Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

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Carl Gleba
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Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by Carl Gleba »

So we all know from Rifts that Juicer and Crazy technology made a comeback. The question is how much of a comeback? Are the Juicers and Crazies of the Chaos Earth Era deadlier? Do they suffer far less penalties than their Rifts counter parts?

I'm kind of leaning towards them being deadlier, probably the ultimate warriors on the field with less penalties. However there are probably far less then in Rifts earth and I get the feeling they are more corporate than military, meaning they are mostly used by private corporation rather than the military. Although NEMA probably does have a few special forces units composed of these modified men.

Thoughts?

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Last edited by Carl Gleba on Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post by Josh Sinsapaugh »

Deadlier yes.

However, this would probably not be due principally to a refinement of the augmentation process, rather due to training.

Skill-wise, pre-Rifts Juicers would most definitely have skill equivalents to a Special Forces soldier, making them, via that regard, much more deadlier than their Rifts counterpart "Classic" Juicer as well as the CS Juicer.

The bullet-point for (the fabled) NEMA Mission Book: One does mention Juicer variants, though. What those could be, quite frankly scares me.

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Unread post by Dustin Fireblade »

I think you guy's are on the right track.

I would think some minor alterations are in order;
Juicers that live longer and perhaps a better chance to detox later. Of course with the cataclysm and all thats all out the window.

Crazies that have less insanities (I do think the standard Crazy has a few too many). Also the Crazy's implants would be the nano style as mentioned in RUE.

Skill wise I agree would be more along the lines of a Special Forces.

Also may want to keep in mind that neither were common to North America. Juicer's are from Europe and Crazy's from South America(?).
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Unread post by Josh Sinsapaugh »

Dustin Fireblade wrote:Also may want to keep in mind that neither were common to North America. Juicer's are from Europe and Crazy's from South America(?).


Juicers - Principally Germany, as well as US Military Special Forces.

Crazies/M.O.M. - South America, moved to Poland (?) after the Mindwerks company went under in the years preceding the Rifts.

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Unread post by TechnoGothic »

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:Deadlier yes.

However, this would probably not be due principally to a refinement of the augmentation process, rather due to training.

Skill-wise, pre-Rifts Juicers would most definitely have skill equivalents to a Special Forces soldier, making them, via that regard, much more deadlier than their Rifts counterpart "Classic" Juicer as well as the CS Juicer.

The bullet-point for (the fabled) NEMA Mission Book: One does mention Juicer variants, though. What those could be, quite frankly scares me.

~ Josh


i agree.
More juicer varients gets me all inspired for some reason.

Yes, Crazies should gain fewer Insanities. Every third level or every fifth level sounds good. I use every 5th level in my games...
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Unread post by LostOne »

I always envisioned the pre-rifts juicer to be something along the lines of the one presented in Triax (euro-juicer IIRC).

Longer life-span due to less augmentation. They're still super-human and would make excellent pilots for combat fighters and power armors with their enhanced reflexes.
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Unread post by LostOne »

Sir Ysbadden wrote:I could see that but it would not go along with the whole of the golden age tech being as advanced as it is supposed to be. That is why i figured Juicers would be much like the modern day juicers with half of the draw backs.
The reason I think the way I do is this: It was not a military time, so research into that had not progressed as far as it could have. The main book juicer technologies are based on the golden age juicers, but because of the harsher environment in the dark ages they would have been giving the juicer stronger doses resulting in a shorter lifespan. The people during the peaceful golden ages would be more worried about extending lifespan and not have been using as strong of a dose of the chemicals, resulting in juicers weaker than presented in the RMB, but still impressive when compaired to a normal human.

Just because the technology was uber doesn't mean they were wanting to basically slow-murder a soldier over the course of 5-6 years of standby duty. They would emphasize human life and make them live as long as possible.
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Unread post by oni no won »

OK, this is an obvious late answer to this thread but I wanted to chime in.

In RIFTS, there are at the moment, 2 civilizations that have survived and pretty much retained all technology from pre-rift era. One is Japan. The other is Germany.

In the sourcebook, Mindwerks, the degree to which crazies will suffer side effects doesn't change between era. Neither are they more powerful than the crazies of Rifts Earth. There were, however, more variants of crazies as the sourcebook Mindweks shows.

