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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 1:09 pm
  

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I know this question has been asked about Telemechanic Possession but it hasn't been asked (that I can see) about Mental Operation.

In astral form, on the material plane, can I use Telemechanic Mental Operation?

Deaths Head transporter suddenly veers into the ground. Seems pretty powerful.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:07 pm
  

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I'd be reluctant to allow it, for the exact reason you stated. It could quickly get out of hand.

(I have this opinion on many things concerning Astral forms on the Material Plane. YMMV.)

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 1:29 am
  

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It wouldn't get out of hand as in the example because after the first time this happened, the CS would keep a psi-bat operator on board Death's Heads to attack astral projectors who tried it.

Another problem is getting range in the first place. Death's Heads max out at mach 1 (the max speed astral projectors fly) so you could never catch up if pursuing one going max speed. It's possible at the cruising speed of ~350mph but even then... who's to say an astral projector would even be able to perceive a transport traveling that quickly? These things can fly up to 40,000 above ground, low clouds can begin at 6500 feet.

TMO also says "if he steps out of range or loses concentration, the machine returns to normal in 1d4 seconds" so there's a high risk the astral projector may not be able to keep within 25 feet of the transport (it's not like he can hang onto it!) to maintain operation long enough to crash it.

"as if his fingers were on the controls" doesn't mean you can wrest control away from a pilot operating the joystick, or know the key procedures needed to bypass safeguards.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:59 am
  

Palladin

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Baron mugwort wrote:
I know this question has been asked about Telemechanic Possession but it hasn't been asked (that I can see) about Mental Operation.

In astral form, on the material plane, can I use Telemechanic Mental Operation?

Deaths Head transporter suddenly veers into the ground. Seems pretty powerful.


pretty sure it's been asked. probably more than once. finding the specific place where it's been asked may be difficult though... but i think we've had a discussion on the subject relatively recently on the rifts forums, at least within the past several months. the discussion did also cover mental operation, so you may have just stopped reading the thread in question before it started discussing mental operation.

it depends a great deal on how you think the rules for using other powers while astrally projecting are supposed to work, and whether you think super category powers can also count as sensitive powers, and if you do think they can also be sensitive powers, what category you think the telemechanics family would fall into.

which more or less boils down to "ask your GM".


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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:12 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
It wouldn't get out of hand as in the example because after the first time this happened...


I'm using a much broader definition of "get out of hand."

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:37 am
  

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Baron mugwort wrote:
I know this question has been asked about Telemechanic Possession but it hasn't been asked (that I can see) about Mental Operation.

In astral form, on the material plane, can I use Telemechanic Mental Operation?

Deaths Head transporter suddenly veers into the ground. Seems pretty powerful.

Sounds legit to me. Yes it sounds cheesy, but there's already enough cheesy stuff in Rifts, one more isn't going to be noticed.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:28 pm
  

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Baron mugwort wrote:
I know this question has been asked about Telemechanic Possession but it hasn't been asked (that I can see) about Mental Operation.

In astral form, on the material plane, can I use Telemechanic Mental Operation?


No.
Astral bodies as a rule cannot interact with the material plane, except via Telepathy and Empathy or potentially other Sensitive powers.
Telemechanics abilities don't fit that description.

An exception might be made for an Astral Avenger or other such situations where the astral character is specified to be able to use powers to physically interact with the material plane.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 6:20 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Baron mugwort wrote:
I know this question has been asked about Telemechanic Possession but it hasn't been asked (that I can see) about Mental Operation.

In astral form, on the material plane, can I use Telemechanic Mental Operation?


No.
Astral bodies as a rule cannot interact with the material plane, except via Telepathy and Empathy or potentially other Sensitive powers.
Telemechanics abilities don't fit that description.

An exception might be made for an Astral Avenger or other such situations where the astral character is specified to be able to use powers to physically interact with the material plane.

maybe, but Astral Projection doesn't actually say that. It does imply that other powers can be use, and it names two sensitive powers, but also does not rule out the use of other powers or powers in other categories.
Astral Projection wrote:
the astral traveler has the same number of attacks per melee, bonuses, hand to hand, skills, knowledge, and psychic powers he he or she has in the material plane.

That would have been a really good place to say that you can only use your sensitive powers rather than call out that the character has ALL their powers. What's the point of calling out all of your powers if you can only use sensitive powers? It's to imply that you can use all your powers rather than only some of them.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:30 pm
  

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You might have your powers sure.
But a lot of them will only work on other astral things. Just because you have power X doesn't mean you can use it freely across planar boundaries.
Sensitive powers work across the Astral/Material boundary. But RAW, if you want to use something like Telemechanics, you can only use it if the machine is brought into the astral plane first.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:39 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
You might have your powers sure.
But a lot of them will only work on other astral things. Just because you have power X doesn't mean you can use it freely across planar boundaries.
Sensitive powers work across the Astral/Material boundary. But RAW, if you want to use something like Telemechanics, you can only use it if the machine is brought into the astral plane first.

I think you're getting the Astral Projection power a little bit confused. One of the things that Astral Projection explicitly states that you can do is Astral Project to the material plane. Since you're still on the material plane, and still have your powers, and can still use your powers, why would they then not effect other things on the material plane just because you're astral projected to the material plane when the power specifically states that you can use your powers to do just exactly that?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:35 pm
  

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RUE p171 wrote:

The Astral Self is little more than a mute, ghostly observer.
...

They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc.


I tend to take those statements at face value. Others may take a more liberal view.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:34 pm
  

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torjones wrote:
eliakon wrote:
You might have your powers sure.
But a lot of them will only work on other astral things. Just because you have power X doesn't mean you can use it freely across planar boundaries.
Sensitive powers work across the Astral/Material boundary. But RAW, if you want to use something like Telemechanics, you can only use it if the machine is brought into the astral plane first.

I think you're getting the Astral Projection power a little bit confused. One of the things that Astral Projection explicitly states that you can do is Astral Project to the material plane. Since you're still on the material plane, and still have your powers, and can still use your powers, why would they then not effect other things on the material plane just because you're astral projected to the material plane when the power specifically states that you can use your powers to do just exactly that?

Because your still astral.
The power makes it pretty clear that the intention was that you can use sensitive powers on the material world. And the reasoning is pretty obvious. Astral forms are virtually immune to attack and if they can attack people with impunity that's a pretty serious problem from a game issue as its generally not much fun to have a game where you can have one side attack you and kill you if you can not fight back at all.
Its especially horrifying when you realize just how many millions of astral projectors the CS has...

The most logical assumption therefore is that when the power says sensitive powers, it meant sensitive powers and not that it really meant that you could use all powers and that it really was just limiting you to only sensitive powers in the undefined astral plane that was not ever intended for use as a game destination. Especially since the power is pretty obviously designed to be used for the co-existance mode... the idea that the only real limit on it is designed to NOT apply to the main use for the power doesn't pass any sort of logic test.

Its pretty clear that the idea is that "you are astral. Thus, you can only affect astral things...unless you are doing something sensitive like telepathy or the like"

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:38 pm
  

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torjones wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
Baron mugwort wrote:
I know this question has been asked about Telemechanic Possession but it hasn't been asked (that I can see) about Mental Operation.

In astral form, on the material plane, can I use Telemechanic Mental Operation?


No.
Astral bodies as a rule cannot interact with the material plane, except via Telepathy and Empathy or potentially other Sensitive powers.
Telemechanics abilities don't fit that description.

An exception might be made for an Astral Avenger or other such situations where the astral character is specified to be able to use powers to physically interact with the material plane.

maybe, but Astral Projection doesn't actually say that. It does imply that other powers can be use, and it names two sensitive powers, but also does not rule out the use of other powers or powers in other categories.
Astral Projection wrote:
the astral traveler has the same number of attacks per melee, bonuses, hand to hand, skills, knowledge, and psychic powers he he or she has in the material plane.

That would have been a really good place to say that you can only use your sensitive powers rather than call out that the character has ALL their powers. What's the point of calling out all of your powers if you can only use sensitive powers? It's to imply that you can use all your powers rather than only some of them.


You can use all of your powers while you're astral.
You can only affect the material plane with Empathy, Telepathy, and other Sensitive powers.

You want to use Mind Bolt while you're astral?
Great!
You create an astral Mind Bolt that only affects other astral travelers.

You want to use Pyrokinesis while you're astral?
Great!
You can create or affect astral fire that only affects other astral travelers.

Want to use Telemechanic Mental Operation while you're astral?
Great!
But you'll need to be targeting an astral computer.


Just like how your quoted passage says that you retain all of your Hand to Hand attacks, having those attacks doesn't mean that you can astrally punch people who aren't astral.
It just means that when you're fighting other astral travelers, you can punch them.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:26 pm
  

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Sorry guys, but I disagree with your interpretations. Feel free to run it however you like at your tables, I'll be allowing players to use their other powers while Astral Projecting at mine. You want to astral project to the material plane and then telemechanics a robot, sure, I don't see anything in the power that says you can't. Yes, there's an implication that says you can't, but other implications would indicate that you can. When those implications are weighed against each other, I believe it means that it's allowed. You guys obviously disagree. I'm cool with that.

As I said previously, Some GMs are more restrictive, I happen to be a bit more permissive, and I believe, after reading the Astral Projection power, repeatedly because of this thread, looking for justification of your interpretations, that the power works as I've stated previously.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:05 pm
  

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torjones wrote:
Sorry guys, but I disagree with your interpretations. Feel free to run it however you like at your tables, I'll be allowing players to use their other powers while Astral Projecting at mine. You want to astral project to the material plane and then telemechanics a robot, sure, I don't see anything in the power that says you can't. Yes, there's an implication that says you can't, but other implications would indicate that you can. When those implications are weighed against each other, I believe it means that it's allowed. You guys obviously disagree. I'm cool with that.

