Pact-makers and Witches list

[say652]

Do Mystically bestowed Abilities characters count as witches??
It's technically a pact to get powers that can be cancelled at any time.

[Tadrith]

No. Mystically Bestowed is more in the nature of a gift or loan. The person being Mystically Bestowed doesn't have to do anything to get it, wheres Witch's have to do something fairly horrible to get power. The method is similar but the details are different. Like how both Experiments and Mutants can both have super powers but an Experiments is not a Mutant and vise-versa. If your looking for something similar to a Witch look at Channeler on page 14 of Through the Glass Darkly the 3rd Nightbane World Book. It's pretty much a non evil Witch.

[SolCannibal]

I have a new discovery to note.

Rifter 6 page 45 mentions that Stribog can power Pact Witches, he is one of the canon gods left out of Mystic Russia.

Great, now we have two evil deities confirmed to being capable of making witches, instead of just "Ahriman".

[eliakon]

Sharr Cruant is a minotaur witch/Disciple of the Old Ones bound to the Old One Syth (Pg. 221 of Old Ones second edition)

Of note is that she has "All the spells known to the Old One- levels 1-15 at 10th level of power and proficiency" (She is herself level 2)

From the Bizantium book we get Iceborn Sea Witches. Who are pact witches bound to Netosa


Also of possible note is Hecate from Pantheons of the Megaverse who's favorite minion is a renegate Splugort High Lord who bound his life essence to hers

Apsu of course can have witches (Since Ea the leader of he Dark Council was one of them)

[eliakon]

I have a new discovery to note.

Rifter 6 page 45 mentions that Stribog can power Pact Witches, he is one of the canon gods left out of Mystic Russia.

Great, now we have two evil deities confirmed to being capable of making witches, instead of just "Ahriman".

It is quite possible that any god can make witches based on the text on page 7 of the Pantheons of the Megaverse where it says under Minions that one of the minions can be witches. Since witches tend to serve their creator and not others.....

[SolCannibal]

I have a new discovery to note.

Rifter 6 page 45 mentions that Stribog can power Pact Witches, he is one of the canon gods left out of Mystic Russia.

Great, now we have two evil deities confirmed to being capable of making witches, instead of just "Ahriman".

It is quite possible that any god can make witches based on the text on page 7 of the Pantheons of the Megaverse where it says under Minions that one of the minions can be witches. Since witches tend to serve their creator and not others.....

Good call, i had completely forgotten that passage.

[say652]

The reason I asked about Mystically bestowed Abilities is in my game. I house ruled anything that can empower Shifters or witches can also Mystically bestow Abilities.

Reasoning behind is. Shifters and witches are always magic.
In normal form a Mystic Bestowed is Normal.
Incredibly effective sleeper agents.

[eliakon]

I have a new discovery to note.

Rifter 6 page 45 mentions that Stribog can power Pact Witches, he is one of the canon gods left out of Mystic Russia.

Great, now we have two evil deities confirmed to being capable of making witches, instead of just "Ahriman".

It is quite possible that any god can make witches based on the text on page 7 of the Pantheons of the Megaverse where it says under Minions that one of the minions can be witches. Since witches tend to serve their creator and not others.....

Good call, i had completely forgotten that passage.

Its official. Page 173 of Dark Conversions

Pacts can only be made by Demon Lords, Dark Gods, and Supernatural Intelligences."

So yah....it looks like now any god of darkness can make them (non-gods of darkness would still need a call out, and this doesn't settle what is or isn't a 'Dark God' but hey....)

[Nekira Sudacne]

I have a new discovery to note.

Rifter 6 page 45 mentions that Stribog can power Pact Witches, he is one of the canon gods left out of Mystic Russia.

Dark gods are already stated to be able to make witches, and he's clearly labeled a dark god, so it fits.

