Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by ZINO »

so any has some stats that might fit CE RPG?
let your YES be YES and your NO be NO but plz no maybe
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by LostOne »

ZINO wrote:so any has some stats that might fit CE RPG?

The JAEP (Euro-Juicer, in the Triax book). It says that juicer tech was developed in Pre-Rifts times in Germany. The JAEP I believe has the longest lifespan of all the juicer types, I would think that would definitely be a concern in a time when people lived a lot longer due to advanced medical technology.
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Carl Gleba wrote:
Aramanthus wrote:I'm looking forward to seeing what will happen with that new material from Jason! It should be very good material indeed!


Me too! Jason does some awesome stuff. :ok:

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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

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The Internet is always right, Nadrakas.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

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Jason Richards wrote:The Internet is always right, Nadrakas.

OMG...then that means that there really are "Moon Nazi's!!!"...http://greyfalcon.us/restored/German%20Moon%20Base%20Alpha.htm :shock:


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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by ZINO »

Golden Age tech was top of the line what we are seen in rifts earths 300 year cannot be compared (....yet) look at rifts japan , N.G.R,new navy as good examples IMHO
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

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MegaverseTraveller wrote:I was poking through the Powers Unlimited books the other day looking for inspiration when I located the HU conversion of full juicers and crazies in PU2 (I think). They have slightly higher bonuses (if I remember correctly) and slightly lower penalties, the juices live longer and crazies don't gain their insanities quite as fast. I'm gonna use standard juices and crazies for secondary powers and the ones from HU for high tech powers and keep the US military forces that I have currently using JAPE systems using them.


Most of the stuff in various Powers Unlimited books are snatched from other Palladium books, power categories, OCCs, etc. and slightly adapted. It's probably a fair representation of what an SDC Juicer would be like.

Juicers are one of those things that kinda sucks from a Chaos Earth author perspective because you're more or less committed to reprint the Juicer OCC, at least in terms of its powers and abilities. There's a nod to a non-chemical type of Juicer in First Responders that lays some groundwork for this type of character, but it's not an OCC or anything like that.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by tmikesecrist3 »

I think in the golden Age juicers would live longer. for one thing they would have to go throw a screening proses before getting juiced so they would not only be peek health, The would be some of the best examples of health in human beings
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

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Prodigal Son wrote:Interesting thoughts all.

I like to imagine that Juicers from the Golden Age may not have to cope with some of the restrictions that a 109PA Juicer might struggle with. I think that thought has been posited before on this thread, so I won't go into it too heavy, but I would like to agree with it.

Even so, regardless of the higher grade pharma that would drive the Golden Age Juicer, he would still have to cope with negatives.

What's that old line from Blade Runner, "The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long."


I don't think there's anything to support the idea that Juicer tech is any less damaging during the Golden Age, the entire point of them banning it in the first place was the penalties and when it was un-mothballed nothing to suggest they aren't using the same chemicals and support systems that weren't involved pre-Cataclysm other than for the variants specifically developed after the Catacylsm.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by Akashic Soldier »

If it was me and I know its totally not... but if it was. I would leave them with the same stats, though in character creation I'd inform players that they are prone to have combat stat A,B,C and D because they are selected to undergo these processes.

However
I'd have a specialist Juicer rehabs that make it much safer so its pitched to candidates as a "safe super soldier process" and I might give later "model" Crazy's an inbuilt military OFF switch encase they get out of too control. Wedlock style.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

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Nightmask wrote:
Prodigal Son wrote:Interesting thoughts all.

I like to imagine that Juicers from the Golden Age may not have to cope with some of the restrictions that a 109PA Juicer might struggle with. I think that thought has been posited before on this thread, so I won't go into it too heavy, but I would like to agree with it.

Even so, regardless of the higher grade pharma that would drive the Golden Age Juicer, he would still have to cope with negatives.

What's that old line from Blade Runner, "The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long."


I don't think there's anything to support the idea that Juicer tech is any less damaging during the Golden Age, the entire point of them banning it in the first place was the penalties and when it was un-mothballed nothing to suggest they aren't using the same chemicals and support systems that weren't involved pre-Cataclysm other than for the variants specifically developed after the Catacylsm.


