these 'demon lords' serve other 'demon lords' that are the real powers behind the Red Flames. Different strokes and all that.
The lesser (aka "Red Flames") Demon Lords do serve the Lords of Hades, true. But Lords of Hades themselves all serve Modeus to some degree, and are all (save owl and chicken) not proficient with deific abilities. Nightlords similarly are in service to Moloch, and Old Ones serve the Great Old Ones who serve(d) THE greates Old One (Xy).

eliakon wrote:
Tor wrote:
eliakon wrote:Screamer Demon in CE isn't a true witch
they make pacts
I see it differently. Its not described as a pact for one.
Creatures of Chaos page 29 left column second paragraph "...linking its foul essence .. to create Screamer Witches .. in exchange for their loyal servitude. Once the pact and mental link is made..."

eliakon wrote:The fact that it has to be spelled out as to what it is, suggests to me its a unique special power, not a general pact. And what ever it is, its limited to one person per head.
Gift of the Nightlords isn't a general pact either... but it is one. Being able to bestow unique pact powers doesn't negate witchery. Limitations don't either. So far as we know, only the (As)Modeus and Mephisto the Deceiver AIs from original CB1 are the only ones who can explicitly make 'unlimited' witches. The implication for those who lack the disclaimer being that they have some unknown limitation for GMs to fudge if they think it's relevant.

eliakon wrote:If you would have read the whole statement it was that I was NOT AWARE OF ANY CANON on if the Yama or the lesser demon lords could make witches. Not that they can. Though the Yama Kings CAN offer their 'rebirth deal' which is sorta like a pact. except that you serve now, and get the 'reward' when you die.
Ah sorry, my enthusiasm got the better of me. Yeah I'm inclined to think that any 'Demon Lord' in China can make a pact. As opposed to just being a Greater Demon.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by gaby »

Alien Intelligence like the One call Jupiter from Rifts conversion book two:Pantheons of the Megaverse can also make Pact Witch.

The thing is How do make Pact Witch different from each other?
I would add a Special ability that mimic one of the Alien or Demon lord that make a pact with.
Any ideas?
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

gaby wrote:Alien Intelligence like the One call Jupiter from Rifts conversion book two:Pantheons of the Megaverse can also make Pact Witch.

The thing is How do make Pact Witch different from each other?
I would add a Special ability that mimic one of the Alien or Demon lord that make a pact with.
Any ideas?


The infernal immortals pact from mystic china littearlly makes the person more demon-like, but is not a witch's pact.

I would also suggest making a seperate topic, as this is pretty far off from the origional's.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Tor »

Not a witch's pact, but it is a pact with a demon... and possibly with one who is ranked as an overLORD so... there probably should be benefits to Damned Immortals pacting with an Overlord compared to a lowest-ranking Infernal, so giving them witch powers to stack with the standard DI ones would be okay.

Excepting where we've been given unique gifts (Nightlands "Gift of the Nightlords") the only major difference tends to be if you opt for the Gift of Union since what you get there depends on the master's abilities.

Has anyone seen anything anywhere preventing pact-stacking? Like if a witch made contracts with 2 masters and kept each in the dark about the other.

Also not clear if masters are able to cancel a pact if the terms are fulfilled (like if you gave over your kid, killed their enemy). I know it automatically happens after the 40yrs or if you cancel the 2 major ones.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:Not a witch's pact, but it is a pact with a demon... and possibly with one who is ranked as an overLORD so... there probably should be benefits to Damned Immortals pacting with an Overlord compared to a lowest-ranking Infernal, so giving them witch powers to stack with the standard DI ones would be okay.

Excepting where we've been given unique gifts (Nightlands "Gift of the Nightlords") the only major difference tends to be if you opt for the Gift of Union since what you get there depends on the master's abilities.

Has anyone seen anything anywhere preventing pact-stacking? Like if a witch made contracts with 2 masters and kept each in the dark about the other.

Also not clear if masters are able to cancel a pact if the terms are fulfilled (like if you gave over your kid, killed their enemy). I know it automatically happens after the 40yrs or if you cancel the 2 major ones.

I would think that the presence of a pact is detectable, if not automatically then when the master goes to modify you.....and thus a second pact is going to most likely end with a dead witch.
I am also thinking that the master can revoke the gift. Nothing concrete but the implication, to me at least, seems to be that its a bit of the master, and they can take it back if they want. I just don't see this as being some sort of enforceable contract.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Tor »

There are ways to detect witches but I'm not sure if all potential pact-makers would possess those abilities. I think it's reasonable to assume many competent AIs and gods would be aware, but some newbie demon lords might not notice unless they had an ability specific to it.