[say652]

Looks like Mystically bestowed villians are gonna be a problem then. Lol

[Tor]

Demon Lords, Dark Gods and Supernatural Intelligences being the only ones capable of making pacts doesn't necessarily mean that every member of each of these groups is capable of doing so. For that reason I find it useful to find actual examples of it. Even if every member of each group COULD do it, doesn't mean they all do (like how roughly only 1 in 36 Infernals will make a Damned Immortal servant) so knowing the ones who explicitly do is useful for making chars based on them.

Also worth dropping that there is an exception: Deevil Lords, unless one takes the 'Deevils are another Horde of Demons' CB1 interpretation. Their deific abilities also make them kind of like Dark Gods too. Or even Supernatural Intelligences if you use the CB1 stats instead of Dragons and Gods versions.

What qualifies as a "dark" god" might also generate some murky areas too. Explicit "gods of darkness" are easy enough, but then you have evil-aligned gods, gods of death, gods of war, etc.

[SolCannibal]

Sometimes i feel like adopting some specific name/term for the natives of Hades much like Deevils is used for those of Dyval and keep "demons" as a more generic thing would serve to avoid lots of confusion. Or i could be totally and it might bring even more of it, who knows.

[Tor]

The term "Dyvalians" has appeared in the book which I think is far more appropriate to label its residents, which can include humans.

I think the religion was called Dyvag, too.

The chronicles also indicate that "Dyval", the realm's name, was that of the Supreme Lord prior to Sahtalus (aka Satan in PRPG)

I would use the tradition PRPG term "Devils" for the actual species. No idea why they added the E, when that was originally just the more common denizen.

Following the above format I would say "Hadesians" works well enough.

[Tadrith]

The term "Dyvalians" has appeared in the book which I think is far more appropriate to label its residents, which can include humans.

I think the religion was called Dyvag, too.

The chronicles also indicate that "Dyval", the realm's name, was that of the Supreme Lord prior to Sahtalus (aka Satan in PRPG)

I would use the tradition PRPG term "Devils" for the actual species. No idea why they added the E, when that was originally just the more common denizen.

Following the above format I would say "Hadesians" works well enough.

They added an "E" both to differentiate it from DnD as well as to not offend Religions of the 80s. Remember this was around the time DnD was under so much flack fro "Devil Worshiping".

[SolCannibal]

The term "Dyvalians" has appeared in the book which I think is far more appropriate to label its residents, which can include humans.

I think the religion was called Dyvag, too.

The chronicles also indicate that "Dyval", the realm's name, was that of the Supreme Lord prior to Sahtalus (aka Satan in PRPG)

I would use the tradition PRPG term "Devils" for the actual species. No idea why they added the E, when that was originally just the more common denizen.

Following the above format I would say "Hadesians" works well enough.

They added an "E" both to differentiate it from DnD as well as to not offend Religions of the 80s. Remember this was around the time DnD was under so much flack fro "Devil Worshiping".

Yes, from the time before they became Tanar'ri, Baatezu, Yugoloths and other stuff on the late 80's in AD&D.
I think sub-demon is also refered to (and forgotten) once in '70s D&D.

[Tor]

D&D didn't have "demons"? It's not like Palladium changed to Deemons too...

Not to mention that "devils" plural actually wasn't a problem at all because it is clearly distinct from "The Devil". More like Tasmanian/Jersey devils.

Even the Satan>Sahtalus change is strange because they kept more obscure terms. "Leviathan" the Devil Lord is one of the 4 cardinal points of Satanism, "Mephisto" was also a major demony guy.

[SolCannibal]

D&D didn't have "demons"? It's not like Palladium changed to Deemons too...

Yeah, but Palladium has a more peculiar variety of demonic beings, specially those of uncertain provenance.

Not to mention that "devils" plural actually wasn't a problem at all because it is clearly distinct from "The Devil". More like Tasmanian/Jersey devils.

What i would think too, but then i'm no christian fundamentalist or alarmist.

Even the Satan>Sahtalus change is strange because they kept more obscure terms. "Leviathan" the Devil Lord is one of the 4 cardinal points of Satanism, "Mephisto" was also a major demony guy.

Mephisto? Except for theater and Marvel comics, never really a big deal.