As I said previously, Some GMs are more restrictive, I happen to be a bit more permissive, and I believe, after reading the Astral Projection power, repeatedly because of this thread, looking for justification of your interpretations, that the power works as I've stated previously.


eh, it's pretty clear you can only use sensitive powers (specifically, the ones that have range higher than touch) to affect the material world while astrally projecting. feel free to house rule what you want, but after some previous discussions, examining the text, etc... it's pretty clearly at least meant to limit things to sensitive, and is most likely just an example of poor editing.

hence why i said above, whether or not you can use telemechanics powers on material targets while astrally projecting depends on whether you think super category can also be lesser (so for example super TK is also physical, super bio-regeneration is also healer, and telemechanics family is also one of those regular categories) and that telemechanics and family are sensitive.

personally, i think super category powers also fit into the lesser categories (because in settings where palladium wasn't using the super category, they sometimes have powers from the super category anyways and put them in the regular categories) and that telemechanics and family are sensitive powers (it is described as a combination of multiple sensitive powers), but not everyone agrees with those rulings (mainly the first one i think... i've never had anyone tell me that if telemechanics were to be grouped into one of the regular categories they think it would be something other than sensitive).

that still leaves plenty of effectiveness to be had. and frankly, i'm not convinced astral projection telemechanic mental operation is particularly more devastating than putting a psychic into a super-reinforced MDC box in the back of a heavily reinforced MDC vehicle while wearing heavy MDC armour anyways. i mean, i suppose in the latter scenario, the psychic is in slightly more danger from most opponents (their cord and their astral body can be threatened by some opponents more easily), but the great majority of the time the amount of MDC enemies would need to chew through to reach the psychic makes them equally impervious to physical harm.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:38 am
  

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Mack wrote:
RUE p171 wrote:

The Astral Self is little more than a mute, ghostly observer.
...

They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive psionic powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc.


I tend to take those statements at face value. Others may take a more liberal view.

"Little more" means they ARE more than observer.

"Generally" implies exceptions to the examples that follow.

One obvious one would be communication: if someone is able to see the invisible, then you should be able to communicate via sign language or lip reading.

The way "may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact" isn't really a hard cap either. There's sort of an implied "may NOT use psionic powers that DO require physical contact" which would be a reasonable house rule for the GM, of course.

Which doesn't really say anything about using telekinesis or ectoplasm while AP to kill people.

eliakon wrote:
Its especially horrifying when you realize just how many millions of astral projectors the CS has...

I don't think we actually know that, the only class I know of guaranteed to get Astral Projection is the Psi-Warrior at 7th level. Conversely, we know all Psi-Techs and Psi-Ghosts start off with "Machine Ghost", so we could form a clearer estimate of a minimum amount who has those.

AP might actually be a rare power, maybe people tend to get something like mind block 100x more often than AP, who knows?

eliakon wrote:
Thus, you can only affect astral things...unless you are doing something sensitive like telepathy or the like"

The question is where the 'like' extends. How about Hypnotic Suggestion or Group Mind Block?

Shark_Force wrote:
it's pretty clear you can only use sensitive powers (specifically, the ones that have range higher than touch) to affect the material world while astrally projecting.

Machine Ghost has "computer by touch", so much for the need exploit I had in mind. I guess "Object Read" is similarly forbidden?

Read Dimensional Portal is "touch or one foot..." so I guess that's okay. I never understood guidelines like that, when would 1ft+ not include touch? Why even mention touch?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:46 am
  

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maybe the by touch option is to get around needing to see things? i mean, presumably, if you're touching the thing, and thus know exactly where it is (provided your body's sense of where all your extremities are is functioning correctly) you don't need to see it to know where it is for targeting purposes...

but yeah, for the most part that seemed weird to me too.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:49 am
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
eh, it's pretty clear you can only use sensitive powers (specifically, the ones that have range higher than touch) to affect the material world while astrally projecting. feel free to house rule what you want, but after some previous discussions, examining the text, etc... it's pretty clearly at least meant to limit things to sensitive, and is most likely just an example of poor editing.

Again, I disagree.
RUE p171 wrote:
A character traveling the Material Plane via Astral Projection may use any psionic powers that do NOT require physical contact.

Is pretty explicit that you can use any psionic powers, not just sensitive ones.

Further, the counter example of the very next line which states:
RUE p171 wrote:
They can generally only affect the physical world ... by sensitive psionic powers such as telepathy, clairvoyance, empathy, etc.; astral travelers communicate using telepathy.

This seems to be contradictory to the previous statement until one examines the examples given. Since NONE of those powers listed actually affect the physical world, something else MUST be meant by the statement. The one thread that BOTH statements have in common is the lack of physical touch being a requirement. Since both statements are true, one must look to the use of absolutes and qualifiers. "May use any powers that do not require physical contact" is an absolute statement. "They can generally only affect" is a qualified statement, it's not absolute like the previous statement. This means that Sensitive powers are not the ONLY way to affect the material plane while astral projecting. To read this to mean that Sensitive powers ARE the ONLY way to affect the material plane is misunderstanding the rules of grammar.

As other's have pointed out, Generally does not mean ONLY.

Shark_Force wrote:
hence why i said above, whether or not you can use telemechanics powers on material targets while astral projecting depends on whether you think super category can also be lesser (so for example super TK is also physical, super bio-regeneration is also healer, and telemechanics family is also one of those regular categories) and that telemechanics and family are sensitive.

Citation please, because I'm not seeing your justification within the power's text.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:26 am
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
You can use all of your powers while you're astral.
You can only affect the material plane with Empathy, Telepathy, and other Sensitive powers.

You want to use Mind Bolt while you're astral?
Great!
You create an astral Mind Bolt that only affects other astral travelers.

Just like how your quoted passage says that you retain all of your Hand to Hand attacks, having those attacks doesn't mean that you can astrally punch people who aren't astral.
It just means that when you're fighting other astral travelers, you can punch them.

Citation please, because I don't see how the text supports that conclusion. In fact, it says the opposite in several places.
RUE p171 wrote:
The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy, nor speak to, smell, or touch anything on the Material Plane.

If psionic powers didn't work between those who are Astral Projecting and those who aren't, how would such communication take place? I would take your position as true and correct if the rest of that paragraph didn't exist to explain what is meant. Repeatedly, they give examples of what works, not exhaustive lists. Now, one might make an argument that those are the only two ways in which one may communicate while Astral Projecting, but that's already been dis-proven via sign language and lip reading. We are therefor left with the inescapable conclusion that those are the only two powers that work specifically for COMMUNICATION, and not as a whole. Although, even then, I would assume that anything from the Rifters or future book publications that was communicative and didn't require physical touch would also work.

I'm curious, do you also assert that other powers, such as See Aura, Sense Dimensional Anomaly, and Sense Evil, also only work on objects or people that have been Astral Projected?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:02 pm
  

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we have two statements: one, that generally only sensitive powers can be used on things in the physical world from the astral (and telepathy at least definitely can affect things, in that it allows you to talk to people in the physical world), the other that the power must not require touch. it isn't reasonable to conclude that they meant generally only sensitive powers can be used, with the exception of all of the other non-sensitive powers that require touch; the only way this makes sense when taken together is that they were inadequately clear regarding the limitation on sensitive powers; that is, they were leaving themselves an 'out' in the event that later on they decide to have some specific power (from a psychic OCC or RCC) that proves the exception to the rule, and the combination means that the power must be sensitive and not require touch, unless a specific non-sensitive power (which could be anything from a new psychic power that breaks the rule to an RCC or OCC power that isn't clearly categorized, although some of those you could reasonably deduce their category, as with the psi-stalker's ability to detect PPE etc being most likely sensitive).

as to why, *if* you agree that super psionic powers can also count as regular category powers (which would, for example, allow empathic projection), the telemechanics family would be sensitive... the first sentence in the power describes it as a combination of object read and telepathy, both sensitive powers. the power it is most directly similar to (machine ghost) is *also* a sensitive power. i will grant that this is not absolutely 100% airtight conclusive, but of the three, there is a much stronger case to be made that it is sensitive in nature rather than physical or especially healing.

(to be clear, while i personally consider the super psionics to also match up with regular psionic categories, merely being more powerful in nature, i also don't consider that to be something that everyone must agree with; i think that's how it works, but i can't provide conclusive evidence of it, and others are entitled to make their own judgment regarding the evidence i have presented regarding settings that lack a super category placing those same powers into regular categories in some cases)


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:15 am
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
we have two statements: one, that generally only sensitive powers can be used on things in the physical world from the astral (and telepathy at least definitely can affect things, in that it allows you to talk to people in the physical world), the other that the power must not require touch. it isn't reasonable to conclude that they meant generally only sensitive powers can be used, with the exception of all of the other non-sensitive powers that require touch; the only way this makes sense when taken together is that they were inadequately clear regarding the limitation on sensitive powers; that is, they were leaving themselves an 'out' in the event that later on they decide to have some specific power (from a psychic OCC or RCC) that proves the exception to the rule, and the combination means that the power must be sensitive and not require touch, unless a specific non-sensitive power (which could be anything from a new psychic power that breaks the rule to an RCC or OCC power that isn't clearly categorized, although some of those you could reasonably deduce their category, as with the psi-stalker's ability to detect PPE etc being most likely sensitive).

The problem is that you aren't actually ON the astral plane when you are projecting from your body on the material plane, to the material plane, you are coexisting on the material plane, you never left it, you only left your body behind, sitting over there in the corner, or on the couch, or whatever. you are still ON the Material Plane. The other powers you use can't require touch as you have no capacity to touch the object as an astral projection, however, you are still your mind, your spirit, and since that's what controls your psychic abilities in the first place, you can still use any powers that do not require physical contact to activate. Both statements are true and correct, they do not contradict each other, and the only way that works is if you follow the rules of grammar and stop believing that generally means only. They don't NEED an "Out." They are clearly and explicitly stating that any power you know that doesn't require physical touch, works as intended, from the material plane to the material plane, no need for any objects to be astral projected in order to affect them. It is not an unreasonable conclusion to read the words that are printed and assume they mean what the dictionary says that they mean, it *IS* unreasonable to conclude that they mean something other than what the dictionary says they mean, or that the rules of grammar do not apply just because you want something to be interpreted in a different way.

