Pact-makers and Witches list

[Library Ogre]

Not so much, eliakon; as Axel put it, the 1e witch was essentially a Gift of Magic. The Gift of Power and the Gift of Union were later additions to the class, but there isn't too much difference between a Gift of Magic Witch and any 1e witch... less than there would be between a 1e and 2e Palladin, in fact.

[eliakon]

Not so much, eliakon; as Axel put it, the 1e witch was essentially a Gift of Magic. The Gift of Power and the Gift of Union were later additions to the class, but there isn't too much difference between a Gift of Magic Witch and any 1e witch... less than there would be between a 1e and 2e Palladin, in fact.

If the way you get it is different, and there are any differences at all in the abilities granted.....
...then yeah, I would say that it would qualify as its own kind of witch. We have already pretty clearly established that there are what? Twenty? Thirty? More? Kinds of witches already. One more wont hurt.

[Axelmania]

It's the only kind of witch where the ability numbers match up with the numbering mentioned in the Summon Greater Family spell.

Also has a note about no multiple OCCs though really that shouldn't matter if it's just baby-trading pact.

[eliakon]

It's the only kind of witch where the ability numbers match up with the numbering mentioned in the Summon Greater Family spell.

Also has a note about no multiple OCCs though really that shouldn't matter if it's just baby-trading pact.

That note would be kind of important if we are trying to claim that it is really the same as the regular pact witch...
...since that would indeed explicitly ban witches from multiple pacts.

[Axelmania]

The restriction is mostly RP though, as in two masters couldn't abide you being lifelong or body+soul bound to 2 masters... if they became aware of it. Sleeping masters aren't all that aware and awake ones don't really care if you renege on the deal of your previous one so long as you're loyal to the new one.

New pacts are 'firstborn child' whereas the 1st edition had 'firstborn son' as option so you could sell your 1stborn daughter in 2nd ed for a minor pact then sell your 1stborn son in 1st ed for a second minor pact.

The 'sworn to destroy a foe' pact also seems endlessly repeatable. I don't know if these are given out with the main aim of killing a foe though or of picking an undefeatable foe so that you lose your soul when you fail.

[eliakon]

The restriction is mostly RP though, as in two masters couldn't abide you being lifelong or body+soul bound to 2 masters... if they became aware of it. Sleeping masters aren't all that aware and awake ones don't really care if you renege on the deal of your previous one so long as you're loyal to the new one.

New pacts are 'firstborn child' whereas the 1st edition had 'firstborn son' as option so you could sell your 1stborn daughter in 2nd ed for a minor pact then sell your 1stborn son in 1st ed for a second minor pact.

The 'sworn to destroy a foe' pact also seems endlessly repeatable. I don't know if these are given out with the main aim of killing a foe though or of picking an undefeatable foe so that you lose your soul when you fail.

My point is that if the 1ed book says 'no multiple OCC' then you cant change OCC. Even from Witch to Witch. Now if we are arguing that there are multiple kinds of witches then the restriction on the 1st ed witch may not apply to the 2nd ed witch...
...which I am fine with. I can see these as being different kinds of witch (though I personally also do not see multiple pacts being possible)

And the question of if you can have multiple pacts is far more than just RP. It depends on the GM and their decisions on how the entities in question work, and indeed on how pacts go about providing their abilities in the GMs game.

There is also a question on power duration. There is some implication that temporary pacts also provide temporary powers. Meaning that if you make a pact to destroy a foe, and do destroy the foe your power will run out (at some point)....and you will need to go back to the well.

[Axelmania]

The 'no multipe' on its own could be interpreted as some nature of the powers, but the explanation given with it is clearly ignorable RP, as in the usual pacts (all-out servitude, no baby/enemy deals) do not involve things which conflict with that.

The only minor pact I see anything about losing the powers in is the 40 year servitude one. You don't lose your pact powers if you give up your baby or manage to kill the sworn foe, so long as you meet the deadline on both.

