R:CE Martial Arts?

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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by jedi078 »

I do use some of the martial arts from N&SS, but remove the Chi and martial arts power stuff.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by keir451 »

I apply all the martial arts from N&SS, I even allow for the Chi abilities, as i feel they reflect what's available today (as far as martial Arts goes).
The only "mythical one" that I've allowed (still working on some of it's techniques) is the Panzer Kunst art from the Battle Angel Alita manga series. Anti-cyborg/armor arts rule!!!
In Rifts era I allow for a relative few to have survived, namely Shaolin Kung-fu, Okinawan Style Karate, Kendo, and the ones from Rifts Japan. I figure that Shaolin style might have survived in the temples in China (perhaps w/a greater emphasis on anti-demon arts) and the Okinawan Karate could have survived, unchanged, in the tech cities of Japan.
Speaking of Martial Arts anyone else seen the new Karate Kid movie yet? :D
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Dustin Fireblade »

keir451 wrote:The only "mythical one" that I've allowed (still working on some of it's techniques) is the Panzer Kunst art from the Battle Angel Alita manga series. Anti-cyborg/armor arts rule!!!



Sounds like something for the Cyber-Knight.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by keir451 »

Dustin Fireblade wrote:
keir451 wrote:The only "mythical one" that I've allowed (still working on some of it's techniques) is the Panzer Kunst art from the Battle Angel Alita manga series. Anti-cyborg/armor arts rule!!!



Sounds like something for the Cyber-Knight.

Interesting idea. The only problem that I could see is that Panzer Kunst is "killing art", as in it is designed around the principal of making sure your enemy is dead and sometimes the Cyber-Knight code might get in the way (philosophical reasons and all that).
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Dustin Fireblade »

keir451 wrote:
Dustin Fireblade wrote:
keir451 wrote:The only "mythical one" that I've allowed (still working on some of it's techniques) is the Panzer Kunst art from the Battle Angel Alita manga series. Anti-cyborg/armor arts rule!!!



Sounds like something for the Cyber-Knight.

Interesting idea. The only problem that I could see is that Panzer Kunst is "killing art", as in it is designed around the principal of making sure your enemy is dead and sometimes the Cyber-Knight code might get in the way (philosophical reasons and all that).



Ah well I'm not at all familiar with it. Could always be a splinter faction I suppose.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by keir451 »

Dustin Fireblade wrote:
keir451 wrote:
Dustin Fireblade wrote:
keir451 wrote:The only "mythical one" that I've allowed (still working on some of it's techniques) is the Panzer Kunst art from the Battle Angel Alita manga series. Anti-cyborg/armor arts rule!!!



Sounds like something for the Cyber-Knight.

Interesting idea. The only problem that I could see is that Panzer Kunst is "killing art", as in it is designed around the principal of making sure your enemy is dead and sometimes the Cyber-Knight code might get in the way (philosophical reasons and all that).



Ah well I'm not at all familiar with it. Could always be a splinter faction I suppose.

It's a fictional Art out a Manga called Battle Angel Alita and Battle Angel Alita; Last Order, by Yukito Kishiro. But yeah it could be a splinter faction, I'll have to play w/ that one a bit.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Jason Richards »

In my opinion, martial arts should be virtually non-existent in Golden Age North America. Remember, the Golden Age of Humanity wasn't Star Trek-like, where technology made everyone equals and gave people time to pursue physical and mental disciplines for the sake of their own improvement.

Chaos Earth Golden Age North Americans (and in most other high-tech countries) were, basically, lazy. Technology made their lives easier so people never did things for themselves unless it was their job to do so. People generally didn't know how to cook food, use a gun, much less fight with any real competence. Medical technology made diet and exercise more or less unnecessary.

People that needed to know how to fight, like the vast armies of military and private special forces/espionage agents would be quite good at it, however, trained in combat with Mega-Damage weaponry that lessened the need for subtlety and pinpoint accuracy in favor of vaporizing targets with focused energy weapons or slicing people in half with a vibro-blade like a hot knife through butter.

In my games, and really in the world as I write it, your average police officer patrolman or hovercycle gang member probably has HtH: Basic. As a further example, my EMT and Firefighter don't have any HtH skill at all in the basic package, while the Reservist has Basic. SWAT members have HtH: Expert. I'd wager that Assassin would probably be far more common even than Martial Arts, which has little place in the Golden Age.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by keir451 »

Jason Richards wrote:In my opinion, martial arts should be virtually non-existent in Golden Age North America. Remember, the Golden Age of Humanity wasn't Star Trek-like, where technology made everyone equals and gave people time to pursue physical and mental disciplines for the sake of their own improvement.

Chaos Earth Golden Age North Americans (and in most other high-tech countries) were, basically, lazy. Technology made their lives easier so people never did things for themselves unless it was their job to do so. People generally didn't know how to cook food, use a gun, much less fight with any real competence. Medical technology made diet and exercise more or less unnecessary.

People that needed to know how to fight, like the vast armies of military and private special forces/espionage agents would be quite good at it, however, trained in combat with Mega-Damage weaponry that lessened the need for subtlety and pinpoint accuracy in favor of vaporizing targets with focused energy weapons or slicing people in half with a vibro-blade like a hot knife through butter.