Big difference would be that in the Golden Age you could train up your soldiers, Juice them, then keep them in continual active duty for two years and then detox them as a matter of course. Detox rates would have to be better, I'd think. This is just me talking without books in front of me, but it's how I imagine it going.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

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Jason Richards wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Prodigal Son wrote:Interesting thoughts all.

I like to imagine that Juicers from the Golden Age may not have to cope with some of the restrictions that a 109PA Juicer might struggle with. I think that thought has been posited before on this thread, so I won't go into it too heavy, but I would like to agree with it.

Even so, regardless of the higher grade pharma that would drive the Golden Age Juicer, he would still have to cope with negatives.

What's that old line from Blade Runner, "The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long."


I don't think there's anything to support the idea that Juicer tech is any less damaging during the Golden Age, the entire point of them banning it in the first place was the penalties and when it was un-mothballed nothing to suggest they aren't using the same chemicals and support systems that weren't involved pre-Cataclysm other than for the variants specifically developed after the Catacylsm.


Big difference would be that in the Golden Age you could train up your soldiers, Juice them, then keep them in continual active duty for two years and then detox them as a matter of course. Detox rates would have to be better, I'd think. This is just me talking without books in front of me, but it's how I imagine it going.


That's how I see it as well. The technology isn't any less lethal in the Golden Age (and subsequently abandoned because of moderns sensibilities), but the medical support for the Juicers would've been ideal.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

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Jason Richards wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Prodigal Son wrote:Interesting thoughts all.

I like to imagine that Juicers from the Golden Age may not have to cope with some of the restrictions that a 109PA Juicer might struggle with. I think that thought has been posited before on this thread, so I won't go into it too heavy, but I would like to agree with it.

Even so, regardless of the higher grade pharma that would drive the Golden Age Juicer, he would still have to cope with negatives.

What's that old line from Blade Runner, "The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long."


I don't think there's anything to support the idea that Juicer tech is any less damaging during the Golden Age, the entire point of them banning it in the first place was the penalties and when it was un-mothballed nothing to suggest they aren't using the same chemicals and support systems that weren't involved pre-Cataclysm other than for the variants specifically developed after the Catacylsm.


Big difference would be that in the Golden Age you could train up your soldiers, Juice them, then keep them in continual active duty for two years and then detox them as a matter of course. Detox rates would have to be better, I'd think. This is just me talking without books in front of me, but it's how I imagine it going.


True, you could, but Palladium (and some players) seem to think the process is addictive and people never take detox even though it's offered. Golden Age humanity rejected the technology when the downsides were discovered so even if they were able to enforce detox with the damage that's left from 2 years of being a Juicer (mental and physical) only rogue organizations would possibly use it. Even the CS rejected it for a long time because of the harm to loyal coalition soldiers and only started using it in a limited fashion because it was becoming painfully obvious using only borgs as augmented troops wasn't enough with the threats around and after seeing what happened during the Juicer Uprising.

I would think being a Juicer during the Chaos age would be unlikely anyway because the chemicals you'd need wouldn't be around to refill your harness. It was mothballed before the Chaos and someone had to relocate the stuff and release it and that was centuries later was the impression I got. A Juicer in a Chaos Earth game would have to be pretty unique and have some way of making his own chemicals to keep him juiced and alive.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

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Jeffrey W. wrote:
Judas wrote:Mindworks sourcebook has some interesting information on Crazies...Cyberworks was about to go bust until a small nuclear exchanged happened...In the background it did say that even though the MOM had driven the volunteers insane, a good (from memory) 30-40% could still be intergrated back into society...


I like your imagination, but your memory needs some refresh concerning Mind Over Matter technology. See page 8 of Rifts Sourcebook Three "Mindwerks" for reference. Only 65% were even originally estimated to be able to lead reasonably normal lives with the implants. That proved disastrous, and even Psytronics realistically estimated that only 15% would not need to be institutionalized.