Shark_Force wrote:
as to why, *if* you agree that super psionic powers can also count as regular category powers (which would, for example, allow empathic projection), the telemechanics family would be sensitive... the first sentence in the power describes it as a combination of object read and telepathy, both sensitive powers. the power it is most directly similar to (machine ghost) is *also* a sensitive power. i will grant that this is not absolutely 100% airtight conclusive, but of the three, there is a much stronger case to be made that it is sensitive in nature rather than physical or especially healing.

(to be clear, while i personally consider the super psionics to also match up with regular psionic categories, merely being more powerful in nature, i also don't consider that to be something that everyone must agree with; i think that's how it works, but i can't provide conclusive evidence of it, and others are entitled to make their own judgment regarding the evidence i have presented regarding settings that lack a super category placing those same powers into regular categories in some cases)

I agree that the super category of powers is, as you say, very much like the lower tiered powers, but more powerful all around. It's split up this way, iirc, to make sure that only certain PCCs have access to those powers.

I think though that it's a mental gymnastics routine that is completely unnecessary.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 2:34 am
  

Palladin

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if we have two conflicting statements regarding what can be used while using the astral projection power in coexistence mode (and we do; the statement that generally only sensitive powers work is not consistent with the statement that any power that does not require physical contact can work), we have to resolve that conflict before the whole thing can be properly understood. if there were 20 sensitive powers that did not require physical contact and only 1-2 non-sensitive powers, we could just say there's no problem; in such a case, *generally* the powers that work are sensitive powers. but that isn't what we're presented with at all.

instead we have 4* healing (exorcism, increased healing, induce sleep, psychic diagnosis), 6 physical (deaden senses**, ectoplasm***, levitation, telekinesis, TK punch, TK push) 10 sensitive (empathy, presence sense, read dimensional portal, see aura, see the invisible, sense dimensional anomaly, sense evil, sense magic, sixth sense, telepathy) and 19 super. of the super options that have range, i would consider 2 to be "healing" (bio-manipulation*** and psychosomatic disease***, though there's room for debate on those), 7 that i would consider to be "physical" (electrokinesis, hydrokinesis, mind bolt, pyrokinesis, super TK, TK acceleration attack, TK force field) and 10 that i would consider sensitive (empathic transmission, group mind block, group trance, hypnotic suggestion, psychic omni-sight, radiate horror factor*****, and the 4 telemechanics powers).

that means we're looking at 19 that are not sensitive vs 20 which are sensitive... that doesn't remotely sound like generally only sensitive powers work if we presume the line about any ranged psionic ability being usable takes precedence. therefore, giving the line about any ranged powers being usable precedence means that the line about only sensitive powers is being invalidated. just over half of the usable powers being sensitive is certainly a significant portion, but not nearly enough to say that generally only sensitive powers work.

in contrast, if we consider the range limitation to be clarifying which sensitive powers can be used, both statements can be valid; generally only sensitive powers work (barring any specific mention elsewhere for special OCC abilities, powerful items, etc), and more particularly only ones that actually have a range, meaning you can't use object read or machine ghost, for example. this is the only reading i've found which doesn't ignore at least one of those two statements; if you have an alternate reading that doesn't require pretending one of those statements doesn't exist, i'm interested; i actually used to think it meant any ranged power myself, and it is only through discussions on these forums that i've been persuaded that my previous stance simply was not consistent with the astral projection power. the last time we had this discussion on these forums, i was actually on the other side of the argument (though i still also considered the telemechanic family to be essentially sensitive and super, so it did not change my opinion on telemechanics in particular; it certainly changed how i thought telekinesis powers worked, though).

but seriously, if you find something, let me know; i'm always glad to have more interesting options for psionics. who knows, maybe some day the mind melter will actually be able to do mind control half as well as low-level bog-standard invocation magic can do it.



FOOTNOTES
* detect psionics technically is range self, so i haven't counted it. if i did, it would officially be another healing. i would consider it to have a range, practically speaking, but then again i have no idea why it's healing and not sensitive, so it's a bit of a wash. either way, the tally remains with slightly more than half of the possibilities are sensitive.
** this doesn't feel physical to me; it's either messing with the body (healing) or mind (sensitive) imo. then again, physical gets a lot of stuff that modifies the body... i wish it didn't, there's far too little in the healing category imo.
*** as i recall, i checked BtS from back when super powers weren't a thing and they grouped bio-manipulation in physical. as i've just noted, however, to me that's stupid; it is more in line with controlling a body to heal itself than it is with telekinesis, imo. YMMV
**** ectoplasm is arguably target self, given the tendrils emanate from you, but as written it does have range.
***** this one i could also see being healing, given it is basically the opposite of the power to suppress fear, which is healing. i grouped it into sensitive to avoid any bias on my part towards making sensitive type powers seem less common than they are.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:43 am
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
if we have two conflicting statements regarding what can be used while using the astral projection power in coexistence mode (and we do; the statement that generally only sensitive powers work is not consistent with the statement that any power that does not require physical contact can work), we have to resolve that conflict before the whole thing can be properly understood. if there were 20 sensitive powers that did not require physical contact and only 1-2 non-sensitive powers, we could just say there's no problem; in such a case, *generally* the powers that work are sensitive powers. but that isn't what we're presented with at all.


Fortunately, we do not have two conflicting statements. The resolution comes from understanding that both statements can be true at the same time, because the second statement isn't making an absolute statement, and the previous sentence IS. You have no need to ignore the statement to make everything else true, in fact, you really can't ignore it as it is intended to refine the reader's understanding that you can't use touch powers but ranged powers work as intended. Personally, I also expect a range of Self to also work normally under this wording.

Shark_Force wrote:
that means we're looking at 19 that are not sensitive vs 20 which are sensitive... that doesn't remotely sound like generally only sensitive powers work if we presume the line about any ranged psionic ability being usable takes precedence. therefore, giving the line about any ranged powers being usable precedence means that the line about only sensitive powers is being invalidated. just over half of the usable powers being sensitive is certainly a significant portion, but not nearly enough to say that generally only sensitive powers work.


More than 50% = that's the normal, ie: General case. Frankly, you don't even need to get that pedantic. It already doesn't hold as much weight because English Grammar has rules that we follow. We aren't ignoring it. We aren't pretending it doesn't exist. The words mean what the words mean. you can't just ignore the language because it doesn't support your point of view.

Shark_Force wrote:
in contrast, if we consider the range limitation to be clarifying which sensitive powers can be used, both statements can be valid; generally only sensitive powers work (barring any specific mention elsewhere for special OCC abilities, powerful items, etc), and more particularly only ones that actually have a range, meaning you can't use object read or machine ghost, for example. this is the only reading i've found which doesn't ignore at least one of those two statements; if you have an alternate reading that doesn't require pretending one of those statements doesn't exist, i'm interested; i actually used to think it meant any ranged power myself, and it is only through discussions on these forums that i've been persuaded that my previous stance simply was not consistent with the astral projection power. the last time we had this discussion on these forums, i was actually on the other side of the argument (though i still also considered the telemechanic family to be essentially sensitive and super, so it did not change my opinion on telemechanics in particular; it certainly changed how i thought telekinesis powers worked, though).

but seriously, if you find something, let me know; i'm always glad to have more interesting options for psionics. who knows, maybe some day the mind melter will actually be able to do mind control half as well as low-level bog-standard invocation magic can do it.


Translation: You used to be correct, but some dumbass convinced you that you can ignore the rules of the language it's written in, and refuse to listen to anyone who explains how and why you're now wrong. Brilliant.

Words have meaning, and the rules of grammar matter. You are ignoring both in order to get the interpretation that you want. Stop that.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:30 pm
  

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the statement that generally it is only possible to use sensitive psionics to affect the material world does not suggest barely over half the time. particularly since describing the use of, say, presence sense as "affecting" the material world is a bit odd, to say the least.

if something is described as "generally only X", then you shouldn't be expecting something that is only slightly over half. if i simply said something generally happens, maybe, but when you make it generally *only* that, slightly more often than not stops being an appropriate description of what's going on, because 'only' means that we're adding another modifier to how often the other things occur.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:23 pm
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
the statement that generally it is only possible to use sensitive psionics to affect the material world does not suggest barely over half the time. particularly since describing the use of, say, presence sense as "affecting" the material world is a bit odd, to say the least.

if something is described as "generally only X", then you shouldn't be expecting something that is only slightly over half. if i simply said something generally happens, maybe, but when you make it generally *only* that, slightly more often than not stops being an appropriate description of what's going on, because 'only' means that we're adding another modifier to how often the other things occur.

Sorry, but this is where I step out. We are just going around in circles. You are not going to convince me that your abuse and deliberate ignoring of how the language works, nor the definitions of words due to wishy-washy feelings of what you think they should mean so that you can interpret certain things the way you want, is in anyway appropriate. I'm not going to be badgered into accepting your bad grammar as gospel. As I said several days ago, Feel free to run your table as you choose. When an honest person who understands the english language and rules of grammar reads it, they will come to the same conclusion I have. But hey, You do You. If you don't believe me, go ask your grade school english teacher to explain it to you. I've reached the extent of my patience.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:17 pm
  

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torjones wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
You can use all of your powers while you're astral.
You can only affect the material plane with Empathy, Telepathy, and other Sensitive powers.

You want to use Mind Bolt while you're astral?
Great!
You create an astral Mind Bolt that only affects other astral travelers.