In the Japan sourcebook as well as NGR, you'll notice that juicers are neither more powerful nor more resistent to the inevitable side effect of that procedure. Juicer vs. Jucicer between the two eras will see no noticeable difference in performance between the two with the exception of the individuals genetics and his training. They will still suffer from burnout within 5 years.

Anyway, my 2 cents
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Unread post by asajosh »

Josh Hilden wrote:Mutants in Orbit Juicers live up to 15 years,

:)


Well, technically it says they live twice as long and 3x as long in zero gravity.

This seems like an easy one, a Chaos Earth juicer should have the same stats as a Rifts Earth juicer but use the MiO lifespan (above). Just my humble opinion oh and using the special forces type mos is perfecto :D
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Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

jigahus wrote:After reviewing Mutants in Orbit it mentions advanced juicers having living twice as long so you can use that. Crazies also has a reduction in bonuses but more resistance to psionics. A fair balance move to me.


those differances are the result of a low to micro-gravity enviroment, not any sort of refined process. in space, less strain is put on the body, which is why juicers don't deteriorate as fast. low gravity and microgravity also alter brain chemistry, which explains the M.O.M. differances.
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Unread post by asajosh »

Still seems more sensible to me to use the longer lifspan for CE juicers, seeing as it was the Golden age and all, and Rifts earth is generally not quite up to that level yet.
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Unread post by Exiled_one »

Why must juicers have a longer lifespan 'because its the golden age' ?

Rifts Japan has 4 cities that we rifted in time DIRECTLY FROM THE GOLDEN AGE and their juicers are not fundamentally better in capabilities than 105 PA Juicers, yet are EFFECTIVELY golden age...

If anything I would be inclined to say that Chaos Earth juicers are actually likely to be less good that their post apocalypse bretheren, as at this time there is liable to be greater concern during the development of the process about the drastically reduced lifespan (taking projected lifespans of humans being approximately 120 yrs average in developed countries by that stage) caused by the strain on the body. As the darkages begin it becomes more neccesary to have fighters NOW as opposed to still alive in fifteen years time, so the ethical considerations become less important and the 'full scale' augumentaion is increasingly used rather than the older weaker variants.

The PA 105 Japanese (as far I remember) only use the juicer process for their tech ninja clans (the ninja Juicer OCC) who were probably more interested in the 'high end' performance specs anyway (and the good ninja juicers are detoxed by the clan after 2 years and rebuilt as ninja-borgs anyway). it just happens that the power of the golden age ninja juicer is approximately the same as the basic juicer that has been used for the last couple of hunderd years in rifts

I don't have a problem with the MIO juicers having longer lifespans, since the cataclysm (in which the space colonies were less affected than most of the humans) they have had 300 years more time to research the process, in effect, MIO juicers ARE better than golden age ones. Triax could probably do the same given the inclination, but their focus has always been more on the robotics and Bionics side.

My point? CE Juicers shouldn't be better than modern Rifts ones, the rifts juicer is probably a variant of the CE one, with drastically increased capabilites at the cost of an appallingly short life expectency to go toe-to-toe with the monsters of the rifts, something the CE juicer was never designed (let alone considered to ever have to) do.
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Unread post by Josh Sinsapaugh »

Japan did not lead the world in Juicer technology before the Coming of the Rifts.

They're a poor example, I am sorry to say.

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Unread post by asajosh »

CE Juicers should have a longer lifespan for several reasons:
1) Golden Age tech is the pinnacle of mankind's achievements. Everything in Rifts earth is either re-discoverd or reverse-engineered. It's safe to assume that prior to the cataclysm, they had "Juicer Conversion 4.0" while Rifts cultures have to get by on a less refined technique. Compare the first internal combustion engines to today's. Now imagine it's 300 years since people have seen an engine and you wanna rebuild one from a blue print. Its not gonna be as efficient as a pre-cataclysm model :)

2) The Japanese in Rifts focused more on borgs and robots then anything else, it's reasonable to assume they didn't have the top of the line juicer creation techniques prior to the cataclysm.
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Unread post by Exiled_one »

True, Japan as a whole probably didn't lead the world in Juicer technology, but the only ones who use it are/were the Tech Ninja clans, who are pragmatic enough to realise that they need the best especially given the neo cold war situation of the time just before the rifts and their likely rivals (other shadow agencies) also out fitting their agents with augumentation. Why indeed wouldn't they have acquirred the process from Germany/America as what the Tech Ninja clans do/did best was industrial espionage...