In my games, and really in the world as I write it, your average police officer patrolman or hovercycle gang member probably has HtH: Basic. As a further example, my EMT and Firefighter don't have any HtH skill at all in the basic package, while the Reservist has Basic. SWAT members have HtH: Expert. I'd wager that Assassin would probably be far more common even than Martial Arts, which has little place in the Golden Age.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this one Jason. I can see that the advances in tech could make people lazy (heck look at us today) but I would say that might actually give people MORE free time to pursue things like martial arts (at least here in the US) and I don't see the Shaolin monastaries dying off any time in the next 80+ years. Even if they suffered furhter persecution by the Chinese gov't, they could always pack up and move to countries like the US and Canada where they would be welcomed.
Admittedly Chaos Earth is your territory nowadays, but I can't really see the "die off" of martial arts.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Dustin Fireblade »

Jason Richards wrote:Remember, the Golden Age of Humanity wasn't Star Trek-like, where technology made everyone equals and gave people time to pursue physical and mental disciplines for the sake of their own improvement.

Chaos Earth Golden Age North Americans (and in most other high-tech countries) were, basically, lazy. Technology made their lives easier so people never did things for themselves unless it was their job to do so. People generally didn't know how to cook food, use a gun, much less fight with any real competence. Medical technology made diet and exercise more or less unnecessary.



I agree to a point with what you are saying. It certainly wasn't a utopia. What we need is something that really describes the 'Golden Age' to provide a better sense of loss. I mean one day you have everything and the next its Armageddon.

Personally I think with the advanced medical technology and longer life spans people will be more apt to try new and different things. The question is what exactly will people be doing with their free time?

I've also included a growing survivalist movement to play up the 2nd Cold War and the end of the century doomsday scenario's that are bound to crop up. Then there are also a "retro" group/movement that believes technology is making things too easy for people.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Gamer »

Jason Richards wrote:In my opinion, martial arts should be virtually non-existent in Golden Age North America. Remember, the Golden Age of Humanity wasn't Star Trek-like, where technology made everyone equals and gave people time to pursue physical and mental disciplines for the sake of their own improvement.

Chaos Earth Golden Age North Americans (and in most other high-tech countries) were, basically, lazy. Technology made their lives easier so people never did things for themselves unless it was their job to do so. People generally didn't know how to cook food, use a gun, much less fight with any real competence. Medical technology made diet and exercise more or less unnecessary.

People that needed to know how to fight, like the vast armies of military and private special forces/espionage agents would be quite good at it, however, trained in combat with Mega-Damage weaponry that lessened the need for subtlety and pinpoint accuracy in favor of vaporizing targets with focused energy weapons or slicing people in half with a vibro-blade like a hot knife through butter.

In my games, and really in the world as I write it, your average police officer patrolman or hovercycle gang member probably has HtH: Basic. As a further example, my EMT and Firefighter don't have any HtH skill at all in the basic package, while the Reservist has Basic. SWAT members have HtH: Expert. I'd wager that Assassin would probably be far more common even than Martial Arts, which has little place in the Golden Age.


If thats is how your going to write it, then thats another set of books I'll be leaving on the shelves and will be rewriting it myself.
I prefer the golden age to be a little more representative of what the Rifts books written earlier hint at instead of it getting the George Lucas prequel treatment.

I'd like to know why NEMA needs some if not the most advanced power armor on the planet to quell riots composed of basically lazy people.
show me were in north america people where riots are quelled with M1 tanks armed with water hoses and machineguns with rubber bullets and I'll agree there is a need for basically lazy people to be dealt with by the Chromium guardsman.
I'd like to know where the popularity of those MMA fights that where even cities that I live by have their own weekly bouts with trained people and not just local drunks dissapeared to.
If the early juicers and the Death Dance saga was so immensely popular that it spawned such things as world wide interactive parks I don't see how martial arts schools become vitually nonexistant.
If everyone is basically lazy then the golden age was most certainly a utopia.
Everyone being basically lazy contradicts the need for NEMA to use the chromium guardsman in quelling riots because simple light MDC body armor and shields are more than enough to deal with basically lazy people.
There will be alot of lazy people, but not to the point martial arts becomes virtually nonexistant.
If it becomes virtually nonexistant by the golden age then they become completely extinct in the dark ages with all the other supposed lost knowledge and all anyone knows is basic and advanced at best in the rifts PA timeline.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Jason Richards »

Okay, let me back up. I think maybe I wasn't clear on some points, and I KNOW that some of you misunderstood me or made some pretty wild leaps.

For starters, I did not suggest that people did not learn any hand to hand combat skills. I specifically noted that Hand to Hand: Expert and Hand to Hand: Assassin are alive and well in the Golden Age. I suggested that Martial Arts as a hand to hand combat skill was not widely practiced, at all. I certainly did not suggest that NEMA was the only such organization that taught advanced hand to hand. In fact, I never even mentioned NEMA, so please calm down, COL.LYBOCK. Of course various special government agents from across the board would be trained in lethal combat, which is why I specifically noted that Hand to Hand: Assassin would likely be more prominent than Martial Arts.