Just like how your quoted passage says that you retain all of your Hand to Hand attacks, having those attacks doesn't mean that you can astrally punch people who aren't astral.
It just means that when you're fighting other astral travelers, you can punch them.

Citation please, because I don't see how the text supports that conclusion. In fact, it says the opposite in several places.
RUE p171 wrote:
The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy, nor speak to, smell, or touch anything on the Material Plane.


That's not the opposite of what I said.
That's one of the citations for what I said.

Your previous quote stated that characters still retain all of their Hand To Hand Attacks.
This quote points out that retaining all of your Hand to Hand attacks does NOT mean that you can HTH attack anybody in the physical plane--you can't even touch them.

It's the same way with psychic powers.
You can use them, but the only ones that can interact with the material plane are telepathy, empathy, and possibly some other Sensitive powers.
Physical powers CANNOT touch the physical plane from an astral body.

Quote:
If psionic powers didn't work between those who are Astral Projecting and those who aren't, how would such communication take place?


It wouldn't.
Which is why my post (that you quoted) started off by saying:
You can use all of your powers while you're astral.
You can only affect the material plane with Empathy, Telepathy, and other Sensitive powers.


That's my position.
As the book states--and you just quoted--only certain powers can interact with the material plane.

Look at it the other way.
If you could use Telekinesis to interact with the physical plane, how would that NOT be used to communicate? You could tap people on the shoulder, grab a pen and draw, and play all kinds of communication games.
But no, you can't do that:
The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy

Likewise Ectoplasm.
Likewise pyrokinesis, hydrokinesis, and most other powers, using morse code if nothing else.
Of ALL the psychic powers, only Telepathy and Empathy (and possibly some other Sensitive powers) can be used to communicate with the material plane.
Because only those powers can interact with the material plane.
Presumably because only those powers are interacting directly with minds instead of with objects.

Moreover, remember that "The Astral Self is little more than a mute, ghostly observer."
That's not something that describes somebody who can chuck fireballs at you.
An observer is one who observes, NOT one who attacks or interacts with.

Quote:
I would take your position as true and correct if the rest of that paragraph didn't exist to explain what is meant. Repeatedly, they give examples of what works, not exhaustive lists.


The explanation is
RUE 171
They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc..

To what exactly do you think the "they can generally only affect the physical world by..." is meant to rule OUT, if NOT pretty much everything that's not in the brief list that follows that statement?

Quote:
Now, one might make an argument that those are the only two ways in which one may communicate while Astral Projecting, but that's already been dis-proven via sign language and lip reading.


Combined with a psychic power that allows the physical person to see the astral traveler in the first place.
Which would fall under "Sensitive powers such as..."

Quote:
We are therefor left with the inescapable conclusion that those are the only two powers that work specifically for COMMUNICATION, and not as a whole.


All powers work for astral travelers.
Only the listed powers ("Sensitive powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc...) can affect the material plane.

You can still throw a pyrokinetic fireball. The power still works.
It just can't touch the material plane ("The Astral Body can not... touch anything on the Material Plane")
You're an astral person making astral fire that works just spiffy on anything astral that isn't fireproof.
But it can't touch the material plane.

Quote:
I'm curious, do you also assert that other powers, such as See Aura, Sense Dimensional Anomaly, and Sense Evil, also only work on objects or people that have been Astral Projected?


That would fall under the banner of "Sensitive powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc."

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:05 am
  

Palladin

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torjones wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
the statement that generally it is only possible to use sensitive psionics to affect the material world does not suggest barely over half the time. particularly since describing the use of, say, presence sense as "affecting" the material world is a bit odd, to say the least.

if something is described as "generally only X", then you shouldn't be expecting something that is only slightly over half. if i simply said something generally happens, maybe, but when you make it generally *only* that, slightly more often than not stops being an appropriate description of what's going on, because 'only' means that we're adding another modifier to how often the other things occur.

Sorry, but this is where I step out. We are just going around in circles. You are not going to convince me that your abuse and deliberate ignoring of how the language works, nor the definitions of words due to wishy-washy feelings of what you think they should mean so that you can interpret certain things the way you want, is in anyway appropriate. I'm not going to be badgered into accepting your bad grammar as gospel. As I said several days ago, Feel free to run your table as you choose. When an honest person who understands the english language and rules of grammar reads it, they will come to the same conclusion I have. But hey, You do You. If you don't believe me, go ask your grade school english teacher to explain it to you. I've reached the extent of my patience.


well, suit yourself. if you can't see the conflict between "generally only these things work" and "actually, pretty much anything will work", i'm not going to spend further time on it.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:45 pm
  

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If Astral Projection was as restrictive as some think, I don't see how an Ecto-Traveler would manage to build their bodies. If they can do that, normal ectoplasm should be no trouble at all.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
If you could use Telekinesis to interact with the physical plane, how would that NOT be used to communicate? You could tap people on the shoulder, grab a pen and draw, and play all kinds of communication games.
But no, you can't do that:
The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy

Sign language and lip-reading do not involve either of those powers. Do you believe there is something preventing these being used to communicate with the material world? Like perhaps astral bodies do not have lips or fingers?

Even so, surely they have at least stubby arm-like limbs which could point at letters on a chart to communicate that way.

So clearly this can't as hard a limit as you might initially think. If these situational exceptions can exist, then other situation exceptions can exist.

It isn't the astral "BODY" communicating, after all, it is the intelligence inhabiting that body. Empathy/Telepathy must just refer to communication directly with the body.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Likewise pyrokinesis, hydrokinesis, and most other powers, using morse code if nothing else.

You could do morse code through gesture alone if you made arm symbols (or pointed to 2 pictures) representing dot and dash. You can't rationally prevent "communication" with a body you can see. Even if an Astral Body were some kind of featureless blob, they could move back and forth between 2 locations corresponding to "Dot" and "Dash" or on some kind of giant keyboard.

Perhaps the restriction on powers pertains to when you are in the AP rather than coexisting, since then you would not be present to be seen or use your powers, but could still project telepathy/empathy across your astral portal?


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:55 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
I reread the power today and noticed something that I missed.
And that is that Telemechanic Mental Operation is explicitly barred by the description of the Astral Projection power.
Let me say that again. The description explicitly bans the use of that power from the astral!

How do I figure.
"The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy" That is pretty cut and dried.
It does not say "Or any other power that is similar in nature" It says "These two and only these two powers can be used, la la la"
TMO allows for the communication with the physical world and therefore is explicitly banned.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:13 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
I reread the power today and noticed something that I missed.
And that is that Telemechanic Mental Operation is explicitly barred by the description of the Astral Projection power.
Let me say that again. The description explicitly bans the use of that power from the astral!

How do I figure.
"The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy" That is pretty cut and dried.
It does not say "Or any other power that is similar in nature" It says "These two and only these two powers can be used, la la la"
TMO allows for the communication with the physical world and therefore is explicitly banned.


1) that conflicts with the description of the power in the same paragraph where it says that other sensitive powers (with range greater than touch) can be used, and as such is questionable that it means what you want it to mean at best. it is furthermore evident that it is not an exhaustive list since, for example, you can use sign language, pantomime, charades, etc to communicate with people who can see astral beings for example.

2) telemechanics "...is a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy..." (RUE page 183, 'Telemechanics' description, paragraph 1, sentence 2), and as such is not an example of communication with the physical world without using telepathy. telemechanic mental operation, telemechanic paralysis, and telemechanic possession are based on the same principles as telemechanics, and as such are presumably also a "bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy" (possibly with something else mixed in, though that isn't specified).

now, if you wish to interpret the power to disallow those powers on the basis that you don't believe super psionics can also be sensitive powers, or you believe that super psionic powers can be of other categories but telemechanics and/or the telemechanics family are not sensitive powers, or simply because you don't want them to work that way in your game even if you think both of those previous arguments are true, or really any number of other reasons, you certainly can interpret it that way. but no, that sentence does not mean that telemechanic mental operation definitively cannot work from astral projection.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:50 pm
  

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Shark_Force wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I reread the power today and noticed something that I missed.
And that is that Telemechanic Mental Operation is explicitly barred by the description of the Astral Projection power.
Let me say that again. The description explicitly bans the use of that power from the astral!

How do I figure.
"The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy" That is pretty cut and dried.
It does not say "Or any other power that is similar in nature" It says "These two and only these two powers can be used, la la la"
TMO allows for the communication with the physical world and therefore is explicitly banned.


1) that conflicts with the description of the power in the same paragraph where it says that other sensitive powers (with range greater than touch) can be used, and as such is questionable that it means what you want it to mean at best. it is furthermore evident that it is not an exhaustive list since, for example, you can use sign language, pantomime, charades, etc to communicate with people who can see astral beings for example.

2) telemechanics "...is a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy..." (RUE page 183, 'Telemechanics' description, paragraph 1, sentence 2), and as such is not an example of communication with the physical world without using telepathy. telemechanic mental operation, telemechanic paralysis, and telemechanic possession are based on the same principles as telemechanics, and as such are presumably also a "bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy" (possibly with something else mixed in, though that isn't specified).

now, if you wish to interpret the power to disallow those powers on the basis that you don't believe super psionics can also be sensitive powers, or you believe that super psionic powers can be of other categories but telemechanics and/or the telemechanics family are not sensitive powers, or simply because you don't want them to work that way in your game even if you think both of those previous arguments are true, or really any number of other reasons, you certainly can interpret it that way. but no, that sentence does not mean that telemechanic mental operation definitively cannot work from astral projection.


1) I would say that it is pretty obvious that Super Psionics can not also be Sensitive Powers.
This is easily demonstrated by simply noting that there are several classes and races that get all Sensitive Powers but do NOT get any Super Psionics... This means that making Super Psionics to be sensitive is a house rule. At which point you are outside of the RAW and its not relevant.