We do have situations of witches stealing power from the master (Sowki in Pantheons, Kharkon in SA) but that seems to occur because they were already strong, were hacking the link with extra PPE, and their master got conveniently whupped and they exploited it.

I would think that if you fulfilled your pact and the master tried to rescind the power that you'd have SOME kind of benfit regarding the battle to keep that power and force it away from the master versus if you had failed to meet your promises.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

Tor wrote:Not a witch's pact, but it is a pact with a demon... and possibly with one who is ranked as an overLORD so... there probably should be benefits to Damned Immortals pacting with an Overlord compared to a lowest-ranking Infernal, so giving them witch powers to stack with the standard DI ones would be okay.

Excepting where we've been given unique gifts (Nightlands "Gift of the Nightlords") the only major difference tends to be if you opt for the Gift of Union since what you get there depends on the master's abilities.

Has anyone seen anything anywhere preventing pact-stacking? Like if a witch made contracts with 2 masters and kept each in the dark about the other.

Also not clear if masters are able to cancel a pact if the terms are fulfilled (like if you gave over your kid, killed their enemy). I know it automatically happens after the 40yrs or if you cancel the 2 major ones.

There would be no point to the contract if the contract wasn't breakable if the terms are violated. I would imagine those kinds of specifics would be spelled out. remember, witch's pacts require one to write a physical contract out, and the witch must sign in their own blood. this is not optional, it's stated explictly to be required for the pact to work.

And that being the case, I would imagine that escape clauses are in the fine print, and most likely weighted to the demon lords/AI's being able to cancel the pact eairly once they feel they are through with the witch/got whatever they wanted out of him. And cunning witches might be able to wrangle in their own escape clauses to try to get out of once they feel they accomplished their goal. We are talking about a class that must be evil, so it's to be expected both to try to screw the other on terms if they can.

As for pact-stacking, I think the second pact maker would have to notice the presence of the first. not only are there magics to specifically detect witch's, but sinse a witch requires the being to infuse their essence fragment in, it's easy to imagine the second would notice the first wiggling around in there.

Mind, that's not to say it's stated to be impossible, I just don't think you could do it without them knowing. If they both agree, then nothing i've seen prevents it.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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I thought only the great pact of Union required merging with an essence fragment. I could see how 2 gifts of union would interfere, since they might fight for control over the body, but that would only come up if they were trying to control the witch simultaneously, and directly controlling a witch you're sharing the body of without permission tends to only happen when they're disobedient.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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Tor wrote:I thought only the great pact of Union required merging with an essence fragment. I could see how 2 gifts of union would interfere, since they might fight for control over the body, but that would only come up if they were trying to control the witch simultaneously, and directly controlling a witch you're sharing the body of without permission tends to only happen when they're disobedient.


Ah, I had misremembered. You are correct. for the gift of power and gift of union (and of the Nightlords), the essence fragment merely anchors itself to some form of animal, which becomes the witches demon familiar and all the witch's power is channeled through this. it is only the gift of union that inhabits the host body directly.

Still, that would make it somewhat difficult, since both pact-givers would have to have a demon familiar they are activly possessing hanging around the witch, there's a real chance they'd notice eventually, especially sinse both familiars can talk and likely overhear the other doing likewise.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Tor »

I'm thinking in your third sentence you meant 'power and magic' not 'power and union' :)

Witch entries have never been very consistent or clear about familiars. Demon Familiars are mentioned as something only those who make Greater Pacts get at level 2... yet they're listed as something you get under the Gift of Magic as well (without a level limit) implying that a level 1 witch who made a minor pact and chose GoM would get a demon familiar...

Not only that, but it mentions normal familiars too, supposedly something that witches who make lesser pacts get at level 2 instead of the Demon Familiar. But if you don't get them until then... how can getting the gift require a familiar if you have the powers right away and no familiar?

Heck, it even mentions that if your familiar dies on you, your master gets mad and won't give you a new one. No mention of the powers going away due to the familiar death though.

Personally I think this means we just ignore the part about familiars being an anchor, and that they are added OPTIONAL bonuses for witches. I think some witches may opt out of having 1, not liking the invasion of privacy or the risk of permanently losing life if it dies on them.