Taking a step back even further, I think that perhaps some people don't have a proper view of what Hand to Hand: Martial Arts is as a skill. It is an intense, highly lethal fighting form, the most potent that is even remotely available to a normal person. Even in the world of Rifts, where violence and death are ever-present, it is not universally available. This is not a skill that you pick up after school at a "dojo" in the local strip mall. The thing being taught in every neighborhood is a physical skill, maybe even a couple of physical skills and perhaps a Weapon Proficiency, not the fighting form that comes standard for Cyber-Knights and mercenaries in a post-apocalyptic world. You certainly can't download some manual or YouTube video and learn a legitimate Hand to Hand skill, LYBOC; is that really what you're suggesting?

Also, this isn't Japan or China, where martial arts are part of the culture, and even there I think you have to ask yourself how many of those practitioners are engaged in physical fitness and orders of discipline, and how many are lethal killing machines.

Let's talk about NEMA for a moment, Gamer. NEMA was not simply a domestic police force, but one of its principle missions was fighting terrorists overseas, which was the major military threat leading up to and into the Golden Age, hence the great show of military force. Were they deployed at home as well? Yes. Were they equipped to handle disasters of humanity such as riots? Yes. Does the presence of rioters equate to Hand to Hand: Martial Arts being commonly available to the public? Ridiculous. I'll also point out that the basic premise of the Chaos Earth RPG, vis-a-vis Glitter Boys and SAMAS being common in North America and conveniently dispersed amongst the population so as to be a factor during the Cataclysm is a clunky premise that never made sense in the first place, but was included for utility and gaming purposes, but we're stuck with what we have in this regard.

The common man of the Golden Age was, in fact, lazy. Or, at least complacent. He didn't go hiking for fun. He didn't cook to impress women. He didn't squeeze off a few rounds at the range with his buddies. He enjoyed a life of incredible leisure and health that required very little of him. We know that the common man didn't launch into quests of self-improvement, because he was so completely unprepared for the loss of all of his amenities during the Cataclysm. You're talking about an average person that is not capable of boiling water, and to me that cries of someone that is totally helpless. In game terms, playing a character that is truly a "common man" is a Victim game, every bit as much as can be played in any pulp horror RPG. These people are, more or less, doomed without the intervention of someone else.

Dustin is very correct on one point. In this world, you have counter-culturalists. You have hovercycle gangs and nutjob guys that build bunkers because they don't trust the current state of society (or "Bunker Men" as they are called in First Responders). You have outdoor enthusiasts who are viewed by the common man as being "odd." Funny enough, these people are likely to be your player characters. They certainly will have the upper hand. They are also not the norm, and very much in the minority. One of these sorts of people may very well have sought out someone from whom to learn Karate, just as they are likely to have picked up how to fire a rifle or start a fire without a lighter.

Ultimately, it's not a matter of free time or having a longer life span. It's about motivation of a given person to actively pursue a new skill. And, as I said at the start, when you suggest that someone has learned Hand to Hand: Martial Arts, you are placing them into one of the very top rungs of combat ability, not saying that they took an Aikido class at the local YMCA, or that they really loved MMA. Popularity of the Death Dance saga and the Juicer lifestyle is great, and undoubtedly brought a certain segment of the population into a greater interest in martial arts and physical fitness, but you're talking about a very small percentage of the population. They fall in with the "outsiders," not the norm. And again, even if such people did go to the gym and pick up some combat skills, you're likely looking at Hand to Hand: Basic, or physical skills such as Boxing, Wrestling, Kickboxing, and General Athletics, not the full-fledged knowledge of Hand to Hand: Martial Arts.

I'll also point out that as of the Great Cataclysm, nobody had lived even close to 180 years, so all of this extra free time due to long life really hadn't yet occurred, if it ever would.

That any clearer?
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Cybermancer »

As I pointed out already in another thread, if martial arts was going to die out, it would have already. But it hasn't and here's why:

It's practiced as a sport.

It's practiced for fitness.

It's practiced due to personal interest.

It is practiced for practical self defense or 'just in case'.

Martial arts is going to be just common (or uncommon) as it is today. More advanced technology will not mitigate any of the above factors. Technology is already advanced enough to make martial arts obsolete and yet it is still practiced.

As for society in the so called Golden Age...

The age of co-operation and peace was over for about a decade before the coming of the Rifts. It was replaced by a new arms race and cold war. The nations of the world were polarizing and preparing for possible war with one another. In fact, it was war that sparked the Great Cataclysm.

This was not Gene Rodenberrys Star Trek.

I remember the last cold war. I remeber the fear. I remember the releif when it was 'over'. It wasn't a Utopia by any measure.

You wanna know what society was like for these people? Look back into history. You don't even have to look very far, just to the 70's and 80's. When trying to figure out how people will respond and behave when confronted with a specific situation, the place to look is always history. Odds are good you'll find many times where the so called new situation has arisen before. This kind of research will produce a better, more logical world then just trying to postulate what will happen without any actual insight into what has gone before.

And when people criticise your views and give reasoned explanations why, don't assume they're wrong or don't get it. Look at their reasoning and consider why you might be wrong. It won't be the readers fault if what you write goes un-purchased and un-read.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Jason Richards »

Cybermancer, in the first portion of your post, you missed the point. Yes, martial arts is practiced for fitness and sport and basic self defense. However, none of those things constitute Hand to Hand: Martial Arts. They constitute physical skills or, at most, Hand to Hand: Basic.

I'm always open to discussion about the way the setting is developed, and anyone familiar with my work will tell you that. They will also tell you about my attention to detail and passion for research. Ultimately, you should play it however you like and you'll find no bigger supporter in that than me.