2) the argument that you can make sign language so the ban doesn't really exist is absurd. The ban is pretty clearly what it is... a ban on what powers can be used to communicate with the physical world. Claiming that an explicit ban in a text doesn't really exist is pretty much the definition of house ruling... which, again is stepping outside of RAW and takes us beyond any ability to discuss anything since there is no discussion when the discussion is "Well I changed the rules to do what I want"

3) Telemechanics is NOT just a variation of Telepathy and thus a loophole. It is, "A bizzare combination of Telepathy and Object Read but that applies to machines" That is pretty clearly NOT 'Telepathy'. Astral Projection does not say Ttelepathy, Empathy and any power that is built from them, or based on them, or sort of uses them in some novel way" Words matter, and in this case the Author chose to make a pretty explicit limitation. They could have made it "telepathy and empathy" but they didnt. They made it Telepathy and Empathy. This is an important distinction. They made it two specific named powers and not the classes of powers themselves. This is important because this means that when looking at what can cross it is not "all forms of telepathy and empathy" it is "The specific powers of Telepathy and Empathy".

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:57 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
If Astral Projection was as restrictive as some think, I don't see how an Ecto-Traveler would manage to build their bodies. If they can do that, normal ectoplasm should be no trouble at all.


You lost me at "ecto-traveler."
No idea what you're talking about there.

Quote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
If you could use Telekinesis to interact with the physical plane, how would that NOT be used to communicate? You could tap people on the shoulder, grab a pen and draw, and play all kinds of communication games.
But no, you can't do that:
The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy

Sign language and lip-reading do not involve either of those powers.


Yes.
But they would involve some kind of Sensitive power in order to see the astral traveler, who is otherwise invisible.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:09 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I reread the power today and noticed something that I missed.
And that is that Telemechanic Mental Operation is explicitly barred by the description of the Astral Projection power.
Let me say that again. The description explicitly bans the use of that power from the astral!

How do I figure.
"The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy" That is pretty cut and dried.
It does not say "Or any other power that is similar in nature" It says "These two and only these two powers can be used, la la la"
TMO allows for the communication with the physical world and therefore is explicitly banned.


1) that conflicts with the description of the power in the same paragraph where it says that other sensitive powers (with range greater than touch) can be used, and as such is questionable that it means what you want it to mean at best. it is furthermore evident that it is not an exhaustive list since, for example, you can use sign language, pantomime, charades, etc to communicate with people who can see astral beings for example.

2) telemechanics "...is a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy..." (RUE page 183, 'Telemechanics' description, paragraph 1, sentence 2), and as such is not an example of communication with the physical world without using telepathy. telemechanic mental operation, telemechanic paralysis, and telemechanic possession are based on the same principles as telemechanics, and as such are presumably also a "bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy" (possibly with something else mixed in, though that isn't specified).

now, if you wish to interpret the power to disallow those powers on the basis that you don't believe super psionics can also be sensitive powers, or you believe that super psionic powers can be of other categories but telemechanics and/or the telemechanics family are not sensitive powers, or simply because you don't want them to work that way in your game even if you think both of those previous arguments are true, or really any number of other reasons, you certainly can interpret it that way. but no, that sentence does not mean that telemechanic mental operation definitively cannot work from astral projection.


1) I would say that it is pretty obvious that Super Psionics can not also be Sensitive Powers.
This is easily demonstrated by simply noting that there are several classes and races that get all Sensitive Powers but do NOT get any Super Psionics... This means that making Super Psionics to be sensitive is a house rule. At which point you are outside of the RAW and its not relevant.

2) the argument that you can make sign language so the ban doesn't really exist is absurd. The ban is pretty clearly what it is... a ban on what powers can be used to communicate with the physical world. Claiming that an explicit ban in a text doesn't really exist is pretty much the definition of house ruling... which, again is stepping outside of RAW and takes us beyond any ability to discuss anything since there is no discussion when the discussion is "Well I changed the rules to do what I want"

3) Telemechanics is NOT just a variation of Telepathy and thus a loophole. It is, "A bizzare combination of Telepathy and Object Read but that applies to machines" That is pretty clearly NOT 'Telepathy'. Astral Projection does not say Ttelepathy, Empathy and any power that is built from them, or based on them, or sort of uses them in some novel way" Words matter, and in this case the Author chose to make a pretty explicit limitation. They could have made it "telepathy and empathy" but they didnt. They made it Telepathy and Empathy. This is an important distinction. They made it two specific named powers and not the classes of powers themselves. This is important because this means that when looking at what can cross it is not "all forms of telepathy and empathy" it is "The specific powers of Telepathy and Empathy".


The book also states They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc.
Due to the nature of Sensitive powers, this indicates that the list of ways to communicate is NOT limited to just Telepathy and Empathy.

Commune With Spirits, for example, is a Sensitive power.
In fact, the description starts off with:
Using this power, a psychic can "feel" (not see) the presence of spirits. The term "spirit" includes entities (including ghosts and possessing ones), invisible Astral Travelers/Astral Beings...
Followed by:
The psychic can ask the spirit questions by speaking aloud, although the creature often understands the questions on an empathic or intuitive level. Only the psychic hears the answer (unless he's using a group trance) and the answer can be in words or powerful emotions...

This power is a Sensitive power that can contact Astral Travelers, even though it's not Empathy or Telepathy.
It's also a power that can communicate on an empathic level, even though it's not Empathy.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:58 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I reread the power today and noticed something that I missed.
And that is that Telemechanic Mental Operation is explicitly barred by the description of the Astral Projection power.
Let me say that again. The description explicitly bans the use of that power from the astral!

How do I figure.
"The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy" That is pretty cut and dried.
It does not say "Or any other power that is similar in nature" It says "These two and only these two powers can be used, la la la"
TMO allows for the communication with the physical world and therefore is explicitly banned.


1) that conflicts with the description of the power in the same paragraph where it says that other sensitive powers (with range greater than touch) can be used, and as such is questionable that it means what you want it to mean at best. it is furthermore evident that it is not an exhaustive list since, for example, you can use sign language, pantomime, charades, etc to communicate with people who can see astral beings for example.

2) telemechanics "...is a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy..." (RUE page 183, 'Telemechanics' description, paragraph 1, sentence 2), and as such is not an example of communication with the physical world without using telepathy. telemechanic mental operation, telemechanic paralysis, and telemechanic possession are based on the same principles as telemechanics, and as such are presumably also a "bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy" (possibly with something else mixed in, though that isn't specified).

now, if you wish to interpret the power to disallow those powers on the basis that you don't believe super psionics can also be sensitive powers, or you believe that super psionic powers can be of other categories but telemechanics and/or the telemechanics family are not sensitive powers, or simply because you don't want them to work that way in your game even if you think both of those previous arguments are true, or really any number of other reasons, you certainly can interpret it that way. but no, that sentence does not mean that telemechanic mental operation definitively cannot work from astral projection.


1) I would say that it is pretty obvious that Super Psionics can not also be Sensitive Powers.
This is easily demonstrated by simply noting that there are several classes and races that get all Sensitive Powers but do NOT get any Super Psionics... This means that making Super Psionics to be sensitive is a house rule. At which point you are outside of the RAW and its not relevant.

2) the argument that you can make sign language so the ban doesn't really exist is absurd. The ban is pretty clearly what it is... a ban on what powers can be used to communicate with the physical world. Claiming that an explicit ban in a text doesn't really exist is pretty much the definition of house ruling... which, again is stepping outside of RAW and takes us beyond any ability to discuss anything since there is no discussion when the discussion is "Well I changed the rules to do what I want"

3) Telemechanics is NOT just a variation of Telepathy and thus a loophole. It is, "A bizzare combination of Telepathy and Object Read but that applies to machines" That is pretty clearly NOT 'Telepathy'. Astral Projection does not say Ttelepathy, Empathy and any power that is built from them, or based on them, or sort of uses them in some novel way" Words matter, and in this case the Author chose to make a pretty explicit limitation. They could have made it "telepathy and empathy" but they didnt. They made it Telepathy and Empathy. This is an important distinction. They made it two specific named powers and not the classes of powers themselves. This is important because this means that when looking at what can cross it is not "all forms of telepathy and empathy" it is "The specific powers of Telepathy and Empathy".


The book also states They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc.
Due to the nature of Sensitive powers, this indicates that the list of ways to communicate is NOT limited to just Telepathy and Empathy.

Commune With Spirits, for example, is a Sensitive power.
In fact, the description starts off with:
Using this power, a psychic can "feel" (not see) the presence of spirits. The term "spirit" includes entities (including ghosts and possessing ones), invisible Astral Travelers/Astral Beings...
Followed by:
The psychic can ask the spirit questions by speaking aloud, although the creature often understands the questions on an empathic or intuitive level. Only the psychic hears the answer (unless he's using a group trance) and the answer can be in words or powerful emotions...

This power is a Sensitive power that can contact Astral Travelers, even though it's not Empathy or Telepathy.
It's also a power that can communicate on an empathic level, even though it's not Empathy.

And the power itself is a listed exemption to the rule then isn't it. And more to the point you are citing the wrong rule. I understand that you can affect the world with other sensitive powers... but you can not COMMUNICATE with it unless your power is Telepathy, Empathy or has a specific exemption.
Thus you can affect the world by doing such things as checking out an aura, scaning for evil or what have you...

I do not see such a specific and explicit exemption to the rule in Telemechanics.
Which is how rules work. They apply in all cases where there is not a specific exemption. They do not apply unless there is an exemption in some one case in which case you get to say "Nope, the rule is now invalide and thus my house rule is now canon"
Thus for a power to allow for communication via Astral Projection it must be
1) Telepathy
2) Empathy
3) any other ability that explicitly states that it allows for communications with astral projection and thus is an exemption to the rule that says that you can not otherwise communicate.

there is no 4) any other power that I want to use to communicate that is sort of similar to one of the above and thus I feel should also be seen as having the same rule applied to it.

