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Unread postPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:20 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:41 pm
Posts: 14
Your challenge, should you decide to accept, is to design a stand-alone TW factory that produces a standard micro missile for sale to mercs.

By stand-alone, the only input that the factory can receive is PPE.

The rules:

1. The technowizard creation rules from RUE are to be used RAW.
2. All spells across rifts and rifters are permitted (please cite the source and page)
3. Custom spells are permitted, but please detail them in your entry.

4. Have Fun.


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Unread postPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 3:32 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 6825
do the micro-missiles need to have any specific qualities? for example, do they need to work in regular micro-missile launchers, and do they need to have certain range, damage, aoe, or other attributes? do they need to work for people who ordinarily have no ability to use techno-wizardry weapons, or is it acceptable to be limited to mages, psychics, etc?


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Unread postPosted: Sat May 05, 2018 9:43 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:41 pm
Posts: 14
these are intended to be mundane mini-missiles of any standard variety for sale to man at arms in the area or on the black market.

They need to work for people without the ability to use ppe or isp.

the Factory doesn't need to be used by mundanes, but the missiles do.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:11 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 3637
The first step would be figuring out the "Spell Chain" (page 132) could create a missile. For creating something tangible I'm prone to starting with Throwing Stones as the Primary Spell. Then you might want to add a higher-damage spell like Fire Globe as a Secondary Spell to boost it and give it a longer duration.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:23 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:41 pm
Posts: 14
Axelmania wrote:
The first step would be figuring out the "Spell Chain" (page 132) could create a missile. For creating something tangible I'm prone to starting with Throwing Stones as the Primary Spell. Then you might want to add a higher-damage spell like Fire Globe as a Secondary Spell to boost it and give it a longer duration.


Not what the challenge is after.

The missile is to be mundane. no magic in the product.

the challenge is to create a TW Factory that makes them. multiple machines are acceptable.


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:11 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 818
chris257 wrote:
Axelmania wrote:
The first step would be figuring out the "Spell Chain" (page 132) could create a missile. For creating something tangible I'm prone to starting with Throwing Stones as the Primary Spell. Then you might want to add a higher-damage spell like Fire Globe as a Secondary Spell to boost it and give it a longer duration.


Not what the challenge is after.

The missile is to be mundane. no magic in the product.

the challenge is to create a TW Factory that makes them. multiple machines are acceptable.

No magic in the product? I'd suggest just making up the spell "Create Mundane Micro-missle." Otherwise, you are looking at spells to create raw materials, then change those raw materials into the products that you need, including things like fuel and explosives, and all without running afoul of spell durations (so basically permanent).


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:14 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:41 pm
Posts: 14
... I'm not proposing a magic item.

Factory. TECHnowizardy.

People seem to be assuming that it's all magic, and ignoring what technology can do by itself.


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:33 am
  

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Champion

Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:52 pm
Posts: 1623
Location: Lehigh Valley, American Empire, Earth
chris257 wrote:
... I'm not proposing a magic item.

Factory. TECHnowizardy.

People seem to be assuming that it's all magic, and ignoring what technology can do by itself.
Tricky part is the "only input that the factory can receive is PPE" part. We have no way to create the raw product for processing. Even Create Steel actually needs material. Bending that, Earth, or Water spells to end up with anything resembling mundane missile components for just PPE cost is more than most GMs would be willing to allow.

_________________
Talking to you is sort of the conversational equivalent of an out-of-body experience. -Susie (Calvin and Hobbes)
It's not impossible, it's just really unfair. :( -Trance Gemini (Andromeda)
Tarnow and Romanov: Neighbors!

Politeness is not a shield, and criticism is not a sword to swing repeatedly.


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 9:31 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:41 pm
Posts: 14
Armorlord wrote:
chris257 wrote:
... I'm not proposing a magic item.

Factory. TECHnowizardy.

People seem to be assuming that it's all magic, and ignoring what technology can do by itself.
Tricky part is the "only input that the factory can receive is PPE" part. We have no way to create the raw product for processing. Even Create Steel actually needs material. Bending that, Earth, or Water spells to end up with anything resembling mundane missile components for just PPE cost is more than most GMs would be willing to allow.