However, the setting canon is what it is. The fact of that is that in terms of your common survivors, the theme is that of unpreparedness. Common people have a couple of options: rely on the larger-than-life heroes such as those in NEMA or the very few counter-culturalists, or else rise above it on their own, despite their lack of relevant skills. That vulnerability is a GOOD thing, as it's what really good role-playing is all about and it gives players an option that doesn't include rail guns and invulnerable shining armor.

To answer an earlier question, the reason that I'm writing for Chaos Earth (and it's not a NEMA Mission Book, incidentally), is that I don't view NEMA as the end all be all of the setting. There's a reason that anything non-NEMA was totally ignored in the core RPG, and a reason that I haven't paid much attention to NEMA since then. Common people are effectively setting background as the game was originally constituted, and I am out to correct that error. NEMA is not prominently featured in First Responders, and didn't make an appearance in my Psychic Storm starter kit that was in Rifter 50.

As long as I'm writing for Palladium, you'll see consistent, thoughtful material with an emphasis on giving players and GMs lots of options.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Jason Richards »

Young Freud wrote:I can see your point, Jason, that even the five fighting styles are going to be the most common in the game because they're the most common in the United States of the Golden Age and the average person isn't going to have the time or, more likely, the inclination to even bother with those style, let alone hunt down a more advanced style. The premise in my nascent campaign has more to do with one-percenters in the Golden Age, who would be somewhat worldly, highly-trained, and experienced, than average folks (not that I don't see a problem with that as a game idea). People not just from NEMA, but from the Canadian, American, and Mexican armed forces and private contractors. I thought it would be an interesting topic to bring up.

I will make a point that I've always felt that HtH: Basic would be more of the level of civilian martial arts training, like found in self-defense classes, while HtH: Expert is something more along the lines of military line fighting, I think what they call Combatives, along with police hand-to-hand and close quarters training. HtH: Martial Arts is a much more advanced style, with flourishes, advanced parries, and the like, but still easily learned from martial arts masters, with HtH: Assassin being for those people who want to kill other people, and HtH: Commando being for those who want to survive (and probably including more than just techniques, like going through a Navy SEAL Hell Week-style course and/or SERE training).


You'll enjoy the Brothers in Arms sourcebook, which deals primarily with the militaries of North America.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Cybermancer »

Jason Richards wrote:Cybermancer, in the first portion of your post, you missed the point. Yes, martial arts is practiced for fitness and sport and basic self defense. However, none of those things constitute Hand to Hand: Martial Arts. They constitute physical skills or, at most, Hand to Hand: Basic.


Right away you do the very thing I tried to warn you against. I didn't miss the point at all and I addressed it clearly.

It is practiced as a sport. See mixed martial arts, tournaments and similar. These people are not "...at most, Hand to Hand: Basic. These guys are the very definition of what martial arts is!

It is practiced for fitness. Some may only develop their skills to the Hand to Hand: Basic level but there are those that develop it all the way to being as competent as those above. You're going to have a range of skill range from Basic to full blown Martial Arts. It is unfair and inaccurate to categorize them all in one pigeon hole.

It is practiced due to personal interest. Same as above. You're going to find the full gamut of skill range based on level of interest and pursuit. From basic to full blown Martial Arts. It is unfair and inaccurate to categorize them all in one pigeon hole.

It is practiced for practical self defense or 'just in case'. Again, the full range of skill can be found here. From Basic to full blown martial arts. It is unfair and inaccurate to categorize them all in one pigeon hole.

This is martial arts as it stands today where it is already terribly out of date and obsolete. There are alternatives that are easier to learn when it comes to self-defense, fitness or sports and yet martial arts persist today. There is absolutely no reason not to expect martial arts to be at the same level in 2098 as they were in 1998. Actually, with the increasing popularity of UFC, increased awareness of the physical benefits of martial arts and a preceeding decade of cold war that would see increased militarization along with the fear and paranioa that goes hand and hand with such an atmosphere, you come up with a very reasonable arguement for martial arts being more common than it is today. I'm not saying it would be, UFC is likely to be a fad rather than a trend but the point is that at least it's a reasonable arguement.

To say that the readers have missed the point or don't understand what martial arts really is, is insulting and dismissive and does not actually address points raised.

And the biggest point I made, you missed entirely.

Cybermancer wrote:Martial arts is going to be just common (or uncommon) as it is today.


I'm not actually argueing against Martial Arts being uncommon. I'm arguing against it being any different than it is today.

Next time you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss peoples arguments. Especially when they can actually be used to support your own stance.

Jason Richards wrote:I'm always open to discussion about the way the setting is developed, and anyone familiar with my work will tell you that. They will also tell you about my attention to detail and passion for research. Ultimately, you should play it however you like and you'll find no bigger supporter in that than me.


Discussion requires responding to reasoned points with reasoned counterpoints. Or even acknowledging that a good point was raised and is worth further consideration before moving on. And I'm not interested at all in hearing from others about how you have these qualities, I would prefer to see them demonstrated.

Jason Richards wrote:However, the setting canon is what it is. The fact of that is that in terms of your common survivors, the theme is that of unpreparedness. Common people have a couple of options: rely on the larger-than-life heroes such as those in NEMA or the very few counter-culturalists, or else rise above it on their own, despite their lack of relevant skills. That vulnerability is a GOOD thing, as it's what really good role-playing is all about and it gives players an option that doesn't include rail guns and invulnerable shining armor.