The fact that it's not used in the rest of the Japanese military and exclusively used by a secret society/ies would suggest that it was not developed in Japan (which we know) but pirated from somewhere else. If you are seriously saying that the Tech Ninja or their corperate overlords would be prepared to outfit their agents with a less than top rate most advanced process... :? ...after all the ninja have a reputation to keep.

No, I'm not fanboying Japan (one of my favourite Rifts books tho) I'm more knee jerking on the dreamy 'if its golden age it must be utterly brilliant!!! and SOOOOO much better than anything developed subsequently...' Although I do grant you the Mega Juicer, that one is golden age through and through :P
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Unread post by asajosh »

Exiled_one wrote:True, Japan as a whole probably didn't lead the world in Juicer technology, but the only ones who use it are/were the Tech Ninja clans, who are pragmatic enough to realise that they need the best especially given the neo cold war situation of the time just before the rifts and their likely rivals (other shadow agencies) also out fitting their agents with augumentation. Why indeed wouldn't they have acquirred the process from Germany/America as what the Tech Ninja clans do/did best was industrial espionage...


Good point, but riddle me this: Who's to say what they pirated was the best? Top Grade Commercial is not on par with Top Grade Military! :)

Also filter in the fact that Rifts Japan came out much sooner then CE, so the "pre-rifts" tech in Japan was dreamed up before the rest of the pre-rifts world of CE (more or less).

Play it anyway ya want, untill a CE book comes out specifying "Chaos Juicers" (ooh thats a good one, that OCC name is MINE :P), I'll play mine with the double life span as described in MiO (GM approval of course). It just seems reasonable to me.
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Unread post by Carl Gleba »

Good answers all around and it does give one much to think about. My original line of thinking goes along with asajosh in that the current Juicer in Rifts is at best a copy of the original without all the right parts. They got it to work well enough to sell.

As for the few places like Japan and their tech ninjas. I can see that being stolen and not developed. Of course I have not read Japan in years so if I were to ever do anything along this line it would require some good research. So far it seems everyone here has hit the highlights of where all the Juicer/Crazy info can be found.

For now I'll leave C.E. in Jason Richards capable hands.

Thanks :ok:

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Unread post by Aramanthus »

I'm looking forward to seeing what will happen with that new material from Jason! It should be very good material indeed!
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Unread post by Carl Gleba »

Aramanthus wrote:I'm looking forward to seeing what will happen with that new material from Jason! It should be very good material indeed!


Me too! Jason does some awesome stuff. :ok:

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Unread post by Carl Gleba »

Josh Hilden wrote:
Carl Gleba wrote:
Aramanthus wrote:I'm looking forward to seeing what will happen with that new material from Jason! It should be very good material indeed!


Me too! Jason does some awesome stuff. :ok:

Carl


why Carl, why must you feed the animals?

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:P


Probably cause I'm one of them and like to eat too :P
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Unread post by Aramanthus »

And I like to make sure those people get fed on a very regular basis, so that way they keep writting material for PB!!! :)
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Unread post by oni no won »

asajosh wrote:
Exiled_one wrote:True, Japan as a whole probably didn't lead the world in Juicer technology, but the only ones who use it are/were the Tech Ninja clans, who are pragmatic enough to realise that they need the best especially given the neo cold war situation of the time just before the rifts and their likely rivals (other shadow agencies) also out fitting their agents with augumentation. Why indeed wouldn't they have acquirred the process from Germany/America as what the Tech Ninja clans do/did best was industrial espionage...


Good point, but riddle me this: Who's to say what they pirated was the best? Top Grade Commercial is not on par with Top Grade Military! :)

Also filter in the fact that Rifts Japan came out much sooner then CE, so the "pre-rifts" tech in Japan was dreamed up before the rest of the pre-rifts world of CE (more or less).

Play it anyway ya want, untill a CE book comes out specifying "Chaos Juicers" (ooh thats a good one, that OCC name is MINE :P), I'll play mine with the double life span as described in MiO (GM approval of course). It just seems reasonable to me.