Now, sure you can house rule it that way all you want... but RAW is a different matter entirely.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 pm
  

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eliakon wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I reread the power today and noticed something that I missed.
And that is that Telemechanic Mental Operation is explicitly barred by the description of the Astral Projection power.
Let me say that again. The description explicitly bans the use of that power from the astral!

How do I figure.
"The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy" That is pretty cut and dried.
It does not say "Or any other power that is similar in nature" It says "These two and only these two powers can be used, la la la"
TMO allows for the communication with the physical world and therefore is explicitly banned.


1) that conflicts with the description of the power in the same paragraph where it says that other sensitive powers (with range greater than touch) can be used, and as such is questionable that it means what you want it to mean at best. it is furthermore evident that it is not an exhaustive list since, for example, you can use sign language, pantomime, charades, etc to communicate with people who can see astral beings for example.

2) telemechanics "...is a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy..." (RUE page 183, 'Telemechanics' description, paragraph 1, sentence 2), and as such is not an example of communication with the physical world without using telepathy. telemechanic mental operation, telemechanic paralysis, and telemechanic possession are based on the same principles as telemechanics, and as such are presumably also a "bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy" (possibly with something else mixed in, though that isn't specified).

now, if you wish to interpret the power to disallow those powers on the basis that you don't believe super psionics can also be sensitive powers, or you believe that super psionic powers can be of other categories but telemechanics and/or the telemechanics family are not sensitive powers, or simply because you don't want them to work that way in your game even if you think both of those previous arguments are true, or really any number of other reasons, you certainly can interpret it that way. but no, that sentence does not mean that telemechanic mental operation definitively cannot work from astral projection.


1) I would say that it is pretty obvious that Super Psionics can not also be Sensitive Powers.
This is easily demonstrated by simply noting that there are several classes and races that get all Sensitive Powers but do NOT get any Super Psionics... This means that making Super Psionics to be sensitive is a house rule. At which point you are outside of the RAW and its not relevant.

2) the argument that you can make sign language so the ban doesn't really exist is absurd. The ban is pretty clearly what it is... a ban on what powers can be used to communicate with the physical world. Claiming that an explicit ban in a text doesn't really exist is pretty much the definition of house ruling... which, again is stepping outside of RAW and takes us beyond any ability to discuss anything since there is no discussion when the discussion is "Well I changed the rules to do what I want"

3) Telemechanics is NOT just a variation of Telepathy and thus a loophole. It is, "A bizzare combination of Telepathy and Object Read but that applies to machines" That is pretty clearly NOT 'Telepathy'. Astral Projection does not say Ttelepathy, Empathy and any power that is built from them, or based on them, or sort of uses them in some novel way" Words matter, and in this case the Author chose to make a pretty explicit limitation. They could have made it "telepathy and empathy" but they didnt. They made it Telepathy and Empathy. This is an important distinction. They made it two specific named powers and not the classes of powers themselves. This is important because this means that when looking at what can cross it is not "all forms of telepathy and empathy" it is "The specific powers of Telepathy and Empathy".


1) and yet, in settings where there are no super psionic powers, sometimes super psionic powers get downgraded to other categories (in particular we see this with bio-manipulation and hypnotic suggestion most often; there may be others). you can argue either way, but this is not by any means conclusive evidence that super psionic powers (including, say, empathic projection) cannot also be sensitive (or physical or healing). certainly, a GM who rules that super psionics can be lesser categories also will need to decide whether palladium meant to include anything that is at least partly sensitive or only things that are fully sensitive (or physical, or healing), and given that super psionics are never explicitly defined as being from one lesser category or another the most reasonable assumption is that it is meant to be the latter rather than the former, but it is possible to interpret it to mean either one. this would just be an example of less-than-perfect editing, and frankly, i don't find "but that would mean poor editing" to be anything remotely like conclusive proof that something is not the case for palladium.

2) as killer cyborg noted, there are other examples. the commune with spirits power explicitly goes against the interpretation you're claiming; one says only X works, the other says that Y, which is not X, definitely works. again, obviously not an exhaustive list. all manner of other sensitive powers can communicate on some level; the presence or absence of supernatural beings, psionics, magic, etc, can *all* be communicated between coexisting astral beings and the physical world, for example, and yes, that is communication (unless you want to argue that you can use telemechanic mental operation to broadcast the presence of psionics, but not to say hello for example) based on the later sentence in that same paragraph of that same power. the power conflicts with itself; we can only include that it was not intended to be an exhaustive list.

3) nevertheless, it is not an example of communicating without telepathy because it *does* use telepathy. if i say you can't start a car without some form of fuel and you come up with a mixture of gasoline and some non-fuel additive that works, you haven't proven that you can start a car without some form of fuel, because you still used fuel, regardless of what you combined it with. astral projection says you can't communicate without using telepathy. telemechanics uses telepathy, and so presumably would the other telemechanic powers, and as such they do not constitute a clear example of communicating between coexisting and the physical world by means other than telepathy or empathy, and as such do not explicitly violate that rule, and no explicit exception would need to be made.

now, again, that doesn't mean that telemechanic mental operation definitely for sure can be used from astral projection either. the GM will need to make a decision as to how that's going to work in their games. but it does mean that there is no clear "Rules As Written" argument; the rules are not written clearly enough to make a conclusive statement one way or the other regarding how that specific interaction works. a given GM could rule that they don't think super psionics can also count as other categories no matter how much they are simply modified versions of lesser category powers, or not. the GM could also rule that telemechanic mental operation, while including elements of object read and telepathy, also includes elements of, say, electrokinesis, and in that GM's opinion electrokinesis is a physical power, and cannot be used from a coexisting astral being to the physical world whether it has the help of sensitive powers or not... or could decide that a physical power combined with a sensitive power satisfies the requirement, or could decide that just as machine ghost is a purely sensitive power that can modify electrical devices (computers are essentially highly complex systems comprised of many very tiny electrical switches), telemechanic mental operation does not require any phsyical powers to be used...

ultimately, there is just no absolutely clear conclusion that can be drawn here. much like any number of other things in a PB game, the GM will have to decide how they want to interpret those rules for their game.

in this situation, we have many answers that can be potentially right, but "the rules are clearly written to make only one conclusion possible" is not one of those potentially right answers, regardless of what conclusion you think the rules are clearly written to state, because the rules are about as clear as mud. you can tell they're about as clear as mud because this topic comes up on a semi-regular basis, and there are always people on both sides of the argument.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:40 am
  

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eliakon wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Shark_Force wrote:
eliakon wrote:
I reread the power today and noticed something that I missed.
And that is that Telemechanic Mental Operation is explicitly barred by the description of the Astral Projection power.
Let me say that again. The description explicitly bans the use of that power from the astral!

How do I figure.
"The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy" That is pretty cut and dried.
It does not say "Or any other power that is similar in nature" It says "These two and only these two powers can be used, la la la"
TMO allows for the communication with the physical world and therefore is explicitly banned.


1) that conflicts with the description of the power in the same paragraph where it says that other sensitive powers (with range greater than touch) can be used, and as such is questionable that it means what you want it to mean at best. it is furthermore evident that it is not an exhaustive list since, for example, you can use sign language, pantomime, charades, etc to communicate with people who can see astral beings for example.

2) telemechanics "...is a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy..." (RUE page 183, 'Telemechanics' description, paragraph 1, sentence 2), and as such is not an example of communication with the physical world without using telepathy. telemechanic mental operation, telemechanic paralysis, and telemechanic possession are based on the same principles as telemechanics, and as such are presumably also a "bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy" (possibly with something else mixed in, though that isn't specified).

now, if you wish to interpret the power to disallow those powers on the basis that you don't believe super psionics can also be sensitive powers, or you believe that super psionic powers can be of other categories but telemechanics and/or the telemechanics family are not sensitive powers, or simply because you don't want them to work that way in your game even if you think both of those previous arguments are true, or really any number of other reasons, you certainly can interpret it that way. but no, that sentence does not mean that telemechanic mental operation definitively cannot work from astral projection.


1) I would say that it is pretty obvious that Super Psionics can not also be Sensitive Powers.
This is easily demonstrated by simply noting that there are several classes and races that get all Sensitive Powers but do NOT get any Super Psionics... This means that making Super Psionics to be sensitive is a house rule. At which point you are outside of the RAW and its not relevant.

2) the argument that you can make sign language so the ban doesn't really exist is absurd. The ban is pretty clearly what it is... a ban on what powers can be used to communicate with the physical world. Claiming that an explicit ban in a text doesn't really exist is pretty much the definition of house ruling... which, again is stepping outside of RAW and takes us beyond any ability to discuss anything since there is no discussion when the discussion is "Well I changed the rules to do what I want"

3) Telemechanics is NOT just a variation of Telepathy and thus a loophole. It is, "A bizzare combination of Telepathy and Object Read but that applies to machines" That is pretty clearly NOT 'Telepathy'. Astral Projection does not say Ttelepathy, Empathy and any power that is built from them, or based on them, or sort of uses them in some novel way" Words matter, and in this case the Author chose to make a pretty explicit limitation. They could have made it "telepathy and empathy" but they didnt. They made it Telepathy and Empathy. This is an important distinction. They made it two specific named powers and not the classes of powers themselves. This is important because this means that when looking at what can cross it is not "all forms of telepathy and empathy" it is "The specific powers of Telepathy and Empathy".


The book also states They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc.
Due to the nature of Sensitive powers, this indicates that the list of ways to communicate is NOT limited to just Telepathy and Empathy.