It was one of those "reasonably normal lives" which caused 34 million credits worth of property damage, injured 220 people, and killed 17 people (by my estimate in the year 2084 A.D. perhaps). The news media may have used the adjective "Crazy" which sort of stuck, and remained for two more centuries into the time of the Rifts.

Because we know that in 2077 A.D., (year 6 of M.O.M. technology), the government approval for military and corporate applications which allows the patented process to enter the market. Mindwerks and Psytronics were flooded with lawsuits by the unhappy customers from 2079-2083 A.D.

By 2088 A.D. (year 17 of M.O.M.), Psytronics has gone bankrupt. Mindwerks goes bankrupt in 2098 A.D. (year 27 of M.O.M.), and teeters on the brink of ruin. In late December, Mindwerks would have opened it's new entirely underground complex in Poland, (sponsored by two Polish industrialists and the Polish government), but the Great Cataclysm prevented that.

That means, by canon, all Chaos Earth "Crazies" in North America would probably have been living with their implants for some nine to twenty-one years already. Such characters would be a real mental train-wreck before the Great Cataclysm even hits, and probably not suitable for player characters. For an N.P.C., "Crazy" would be an understatement.

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What Jeffrey said. I suspect the Rifts Crazy saw a resurgence out of necessity to survive as a super powered human in a world of demons and monsters who wanted to eat people and borgs are just too damned expensive. It would be a cheaper way to gain powers to compete with the supernatural bad guys and not have your life span reduced to 5 years. Crazies in Chaos Earth would be on a quick decline as there were no factories to make them save for the Chinese factory which did not deal with the rest of the world.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

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Jeffrey W. wrote:
Judas wrote:Mindworks sourcebook has some interesting information on Crazies...Cyberworks was about to go bust until a small nuclear exchanged happened...In the background it did say that even though the MOM had driven the volunteers insane, a good (from memory) 30-40% could still be intergrated back into society...


I like your imagination, but your memory needs some refresh concerning Mind Over Matter technology. See page 8 of Rifts Sourcebook Three "Mindwerks" for reference. Only 65% were even originally estimated to be able to lead reasonably normal lives with the implants. That proved disastrous, and even Psytronics realistically estimated that only 15% would not need to be institutionalized.

It was one of those "reasonably normal lives" which caused 34 million credits worth of property damage, injured 220 people, and killed 17 people (by my estimate in the year 2084 A.D. perhaps). The news media may have used the adjective "Crazy" which sort of stuck, and remained for two more centuries into the time of the Rifts.

Because we know that in 2077 A.D., (year 6 of M.O.M. technology), the government approval for military and corporate applications which allows the patented process to enter the market. Mindwerks and Psytronics were flooded with lawsuits by the unhappy customers from 2079-2083 A.D.

By 2088 A.D. (year 17 of M.O.M.), Psytronics has gone bankrupt. Mindwerks goes bankrupt in 2098 A.D. (year 27 of M.O.M.), and teeters on the brink of ruin. In late December, Mindwerks would have opened it's new entirely underground complex in Poland, (sponsored by two Polish industrialists and the Polish government), but the Great Cataclysm prevented that.

That means, by canon, all Chaos Earth "Crazies" in North America would probably have been living with their implants for some nine to twenty-one years already. Such characters would be a real mental train-wreck before the Great Cataclysm even hits, and probably not suitable for player characters. For an N.P.C., "Crazy" would be an understatement.

Jeffrey W.
(rogue scholar)


In the year 2098-ish ... 34 Million Dollars in damages is like Nowadays doing 34,000 Dollars of damages. You have to figure in the Hyper-inflation over the years and the cost of living of the era.

So the Crazy doing 34,000 in damages is not much. He might have taken out 1 Automobile and a Fireplug, but the many people he killed and injuried. What we didn't hear was these people just got Whiplash from the Traffic jam he caused. The 17 dead, well its the big city, people die. However they wanted to do the Normal Media coverage and make a big stink out of a minor thing, and place blame on the M.O.M. implantie for the deaths, though we know they likely died of bordom was shock from having the MMO interupted by the traffic jam.