Does it matter how long they live in game terms? Unless the campaign takes multiple years in game terms, I wouldn't care how long my juicer character lived. Hell, if I played him right, he would have gone down in a blaze of glory anyhow.
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Unread post by asajosh »

oni no won wrote:
asajosh wrote:
Exiled_one wrote:True, Japan as a whole probably didn't lead the world in Juicer technology, but the only ones who use it are/were the Tech Ninja clans, who are pragmatic enough to realise that they need the best especially given the neo cold war situation of the time just before the rifts and their likely rivals (other shadow agencies) also out fitting their agents with augumentation. Why indeed wouldn't they have acquirred the process from Germany/America as what the Tech Ninja clans do/did best was industrial espionage...


Good point, but riddle me this: Who's to say what they pirated was the best? Top Grade Commercial is not on par with Top Grade Military! :)

Also filter in the fact that Rifts Japan came out much sooner then CE, so the "pre-rifts" tech in Japan was dreamed up before the rest of the pre-rifts world of CE (more or less).

Play it anyway ya want, untill a CE book comes out specifying "Chaos Juicers" (ooh thats a good one, that OCC name is MINE :P), I'll play mine with the double life span as described in MiO (GM approval of course). It just seems reasonable to me.


Does it matter how long they live in game terms? Unless the campaign takes multiple years in game terms, I wouldn't care how long my juicer character lived. Hell, if I played him right, he would have gone down in a blaze of glory anyhow.


It would make a good literary twist. You'd probably have CE era juicers being more toned down not taking so many crazy risks. After all they have longer lives to look forward to, and a larger window for detox. Besides if the process somehow leaked out to the world of Rifts Earth (vai rift or detailed information discovered, etc) it may be hailed as a new "Phoenix Treatment" that actually works.
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Re: Juice

Unread post by LostOne »

Shadow_Fighter_71 wrote:1) Consider Juicers in Rifts Earth to have a natural life span (before their augmentation) of 60+/- years. Add juice and it drops to maybe 4-6 years.

2) Consider Juicers of Chaos Earth have a natural life span (before augmentation) of 150+/- years. Add juice and it drops to maybe 18-22 years.

I'd say once the cataclysm happens, the natural life span of a human will drop significantly, 50 years tops. Life is a lot harder, medical supplies that we take for granted are almost non-existent, there simply aren't enough labs to manufacture them, and quantities would be limited. Medication doesn't last long outside of temperature and humidity controlled environments like you find in modern pharmacies and homes. Humid, un-air-conditioned environments with variable temperature can cause medications to break down a lot faster.

Quality food supplies are also almost non-existent. Humans won't be getting top nutrition in their diets, they'll be eating a lot of meat from hunted animals who barely survived volcanic ash, and whatever produce they can farm/gather that also barely managed to survive volcanic ash, if any produce survives at all. Canned fruits and vegetables are likely to be treated as a delicacy after a couple years and probably fetch a high price/barter. Canned food simply won't last long, there are no canneries operating to ship new trucks full of canned food to the nearest warehouse-sized brand name chain grocery store.
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Unread post by Kelorin »

It wasn't just the medication available during the Golden Age that accounted for such long lifespans. Remember, that by the time of the cataclysm most people on Earth had been genetically tweaked for better health and longevity.
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Unread post by LostOne »

Kelorin wrote:It wasn't just the medication available during the Golden Age that accounted for such long lifespans. Remember, that by the time of the cataclysm most people on Earth had been genetically tweaked for better health and longevity.

First I ever remember hearing that. Source?

I always got the impression that golden age lifespans were so long due to sophisticated and futuristic medical science.
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Unread post by asajosh »

LostOne wrote:
Kelorin wrote:It wasn't just the medication available during the Golden Age that accounted for such long lifespans. Remember, that by the time of the cataclysm most people on Earth had been genetically tweaked for better health and longevity.

First I ever remember hearing that. Source?

I always got the impression that golden age lifespans were so long due to sophisticated and futuristic medical science.


I've always seen a combination of both. Imagine what medical science will have in the way of pharmecuticals almost 100 years after the human genome has been mapped? Not only that but GE foods that are vitamin packed, artificially cloned meet with no fat/cholestoral. The list goes on.