The canon material is a post apocolyptic world that takes place after ten years of cold war. Go look at early cold war behavior of the common man. Back when Joe Average was building bomb shelters in their backyard. These people should be half expecting a nuclear apocalypse. It's the return of magic that's going to catch them unprepared, not necessarily the complete collapse of civilization.

The canon material is a look at an age where science was making supermen and then civilization fell. Even average characters have genetic engineering stat bonuses available to them. Many of them are going to have cybernetics of some sort. Many are going to spontaniously develop psionic powers or start experimenting with magical energies (both already covered).

The canon material is about exceptional individuals rising above the rest (including exceptional civilians) to overcome the odds. Exceptional individuals are going to have some edge to help them rise above. Otherwise it's not much more than a victim game because it's a dangerous world and those without an edge better be under the protection of those that do.

Jason Richards wrote:As long as I'm writing for Palladium, you'll see consistent, thoughtful material with an emphasis on giving players and GMs lots of options.


We'll see. As they say, the proof is in the pudding.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Tiree »

I always viewed the Hand to Hand skills as very broad set of categories:

Basic - Would equate to brawling, street fighting, basic combat moves taught in boot camp, etc. This would probably equate to some training at a Dojo (mainly for those who like fitness, etc...)
Expert - More advanced training. People who do a lot of hand to hand combat moves. Someone that may go into the ring probably very frequently.
Martial Arts - this is a lump sum of all the Martial Art categories. Karate, Kung Fu, etc... But these are the guys with a Black Belt (possibly in two different forms) your MAA guys would also probably fit here.
Commando - Now this is an interesting one. This is basically a Military version of the Martial Art form. It would be the Krav Maga and other versions.
Lastly Assassin - this is what the CIA train you in, or possibly terrorists, and who knows what other groups. But I rank Martial Arts, Assassin and Commando at the same level of advancement, just different flavors.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Jason Richards »

I'll get into a more in depth discussion when I have a little more time, but just briefly, was it unclear that when I originally and subsequently referred to Martial Arts, that I was referring to the Hand to Hand skill? Cybermancer, I don't understand your most recent post, because you suggest that there is a range of participation and skill toward the study of martial arts, ranging from Hand to Hand: Basic and upward. I feel like you just restated my point, but that you feel like we're somehow at odds on the issue.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Jason Richards »

I just re-read your previous post, Cybermancer. Do you really suggest that bunker-building during the Cold War, even as late as the 70s and 80s, was a common practice? That this level of fear and preparedness was generally to be expected at that time, and thus the same phenomenon encountered at the end of the Golden Age?

If so, then I just completely disagree. Those people existed, of course, but they were fringe extremists and not the average person. The threat from the USSR was also far more palpable and specififc than anything felt during the Golden Age.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Cybermancer »

Jason Richards wrote:I'll get into a more in depth discussion when I have a little more time, but just briefly, was it unclear that when I originally and subsequently referred to Martial Arts, that I was referring to the Hand to Hand skill? Cybermancer, I don't understand your most recent post, because you suggest that there is a range of participation and skill toward the study of martial arts, ranging from Hand to Hand: Basic and upward. I feel like you just restated my point, but that you feel like we're somehow at odds on the issue.


Let's reveiw, shall we?

Your stated opinion:

Jason Richards wrote:In my opinion, martial arts should be virtually non-existent in Golden Age North America.


Your justification for that opinion:

Jason Richards wrote:Chaos Earth Golden Age North Americans (and in most other high-tech countries) were, basically, lazy. Technology made their lives easier so people never did things for themselves unless it was their job to do so. People generally didn't know how to cook food, use a gun, much less fight with any real competence. Medical technology made diet and exercise more or less unnecessary.


Your restated opinion:

Jason Richards wrote:I specifically noted that Hand to Hand: Expert and Hand to Hand: Assassin are alive and well in the Golden Age. I suggested that Martial Arts as a hand to hand combat skill was not widely practiced, at all.


Along with...

Jason Richards wrote:Of course various special government agents from across the board would be trained in lethal combat, which is why I specifically noted that Hand to Hand: Assassin would likely be more prominent than Martial Arts.


You also add:

Jason Richards wrote:...I think that perhaps some people don't have a proper view of what Hand to Hand: Martial Arts is as a skill. It is an intense, highly lethal fighting form, the most potent that is even remotely available to a normal person. Even in the world of Rifts, where violence and death are ever-present, it is not universally available. This is not a skill that you pick up after school at a "dojo" in the local strip mall. The thing being taught in every neighborhood is a physical skill, maybe even a couple of physical skills and perhaps a Weapon Proficiency,...


My opinion:

Cybermancer wrote:Martial arts is going to be just common (or uncommon) as it is today. More advanced technology will not mitigate any of the above factors. Technology is already advanced enough to make martial arts obsolete and yet it is still practiced.


My justification:

Cybermancer wrote:It's practiced as a sport.

It's practiced for fitness.

It's practiced due to personal interest.

It is practiced for practical self defense or 'just in case'.


So no, "Martial Arts will be as common (or uncommon) as it is today" is not a restatement or mean the same as "In my opinion, martial arts should be virtually non-existent in Golden Age North America".