[eliakon]

The 'no multipe' on its own could be interpreted as some nature of the powers, but the explanation given with it is clearly ignorable RP, as in the usual pacts (all-out servitude, no baby/enemy deals) do not involve things which conflict with that.

This of course assumes that we are making the rules allow multiple pacts.
This is a classic case of A = B if and only if A = B. We are entailing the conclusion (multiple pacts are permissible) in (actually as) the premise (multiple pacts are permissible).
The statement Multiple pacts are permissible because multiple pacts are permisiable is circular. It is just as easy to say Multiple pacts are not permissible because multiple pacts are not permissible.
There is nothing in any book that I am aware of that says that you can have multiple pacts. But we do have a statement in at least one book that says you can not. That suggests strongly to me that multiple pacts are indeed NOT allowed.

[Axelmania]

It didn't actually say you can't make multiple pacts, no multiple OCCs in this case is a guideline explained because you can't serve 2 masters.

Since no ongoing master-servitude is required after fulfill the terms of killing an enemy or giving up your baby, no conflict exists, so those kinds are exceptions to this guideline.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Originally it was proxy servants who dealt with all the contract stuff, so that could be the case here.

Good point about the dreams though. Which makes me wonder if the Great Old Ones are doing bad things in the Dreamstream... maybe manipulating some servants behind some kind of shadowy or Dark facade?

I should not assume they are too asleep to dream.

One of the gods in Pantheons in the megaverse is explictly stated as being responsible for visiting the old one's prison reguarlly and psychically soothing their dreams so their nightmares don't run amok or risk waking them up.

[SolCannibal]

Originally it was proxy servants who dealt with all the contract stuff, so that could be the case here.

Good point about the dreams though. Which makes me wonder if the Great Old Ones are doing bad things in the Dreamstream... maybe manipulating some servants behind some kind of shadowy or Dark facade?

I should not assume they are too asleep to dream.

One of the gods in Pantheons in the megaverse is explictly stated as being responsible for visiting the old one's prison reguarlly and psychically soothing their dreams so their nightmares don't run amok or risk waking them up.

Brahma. There's even some stuff about how one may come across him with considerably diminished PPE & ISP reserves in certain occasions due to this.

[Axelmania]

How long do you think Brahma would have to stay dead for the Old Ones to wake up?

[Nekira Sudacne]

How long do you think Brahma would have to stay dead for the Old Ones to wake up?

he has to made daily investments of a few thousand PPE to keep them topped off (one presumes this is so if he is occupied they don't immediately fray), and has to vanish every six to eight weeks to perform regular matiance.

the details are not given except he makes copious body investments to keep the magic intact. We can presume that he makes such regular trips a bit more than purely necessary, so how long depends on how much slack you think he cuts himself. a minimum of 2 months if you think he cuts the timing to the bone, or else it really requires frequent refreshing before failing, or prehaps several months after that.

It also mentions that he is only "one" of the handful of beings tasked with keeping the prison running. Zurvan shares the task and it's possible he could pick up the slack. It's possible unnamed deities that do not associate with earth at all could also pitch in to help.

[Library Ogre]

Of course, it could also be that their protections are overkill, and that ceasing maintenance would take eons to have effect... Or that Xy would be one of the first to awake, and devise something better.

[SolCannibal]

Of course, it could also be that their protections are overkill, and that ceasing maintenance would take eons to have effect... Or that Xy would be one of the first to awake, and devise something better.

If Xy didn't have a whole different slew of problems to deal with, you mean - as an aside, i remember it being mentioned somewhere that Thoth was involved with the imprisonment of the Old Ones and the processes involved, so it adding him to the club along with Brahma and Zurvan should be a reasonably safe bet, i guess.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Of course, it could also be that their protections are overkill, and that ceasing maintenance would take eons to have effect... Or that Xy would be one of the first to awake, and devise something better.

Xy isn't to those prisons, so stopping maintaining them wouldn't have any effect. plus he can't anyway. He isn't an old one anymore, he's been permantantly transformed into something else.