You have a good point.
Game wise, most gm's are concerned about balance.
I don't see this as something a starting or even experienced TW's could put together.

This is meant as a thought exercise to try and get people thinking about a different focus to technowizardry.
from what i've been reading mostly on the forum, most people seem focused on making the items as... i'm not sure how to put it.
Magic over tech, not a blending?

for example, the TW jetpacks use flying spells.

it's a jetpack. ignite flame, fuel flame, with a related spell with a long duration.
magic working with the tech, not replacing it.


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:30 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10398
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Okay... let me toss my two cents in the ring here.

I am in agreement with BOTH sides here. :lol: I would agree that this is something that magic shouldn't be able to just 'do'. However I also agree that there is often an overlooking of the Tech in Techno-Wizardry.

My thoughts on the process is that the tech can sometimes be direct (like the exemplar jet pack using fire and such)... And sometimes the tech can be subtle the classic TW guns are a good example. They are guns that shoot spells. On the surface they look like just fancy wands... but they are not that at all. What they are in actual fact is that they are technological guns... that have been made to more or less fire spells like a normal gun fires bullets or blasts. They can do things no wand could ever hope to accomplish... for example a TW rifle can be used to make a sniper shot. A pair of TW Pistols can be wielded by a Sharpshooter. They can get scopes added. BUT as they are a blend of magic and technology they require things that no wand would ever need as well. You need a Weapon Proficency to use a gun properly... even a TW one. Which makes the fact that they are built into so many different weapons of great frusteration to some people... "Well it is a nice weapon sure... but I dont have WP Shotgun/Submachine Gun/Heavy/Smurf/Whatever" has been the lament of many a character in my experiance.

NOW that said... a TW making a missile plant?
Hmmmm.
I need a mini-missile plant. But the problem is that we are on a planet where I dont have access to a good trained workforce, nor do I have the proper materials in the needed quantity. BUT I do have a bunch of Techno-Wizards.
Not A Problem.

My Technowizard get to work as we construct a normal if one that is a bit old school (1940s or so hand assembly line). As we construct the work stations my Techno-Wizards will modify the tools and machines used by the workers... with the spell Instill Knowledge to make it so that my untrained workers just know how to do their jobs. Create Wood, Fire Blossom, Globe of Fire, Purification, Cleanse, apparition, Illusion Manipulation are the core of the chains used to modify the processing equipment... allowing it to create an explosive material (for fuel and warheads) out of organic dusts. For the missile parts themselves I take an existing exemplar and use it as the core of a machine that contains Create Steel, Mend the Broken, Cleanse, Purification, Telekinesis, Machine Empathy (Rifter #2), Ley Line Communications, Energy Sphere, Talisman to effectively continously disassemble my exemplare while simultaniously mending it thus allowing me a supply of parts for my suddenly compentent workers to build and fill with their magically created fuel and explosives.

The result is a factory that using a blend of magic and machinery churns out mini-missiles (or short range missiles, or...).

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:47 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:52 pm
Posts: 1623
Location: Lehigh Valley, American Empire, Earth
chris257 wrote:
Armorlord wrote:
chris257 wrote:
... I'm not proposing a magic item.

Factory. TECHnowizardy.

People seem to be assuming that it's all magic, and ignoring what technology can do by itself.
Tricky part is the "only input that the factory can receive is PPE" part. We have no way to create the raw product for processing. Even Create Steel actually needs material. Bending that, Earth, or Water spells to end up with anything resembling mundane missile components for just PPE cost is more than most GMs would be willing to allow.


You have a good point.
Game wise, most gm's are concerned about balance.
I don't see this as something a starting or even experienced TW's could put together.