Unless you think that Martial Arts is virtually non-existent today. Which I don't think is accurate because even someone studying at the local strip mall can (and sometimes do) take it to the level of competence that can be called Martial Arts. Because otherwise, what you're saying is that the people actually practicing the skill, don't have it. It's like saying a boxer doesn't know boxing or that someone who can read or write doesn't have literacy. That's a huge disconnect from reality that people are having a problem with.

I'm actually starting to wonder if perhaps you don't attribute more to the skill Hand to Hand Martial Arts than is actually there.

It is not actually "an intense, highly lethal fighting form, the most potent that is even remotely available to a normal person". A look through Rifts Japan or the two China books to compare shows that much to be true. What Hand to Hand: Martial Arts skill definitely is...

Rifts Ultimate Edition, Pg 316 wrote:This is some form of Oriental fighting skill (karate, kung-fu, etc.) that teaches advanced hand to hand combat. It costs three of the character's skill selections to learn. See the combat section for a listing of specific abilities.


Rifts Ultimate Edition, Pg 348 wrote:A form of martial arts that takes and mixes techniques from many different sources.


Not all martial arts are lethal. Not all martial arts are intense. Not all martial arts are the most potent even remotely available to a normal person. And the skill called Martial arts in the Palladium system doesn't have to be any of these things either. It only has to be some form of Oriental fighting skill that teaches advanced hand to hand combat or is taken from many different sources.

The canon is what it is.

Jason Richards wrote:I just re-read your previous post, Cybermancer. Do you really suggest that bunker-building during the Cold War, even as late as the 70s and 80s, was a common practice? That this level of fear and preparedness was generally to be expected at that time, and thus the same phenomenon encountered at the end of the Golden Age?

If so, then I just completely disagree. Those people existed, of course, but they were fringe extremists and not the average person. The threat from the USSR was also far more palpable and specififc than anything felt during the Golden Age.


I never said that it was common, I said that Joe Average was doing it. There is a difference. It was just one example of what otherwise normal people were doing at the time.

What the specific political climate was, is not stated further than, "cold war" and "arms race". We don't know what specific threats people in North America felt or who the 'bad guys' were. That doesn't mean that there weren't bad guys, or specific political tensions. Only that they have yet to be described. They are unspecific to us, the readers. They would have been quite specific to those involved. You don't have cold wars and arms races with unspecified threats.

Unspecified threats results in the sort of political climate and wars we have today.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Cybermancer »

Young Freud wrote:I've been kinda wondering about this subject for a while, since starting on the groundwork on a new campaign, but shouldn't there be a wider variety of hand to hand styles available in Chaos Earth, given the globalized nature of the Golden Age. Having only four or five styles available (not counting Rifts Japan) in base Rifts seems okay, since it focuses more on North America and most knowledge was likely wiped out and what styles do exist are based off a combination of reconstruction from surviving records and reinventing the techniques. But the Golden Age should likely have a plethora of easily learned alternatives to the homogenized, mixed martial arts nature of HtH: Martial Arts.

I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to see a list of available martial arts in the Golden Age, which may be asking a lot.

I suppose existing official martial arts could be renamed to fit newer, unlisted styles, such as the Russian martial art of Sambo could reskinned as Aikido or HtH: Commando, while the Israeli art of Krav Maga could be HtH: Assassin without the alignment restriction (which I don't even use anyway). I would rather not bring in too much of N&S, as I find it a bit overly complicated and not in the feel for what I am going for (I'd rather keep the Chi and martial arts power stuff out of it, since I would rather have that stuff exist as mystical "Hokuto no Ken" martial arts within the post-apocalyptic Rifts world).


I suggest you take a look at what is practiced today and go from there. Some forms you'll be able to locate in Ninja's and Superspies as well as Rifts Japan and the two China books. Any that aren't present can probably be extrapolated on based on existing material and a little research. Like I've already pointed out, what you find out there today will still likely be there in 80-90 years. Tae Kwon Do comes immediately to mind as does Kempo Karate and Jujitsu.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Jason Richards »

Okay, I'm in front of my source material now, so let me use that to illustrate my point, which is that Hand to Hand: Martial Arts is a skill more advanced than is commonly practiced by average people of the Golden Age. The idea seems to be out there that taking a martial arts class at a gym or local dojo is taking Hand to Hand: Martial Arts.

From a strictly game mechanics standpoint, there is a tiered effect of the scale and expertise when it comes to Hand to Hand combat. First of these is Basic, which "provides elementary fighting techniques and methods of attack and self-defense as taught in military basic training or in self-defense classes." Chaos Earth RPG, p. 125.

Clearly, while that training is the base level, someone with Basic is a legitimate hand to hand combatant. These are people with skill, including those that take self defense classes, as I noted before.

Next, at a higher skill price to grant more sophisticated training, we have Expert, which is "an advanced form of self-defense and unarmed combat taught to professionals and the military elite." Again, Chaos Earth RPG p. 125.

So, Expert is the skill taught to professional fighters and the military elite. That's strong company.

Finally, you have the third tier, which includes both Martial Arts and Assassin. These require even more training than the skills provided to professional fighters and the military elite. Mechanically, it generally requires an investment of 50% beyond what is required to be trained on par with professional fighters and the military elite. Martial Arts is precisely the definition you gave, above.