In short, all these factors contribute to the longer lifespans of humans prior to the Cataclysm and the larger window of better health they enjoy (60 really is the new 30!).
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Unread post by TechnoGothic »

MY copy of R:CE says there are many people in 2098 that are 200 years old and older. Alot of people over 100 years old...etc...Thanks to modern medicine and gene-therapy(sp?) treatments. Most people under 60 have been genetical engineered to some level and appear very much younger than their actual age after reaching adulthood.

That is more or less what i remember it saying...

As for Juicers in R:CE. I say Standard Juicers same as RIFTS. If the German J.A.P. System is used instead, much much longer to full lifespan...
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Unread post by Giant2005 »

Carl Gleba wrote:So far it seems everyone here has hit the highlights of where all the Juicer/Crazy info can be found.

Also, worth mentioning is the Crazy from the Geofront. They haven't been particularly effected by the catacylism and have spent the last 300 years building and refining their technology.
They weren't particularly innovative when it comes to MOM implants but after 300 years of work, I'm pretty sure their Lightning Warriors will be at least as good as Golden Age Crazies.
With that in mind, training aside, the Lightning Warrior is exactly the same as the garden variety Crazy of Rifts Earth.
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Unread post by LostOne »

Giant2005 wrote:Also, worth mentioning is the Crazy from the Geofront. They haven't been particularly effected by the catacylism and have spent the last 300 years building and refining their technology.
They weren't particularly innovative when it comes to MOM implants but after 300 years of work, I'm pretty sure their Lightning Warriors will be at least as good as Golden Age Crazies.
With that in mind, training aside, the Lightning Warrior is exactly the same as the garden variety Crazy of Rifts Earth.

And what book is this found in?
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Unread post by LostOne »

Thanks, haven't seen that book yet.
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Unread post by Josh Sinsapaugh »

TechnoGothic wrote:MY copy of R:CE says there are many people in 2098 that are 200 years old and older. Alot of people over 100 years old...etc...Thanks to modern medicine and gene-therapy(sp?) treatments. Most people under 60 have been genetical engineered to some level and appear very much younger than their actual age after reaching adulthood.

That is more or less what i .remember it saying...


It's a bit of a mis-statement though, and really that should be looked at only as possible lifespan.

For someone to be 200 as of Chaos Earth means they would need to be over 100 today.

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Unread post by LostOne »

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:For someone to be 200 as of Chaos Earth means they would need to be over 100 today.

That's a good point. And while there are plenty of people over 100, none of them have a chance of living to see 200. The old ones you always hear about that are over 100 are the ones sitting in wheelchairs surrounded by friends and family, often in a retirement home or assisted living.
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Unread post by Nightmaster »

I am a lot late on thei tread but I think that CE juicers would be something similar to the Chemical Soldier template that is presented in the experiment type in one of the Power Unlimited books.

I dont remember the right one, if it was the first Powers Unlimited or the the second but there one of the options for Experiments characters was one that is exactly a Juicer. The main difference is that the character can live up to 12 years.

I think that Palladium will go to that example for the Chaos Earth Juicers, with Juicers being able to live up to 12 years old.
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Unread post by Spinachcat »

I suspect the Golden Age had far superior Detox capabilities. Medical technology isn't particularly notable on Rifts Earth except for magical healing.

Let's say for the sake of argument that Juicers could be kept stable in the Golden Age via consistent gene therapy. Maybe the reason Rifts Japan can't keep them stable is due to the lack of these gene therapy super drugs which were controlled by only one Pre-Rifts supercorporation that had its HQ in Denver or SF. And lets say this miracle gene-therapy drug had a terribly short shelf life, like 4 weeks, so keeping long term supplies were impossible.

Either way, it doesn't matter for R:CE because the Juicer is essentially cut off from ALL his supplies the moment the poopie hits the fan. For any PC to live 5 years in R:CE is a major challenge! The Juicer just knows his clock is ticking.
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Unread post by Aramanthus »

A fun thing for my ley line walker to do since he has purify is to use it on Juicers. It's so nice to clean them up before their time limits.
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Unread post by taalismn »

...Provided they WANT to be detoxed...Dealing with an involuntary Detox who suddenly finds himself weaker, can result in a rather interesting enemy to have...I imagine there would be some cumulative effects carrying over if somebody like that got Juiced again...
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Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Josh Sinsapaugh wrote:
TechnoGothic wrote:MY copy of R:CE says there are many people in 2098 that are 200 years old and older. Alot of people over 100 years old...etc...Thanks to modern medicine and gene-therapy(sp?) treatments. Most people under 60 have been genetical engineered to some level and appear very much younger than their actual age after reaching adulthood.