This is meant as a thought exercise to try and get people thinking about a different focus to technowizardry.
from what i've been reading mostly on the forum, most people seem focused on making the items as... i'm not sure how to put it.
Magic over tech, not a blending?

for example, the TW jetpacks use flying spells.

it's a jetpack. ignite flame, fuel flame, with a related spell with a long duration.
magic working with the tech, not replacing it.
Not really a balance issue, not to me, just what you could stretch to achieve the desired result.
However, over the course of the day, I did hit on a seed to make it work. Metropolis. Bend that legendary spell, and I can imagine a large complex TW powered robotic factory with a stream of parts being assembled in an almost mundane way, but, following the line back to the heart of the factory you find ever more complex mechanisms from which the parts emerge, and deep within that are fine tuned machines all tied together in science and sorcery, repeatedly and exactingly disassembling a single mini missile which is the core focus of the entire system, stripping parts and sections with inhuman precision to always leave a certain percentage intact, and swiftly enough to have the components clear as replacement parts magically reform.

The amount of gemstones and PPE to fuel this thing would be monstrous, along with a complex chain including Create Steel, Mend the Broken, Instill Knowledge, and other spells, but I could see it working.
Also room for it to to be sabotaged in a spectacular fashion is someone reached the heart of it as well, above and beyond the usual methods you could apply to a factory.

EDIT: eliakon's ideas with a less sci-fi looking robotic factory and more regular factory seem like a nice style as well. Though I'd still picture it with this TW heart pumping out the components.. maybe even go more actual heart-like and crossed with an old-style furnace for style. TW's gotta have style.

_________________
Talking to you is sort of the conversational equivalent of an out-of-body experience. -Susie (Calvin and Hobbes)
It's not impossible, it's just really unfair. :( -Trance Gemini (Andromeda)
Tarnow and Romanov: Neighbors!

Politeness is not a shield, and criticism is not a sword to swing repeatedly.


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Unread postPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:44 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 42495
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
Break down the mini-missile to identify the parts that need to be fabricated...
-Propulsion
-Airframe(including control fins)
-Warhead
-Guidance System(optional)*

Limitations:
-Must be usable on regular technological firing platforms.

Frankly I'd find it a lot easier to create pure or mostly pure TW missiles incorporating active magic than a 'dead' mini-missile with minimal TW...unless you got plenty of spare parts and components lying about to be assembled.

Well, one potential spell chain could be Create Wood+Ironwood to generate an airframe and housing similar in toughness to cutting edge components. And possibly the combustion chamber.. the wood only has to contain hot combustion gases in a uniform fashion for just long enough to get the missile going on a predictable trajectory.
Propellant could be a contained Fire or Summon Wind(Compressed air rocket!) spell.
Warhead, if you want to go the way of magic spells? Well, plenty of options there, from MIRV'ing Barrage to Fireball to Annihilation...or maybe even create compound warheads...

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:46 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:39 pm
Posts: 4815
Let's start with the workforce: I would combine Magic Warrior with Multiple Image and Instill Knowledge and Memory Bank. Magic Warrior would provide the base of the workers, Multiple Image would multiply the illusion of the Magic Warrior, Memory Bank would be used to get the initial knowledge of the process out of the people who know it, and Instill Knowledge makes that information available to the workers.

For the missile casing, I would go with Create Wood, Ironwood, and Ignite Fire. Create Wood and Ironwood are obvious here, and Ignite Fire would be the fuse which will ignite the fuel in the missile.

For the fuel, I would use Create Water, Water to Wine, Ignite Fire and Fuel Flame with a distillery. Create Water creates the liquid, Water to Wine converts that liquid to something with alcohol content in it, and then Ignite Fire and Fuel Flame is used to provide the flame which will be used to reduce the wine down to something more potent.

For the warhead, I would use Create Water, Water to Wine, Sub-Particle Acceleration, and Fireball. Create Water/Water to Wine to create the basis of the explosive substance, which is made more potent by Sub-Particle Acceleration, and finally Fireball gives it a blast radius.

Guidance, I would use Magic Pigeon and Locate. Locate would be used to find the target, while Magic Pigeon would guide the missile to it.

_________________
Under the Pain of Death
I would Stand Alone
Against an Army of Darkness
And Horrors Unknown


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:28 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:41 pm
Posts: 14
taalismn wrote:
Break down the mini-missile to identify the parts that need to be fabricated...
-Propulsion
-Airframe(including control fins)
-Warhead
-Guidance System(optional)*

Limitations:
-Must be usable on regular technological firing platforms.