This is a level of skill that, even in the modern day, is not pursued or achieved by the average person, even if they take in some training in a "martial art." These are the elite hand to hand fighters in the Palladium system, at least to the extent that is normally attainable without special class allowances (such as some sort of Commando or foreign professional whose occupation involves an elite, rare hand to hand form).

The confusion is easy to make, but we have to be careful when mixing common language and the descriptions of skills and other game mechanics. "Martial Arts" means two very different things, depending on the context. So, I stand by my original post. What I suggested that you were restating from my post was the idea that people practice a range of "martial arts" varying from a kid taking a class at the Y to professional athletes who fight for a living. That's true, but only the very, very, very top range of these sorts of people actually learn any skill approaching Hand to Hand: Martial Arts.

Where you may be correct is that Martial Arts is just as uncommon in the Golden Age as today, but at that point you're getting into semantics, because in either case it's a very, very small percentage of the North American population, be it today or 100 years from now.


As to the idea of the Cold War and its implications, I think that the text runs counter to your interpretation. Page 10 of Chaos Earth describes the decline of the Golden Age as tensions come to the forefront of global politics. There is not a specific USA vs USSR type of conflict that is simply not mentioned, but a global increase in international tensions as the implications of the pace of technological development sinks into the global consciousness. The world had areas that really suffered, and even experienced civil unrest. However, "Other than a few hot spots and trouble zones in the world, peace prevailed and people lived the good life. Most believed this decade of reduced growth simply represented a natural slowdown, stabilization and necessary move toward responsibility and prosperity."

Are there normal people that are building bunkers in their basements? Yes. Do some people stockpile guns or learn how to defend themselves to a level far beyond even professional fighters? Sure. Is this a representation of the state of most people in North America? No. These are the counter-culturalists of which I spoke earlier, and they're covered in First Responders.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Carl Gleba »

Young Freud wrote:I've been kinda wondering about this subject for a while, since starting on the groundwork on a new campaign, but shouldn't there be a wider variety of hand to hand styles available in Chaos Earth, given the globalized nature of the Golden Age. Having only four or five styles available (not counting Rifts Japan) in base Rifts seems okay, since it focuses more on North America and most knowledge was likely wiped out and what styles do exist are based off a combination of reconstruction from surviving records and reinventing the techniques. But the Golden Age should likely have a plethora of easily learned alternatives to the homogenized, mixed martial arts nature of HtH: Martial Arts.

I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to see a list of available martial arts in the Golden Age, which may be asking a lot.

I suppose existing official martial arts could be renamed to fit newer, unlisted styles, such as the Russian martial art of Sambo could reskinned as Aikido or HtH: Commando, while the Israeli art of Krav Maga could be HtH: Assassin without the alignment restriction (which I don't even use anyway). I would rather not bring in too much of N&S, as I find it a bit overly complicated and not in the feel for what I am going for (I'd rather keep the Chi and martial arts power stuff out of it, since I would rather have that stuff exist as mystical "Hokuto no Ken" martial arts within the post-apocalyptic Rifts world).


It seems that the original intent of this post has been lost. Getting back on track with what Young Freud asked.

My opinion is keep it simple. I prefer the five martial arts forms in most of Palladium's books. Basic, Expert, Martial arts, Assassin and Commando. I think those would do just fine for North America. If you want to get into other more exotic martial arts forms I as a GM would probably make them regional. Such as if you want the martial arts in Rifts Japan than your character would be from Japan and so on. I'd also use Ninja's and Super Spies to supplement other regions.

As for the whole perspective on the Golden Age. I would think that in the last decade before the apocalypse the Golden Age was over. Perhaps in some patches it was still going on, but I picture corporate espionage and mounting tensions between countries and a resurgence of a cold war like atmosphere. I don't think NEMA was used to pacify crowds until the apocalypse hit. I could be wrong as its been a while since I read Chaos Earth.

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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

i agree with Jason.

lets take karate, since i actually know details about it.

hth: nothing would be those who took a few classes, but never bothered to stick to it.
HtH: basic would be those people who go to class every session.
Hth: Expert would be blackbelts, and instructors, who usually are even more skilled.
htH: martial arts would be the national or world champions, the cream of the crop.


the average person in the golden age is likely to be HTh: nothing or basic. i agree with jason that nothing is more likely. most styles require alot of effort for little apparent gain. weightlifting, jogging, and other such activities are more likely to appeal to normal people in the 2090's. those provide more direct results in terms of fitness, and require less apparent effort overall.
police officers and those oddballs really worried about self-defense are likely to fall in the basic catagory. not highly skilled, but they work at it.
military personell (at least those like marines) are likely to work hard at learning defense. they may not advance much in one style, but usually they put alot of effort into it, and fill in gaps with other styles. they'd be expert.
there aren't many people who would rate HtH martial arts level, but groups like SEALs, Force Recon, and other such elite military groups likely come close, working to refine their abilities even more due to their roles.

it's really more about knowledge than it is about power. a person with no Hth skill has just enough knowledge to get themselves in trouble. a person with basic has just enough to survive getting into trouble. a person with expert can escape from trouble. and Hth martialarts/commando/etc is a person who has learned to become a living weapon.

and of course, taking N&SS styles means trouble says "oh ****" when it sees you..
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Cybermancer »

Jason, I see that you didn't quote anything actually written about the skill, Hand to Hand: Martial Arts.