:D

MegaverseTraveller wrote:I was poking through the Powers Unlimited books the other day looking for inspiration when I located the HU conversion of full juicers and crazies in PU2 (I think). They have slightly higher bonuses (if I remember correctly) and slightly lower penalties, the juices live longer and crazies don't gain their insanities quite as fast. I'm gonna use standard juices and crazies for secondary powers and the ones from HU for high tech powers and keep the US military forces that I have currently using JAPE systems using them.


HU2-PU2's Chemical Augmentation Super-soldier :
LOWER SDC/HP Bonuses.
LOWER Physical Bonuses.
LONGER Lifespan.

HU2-PU2's Brain Implant Super-Soldier :
Basic "Crazy" in everyway except Less insanities.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by MikelAmroni »

I'm going to throw this little tidbit out there:

The technology that makes a Juicer or a Crazy is fundamentally the same. The surgical and screening processes are fundamentally the same (though post-rifts docs are more likely to ignore certain results for incompatibility if enough money is on the line). What is different is the level of pre-op and post-op psychological care and the level of counseling they would go through. As for the life-span issue of the Juicer, I'd say that they would not allow them to be juiced to the max at all times. Basically during downtime they'd have basically JAPE level enhancement (one that wouldn't put them in shock or withdrawal, but wouldn't have the same level of destructive effect that the full juice would have), and then get the "good stuff" put in them only when they are getting ready for an extended operation. In this way you could probably multiply by a factor of 10 the lifespan of the recipient. It was never likely MEANT to be a 24/7 enhancement. In fact I can't see that being the original goal at all. Only the coming of the demons (and the resulting "we are always at war!" mentality) would have the juicer fully juiced at all times.

As for the Crazy, Jason Bourne's example (from the novels) is particularly fitting. The process they use to control their agents is not that far off from how you'd control a MOM enhanced agent. If you know they are going to end up with these insanities, then why not focus those insanities into useful control tools. Hard core and unethical? Sure, but the alternative is a strong, quick, madman with no means of being stopped except by actually killing him (the rifts Crazy)

Both of these control methods would be useful for a modern military and government with the proper oversight. Triax could do something similar, but would rather put its efforts into bionics (which are much easier to replace and help folks deal with their loss once they are replaced) and robotics. The psychological damage is much more manageable. The Republic of Japan holds a similar outlook, and I suspect so did NEMA. Major mega-corps using a few juicer or crazy mercs/agents would have these levels of control in place to keep their investments in good condition. I suspect only in pre-rifts fiction would you find anyone with juice all the time, or a crazy who wasn't under a strict regimen of counseling and medicine to counteract the effects of the MOM implants.

Of course all of this would be far too troublesome for most post-rifts militaries who might use crazy or juicer augmentation. Heck even during the Demon Plagues this sort of downtime would be a luxury no one could provide. So even if you were playing a 5 year Juicer Vet (the same as a 1 year juicer under the rifts rules - or whatever ratio you decide to use), you'd only live out the next 4 years or so before you'd experience last call - something that you might have had a 20 year career before the coming of the rifts. Or if you're a crazy, suddenly you start gaining insanities at a higher rate because that strict regimen of control, meditation, and drugs you've been on gets interrupted - oh yeah, and the normal mental stresses of Chaos Earth.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by LostOne »

MikelAmroni wrote:The technology that makes a Juicer or a Crazy is fundamentally the same.

I heartily disagree. One is pretty much all neural enhancement the other is chemical/hormonal. Completely different effects on the body although the end result produces similar results (enhanced attributes).
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by MikelAmroni »

LostOne wrote:
MikelAmroni wrote:The technology that makes a Juicer or a Crazy is fundamentally the same.

I heartily disagree. One is pretty much all neural enhancement the other is chemical/hormonal. Completely different effects on the body although the end result produces similar results (enhanced attributes).


You misunderstand - I mean in relation to Pre-rifts Golden Age and Post Rifts PA100+ since the latter is salvaged from the former. I assumed that would be understood, since that IS the topic of conversation. Sorry.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by LostOne »

MikelAmroni wrote:You misunderstand - I mean in relation to Pre-rifts Golden Age and Post Rifts PA100+ since the latter is salvaged from the former. I assumed that would be understood, since that IS the topic of conversation. Sorry.