That is more or less what i .remember it saying...


It's a bit of a mis-statement though, and really that should be looked at only as possible lifespan.

For someone to be 200 as of Chaos Earth means they would need to be over 100 today.

~Josh


i always read that as "estimated lifespan". the idea that although no one has reached that age yet (maybe 150-160 at most), the state of medical technology and treatment looked to be able to keep people going strong for at least 200 years, maybe more. no one knew exactly, and wouldn't until one of the old geezer's die.
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Unread post by taalismn »

It's a matter of balancing the ability of the immune system and other self-repair mechanisms of the body to repair themselves versus their ability to repair gross physical damage.....If your infratructure wears out, your strong economy(and your body) goes bust....Also add to that the need to make sure that your infrastructure, in cinstantly rebuilding itself to keep up with the demands placed on it, doesn't inadvertantly mutate...if anuersyms and cardio-infarction doesn't kill'ya, you gotta be careful of cancers popping up...

Without an even more complex suite of life-sustaining nanotech designed for the long haul, makinga Juicer last is no easy business!
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Unread post by Aramanthus »

I know Taalismn! It was forced because of circumstances. Unfortunately for the poor juicer. :D
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by Carl Gleba »

Not bad Retired Juicer :ok:

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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by Carl Gleba »

Iron Manticore wrote:
As to Chaos Earth Juicers. Does anyone not remember how awesome Julian Amici is? He is the James Bond of Juicers. He is a product of pre-Rifts Earth! :)

Julian Amici, FTW!


I forgot all about Julian Amici. Way to go Iron Manticore :ok:

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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by LostOne »

Iron Manticore wrote:
As to Chaos Earth Juicers. Does anyone not remember how awesome Julian Amici is? He is the James Bond of Juicers. He is a product of pre-Rifts Earth! :)

Julian Amici, FTW!

Wasn't he a normal pre-rifts juicer with super spy training? Like James Bond or Jason Bourne with maybe Euro-Juicer equivalent augmentation?
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by TechnoGothic »

Julian the First has lived 5 years past his "Last Call" began.

Also remember the part from the Maxi-Killer Juicer about the Lifespans of various juicers based on the lifespan of the race.
A Pre-Rifts Human may have a Lifespan between 200-1000 years...Why ? What changes were made to them back then.
Then use the Shortened Lifespan info found in Juicers Uprising. Pre-Rifts juicers may live 20-50 years or so. As Juicers !!!
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by TechnoGothic »

I see Medicine prolonging Life for those over 100 right now. We now know once people reach age 95-99 the Body actually stops aging. You will just need to worry with getting sick or injuried in most cases. Future Medicine may even be able to reverse the aging process over time undoing the damages of time to the body.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by Judas »

Mindworks sourcebook has some interesting information on Crazies.

Pre-rifts crazies were still crazy, it seems to be consistant among all types of MOM, Cyberworks pushed it through in under 5 years of testing and only then when it was approved did the insanties start to develop. Cyberworks was about to go bust until a small nuclear exchanged happened...

In the background it did say that even though the MOM had driven the volunteers insane, a good (from memory) 30-40% could still be intergrated back into society.

Imagine the apolocaplse happening and your stuck on a tube train with a crazy that when the lights go out you realise is afraid of the dark and has a love for static electricity and therefore starts whimpering in your ear as he rubs a balloon on your head...
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by TechnoGothic »

Chemical Enhancement Super-Soldiers (Juicers) (HU2, PU2)
Had Lower Bonuses to SDC/HP, but can live for 1d6+6 Years.

Seems they can be used for Pre-Rifts Juicers very well.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by Jeffrey W. »

Judas wrote:Mindworks sourcebook has some interesting information on Crazies...Cyberworks was about to go bust until a small nuclear exchanged happened...In the background it did say that even though the MOM had driven the volunteers insane, a good (from memory) 30-40% could still be intergrated back into society...