Frankly I'd find it a lot easier to create pure or mostly pure TW missiles incorporating active magic than a 'dead' mini-missile with minimal TW...unless you got plenty of spare parts and components lying about to be assembled.

Well, one potential spell chain could be Create Wood+Ironwood to generate an airframe and housing similar in toughness to cutting edge components. And possibly the combustion chamber.. the wood only has to contain hot combustion gases in a uniform fashion for just long enough to get the missile going on a predictable trajectory.
Propellant could be a contained Fire or Summon Wind(Compressed air rocket!) spell.
Warhead, if you want to go the way of magic spells? Well, plenty of options there, from MIRV'ing Barrage to Fireball to Annihilation...or maybe even create compound warheads...


Interesting method. but again mostly magic focused

Quote:
Let's start with the workforce: I would combine Magic Warrior with Multiple Image and Instill Knowledge and Memory Bank. Magic Warrior would provide the base of the workers, Multiple Image would multiply the illusion of the Magic Warrior, Memory Bank would be used to get the initial knowledge of the process out of the people who know it, and Instill Knowledge makes that information available to the workers.

For the missile casing, I would go with Create Wood, Ironwood, and Ignite Fire. Create Wood and Ironwood are obvious here, and Ignite Fire would be the fuse which will ignite the fuel in the missile.

For the fuel, I would use Create Water, Water to Wine, Ignite Fire and Fuel Flame with a distillery. Create Water creates the liquid, Water to Wine converts that liquid to something with alcohol content in it, and then Ignite Fire and Fuel Flame is used to provide the flame which will be used to reduce the wine down to something more potent.

For the warhead, I would use Create Water, Water to Wine, Sub-Particle Acceleration, and Fireball. Create Water/Water to Wine to create the basis of the explosive substance, which is made more potent by Sub-Particle Acceleration, and finally Fireball gives it a blast radius.

Guidance, I would use Magic Pigeon and Locate. Locate would be used to find the target, while Magic Pigeon would guide the missile to it


Not something I would have thought of, but still to magic focused.


What I've been thinking of is something like this.


Station 1 - create wood.
Station 2 - nano fabrication unit taken from rifter 50 or 51 (unofficial vehicle creation rules) takes the wood, uses it as raw material to create the propellent and warhead and plastics.
Station 3 - create clay
Station 4 - robotic station shaping clay into missile body, and diverting some to station 6
Station 5 - transmute clay to iron.
Station 6 - (custom spell) transmute clay to copper (wizard spell based on elemental clay to iron, double cost and halve effected mass. no increase per level
station 7 - nano unit - uses copper and plastics to assemble trigger mechanism and interface with launch unit.
Station 8 - robot assembles all components together.
Station 9 - TW Power plant providing electricity for all none magic stations.

All TW stations are designed to function on a ley line automatically.

This is more along the lines I'm trying to get people to think - magic working with tech, not replacing or supplanting it.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:13 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:39 pm
Posts: 4815
What do you mean too magic focused? The items are created through magic (as that is the only way a factory in which the only thing that goes into it is PPE, which is exactly what you wanted ). And even though they were made by magic, I made it so that they don't need magic to be used.

_________________
Under the Pain of Death
I would Stand Alone
Against an Army of Darkness
And Horrors Unknown


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Unread postPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:28 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:41 pm
Posts: 14
dragonfett wrote:
What do you mean too magic focused? The items are created through magic (as that is the only way a factory in which the only thing that goes into it is PPE, which is exactly what you wanted ). And even though they were made by magic, I made it so that they don't need magic to be used.


This is a factory. what technology can assist with this/replace some of this.

you've used a spell for everything as far as I can tell.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:21 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10398
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
chris257 wrote:
dragonfett wrote:
What do you mean too magic focused? The items are created through magic (as that is the only way a factory in which the only thing that goes into it is PPE, which is exactly what you wanted ). And even though they were made by magic, I made it so that they don't need magic to be used.


This is a factory. what technology can assist with this/replace some of this.

you've used a spell for everything as far as I can tell.