I did misunderstand, my apologies.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by MikelAmroni »

No worries Lost One - misunderstandings happen. :)
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C.E. Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by Akashic Soldier »

I would like propose the following:

1. Anti-Juice Sentiment
Before there were Juicers there was Rush and other designer drugs (see Juicer Uprising) and although they were illegal in reputable sporting events, the boost they gave their athletes allowed them to participate in extreme sports and it was not too long before organizations like the WWE were full of Juice-heads doing things that verged on the superhuman. It was a new craze. Athletes hated it but the youth loved it and it became quickly clear it wasn't going anywhere fast. Then one evening one of the wrestlers (entertainers) overdosed and flew into a blind rage and it took (some important city) four or so hours to put him down; during which time there was massive collateral damage. This began a change in public view and anti-juice sentiment rose to an all time high in much the same way that modern Americans view terrorism. However, it also drew the attention of the military that realized that if one 6'6 man speeding on rush and three or more designer drugs could shrug off bullets and bring down 1/3rd of the NYPD (or whatever police force it was) single handedly before their heart finally gave out than there was definitely weapons potential and they began research and development on the first Juicers (keeping it a STRICT secret from the public).

These Proto-Juicers have primitive harnesses that (like Bane from Batman) require a "charge" of "Juice" which they carry in viles strapped to their biceps or thighs. This gives Proto-Juicers a few advantages over modern juicers. First, they have a variety of chemical cocktails that they can pump into their body as there is a need (speed juice, strength juice, or murder-mix) but unlike the modern juicer these boosts only last for a limited amount of time and if their harness is damaged that time is significantly reduced (and might even stop). The other benifit of this is it makes detox process infinitely easier on the patient (though the ravages the juice takes on the body is much more severe than modern juicers and using more than one type of juice shortens that even more significantly -- though these are all things they're still learning and experimenting with).

Finally, the scientists developing this technology are NOT involved with NEMA but are a second agency, invisible, and gaining significant power. They are obviously allies but little (next to nothing) is known about them. The operation is run by a bunch of scientists (either in a bunker or an acquired prison) and they will eventually become the men and women who master the technology we recognize on Rifts Earth today. Their ethics are questionable because they kidnap people, augment them after giving them chemical brainwashing (which is inadvertently why modern juicers are resistant) and then leave these poor men with a limited supply of juice somewhere and observe them. Many of these people are coming to Nema but MOST of them are rogue loose cannons that quickly run out of juice and burn out. Those that are truly exceptional are approached by the organization in secret like drug dealers and given more juice in exchange for their services -- those that prove themselves to be valuable and loyal are eventually taken in as full time members. NEMA wishes it had more resources to investigate this nuisance but its manpower is tied up in other places saving lives.

2. Insanity is the natural response to an insane world.
What most people don't know is that there have nearly always been psychics. Not like now during the cataclysm but they've always existed and government agencies have always (since about the 1970's starting with Russia) had Psi-Ops units (true fact -- look it up). This is where Crazie's come from.

The original idea was simple...

After finding the most powerful psychic on Earth and containing the lunatic for his own safety and others, scientists took scans of his brainwaves and tried to figure out what made him special and after running this against thousands of other such scans for other people they worked out what a psychic mind looks like and what a normal mind looks like. Then, using bionics and rapid fire impulse relays via rods implanted directly into the head (which were designed as rods because they originally interfaced into a helmet in a chair) they could force a change in the brainwaves so that the mind functioned via a psychic highway. These were sadistic, inhuman, and monstrous experiments... but they worked... at least to a degree. The downfall was that they drove the patient insane. The scientists working on the M.O.M. technology entirely blamed this on the fact that the pattern they were using was from an unsound mind though no other pattern yet discovered has been able to grant non-psychics artificial psychic ability.

They have however, been able to augment pre-existing psychics with an experimental psibernetics that augment their latent abilities to near super-human levels.