[eliakon]

Even the Satan>Sahtalus change is strange because they kept more obscure terms. "Leviathan" the Devil Lord is one of the 4 cardinal points of Satanism, "Mephisto" was also a major demony guy.

Mephisto? Except for theater and Marvel comics, never really a big deal.

The name Mephisto is derived from Mephistopheles. Who originates in Faust, which means he is only of 16th century vintage. Which is old, but not 'Middle Ages Demonology' old. *Shrugs*

[SolCannibal]

Even the Satan>Sahtalus change is strange because they kept more obscure terms. "Leviathan" the Devil Lord is one of the 4 cardinal points of Satanism, "Mephisto" was also a major demony guy.

Mephisto? Except for theater and Marvel comics, never really a big deal.

The name Mephisto is derived from Mephistopheles. Who originates in Faust, which means he is only of 16th century vintage. Which is old, but not 'Middle Ages Demonology' old. *Shrugs*

Yes, it's Mephistopheles who i meant - outside of Faust (and there's some relativity even there) he's all "literary devil" but not much else.

[eliakon]

Even the Satan>Sahtalus change is strange because they kept more obscure terms. "Leviathan" the Devil Lord is one of the 4 cardinal points of Satanism, "Mephisto" was also a major demony guy.

Mephisto? Except for theater and Marvel comics, never really a big deal.

The name Mephisto is derived from Mephistopheles. Who originates in Faust, which means he is only of 16th century vintage. Which is old, but not 'Middle Ages Demonology' old. *Shrugs*

Yes, it's Mephistopheles who i meant - outside of Faust (and there's some relativity even there) he's all "literary devil" but not much else.

Well considering that most of the major 'demons' are just 'literary devils' (the famous Lilith for example.....)

[Nekira Sudacne]

Demon Lords, Dark Gods and Supernatural Intelligences being the only ones capable of making pacts doesn't necessarily mean that every member of each of these groups is capable of doing so. For that reason I find it useful to find actual examples of it. Even if every member of each group COULD do it, doesn't mean they all do (like how roughly only 1 in 36 Infernals will make a Damned Immortal servant) so knowing the ones who explicitly do is useful for making chars based on them.

Also worth dropping that there is an exception: Deevil Lords, unless one takes the 'Deevils are another Horde of Demons' CB1 interpretation. Their deific abilities also make them kind of like Dark Gods too. Or even Supernatural Intelligences if you use the CB1 stats instead of Dragons and Gods versions.

What qualifies as a "dark" god" might also generate some murky areas too. Explicit "gods of darkness" are easy enough, but then you have evil-aligned gods, gods of death, gods of war, etc.

Actually, DB 11 Dyval makes it explicit that Dyvil lords can take witches, and in fact goes further to state that they use witches exclusively to organize and run their cults. they take no preists at all, either you accept witchdom you just arn't commited enough for them.

In armagedon unlimited, it also makes it explicit they have the power to create Mystically Bestowed super-powered beings, and even a Mega-Hero variant, as well as having the power to create rune-weapon level Weapons of Chaos with magic or superpowers built in.

[eliakon]

Path of the Storm has the Hindra race.
They are all pacted to some (un named) AI as a witch race.

Adze from Thundercloud Galaxy can make Beetle Witches


(is there a list of all of this going up? Like say editing the first post or something?)

[Tor]

I can edit them into the first post or we could make an updated list in a later post. The main distinction is whether something is indicated to use the standard witch OCC or if something is merely a 'pact' or 'witch-like' or a different kind of witch that uses a variant OCC.

Actually, DB 11 Dyval makes it explicit that Dyvil lords can take witches, and in fact goes further to state that they use witches exclusively to organize and run their cults.

That's why I list them as an exception to the statement that only "Demon Lords" and "Dark Gods" and "Alien Intelligences" can make (Pact) Witches, unless you consider them one of those three. Night Lords would also be an exception. Then you have other kinds of witches (like in Chaos Earth) which are merely Greater Demons.