I know the Knife Master lacks a familiar in Phase World. Trying to think of some other witches who lack familiars... I know Kharkon/Ea don't, but they made Union pacts so that could be why. I'm pretty sure you can get a Demon Familiar at Lvl2 even if you make Union though.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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As an aside - and i don't know if really important - but Rasputin the Grey, High Lord of the Guild for the Gifted (14th level Shifter), from Ciudad Juarez (Vampire Kingdoms) is linked to a supernatural intelligence known as the Grey One, Lord of the Shadows; origin and powers unknown to all but Rasputin.

As an aside the book says "the Old Russian Empire is his native land", so if Rasputin met the entity there, in Mexico or anywhere along the mysterious path that led him there, is up for grabs.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Tor »

I just discovered a new one in Library of Bletherad. There's a list of 6 named demon/deevil lords (lesser ones, like the ones in Nightlands, not the 'Greater' ones in D+G) and Tentac is mentioned as having witches.

Makes me wonder how you make a pact with something that communicates nonverbally... he just sends a vision of what he wants you to do?
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:I just discovered a new one in Library of Bletherad. There's a list of 6 named demon/deevil lords (lesser ones, like the ones in Nightlands, not the 'Greater' ones in D+G) and Tentac is mentioned as having witches.

Makes me wonder how you make a pact with something that communicates nonverbally... he just sends a vision of what he wants you to do?

Good find! I am now willing to believe that minor demon lords like those in Nightlands can have witches. (probably a smaller number than one of the 'big leagues' but any small number is greater than zero....)
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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As an aside that might or not be relevant depending on one's point of view, vampire intelligences make no witches but do spread innumerable fragments of their essence in the form of master & other kinds of vampires, demonic familiar & stuff - but when you take an actual hard look at then, are only a little better than most adult dragons, in some cases (Great Horned Dragons & Thunder Lizards come to mind) not even that.

Red Flame and Ravenous demon lords certainly fit that same power scale based on their stats.

Honestly, the more i think about this, the more i'm tempted to make some "draconians"/dragon-touched/etc as an alternative to Dragon Juicers or somesuch in my games. Seriously worth tinkering out with.

Question: who are the "Demon Lords of Credia"? Know i have heard of them but can't really remember anything of use.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

Unread post by Tor »

I was already willing to believe, but this ammo is indeed nice. Of course... the other 2 deevil lords and 3 demon lords are not mentioned as having witches, so I don't know if they would also be capable of having them.

It is worth noting that Tentac (in spite of having stats closer to the others than to the Greater Lords in D+G) is mentiong as being lesser ONLY because he doesn't socialize, so that could be a way of saying that he is at the power-level of Great Lord (even if the stats don't really agree) and Lesser Lord is merely semantics, and that's why he can do witchery. If they ever came out with an explicit statement saying only Greater Lords can witch it up, it wouldn't necessarily conflict, I mean.

I'm wondering how you become a Deevil at all if you don't even communicate with other Deevils... that Tentac is a mysterious guy. Also utterly terrifying. One of the few ways in the Megaverse to permanently die.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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Also, on the witches are evil thing. Agu, the Old One of Life, is anarchist. So he might insist on his witches being anarchist.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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I dunno, seems like Anarchists might be okay working with Miscreants.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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Tor wrote:I dunno, seems like Anarchists might be okay working with Miscreants.


Well, it certainly broadens the alignement options a little either way.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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Little random bit of recently learned trivia that may or not be relevant to those who tinker with servants of the Apocalypse demons....

Memtar, according to a lady of the same name i recently met, is a female first name of thai origin. :P

So, supposing it's not a D-bee or from transmigrated society, that gives us a gender and place of origin (or at least descent) to the "devoted servant of death".
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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Lord of the Deep "Servants RCC" (WB7pg47) describes them as similar to witch character from CB1.

Nxyla (WB12) might count with his Harvester's as a type of witch/pact-maker.

The Kreeghor have a witch from the Dweller AI (DB3 pg31).

The Monro RCC (DB3 pg34) might be another candidate given if they study magic supposedly they are transformed and bound to an AI, possibly the Dweller.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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ShadowLogan wrote:Lord of the Deep "Servants RCC" (WB7pg47) describes them as similar to witch character from CB1.

Nxyla (WB12) might count with his Harvester's as a type of witch/pact-maker.

The Kreeghor have a witch from the Dweller AI (DB3 pg31).

The Monro RCC (DB3 pg34) might be another candidate given if they study magic supposedly they are transformed and bound to an AI, possibly the Dweller.


The Monro's case is up to GM preference, having equal chances of being fact or merely superstition on their society's part, but yeah good job, the more examples the merrier.

edit: decided to add this due to its undeniable relevance to the matters brought up in the topic.