Then the Rifts happened... but the scientists were ready... for weeks before the disaster the lunatic crazie test subjects had been gibbering about the end of the world... their mad delusions augmented by prophecies that shared a disturbing similarity to what occurred on that dreadful day and for the first few months they survived. The scientists hid in their asylums and undersea laboratories and closed themselves off from the world while they worked on perfecting their augmentation process like the Nazi's who came before them... but the coming of the Rifts made (the original psychic) smarter, stronger, and somehow more sane and dangerous and he got out. Only 12 of the scientists escaped alive with many trapped within the submarine facilities forced to endure the very experimental augmentation that they had forced on others. Then they surfaced both literally and metaphorically. A proverbial army of chaotic superhuman combatants under the command of a lunatic with a vision for a new world.

These first Crazies are wild men, barbarians and unpredictable antagonists... but sometimes they are also unlikely heroes. Nema might welcome them to the fold except that they abduct people and create more of their own. They have already lost three cities to this plague and they know that if someone (or something) does not stop the lunatic than no one is safe.

All that said, I would have four types of Crazies (one for each Psychic category and then 'Super Crazies'; identical to modern Crazies). I would introduce them very much as wild cards in the setting, only one degree better than the monsters NEMA has to fight, they would be masters of unveiling secret/salvage/stolen weapons and would frequently betray humanity to the monsters only to betray (and defeat) said monsters later - forever leaving their true loyalties unclear.

But they are more than that...

"We've got the sciencez on our sidez boyz! Whatchya got to be afraid of?"

They are also a horrifying temptation. Scared? Join the Crazies and get the power to fight back. Want revenge against the monsters that killed your family? Join the Crazies and get the power to avenge them.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by TagsPB »

One thing to throw out here:

The U.S. Military would most likely do more frequent check ups on a Juicer, ensuring that their system is being over run by the drugs, having harnesses tweaked and upgraded regularly and such while on ACTIVE duty.......this would mean not letting them near the public for extended periods as too fast a reaction could kill say a family member.

So 2 years of ACTIVE duty leads to detox (over say 3 to 4 months) and replacing the harness with something less clunky (and involving JAPE most likely) which even then they may be weened off of unless said solider plans to re-up his time as a Juicer, at which point they go thru the preset up again (hell some soldiers might try and go 3 or 4 times in a row if allowed - that's 6 to 8 years) but at a certain point the higher ups will force detox. No one wants a desk Juicer after all.

But all this would be done while receiving regular psyche evaluations and checks up on both the individual AND their equipment (look at James Bond and the guy in the latest Bourne movie <heck we see several agents taken out by an 'update' to their drugs>)


What this would lead to is a longer lived, better adpted, trained Juicer. Almost always Special Forces.


Now we hit CE. Most of that structure is no longer there.......
Regular medical check ups???? Not with wounded and sick coming in by the truck load.
Psyche evluation???? Everyone's seeing demons and stuff man.........
Routine maintenance on the harnesses???? "It's working?? Good we'er done here back to the front."
Detox after a few years....."We NEED you out saving us 24/7. Get with the program solider the world is going to hell."

Oh and would the higher ups look at making standard soldiers into Juicers???? To better fight what's out the and protect the base/civilians??? MOST LIKELY!!!! If they have the harnesses and people are willing they'd do it as an equalizer in a heartbeat

And before you cry lower life span.........In Chaos Earth your life span in your next breath...good now take another and another.......
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by LostOne »

Thanks for spoiling part of the new Bourne movie. Not everyone rushes out to theaters for everything.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by green.nova343 »

Brimstone wrote:To add my two Cents.. I would say that Juicers would live at least twice to three times as long (Mutants in Orbit), but would be less powerful. The reason I say that is that no matter how tense the world was (as in: on the Brink of the next Global War), it was not/or at least just starting of an armed conflicts. Both the Juicers and Crazies would be built to enhance their Army's forces.

Now Fast forward to Rifts Earth.. Things are much different.. Yes the Technologically has survived for the last 300 years or so, but the focus now is not so much building a better then the other guy, it's about survival.. I look at the Juicers being pushed to 11 on a scale of 1-10. They trade a longer life span to compete with things that can destroy a Tank with a back-hand and Evil Look.