[eliakon]

I think what this has found is that 'witch' covers a wide spectrum of supernaturally empowered minions. The 'classic pact witch' seems to just be more of a vanilla 'default' version of the process that is most common to most sources, but that there are a wide range of different witches (and witch makers) that all still come under the heading 'witch'

[Tor]

True, but if it says someone can make a witch, with no added into, I think that defaults to mean Pact Witch, a term introduced in Mystic Russia to describe what has been otherwise just called Witch. Most other variants always get their adjective title.

[SolCannibal]

Tor, still planning to collect other posters additions in a master list of sorts? Just curious.

[Tor]

Ah I guess, probably forgot about doing that while waiting on other ideas.

[SolCannibal]

It happens - i myself only remembered because ended up re-reading the topic this week, so no big deal.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Do Mystically bestowed Abilities characters count as witches??
It's technically a pact to get powers that can be cancelled at any time.

Witches are Empowered magic users..... so like with Priests would be a sub-set of the Mystically bestowed Abilities.

Sort of like how juicers would be a sub-set of the super-solder power cat.

Note: Yes, I know that Mystically bestowed Abilities and Super-soldier power cats are also sub-sets of the magic power cat and Experiment power cat.

[eliakon]

Do Mystically bestowed Abilities characters count as witches??
It's technically a pact to get powers that can be cancelled at any time.

Witches are Empowered magic users..... so like with Priests would be a sub-set of the Mystically bestowed Abilities.

Sort of like how juicers would be a sub-set of the super-solder power cat.

Note: Yes, I know that Mystically bestowed Abilities and Super-soldier power cats are also sub-sets of the magic power cat and Experiment power cat.

Actually technically Mystically Bestowed would be a sub class of some hypothetical 'externally powered' meta class as Mystically Bestowed individuals don't have the option to be a Witch, or Priest, or Channeler, or any other such thing...thus these would be four separate 'sub-classes' of some other meta-class (Which in the HU game would, presumably be "Magic")
Sort of like how juicer isn't a sub-cat of Super-soldier. Chemical Enhancement is, and yes it shares many similarities. But its not the same thing

Though I am not really sure that there is much purpose in attempting to create a proper taxomic relationship between all the various 'classes' in all the different game lines so that some sort of 'perfect' cladogram of magic classes can be made. Especially since they don't all even use the same rules which sort of calls into question if they should be included in the same taxon.

[SolCannibal]

Do Mystically bestowed Abilities characters count as witches??
It's technically a pact to get powers that can be cancelled at any time.

Witches are Empowered magic users..... so like with Priests would be a sub-set of the Mystically bestowed Abilities.

Sort of like how juicers would be a sub-set of the super-solder power cat.

Note: Yes, I know that Mystically bestowed Abilities and Super-soldier power cats are also sub-sets of the magic power cat and Experiment power cat.

Actually technically Mystically Bestowed would be a sub class of some hypothetical 'externally powered' meta class as Mystically Bestowed individuals don't have the option to be a Witch, or Priest, or Channeler, or any other such thing...thus these would be four separate 'sub-classes' of some other meta-class (Which in the HU game would, presumably be "Magic")
Sort of like how juicer isn't a sub-cat of Super-soldier. Chemical Enhancement is, and yes it shares many similarities. But its not the same thing

I guess i see your point, about similarities not being quite enough to make each thing one and the same - a Mystically Bestowed character could be a witch-like being, but doesn't have to be per se, and while the Juicer would certainly fit under the definition of chemically enhanced super-soldier, there are a number of things a chemically enhanced super-soldier might be that probably wouldn 't really fit as any sort of juicer. So overall the answer is "maybe" and dependent on individual character more than the power cat per se.

Or at least that's what i understood of it on the whole.

[eliakon]

And for a little necromancy.....
Bizantium has the Iceborn Females. Who can become a Skinbinder by forming a blood sacrifice witch pact with Netosa. They all get a specific list of (non-standard) abilities, but are explicitly using the normal pact method.

Also there are the Iceborn Sea Witches. Again who have made a pact (Life long servitude) with Netosa a special Gift of Death and Magic

Both of which are described as being 'classic witches' but also as having different powers.