That is what TW does...
...it uses spells in spell chains to get a result.
So a device that uses chain 1 of spells X, Y, and Z to accomplish goal 1 is a TW devices.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:21 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:41 pm
Posts: 14
eliakon wrote:
chris257 wrote:
dragonfett wrote:
What do you mean too magic focused? The items are created through magic (as that is the only way a factory in which the only thing that goes into it is PPE, which is exactly what you wanted ). And even though they were made by magic, I made it so that they don't need magic to be used.


This is a factory. what technology can assist with this/replace some of this.

you've used a spell for everything as far as I can tell.

That is what TW does...
...it uses spells in spell chains to get a result.
So a device that uses chain 1 of spells X, Y, and Z to accomplish goal 1 is a TW devices.


The intent of the challenge was make it more balanced, get more TECH into technowizardry.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:47 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 818
chris257 wrote:
taalismn wrote:
Break down the mini-missile to identify the parts that need to be fabricated...
-Propulsion
-Airframe(including control fins)
-Warhead
-Guidance System(optional)*

Limitations:
-Must be usable on regular technological firing platforms.

Frankly I'd find it a lot easier to create pure or mostly pure TW missiles incorporating active magic than a 'dead' mini-missile with minimal TW...unless you got plenty of spare parts and components lying about to be assembled.

Well, one potential spell chain could be Create Wood+Ironwood to generate an airframe and housing similar in toughness to cutting edge components. And possibly the combustion chamber.. the wood only has to contain hot combustion gases in a uniform fashion for just long enough to get the missile going on a predictable trajectory.
Propellant could be a contained Fire or Summon Wind(Compressed air rocket!) spell.
Warhead, if you want to go the way of magic spells? Well, plenty of options there, from MIRV'ing Barrage to Fireball to Annihilation...or maybe even create compound warheads...


Interesting method. but again mostly magic focused

Quote:
Let's start with the workforce: I would combine Magic Warrior with Multiple Image and Instill Knowledge and Memory Bank. Magic Warrior would provide the base of the workers, Multiple Image would multiply the illusion of the Magic Warrior, Memory Bank would be used to get the initial knowledge of the process out of the people who know it, and Instill Knowledge makes that information available to the workers.

For the missile casing, I would go with Create Wood, Ironwood, and Ignite Fire. Create Wood and Ironwood are obvious here, and Ignite Fire would be the fuse which will ignite the fuel in the missile.

For the fuel, I would use Create Water, Water to Wine, Ignite Fire and Fuel Flame with a distillery. Create Water creates the liquid, Water to Wine converts that liquid to something with alcohol content in it, and then Ignite Fire and Fuel Flame is used to provide the flame which will be used to reduce the wine down to something more potent.

For the warhead, I would use Create Water, Water to Wine, Sub-Particle Acceleration, and Fireball. Create Water/Water to Wine to create the basis of the explosive substance, which is made more potent by Sub-Particle Acceleration, and finally Fireball gives it a blast radius.

Guidance, I would use Magic Pigeon and Locate. Locate would be used to find the target, while Magic Pigeon would guide the missile to it


Not something I would have thought of, but still to magic focused.


What I've been thinking of is something like this.


Station 1 - create wood.
Station 2 - nano fabrication unit taken from rifter 50 or 51 (unofficial vehicle creation rules) takes the wood, uses it as raw material to create the propellent and warhead and plastics.
Station 3 - create clay
Station 4 - robotic station shaping clay into missile body, and diverting some to station 6
Station 5 - transmute clay to iron.
Station 6 - (custom spell) transmute clay to copper (wizard spell based on elemental clay to iron, double cost and halve effected mass. no increase per level
station 7 - nano unit - uses copper and plastics to assemble trigger mechanism and interface with launch unit.
Station 8 - robot assembles all components together.
Station 9 - TW Power plant providing electricity for all none magic stations.

All TW stations are designed to function on a ley line automatically.

This is more along the lines I'm trying to get people to think - magic working with tech, not replacing or supplanting it.

You've violated your own rules for the challenge, which stipulated that the only input to the factory is PPE. Create Wood take particles and fibers from the surrounding area to make the wood, and thus you'd need a non-PPE input for the factory.