Personally I find a mixture of the two to be more interesting. they created the prisons to be what they consider massive overkill, but are in fact only moderately adaquate to the task of containing the old ones.

[Axelmania]

Wasn't Zurvan friends with Second Stage Prometheans? Maybe they help too... what if Center is the cork on the bottle that is the interdimensional prison for the old ones contained inside Phase World?

Xy was never put to sleep, I don't see why waking the others would awake him, different processes.

The permanence of his transformation is debatable though, there are deific powers that let you change your primal form, Thoth is perfectly capable of assuming his original shape as an Old One if he only remembers it.

[SolCannibal]

Wasn't Zurvan friends with Second Stage Prometheans? Maybe they help too... what if Center is the cork on the bottle that is the interdimensional prison for the old ones contained inside Phase World?

Well, considering Center was actually the creation of some even older civilization they adapted to their own uses, i find that somewhat debatable.

Xy was never put to sleep, I don't see why waking the others would awake him, different processes.

The permanence of his transformation is debatable though, there are deific powers that let you change your primal form, Thoth is perfectly capable of assuming his original shape as an Old One if he only remembers it.

Except the whole point is Thoth evolved into his own person since and remembering Xy doesn't mean he would desire to return to being like that, quite the opposite in fact.

[Axelmania]

Maybe the older civilization was a race of beings like Zurvan or Brahma?

There are no guarantees about him returning to Xy, but also none he will stay Thoth. Rather than being either extreme, I could see him being some grimdark medium of the two, which is still pretty scary.

However much individuality he's gained in his millenia as Thoth, that could still be a drop in the bucket to the millions of years he had as Xy. I'm not confident Thoth will win out.

Your entire being existing as a result of being the victim of a magic circle, being mind-raped by your brothers, is bound to be upsetting. It can be hard seeing the upside of things.

His weakness as a mere god instead of a super-intelligence could be seen as advantageous since it promoted creativity (the deific rune word for example, is something Xy might not have come up with, never needing it to beat enemies) but his goodness being the result of a super-circle rewriting his mind instead of an actual evolution, instead of a genuine change of heart, could cause him to reject it.

[SolCannibal]

Maybe the older civilization was a race of beings like Zurvan or Brahma?

There are no guarantees about him returning to Xy, but also none he will stay Thoth. Rather than being either extreme, I could see him being some grimdark medium of the two, which is still pretty scary.

However much individuality he's gained in his millenia as Thoth, that could still be a drop in the bucket to the millions of years he had as Xy. I'm not confident Thoth will win out.

The text implies much the opposite, actually. Check it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Wasn't Zurvan friends with Second Stage Prometheans? Maybe they help too... what if Center is the cork on the bottle that is the interdimensional prison for the old ones contained inside Phase World?

No, the text clearly states that the prison takes place between dimensions and expliclty has no entrance anywhere from any dimension. there is no hole that needs a cork, they are essentially being held outside of time and space itself.

Xy was never put to sleep, I don't see why waking the others would awake him, different processes.

The permanence of his transformation is debatable though, there are deific powers that let you change your primal form, Thoth is perfectly capable of assuming his original shape as an Old One if he only remembers it.

Except for the part where his writeup explictly states he cannot do that even if he does remember

It's not that He's still Xy, but in the shape of thoth. it's not a metamorphasis, it's a transformation. his nature and essence and being was revoked and he lost a tremendous amount of his power. it says that even if he regains some memories as Xy, that power is simply gone, and can never be regained. He could potential pick an amorphus horror as his primal manifestation, but that'd be the equivlent of putting on a Fun-Time cuthuluu mask. it'd be obvious it's dressing without any weight behind it.

[Axelmania]

A closed entrance is no longer an entrance, in a way. I get the 'outside of space' thing, but also being outside of time would cause problems granting powers to witches. Wherever they are may have time passing at a different rate but I don't buy they can be entirely outside time.