[SolCannibal]

And for a little necromancy.....
Bizantium has the Iceborn Females. Who can become a Skinbinder by forming a blood sacrifice witch pact with Netosa. They all get a specific list of (non-standard) abilities, but are explicitly using the normal pact method.

Also there are the Iceborn Sea Witches. Again who have made a pact (Life long servitude) with Netosa a special Gift of Death and Magic

Both of which are described as being 'classic witches' but also as having different powers.

As an aside, every time i read "Bizantium" i find it hard not to imagine the Hagia Sophia and other related landmarks.

[Axelmania]

Is it possible do do Multiple OCCs and change from Skinbinder to Sea Witch by making 2 pacts with Netosa?

Usually a conscious alien intelligence might object to double-booking but since the old ones are asleep, how would they know?

[eliakon]

Is it possible do do Multiple OCCs and change from Skinbinder to Sea Witch by making 2 pacts with Netosa?

Usually a conscious alien intelligence might object to double-booking but since the old ones are asleep, how would they know?

Well it is awake enough to make the pacts in the first place....
....and since witchery seems to involve linking bits of the AI to your soul if there is already something attached there it may not be possible to do again.

[SolCannibal]

Is it possible do do Multiple OCCs and change from Skinbinder to Sea Witch by making 2 pacts with Netosa?

Usually a conscious alien intelligence might object to double-booking but since the old ones are asleep, how would they know?

Through the link itself i would guess, making such double-booking very improbable indeed...
Though "switching" OCCs related to the same alien intelligence might be possible if it helps maximizing the being's agenda in some sort of way, i would believe.

[Library Ogre]

Netosa asleep knows far more than you will ever learn awake.

[Axelmania]

I don't think an intelligence really needs to be awake or conscious to make pacts, the Witch OCC in the main book mentions the old ones having pacts in spite of this. The ones who link to the eyeball in Bletherad also don't seem to sign anything just dream and dedicate and get rewards.

[eliakon]

I don't think an intelligence really needs to be awake or conscious to make pacts, the Witch OCC in the main book mentions the old ones having pacts in spite of this. The ones who link to the eyeball in Bletherad also don't seem to sign anything just dream and dedicate and get rewards.

That still doesn't say that you can some how get a second pact (at all, it is not even canonically possible that anyone can ever have multiple pacts. Period) let alone two pacts with the same entity.
Especially since your still getting 'instructions' of some sort presumably (other wise you would be a totally free agent, which would seem to be a departure from the standard discussion of witches to warrant a specific statement if you can avoid this explicit limitation of the class)

[Axelmania]

Does it say somewhere you can't do two pacts? Just change from the Witch OCC to the Witch OCC.

[eliakon]

Does it say somewhere you can't do two pacts? Just change from the Witch OCC to the Witch OCC.

Does it say anywhere that you can make two pacts?
Since you have to get the agreement of the sponsor it is sort of up to the sponsor if you can do that, not the witch. Remember you don't get to just say "I spent my XP, so a divine being has to grant me its powers, as I see fit"

In the specific case here, then you can't take a new pact because you would have to violate the terms of the old pact to get a new one. I am going to go out on a limb here, but I don't think a Great Old One is going to say "Sure, you just broke a pact of lifetime service to me, why don't you keep all the powers, and you know what, have some more" more likely the result is going to be "om nom nom" and a dead witch.

[Library Ogre]

On the other hand, it somewhat depends on the pact, doesn't it? I mean, you can't sign two pacts of eternal servitude, but one to sacrifice your firstborn and a separate pact of eternal servitude...

Just picturing a minor psychic lawyer, with speed reading and total recall, drawing up the contract they're sent, submiting it for edits, etc., to make an iron-clad contract that protects them, and lets them get truly unreasonable powers.

[eliakon]

On the other hand, it somewhat depends on the pact, doesn't it? I mean, you can't sign two pacts of eternal servitude, but one to sacrifice your firstborn and a separate pact of eternal servitude...