You could fix that by maxing "Create Dirt or Clay" be the first spell in the chain and then use that as the raw material for create wood (if, for some reason, the nano-fabrication unit needs wood and couldn't just do the job with clay).

That said, using the nano-fabrication unit is about as cheesy as just making up the spell "Create Mundane Micro-missile". Why would you need the extra steps to make the copper? Why make the clay into iron? If you have nanites capable of taking wood (or clay) and turning it into fuel, warhead, and plastics, what is stopping them from just making the whole thing?


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:11 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 42495
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
The quest may be for a 'PPE Only' factory, but as with such pie-in-the-sky challenges, it is the 'almost there' entries and runners-up that prove the more practical, applicable, and interesting.

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:42 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:41 pm
Posts: 14
taalismn wrote:
The quest may be for a 'PPE Only' factory, but as with such pie-in-the-sky challenges, it is the 'almost there' entries and runners-up that prove the more practical, applicable, and interesting.


That was the point. To try and get people thinking about Technowizardry in this fashion.
Rather than just have it making magic items.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:32 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10398
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
chris257 wrote:
taalismn wrote:
The quest may be for a 'PPE Only' factory, but as with such pie-in-the-sky challenges, it is the 'almost there' entries and runners-up that prove the more practical, applicable, and interesting.


That was the point. To try and get people thinking about Technowizardry in this fashion.
Rather than just have it making magic items.

That though is the heart of TW... making magic items. I mean that is its entire purpose and its entire reason for existence not to mention the entirety of its unique powers.. the making of magic items. The level of magic can change depending on the particulars, and the way that the effect is created can change... but at the end of the day each and every TW device is always a magic item for make no mistake every TW device is a magic item, that's sort of the definition after all. They are items, and they are made by magic, to use magic to accomplish a purpose...

I do get the idea of trying to encourage more of the 'tech' in the TW. And I think that is probably a good thing. But I disagree that it is possible to get away from TWs producing magic items.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:13 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:41 pm
Posts: 14
eliakon wrote:
chris257 wrote:
taalismn wrote:
The quest may be for a 'PPE Only' factory, but as with such pie-in-the-sky challenges, it is the 'almost there' entries and runners-up that prove the more practical, applicable, and interesting.


That was the point. To try and get people thinking about Technowizardry in this fashion.
Rather than just have it making magic items.

That though is the heart of TW... making magic items. I mean that is its entire purpose and its entire reason for existence not to mention the entirety of its unique powers.. the making of magic items. The level of magic can change depending on the particulars, and the way that the effect is created can change... but at the end of the day each and every TW device is always a magic item for make no mistake every TW device is a magic item, that's sort of the definition after all. They are items, and they are made by magic, to use magic to accomplish a purpose...

I do get the idea of trying to encourage more of the 'tech' in the TW. And I think that is probably a good thing. But I disagree that it is possible to get away from TWs producing magic items.


I haven't quite worded this correctly, the concepts harder to articulate than I thought.

I'm not quite trying to get TW's to not produce magic items. but more to use the magic to support rather than supplant.
In one of my posts above I have the example of a jet pack.

Every published example of a TW jet pack i've seen has used a fly spell.
why not use the jetpack and just FUEL it with magic. fire spells to heat the air, and then let the jetpack do what it was designed to do.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:43 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10398
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
chris257 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
chris257 wrote:
taalismn wrote:
The quest may be for a 'PPE Only' factory, but as with such pie-in-the-sky challenges, it is the 'almost there' entries and runners-up that prove the more practical, applicable, and interesting.


That was the point. To try and get people thinking about Technowizardry in this fashion.
Rather than just have it making magic items.

That though is the heart of TW... making magic items. I mean that is its entire purpose and its entire reason for existence not to mention the entirety of its unique powers.. the making of magic items. The level of magic can change depending on the particulars, and the way that the effect is created can change... but at the end of the day each and every TW device is always a magic item for make no mistake every TW device is a magic item, that's sort of the definition after all. They are items, and they are made by magic, to use magic to accomplish a purpose...

I do get the idea of trying to encourage more of the 'tech' in the TW. And I think that is probably a good thing. But I disagree that it is possible to get away from TWs producing magic items.