I like your imagination, but your memory needs some refresh concerning Mind Over Matter technology. See page 8 of Rifts Sourcebook Three "Mindwerks" for reference. Only 65% were even originally estimated to be able to lead reasonably normal lives with the implants. That proved disastrous, and even Psytronics realistically estimated that only 15% would not need to be institutionalized.

It was one of those "reasonably normal lives" which caused 34 million credits worth of property damage, injured 220 people, and killed 17 people (by my estimate in the year 2084 A.D. perhaps). The news media may have used the adjective "Crazy" which sort of stuck, and remained for two more centuries into the time of the Rifts.

Because we know that in 2077 A.D., (year 6 of M.O.M. technology), the government approval for military and corporate applications which allows the patented process to enter the market. Mindwerks and Psytronics were flooded with lawsuits by the unhappy customers from 2079-2083 A.D.

By 2088 A.D. (year 17 of M.O.M.), Psytronics has gone bankrupt. Mindwerks goes bankrupt in 2098 A.D. (year 27 of M.O.M.), and teeters on the brink of ruin. In late December, Mindwerks would have opened it's new entirely underground complex in Poland, (sponsored by two Polish industrialists and the Polish government), but the Great Cataclysm prevented that.

That means, by canon, all Chaos Earth "Crazies" in North America would probably have been living with their implants for some nine to twenty-one years already. Such characters would be a real mental train-wreck before the Great Cataclysm even hits, and probably not suitable for player characters. For an N.P.C., "Crazy" would be an understatement.

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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by TechnoGothic »

@ Duck-foot = Powers Unlimited Super-Soldier "Chemical Enhanced".

I would use the PU2 Chemical Enhanced Super-Soldier for Chaos Earth Era "juicers". Lower Bonuses in SDC, etc..but Longer Lifespan.
I see RIFTS Juicers as People who rediscovered the Chemical Enhancement Super-Soldiers. However they chose Higher Bonuses over longer lifespan.

Which is Better ?? Juicers due to Bonuses only. PU2 ChemEnhanced the Lifespan is more of a reward.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by Ectoplasmic Bidet »

Personally, I'd write up pre-Rifts military Juicers as pretty hardcore. Enhanced stat bonuses to reflect greater overall scientific/medical ability (such as drugs tailored specifically to the recipient's biology), less bonus stat variation between Juicers, and a greatly enhanced lifespan. That they would all be trained to absolute peak physical condition with steep program entry requirements should go without saying. This was a USA with hundreds of millions of people and practically limitless resources. They could afford to be selective.

Any number of contributing factors could be part of this greater lifespan. (1) Specifically tailored drugs, (2)genetic treatments designed to make the Juicer more resistant to the detrimental side-effects of chemical enhancement, (3)state of the art internal robotic/nanite repair systems likely far in advance to most Post-Rifts organizations, and (4)the enhanced baseline longevity enjoyed by humans during the Pre-Rifts era.

It's not even unlikely that Juicers of the time may have had a sort of standby mode that could be entered. During down time/non-combat periods, the Bio-Comp could administer much lower levels of drugs, just enough to prevent withdrawal, or variant chemicals with less adverse side-effects, in a manner similar to treatment of opiate addiction using methadone. Stats bonuses would be lowered accordingly in this mode, but long-term damage would be slowed as well. Even if a warm up period of several days may have been needed to work back up to full strength, that wouldn't exactly be undesirable for someone not currently in combat.

Not too far fetched or OP when you think about other pre-Rifts military technology that survived the Cataclysm. The Chromium Guardsman/Glitter Boy was supposedly the first widely accepted, mass produced power armor created by the US and look how well that turned out.

As a sidenote:
I can't recall the page number off the top of my head, but in the Lone Star book, it specifically mentions that Desmond Bradford(if I'm remembering the name correctly), had rediscovered the genetic treatment responsible for extended human lifespans pre-Rifts. Details aren't given, but it's not a huge leap to assume that this was a single treatment that was permanent.

If you go with the theory that a longer human lifespan in turn increases the lifespan of a Juicer, the CS could potentially field Juicers capable of outliving their non-CS compatriots by many years. That is, if the Proseks choose to make the longevity enhancing treatment available to anyone but themselves and their closest stooges.
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