Commune With Spirits, for example, is a Sensitive power.
In fact, the description starts off with:
Using this power, a psychic can "feel" (not see) the presence of spirits. The term "spirit" includes entities (including ghosts and possessing ones), invisible Astral Travelers/Astral Beings...
Followed by:
The psychic can ask the spirit questions by speaking aloud, although the creature often understands the questions on an empathic or intuitive level. Only the psychic hears the answer (unless he's using a group trance) and the answer can be in words or powerful emotions...

This power is a Sensitive power that can contact Astral Travelers, even though it's not Empathy or Telepathy.
It's also a power that can communicate on an empathic level, even though it's not Empathy.

And the power itself is a listed exemption to the rule then isn't it.


Not necessarily, no.
It could simply be a listed example of the kind of thing that the rule is talking about.
Didn't you get that from what I just said...?
:?

Quote:
And more to the point you are citing the wrong rule. I understand that you can affect the world with other sensitive powers... but you can not COMMUNICATE with it unless your power is Telepathy, Empathy or has a specific exemption.
Thus you can affect the world by doing such things as checking out an aura, scaning for evil or what have you...


What's your line between "affecting the world" and "communicating with the world?"
Because I don't think mine is in the same place.
And I don't think that Palladium's is either.

Quote:
I do not see such a specific and explicit exemption to the rule in Telemechanics.


I'm not arguing in favor of Telemechanics being able to affect the physical world from an Astral Traveler.

Quote:
Which is how rules work. They apply in all cases where there is not a specific exemption.


Sure... but the application of the rules is not always the way that YOU interpret the rule, and the ways that the rules are applied--like Sensitive powers being able to communicate or interact with astral bodies (or vice-versa) don't seem to fit your interpretation.

Quote:
Now, sure you can house rule it that way all you want... but RAW is a different matter entirely.


RAW is always a broken, unplayable mess, in part because Palladium says stuff like "Telepathy and empathy" in one example, and "Sensetive psionics" in another example.
But also because the moment one tries to interpret RAW, one begins assuming RAI.

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Last edited by Killer Cyborg on Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:49 am
  

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Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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eliakon wrote:
"The Astral Body can not communicate with the physical world except through Telepathy or Empathy" That is pretty cut and dried.
It does not say "Or any other power that is similar in nature" It says "These two and only these two powers can be used, la la la"
TMO allows for the communication with the physical world and therefore is explicitly banned.

I think possibly "implicitly" might be more appropriate here, since the ability isn't explicitly named, but it appears to fall within parameters.

I believe we should question the context of this statement though, because communication via gesture, air-writing, word-mouthing and sign language would be as implicitly banned as TMO is.

Can we reasonably believe those aren't options to get around the lack of sound for those capable of seeing you?

On the very next page (RUE 172) for example, "Commune with Spirits" specifies that "spirit" includes "invisible Astral Travelers / Astral Beings" and that "the psychic hears the answer".
    (seems KC already ID'd this... but I wrote this before I saw his reply)

This appears discredits the idea that a power must explicitly be named to allow communication.

Killer Cyborg wrote:
You lost me at "ecto-traveler."

Mindwerks page 39, turns out I was wrong though:
    Normally the astral traveler cannot interact with the material plane. Instead, he is like a ghost who watches events unfold before him. This is not the case with the ecto-traveler! The implants give the character the unprecedented ability to manifest a physical body

I don't 100% agree with the phrasing here though. After all, isn't using Telepathy to communicate with someone on the material plane "interacting" with it?

Killer Cyborg wrote:
they would involve some kind of Sensitive power in order to see the astral traveler, who is otherwise invisible.

Correct, but that would be "See Invisible", not "Telepathy" or "Empathy".

Killer Cyborg wrote:
The book also states They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc.
Due to the nature of Sensitive powers, this indicates that the list of ways to communicate is NOT limited to just Telepathy and Empathy.

That does seem odd though, how exactly does Clairvoyance affect the physical world?

eliakon wrote:
And the power itself is a listed exemption to the rule then isn't it.

No, CWS makes no reference to any exemptions. I see it as informing us that this isn't limited to Telepathy and Empathy the way you think it is.

eliakon wrote:
I do not see such a specific and explicit exemption to the rule in Telemechanics.

It wouldn't need one, since it is a form of Telepathy, it is explicitly included.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:25 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
On the very next page (RUE 172) for example, "Commune with Spirits" specifies that "spirit" includes "invisible Astral Travelers / Astral Beings" and that "the psychic hears the answer".
    (seems KC already ID'd this... but I wrote this before I saw his reply)

This appears discredits the idea that a power must explicitly be named to allow communication.


Agreed.
Which is why I go with the line about Sensitive powers in general, instead of the line that only specifies telepathy and empathy.

Quote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
You lost me at "ecto-traveler."

Mindwerks page 39, turns out I was wrong though:
    Normally the astral traveler cannot interact with the material plane. Instead, he is like a ghost who watches events unfold before him. This is not the case with the ecto-traveler! The implants give the character the unprecedented ability to manifest a physical body

I don't 100% agree with the phrasing here though. After all, isn't using Telepathy to communicate with someone on the material plane "interacting" with it?


Arguably, yes.
I agree that the phrasing could be better.

Quote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
they would involve some kind of Sensitive power in order to see the astral traveler, who is otherwise invisible.

Correct, but that would be "See Invisible", not "Telepathy" or "Empathy".


Yes.
Again, this is why I go with "Sensitive powers" instead of strictly just Telepathy and Empathy.

Quote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
The book also states They can generally only affect the physical world (or themselves be affected from physical beings) by Sensitive powers such as Telepathy, Clairvoyance, Empathy, etc.
Due to the nature of Sensitive powers, this indicates that the list of ways to communicate is NOT limited to just Telepathy and Empathy.

That does seem odd though, how exactly does Clairvoyance affect the physical world?


I have wondered the same thing.
I suppose that a Clairvoyant could have a vision about somebody who was traveling astrally, and that might be considered to be an affect on the one having the vision.
But it seems a strange power to throw into the mix.

Quote:
eliakon wrote:
I do not see such a specific and explicit exemption to the rule in Telemechanics.

It wouldn't need one, since it is a form of Telepathy, it is explicitly included.


Not exactly.
Telemechanics is not a "form of telepathy," in that it's not a subset of Telepathy. It's its own power, with its own entry, and it has no requirements for the psychic to have Telepathy to use Telemechanics, unlike--for example--Telemechanic Paralysis, which requires the psychic to already have Telemechanics in order to choose this power.
A person can have Telepathy without having Telemechanics, and a person can have Telemechanics without having Telepathy.
It's not a "form of" Telepathy.

What the book says is that Telemechanics "is a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy."
You're taking that quite literally, that it's actually/i] a synthesis of those two powers, but since Telemechanics doesn't hold either of those powers as a prerequisite, that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
Telemechanics is not what you get when you literally combine Object Read and Telepathy.
This is made clearer when one reads the entire sentence:
RUE 183
This psi-power is a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy, except that it applies to mechanical devices only.
The key part is "except that," meaning in this case "only not actually, because..."

When the book states that TM is a "combination" of those powers, it only means that in an analogous sense, the same way as somebody might pitch a movie script as "Titanic meets Deep Rising," or "It's part Hunger Games, and part E.T."
It doesn't mean that there's a literal combination taking place, only that there are [i]similar
elements that are fused together into something different.

Just because a rule in a book states that Telepathy might be used for something, does not mean that Telemechanics can do the same thing.

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:41 pm
  

Palladin

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super telekinesis does not require that you know telekinesis, but it would be silly to argue that it isn't an advanced form of telekinesis. empathic transmission does not require empathy, and yet is clearly an advanced form of empathy. group mind block is an advanced form of mind block, but does not require mind block. super bio-regeneration is an advanced form of bio-regeneration that does not require regular bio-regeneration. telekinetic punch, push, lift, and leap do not require regular telekinesis either.

it does not appear that we can conclude that a power is only an advanced form of another if it requires that other power as a prerequisite; certainly, that would be a strong indicator that it is an advanced form, but it can't be the only allowable form of evidence.

additionally, i would point out that while the bizarre combination of telepathy and object read does have an exception to being said bizarre combination, that exception is that it has an added limitation; nothing indicates that it goes *beyond* a fusion of telepathy and object read. the exception means it is only part of what a combination of object read and telepathy could do... presumably a full combination would be like telemechanics, except not limited to mechanical devices only.

now, again, this doesn't mean that telemechanics family powers (with the exception of telemechanics, it has a range of touch) definitely can be used while astrally projecting. that relies on too many other assumptions which we have no basis to state the rules definitely tell us something; it fully depends on how the GM thinks things should work in his or her interpretation of the rules.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:45 pm
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
super telekinesis does not require that you know telekinesis, but it would be silly to argue that it isn't an advanced form of telekinesis.


Agreed.
In the case of Super TK, the phrasing is (RUE 182) "The power is basically the same as the ability described in the Physical category of psionic powers, but greatly enhanced. Differences are...."
Unlike Telemechanics, this isn't an analogy: the powers are both named "Telekinesis," only one has Super in the title.

On the other hand, Telekinetic Acceleration Attack and Telekinetic Force Field are different powers than Telekinesis.
TKAA "uses telekinetic power," yes, but in most cases where a rule might refer to "telekinesis" being able to do something, TKAA would NOT be able to do the same thing; it's a different power.
If there were a FAQ along the lines of "Can you uses Telekinesis to choke a person," for example, and the answer was "yes," with a list of damage and such, it wouldn't make sense for the answer regarding "Telekinesis" to apply to TKAA.
Same with Telekinetic Force Field.

Just because "Telekinesis" can do something does NOT mean that other, different telekinetic powers can do the same thing.

Quote:
empathic transmission does not require empathy, and yet is clearly an advanced form of empathy.


Hm. I don't think that conclusion is so clear.
Empathy is (RUE 172) "a psi ability that makes the psychic aware of, or feel, the emotions of other people, animals, and supernatural creatures."
Empathic Transmission "enables the psychic to instill a powerful emotion into another living creature."