I haven't quite worded this correctly, the concepts harder to articulate than I thought.

I'm not quite trying to get TW's to not produce magic items. but more to use the magic to support rather than supplant.
In one of my posts above I have the example of a jet pack.

Every published example of a TW jet pack i've seen has used a fly spell.
why not use the jetpack and just FUEL it with magic. fire spells to heat the air, and then let the jetpack do what it was designed to do.

I think the reason is that its simpler.
I can make a jetpack that has one, maybe two spells in the chain which means less gems, less PPE, less time and less points of failure... or I can make a jetpack that has a larger number of other spells (A fire spell, a containment spell, a control spell, a...) to make an actual jet propelled jet pack.
For the most part the flight is going to be more than sufficent for most flight needs, and will likely be quieter. But if you want a jetpack with really high flight speed, then you will need to go the second route since your flight spells cap out at a certain speed unlike actual jets.

One of the other things that people overlook is that the spell chains and such... are the game mechanics not the effects.
A jetpack with the fly spell might actually still fly around on jets of flame or what have you. There is a lot of 'color' that is not described especially in the short bullet point descriptions of most TW devices. When we have the longer descriptions of devices they tend to support the idea of TW actually being a real blend (read the various TW power armors for instance)

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:43 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 10398
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
chris257 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
chris257 wrote:
taalismn wrote:
The quest may be for a 'PPE Only' factory, but as with such pie-in-the-sky challenges, it is the 'almost there' entries and runners-up that prove the more practical, applicable, and interesting.


That was the point. To try and get people thinking about Technowizardry in this fashion.
Rather than just have it making magic items.

That though is the heart of TW... making magic items. I mean that is its entire purpose and its entire reason for existence not to mention the entirety of its unique powers.. the making of magic items. The level of magic can change depending on the particulars, and the way that the effect is created can change... but at the end of the day each and every TW device is always a magic item for make no mistake every TW device is a magic item, that's sort of the definition after all. They are items, and they are made by magic, to use magic to accomplish a purpose...

I do get the idea of trying to encourage more of the 'tech' in the TW. And I think that is probably a good thing. But I disagree that it is possible to get away from TWs producing magic items.


I haven't quite worded this correctly, the concepts harder to articulate than I thought.

I'm not quite trying to get TW's to not produce magic items. but more to use the magic to support rather than supplant.
In one of my posts above I have the example of a jet pack.

Every published example of a TW jet pack i've seen has used a fly spell.
why not use the jetpack and just FUEL it with magic. fire spells to heat the air, and then let the jetpack do what it was designed to do.

I think the reason is that its simpler.
I can make a jetpack that has one, maybe two spells in the chain which means less gems, less PPE, less time and less points of failure... or I can make a jetpack that has a larger number of other spells (A fire spell, a containment spell, a control spell, a...) to make an actual jet propelled jet pack.
For the most part the flight is going to be more than sufficent for most flight needs, and will likely be quieter. But if you want a jetpack with really high flight speed, then you will need to go the second route since your flight spells cap out at a certain speed unlike actual jets.

One of the other things that people overlook is that the spell chains and such... are the game mechanics not the effects.
A jetpack with the fly spell might actually still fly around on jets of flame or what have you. There is a lot of 'color' that is not described especially in the short bullet point descriptions of most TW devices. When we have the longer descriptions of devices they tend to support the idea of TW actually being a real blend (read the various TW power armors for instance)

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:12 pm
  

Palladin

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm
Posts: 6825
chris257 wrote:
I haven't quite worded this correctly, the concepts harder to articulate than I thought.

I'm not quite trying to get TW's to not produce magic items. but more to use the magic to support rather than supplant.
In one of my posts above I have the example of a jet pack.

Every published example of a TW jet pack i've seen has used a fly spell.
why not use the jetpack and just FUEL it with magic. fire spells to heat the air, and then let the jetpack do what it was designed to do.


they have that. it's in the RMB, which has rules for converting regular vehicles to run on TW engines. it's a generic thing, and as such covers every form of vehicle, which includes jetpacks.

so basically, they don't publish new ones... because every time they publish a new jetpack, RMB gives you a TW version of it that runs on PPE.


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