Just picturing a minor psychic lawyer, with speed reading and total recall, drawing up the contract they're sent, submiting it for edits, etc., to make an iron-clad contract that protects them, and lets them get truly unreasonable powers.

It might be possible to make multiple pacts then yes.
Maybe.
It is not something covered in the canon material so the GM would have to make a ruling on a case by case basis (since the GM is the one deciding on what the NPC will or will not allow in a pact.)

[Axelmania]

The Great Old Ones are asleep so they aren't consciously going over contracts or getting revenge on those who break them, that's why this question is more for them than others.

Another example would be someone who isn't asleep but is trapped, like Apsu and that 3-eyed guy in Pantheons of the Megaverse who got witch stuff and stole it without needing to obey.

Apsu can't exactly get payback, so he might be willing to make a second pact even knowing that it might get stolen too, just to have a powerful ally.

[eliakon]

The Great Old Ones are asleep so they aren't consciously going over contracts or getting revenge on those who break them, that's why this question is more for them than others.

Another example would be someone who isn't asleep but is trapped, like Apsu and that 3-eyed guy in Pantheons of the Megaverse who got witch stuff and stole it without needing to obey.

Apsu can't exactly get payback, so he might be willing to make a second pact even knowing that it might get stolen too, just to have a powerful ally.

They can't be totally out of it or they couldn't be making contracts in the first place.
Add in that we know that at least one Great Old One and one Lesser Old One are awake enough to communicate coherently with their followers and answer questions.
AND that dream communication with beings is a canon thing in Palladium.
And I think that we can pretty much conclude that it is not a safe assumption that they are just mindlessly rubberstamping everything and really some sort of tool of their witches.

As for the Sowaki Ea. He is so far the only witch known to ever be able to do this. He had to have a special pact, the magical energies of an entire enslaved planet to draw on, centuries of gradual rebellion and the luck that at the last moment his patron was bound and unable to react as he finely severed his pact.....
That doesn't sound like any sort of 'normal' circumstances. But sure....if your witch can arrange such then good luck to them.

[Axelmania]

Originally it was proxy servants who dealt with all the contract stuff, so that could be the case here.

Good point about the dreams though. Which makes me wonder if the Great Old Ones are doing bad things in the Dreamstream... maybe manipulating some servants behind some kind of shadowy or Dark facade?

I should not assume they are too asleep to dream.

[SolCannibal]

Originally it was proxy servants who dealt with all the contract stuff, so that could be the case here.

Good point about the dreams though. Which makes me wonder if the Great Old Ones are doing bad things in the Dreamstream... maybe manipulating some servants behind some kind of shadowy or Dark facade?

I should not assume they are too asleep to dream.

Speaking of which, could not "the Dark" that commands and guides the Nightlords from Nightbane be one such facade? Nightbane as a setting is full of stuff dealing with the astral plane, dreams and nightmares, if memory tricks me not.

[eliakon]

Originally it was proxy servants who dealt with all the contract stuff, so that could be the case here.

I would be curious as to where this is mentioned?

Good point about the dreams though. Which makes me wonder if the Great Old Ones are doing bad things in the Dreamstream... maybe manipulating some servants behind some kind of shadowy or Dark facade?

I should not assume they are too asleep to dream.

I think of the statement "In his house at R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu waits dreaming." And then laugh at those who claim that the Great Old Ones are nothing to worry about.....

[Axelmania]

First edition mentions that a Greater Demon/Devil will show up to negotiate the contract and get it signed, probably because the Lord is too busy to deal with that petty stuff personally. That was a slightly different kind of witch though, basically forced to go "Gift of Magic", no Power/Union options.

[eliakon]

First edition mentions that a Greater Demon/Devil will show up to negotiate the contract and get it signed, probably because the Lord is too busy to deal with that petty stuff personally. That was a slightly different kind of witch though, basically forced to go "Gift of Magic", no Power/Union options.

Sounds like yet another sub-class of witch joins the list
(and that I really miss not having my first edition books )