Sol I read the text, he won't forget Thoth and it will influence him but there's never any guarantees someone will stay good, as good as unprincipled is.

Thoth has everything he needs to grow in power if that becomes his aim, and regaining the memories of the manifestation of power would clearly shift his aim back in that direction, if not to diabolical levels.

He and Belimar have PPE access that other gods can only dream about. It's either the Ibis or the Dwarf who will be the next big trouble to the Megaverse if they ever really want it instead of wasting their potential building doohickies.

[Nekira Sudacne]

A closed entrance is no longer an entrance, in a way. I get the 'outside of space' thing, but also being outside of time would cause problems granting powers to witches. Wherever they are may have time passing at a different rate but I don't buy they can be entirely outside time.

Sol I read the text, he won't forget Thoth and it will influence him but there's never any guarantees someone will stay good, as good as unprincipled is.

Thoth has everything he needs to grow in power if that becomes his aim, and regaining the memories of the manifestation of power would clearly shift his aim back in that direction, if not to diabolical levels.

He and Belimar have PPE access that other gods can only dream about. It's either the Ibis or the Dwarf who will be the next big trouble to the Megaverse if they ever really want it instead of wasting their potential building doohickies.

Oh sure, Thoth can become powerful and dangerous, but he's a long, long way away from "obliterating entire universes on a whim" levels of powel.

Also, why would being locked outside of time be a problem for witches? A witch works by splintering off an essence fragment that carries the power and awareness. the power comes from the fragment, not the main body as it were, and in fact can be completely severed without removing the power from the witch. there's even precidence for a witch cutting off the fragment from the granting entity and keeping the power, because the power is stored locally on the witch. cut the connection, you keep the power.

[eliakon]

For what it is worth ...
The book Old Ones has the internment site of the lesser Old One Slyth.
Eastern Territories states that the earthy seals that bind Netosa are under in the Eastern Territory near/under the town of Glade.

[Axelmania]

I have no fear of Xy obliterating the universe, that's not what the Old Ones' aims were originally (they just ruled over it) so I don't see why it would change. If he's going to get angry and obliterate anything it'd be the 2 other Old Ones who betrayed him.

I think Xy will happily keep us alive to enslave us utterly and mutate us into grotesque forms... for science.

[eliakon]

Shytheed on page 69 of Eastern Territories has a major pact with a greater demon.
Now I would speculate that not every greater demon can do this (other wise, to be frank... they would.) But it does sound like perhaps the sort of thing that a Prince might be able to do. And in fact Ba'Zal is "only" a Prince himself not a full Demon Lord.

[Axelmania]

Shytheed is interesting, it seems to imply she's kept her magical abilities even though she's turned against her master, which would normally result in you losing them per breaking the pact.

Another explanation could be that Demon Lords could still be Greater Demons and just Lords on top of that. In Dyval when it gives the steps for Regents to become Lords it doesn't say they stop being Greater.

[Library Ogre]

Demon Lords are to Greater Demons what Greater Demons are to Lesser Demons.

IMO, "Empower Witch" is a skill that a very powerful Greater Demon can learn, but, like Deific Powers, requires a Body Investment. Like Deific Powers, there's tiers of ability... Algor can do them all at half cost, others might take double, triple, or even quadruple to pull them off. As such, even if it's a Minor investment (I don't have D&G handy, so don't know the names of the different body investments), someone who CAN manage it, even though they're paying triple body investment, is going to be VERY careful about using it, since it weakens them so much. But, it could also be the first step in a gambit for power. Empower a witch, have them build a cult to you. Worshipers means power means that you can empower the next witch more easily. Or, with enough, start empowering priests.

[Axelmania]

Lesser/Greater are antonymous but I can't say the same of Greater and Lord.

Having a cost for empowering witches would be great, I'd like to see it applied even for gods/AIs who can in theory do so very easily. Unless there's a cost it's hard to explain why for example the Dweller doesn't just make an entire galaxy full of a trillion Kreeghor Witches.