A supernatural being, the Maelstrom-Maker (CS Navy, pg.107) is considered a greater demon or even a godling. As such, it possesses great magical abilities and supernatural powers.
One such power is to make a Witchery Pact to create a Sea Witch (one per level of the monster's experience). These foul human and D-bee servants of evil can be male or female,
but must devote themselves to a life of inflicting sorrow, suffering and evil into the world.

Just so we can be certain of what we are talking about and that it ain't a misnomer, let me show this:

CS Navy, pg.108 wrote:Create Sea Witch: The Sea Witch is fundamentally the same as the Witch O.C.C. described in Rifts® Conversion Book (One), except any spell casting abilities will be selected from either Water Elemental spells or Ocean Magic spells, and the Sea Witch gets the additional power to hold his or her breath one minute per each P.E. point and survive depths of 100 feet (30.5 m) per each M.E. point. The creature can only make one witch per level of its experience.


Overall, that combined with the fact the Maelstrom-Maker's stats seem to be comparable to those of most greater demons or deevils, seems to lower considerably the bar for pact-making, though in a limited fashion.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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CS Navy has more than damage for nukes? Demons? Must take a closer look
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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Tor wrote:CS Navy has more than damage for nukes? Demons? Must take a closer look


World is full of surprises, no? Makes me wonder if i missed anything juicy and unusual in CS War Machine... :P
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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Tor wrote:CS Navy has more than damage for nukes? Demons? Must take a closer look


CS Navy is what told me that the CS took over what used to be Beaumont, Texas... which would be less surprising, if the open city of Houstown wasn't 70 miles from Beaumont.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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Mark Hall wrote:
Tor wrote:CS Navy has more than damage for nukes? Demons? Must take a closer look


CS Navy is what told me that the CS took over what used to be Beaumont, Texas... which would be less surprising, if the open city of Houstown wasn't 70 miles from Beaumont.


Maybe a bit too close of the "heart of the empire" for confort, no?
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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Yeah. It significantly affected the writing of Rifts: Houstown.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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Well I allow Making Pact Witch as a natural abilities for homegrowend Alien intelligences and Demon Lords.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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gaby wrote:Well I allow Making Pact Witch as a natural abilities for homegrowend Alien intelligences and Demon Lords.


It's fair - truth be told the usual assumption in the books seem to be that any alien intelligence can do so, with the matter being maybe a little more debatable in relation to demon lords or dark gods. And yet things can be sometimes a bit nebulous, with some exploiting the heck out of them (Jupiter) and others being peculiarly silent on the subject (Zazshan and Splynn for example), not to mention doubts about how much power is "powerful enough" to count as an AI-level pact-making demon lord.

And so, to adress these and other possibly related subjects, this topic and list of entities that are definitely mentioned as having witches of their own in their service came to be. or at least that's my best guess. :P

But back on beings to add to the list....

- Would the Corrupt from FoM and the nebulous entity called the Liberator they seem to serve count?

- On the "honorable mentions" section, Siege in Tolkeen has Selkind the Metal Mage, a shifter from the kingdom's Council linked not to an individual Supernatural Intelligence but a collective, the Drolian Council, the governing body of some extradimensional "cyber-TW" civilization. That's one group that could potentially do nasty, nasty things indeed if some of the Daemonix fell in their hands after the Tolkeen War. :twisted:
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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I view making a witch as a learned ability for most creatures who can do it. Gods might be theoretically capable (as Demon and Deevil lords are), but most don't learn the methods. Some greater demons and deevils, however, are capable of learning how, and creating minor pact witches thereby.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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Mark Hall wrote:I view making a witch as a learned ability for most creatures who can do it. Gods might be theoretically capable (as Demon and Deevil lords are), but most don't learn the methods. Some greater demons and deevils, however, are capable of learning how, and creating minor pact witches thereby.


It's an interesting way to work with it as a GM, might provide a funny story hook or two along the way too.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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SolCannibal wrote:Makes me wonder if i missed anything juicy and unusual in CS War Machine... :P

The first appearance of the Vanguard
Spoiler:
Brawler
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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Tor wrote:
SolCannibal wrote:Makes me wonder if i missed anything juicy and unusual in CS War Machine... :P

The first appearance of the Vanguard
Spoiler:
Brawler


Well played sir, well played.
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Re: Pact-makers and Witches list

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I have a new discovery to note.

Rifter 6 page 45 mentions that Stribog can power Pact Witches, he is one of the canon gods left out of Mystic Russia.
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