As for Crazy.. I see it as their "issues" come from an overload of their neural pathways running also at 150%+ with the rewiring.. Before the "Coming of Rifts" the rewiring was need to boots the meniscus latent I.S.P. most candidates had to something usable; When the Sh** Hit the fan.. EVERYTHING got a supernaturally Boost!.. and this is why their minds are so unbalanced. Now as for the Mindworks in Poland.. Let's face it.. "The Angel of Death" is a Crazy Bit**, and she just wants to see how far she can push the Human Brain before it breaks (at least that has been my take on it). And this is coming from someone who as played a Crazy and has a very fun game GMing a friend who was a Null-Cyborg with a pathological fear of Squirrel (..this came about through Roll playing and had nothing to do with his normal psychoses).

That's my Two-Cents.. Not everything needs to be a Power-Creep.


Agreed. If anything, it would probably be better to work off of the HU2 rules for the Experiment: Super-Soldier option as a way to have "lower" bonuses.

Personally, though, I don't think that the "Golden Age" Juicer conversion program was any more powerful or less damaging to the recipients. For one thing, I don't think that antigerone therapies have an effect on a Juicer. The primary examples in science fiction (i.e. David Weber's Honorverse) don't show the treatments as providing any extra "boost" to the person's immune systems, or making their organs & tissue any more resistant to trauma & disease; they only affect the part of the genetic code that (supposedly) affects your longevity (i.e. the length of time before DNA starts having issues replicating, skin cells start losing elasticity, etc.). That would help stave off the RPG effects of aging, as seen in PFRPG; but there's no sign that it prevents things like drug addition, liver damage due to alcohol consumption, or wounds received in battle. Ergo... antigerone therapies should have no effect on the drugs & medications used in the Juicer conversion process. Now, maybe once you've detoxed you can take the therapies & live a longer life afterwards, but still there's no attribute boost involved.

If you want attribute boosts from gene treatments, or you want something that might prolong your lifespan as a Juicer, you have to look for something more along the lines of a "Doctor Bradford Special", or a "gift" from the Gene-Splicers. Better yet, possibly get some Phase World/Three Galaxies-level (or even Rifts Japan-level) clone replacements for your body parts...as long as they're from pre-Juicing samples. And even then, you're talking about some hideously high costs, an expense level that should make the Juicer conversion look like chump change.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by Nightmask »

green.nova343 wrote:
Brimstone wrote:To add my two Cents.. I would say that Juicers would live at least twice to three times as long (Mutants in Orbit), but would be less powerful. The reason I say that is that no matter how tense the world was (as in: on the Brink of the next Global War), it was not/or at least just starting of an armed conflicts. Both the Juicers and Crazies would be built to enhance their Army's forces.

Now Fast forward to Rifts Earth.. Things are much different.. Yes the Technologically has survived for the last 300 years or so, but the focus now is not so much building a better then the other guy, it's about survival.. I look at the Juicers being pushed to 11 on a scale of 1-10. They trade a longer life span to compete with things that can destroy a Tank with a back-hand and Evil Look.

As for Crazy.. I see it as their "issues" come from an overload of their neural pathways running also at 150%+ with the rewiring.. Before the "Coming of Rifts" the rewiring was need to boots the meniscus latent I.S.P. most candidates had to something usable; When the Sh** Hit the fan.. EVERYTHING got a supernaturally Boost!.. and this is why their minds are so unbalanced. Now as for the Mindworks in Poland.. Let's face it.. "The Angel of Death" is a Crazy Bit**, and she just wants to see how far she can push the Human Brain before it breaks (at least that has been my take on it). And this is coming from someone who as played a Crazy and has a very fun game GMing a friend who was a Null-Cyborg with a pathological fear of Squirrel (..this came about through Roll playing and had nothing to do with his normal psychoses).

That's my Two-Cents.. Not everything needs to be a Power-Creep.


Agreed. If anything, it would probably be better to work off of the HU2 rules for the Experiment: Super-Soldier option as a way to have "lower" bonuses.