Arguing that the second is the same as the first is kind of like arguing that speaking is a form of listening.

Quote:
group mind block is an advanced form of mind block, but does not require mind block.


A "mind block" is a number of things.
First, it is a mental barrier that "prevents penetration of telepathy, empathy, hypnotic suggestion, day dream, and empathic transmission."
Second, it is the name of the minor psychic power that allows one to give oneself a temporary Mind Block.

Group Mind Block is a power that also allows for the creation of "mind blocks," but it is itself NOT the same power as "Mind Block."
This is similar to how both the spell "Impervious to Energy" and the spell "Invulnerability" make the target impervious to energy, but Invulnerability is NOT a form of the spell "Impervious to Energy."
Although it does create a form of the effect of being impervious to energy.

Quote:
super bio-regeneration is an advanced form of bio-regeneration that does not require regular bio-regeneration.


As with Mind Block, we're dealing with a situation where the power itself creates an effect that happens to have the same name, but not all sources of that effect are forms of the power of the same name.
If you follow.
For example, many supernatural creatures have bio-regeneration as an effect of being a supernatural creature, but their bio-regeneration is quite different than the minor Healing Psionic of the name "bio-regeneration," and the supernatural creature bio-regeneration effect is NOT a subset or kind of that psionic power.
The first line in the description of "Bio-Regeneration" is (RUE 178) "Another bio-manipulation power..."
Another power, not the same power.

Quote:
telekinetic punch, push, lift, and leap do not require regular telekinesis either.


Same as with TK Acceleration Attack, and TK Force Field.
They're different powers than regular Telekinesis, and therefore they can't necessarily do the same things that regular telekinesis can.

Quote:
it does not appear that we can conclude that a power is only an advanced form of another if it requires that other power as a prerequisite; certainly, that would be a strong indicator that it is an advanced form, but it can't be the only allowable form of evidence.


I have to agree that we cannot conclude that a power is ONLY an advanced form of another if it requires that other power as a prerequisite.

I therefore retract the bolded portion of my previous post as being superfluous (or merely inconclusive):
Telemechanics is not a "form of telepathy," in that it's not a subset of Telepathy. It's its own power, with its own entry, and it has no requirements for the psychic to have Telepathy to use Telemechanics, unlike--for example--Telemechanic Paralysis, which requires the psychic to already have Telemechanics in order to choose this power.
A person can have Telepathy without having Telemechanics, and a person can have Telemechanics without having Telepathy.

It's not a "form of" Telepathy.

Quote:
additionally, i would point out that while the bizarre combination of telepathy and object read does have an exception to being said bizarre combination, that exception is that it has an added limitation; nothing indicates that it goes *beyond* a fusion of telepathy and object read. the exception means it is only part of what a combination of object read and telepathy could do... presumably a full combination would be like telemechanics, except not limited to mechanical devices only.


An exception so large that it reduces the "combination" comment down to being a simple analogy.

Quote:
now, again, this doesn't mean that telemechanics family powers (with the exception of telemechanics, it has a range of touch) definitely can be used while astrally projecting. that relies on too many other assumptions which we have no basis to state the rules definitely tell us something; it fully depends on how the GM thinks things should work in his or her interpretation of the rules.


I agree that it's [i]arguable
that Telemechanics and such could work from an astral traveler to the material plane... but yes, it depends on how the GM interprets things.
Strictly speaking, Telemechanics is neither Telepathy, nor any other Sensitive psychic power, so by the letter of the law, Telemechanics would not work that way.
But more casually speaking--and Palladium is often a casual sort of game--I can't say with 100% certainty that the intent of the authors was to exclude Telemechanics.

I do think that what makes the most sense is that--given the examples we of powers that can interact with the tangible world are all mental Sensitive powers--the reason why those powers work is because they interact with minds, because minds are more than just physical things (at least in the game world).
You can use Telepathy, because the target has a mind.
You can use Empathy, because the target has a mind.
The powers are targeting a non-physical entity that is housed in a physical body, NOT a part of the physical world.

Using that assumption as the basis for interpretation, I'd personally allow for powers such as Empathic Transmission, Group Mind Block, Radiate Horror Factor, and other similar powers to work, but not powers such as Object Read, Telekinesis, or Telemechanics, because those powers target physical objects, not people: not minds.
In the case of a machine that is so advances as to have a mind, such as Archie, I'd say that Telepathy could be used, but that Telemechanics... well, IIRC that power doesn't seem to function with truly sentient computers the way it does with normal machines, even in the real world.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:45 am
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 6894
eh, well, truthfully i feel like the palladium system could really use a clean-up of how their powers are defined. sensitive powers being powers that manipulate the mind, healing powers manipulating the body of oneself or another, and physical powers manipulating energy in the world (so telekinesis would manipulate kinetic energy, for example) would provide a much better framework. sadly, palladium has powers that definitely buck these trends; summon inner strength, for example, i would argue is very much about manipulating the body, and yet it's a physical power (in fact, i would argue quite a few physical powers should be healing powers. ectoplasm probably has more to do with the mind imo; i would consider it almost to be a substance that is highly responsive to thoughts and emotions, for example. meanwhile healing has detect psionics, which i would consider to be more sensitive in nature. meanwhile sensitive has not just the ability to sense all manner of things that are not minds (which i'm mostly ok with, provided we presume the psychic is essentially manipulating their own mind to have an extra sense), but also the ability to mask such things, which just feels really odd to me; masking ISP and PPE feels more like an example of changing the energy in the world to hide the emanations that presumably come from those things).

if we had such a system, the limitation to sensitive powers would likely be a lot more intuitive. that said, i think the idea behind a power like read object is more or less that thoughts have an existence separate from the mind of the thinker, to some extent, and that sustained thoughts (especially intense ones, like strong emotions) can continue to exist long after the thinker has moved on. those would probably fall under sensitive as well, and such thoughts would probably still fall under manipulation of the mind, which would still be sensitive ;)

it would be nice to give it a re-write some time. but probably not nice enough that i'd want kevin to take time away from other projects, so i'll just put up with what we have. or maybe some day i'll get off my butt and make a system myself, and see if others are interested :)


regardless, i have never argued that telemechanics *is* telepathy, merely that it *uses* telepathy, in combination with other things. of course, that's only relevant if we go with eliakon's belief that astral projection only allows the specific subset of powers it lists, which appears to be a belief only he holds (for everyone else, based on the fact that such an interpretation causes the power to conflict with itself in multiple places, that list appears to be considered more a list of examples rather than an exhaustive list of every possibility).

so, i'm more than willing to drop it, so long as eliakon doesn't want to keep arguing that point.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:28 pm
  

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Shark_Force wrote:
eh, well, truthfully i feel like the palladium system could really use a clean-up of how their powers are defined.


I absolutely cannot argue against that idea.
:D

Quote:
sensitive powers being powers that manipulate the mind, healing powers manipulating the body of oneself or another, and physical powers manipulating energy in the world (so telekinesis would manipulate kinetic energy, for example) would provide a much better framework. sadly, palladium has powers that definitely buck these trends; summon inner strength, for example, i would argue is very much about manipulating the body, and yet it's a physical power (in fact, i would argue quite a few physical powers should be healing powers. ectoplasm probably has more to do with the mind imo; i would consider it almost to be a substance that is highly responsive to thoughts and emotions, for example. meanwhile healing has detect psionics, which i would consider to be more sensitive in nature. meanwhile sensitive has not just the ability to sense all manner of things that are not minds (which i'm mostly ok with, provided we presume the psychic is essentially manipulating their own mind to have an extra sense), but also the ability to mask such things, which just feels really odd to me; masking ISP and PPE feels more like an example of changing the energy in the world to hide the emanations that presumably come from those things).

if we had such a system, the limitation to sensitive powers would likely be a lot more intuitive. that said, i think the idea behind a power like read object is more or less that thoughts have an existence separate from the mind of the thinker, to some extent, and that sustained thoughts (especially intense ones, like strong emotions) can continue to exist long after the thinker has moved on. those would probably fall under sensitive as well, and such thoughts would probably still fall under manipulation of the mind, which would still be sensitive ;)

it would be nice to give it a re-write some time. but probably not nice enough that i'd want kevin to take time away from other projects, so i'll just put up with what we have. or maybe some day i'll get off my butt and make a system myself, and see if others are interested :)

regardless, i have never argued that telemechanics *is* telepathy, merely that it *uses* telepathy, in combination with other things. of course, that's only relevant if we go with eliakon's belief that astral projection only allows the specific subset of powers it lists, which appears to be a belief only he holds (for everyone else, based on the fact that such an interpretation causes the power to conflict with itself in multiple places, that list appears to be considered more a list of examples rather than an exhaustive list of every possibility).

so, i'm more than willing to drop it, so long as eliakon doesn't want to keep arguing that point.


:ok:

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:54 am
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
What the book says is that Telemechanics "is a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy."
You're taking that quite literally, that it's [i]actually/i] a synthesis of those two powers, but since Telemechanics doesn't hold either of those powers as a prerequisite, that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

I don't see why that's necessary. Mind Block Auto-Defense doesn't have Mind Block as a prerequisite, after all, but it's clearly a form of Mind Block. Telekinesis (Super) doesn't have Telekinesis as a prereq, but it's clearly a form of Telekinesis.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:06 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
What the book says is that Telemechanics "is a bizarre combination of Object Read and Telepathy."
You're taking that quite literally, that it's actually a synthesis of those two powers, but since Telemechanics doesn't hold either of those powers as a prerequisite, that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

I don't see why that's necessary. Mind Block Auto-Defense doesn't have Mind Block as a prerequisite, after all, but it's clearly a form of Mind Block. Telekinesis (Super) doesn't have Telekinesis as a prereq, but it's clearly a form of Telekinesis.


See my conversation with Shark_Force.

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