Personally, though, I don't think that the "Golden Age" Juicer conversion program was any more powerful or less damaging to the recipients. For one thing, I don't think that antigerone therapies have an effect on a Juicer. The primary examples in science fiction (i.e. David Weber's Honorverse) don't show the treatments as providing any extra "boost" to the person's immune systems, or making their organs & tissue any more resistant to trauma & disease; they only affect the part of the genetic code that (supposedly) affects your longevity (i.e. the length of time before DNA starts having issues replicating, skin cells start losing elasticity, etc.). That would help stave off the RPG effects of aging, as seen in PFRPG; but there's no sign that it prevents things like drug addition, liver damage due to alcohol consumption, or wounds received in battle. Ergo... antigerone therapies should have no effect on the drugs & medications used in the Juicer conversion process. Now, maybe once you've detoxed you can take the therapies & live a longer life afterwards, but still there's no attribute boost involved.

If you want attribute boosts from gene treatments, or you want something that might prolong your lifespan as a Juicer, you have to look for something more along the lines of a "Doctor Bradford Special", or a "gift" from the Gene-Splicers. Better yet, possibly get some Phase World/Three Galaxies-level (or even Rifts Japan-level) clone replacements for your body parts...as long as they're from pre-Juicing samples. And even then, you're talking about some hideously high costs, an expense level that should make the Juicer conversion look like chump change.


The Juicer and Crazy technology in use on Earth is the same as what was used during the Golden Age, outside of the variants developed in current times like the Dragon or Mega Juicer or TW-Ultra Crazies. The version of Juicer in use in Mutants In Orbit are explicitly noted to be more advanced than on Rifts Earth and probably also benefit from the environment in some fashion for why they gain a longer live-span than seen on Earth.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by say652 »

i imagine the "timer" was purposely put in to stop a juicer ruled planet. i mean a high level juicer is capable of taking down just about any ground unit with a vibro sword and a few good rolls. the crazies.......again the "timer" in this case insanities were probably purposely added in to keep them under control. i also agree about the modified men combat specialty.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by Nightmask »

say652 wrote:i imagine the "timer" was purposely put in to stop a juicer ruled planet. i mean a high level juicer is capable of taking down just about any ground unit with a vibro sword and a few good rolls. the crazies.......again the "timer" in this case insanities were probably purposely added in to keep them under control. i also agree about the modified men combat specialty.


Well you can consider that for your game as the reason, but the technologies themselves are quite clear about the processes just not being perfected enough to prevent the dangerous side-effects they aren't inserted as a way of leashing the Juicer or Crazy (the backstory on Crazy technology takes time to note that the insanities didn't start manifesting until they had a lot of converted people running around, who'd finally reached kill-happy stage for some and caused massive death for why that tech got banned).

Most modern development of the technologies doesn't even try to clean up the side-effects, it's all about Tim Tayloring the technology instead of perfecting it so that it's safe and doesn't cause early death (juicer) or insanity (crazy).
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
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Re: Chaos Earth era Juicers and Crazies

Unread post by LostOne »

say652 wrote:i imagine the "timer" was purposely put in to stop a juicer ruled planet. i mean a high level juicer is capable of taking down just about any ground unit with a vibro sword and a few good rolls. the crazies.......again the "timer" in this case insanities were probably purposely added in to keep them under control. i also agree about the modified men combat specialty.

As said previously, feel free to treat it how you want in your games.

But here is my thinking on it: Even over the counter medication has side effects. You're talking about medical augmentation for juicers to increase a human far past what the body was evolved to operate at. There will be side effects and draw backs. Look at anabolic steroids, the effect they produce and the side effects. Juicers are far beyond that.

As for crazies, they were not a perfected technology in the golden era. You're talking about implanting technology in the human brain to again make it operate in ways it was not evolved to run. In the real world when brain surgery is performed they have to map each patients brain because everyone's brain is slightly different on where the borders of various sections are, where the blood vessels run, etc. So making a crazy isn't going to be a cookie cutter operation, each one may have to be approached slightly differently with custom hardware for that specific crazy's brain. Things are bound to go wrong often.
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