Allow me.

Rifts: Chaos Earth, pg 126 wrote:This is some form of general oriental fighting skill (karate, kung-fu, etc.) that teaches advanced hand to hand combat. See the Hand to Hand Combat section for a listing of bonuses and special abilities.


And also:

Rifts: Chaos Earth, Pg 142 wrote:Considered to be a generic form of martial arts, taking techniques from many sources.


Those are the specific descriptions of the skill. Anything that meets those criteria qualifies as the skill, Hand to Hand: Martial arts.

But let's look at everything is says for Hand to Hand: Basic and Expert.

For Hand to Hand: Basic it says...

Rifts: Chaos Earth, Pg 125 wrote:Provides elementary fighting techniques and methods of attack and self-defense as taught in military basic training or in self-defense classes. See the Hand to Hand Combat section for a listing of bonuses and special abilities.


And...

Rifts: Chaos Earth, Pg 141 wrote:This is an elementary form of hand to hand combat training. Though it hardly stacks up against some of the more advanced forms of fighting, one who has trained in Hand to Hand: Basic still fights with combat skill compared to the simple, everyday folk who populate Chaos Earth.


Okay, a note about the hand to hand training recieved on basic training. Mine included one full afternoon. That is all. So it takes about 3-4 hours to learn the skill, as written. Very basic indeed. So simple in fact that it compares to everyday folk.

And now Hand to Hand: Expert

Rifts: Chaos Earth, Pg 125 wrote:An advanced form of self-defense and unarmed combat taught to professionals and the military elite. See the Hand to Hand Combat section for a listing of bonuses and special abilities.


And

Rifts: Chaos Earth, Pg 142 wrote:This fighting style is often taught to soldiers, bodyguards, thieves, and anybody else who will be expected to live by violence. While it lacks the mastery of the Martial Arts, an Expert fighter knows how to scrap quickly and efficiently. At high levels, especially, those with this skill can often hold their own against dedicated masters of the martial arts.


I don't know what theives and body guards get for training but I do know about the seven day long unarmed combat course MP's get and others such as infantry can elect to take. I was even priviledged to have an afternoon 'familiarization' combat instruction from these guys (long after my basic). Definitely more in depth than the few hours instruction I got on my basic training and good enough that guys who've practiced for years (the high levels indicated above) can hold their own against those with actual martial arts training.

There's an even more advanced military unarmed combat course and unarmed instructors course but again, training time is measured in weeks for both and I would equate these to Hand to Hand: Commando.

Compare the training of an expert though (7 days @ 12 hours a day tops = a little over 80 hours, tops), to the hours of training put in by someone who studies martial arts at a strip mall dojo. Say they only put in a single hour every week. After just two years, they've put in 104 hours of training. And a single hour a week isn't even that dedicated. Given that the generic martial arts skill isn't that much superior to Hand to Hand: Expert, I'd say the skills simulate reality fairly reasonably.

Does everyone know martial arts? Of course not. Do most people? Still no. Is it all but disappeared? No, not even close. Just take a look at all the strip mall dojos and their loyal students, coming back, week after week.

But then I never said it was common. But to say that it's "virtually non-existent" is far from accurate. It exists and is common enough for it not to be particularily unusual.

In fact, given the number of people who put in more than two years of training in some form of martial arts, it's possible that Hand to Hand: Martial Arts may be more common than Expert (although basic is definitely the most common). Although that's just a guess. You'd have to count all the police, military police, FBI, RCMP and military personnel who've taken the training and compare it to those who have studied martial arts (which will include a significant portion of the military community who pursue it as a hobby outside their regular training). I do know that I've met more people who have studied martial arts, both civilian and military than I do people who have had advanced unarmed combat classes. That ratio would probably change if I were an MP or Elite military hand to hand combatant.

As for your comments, glitterboy2098, I think you're devaluing the level of skill demonstrated by a black belt or martial arts instructor. The black belts I've known can generally wipe the floor with someone with an unarmed combat course or even advanced unarmed combat course, unless that person either has a black belt of their own or extensive experience. But the truth is that unless the unarmed combat course is part of mandated training (as it is with MP's), then most people who pursue the unarmed combat courses are also taking martial arts, outside the military. But keep in mind that Hand to Hand: Expert as described is advanced military training given to the elite. This is commonly reflected in military OCC's that have Hand to Hand: Expert but can choose one of their own skills to upgrade it to Hand to Hand: Martial Arts.

The national champions either have a lot of experience (winning matches=experience) and/or a more advanced and specific form as is available outside of Hand to Hand: Martial Arts. Think about it, they had to learn the skill at first level and then refine it (specific form) and then master it (years of sparring matches and tournament bouts). Just as a character has to select the skill and then gets better at it as they gain in experience. You're pointing to the most experienced participants available and saying, "only they have the skill". But the truth is they learned the skill and then perfected it through experience.

You've basically pointed out high level characters as an example of the skill level that a first level character should have. Look at the bonuses granted at first level by Hand to Hand Basic, Expert and Martial Arts. There isn't a whole lot of difference. The difference comes as experience grows.

The skill description says nothing about being the best of the best or the cream of the crop. It says that it reflects training in some oriental style of advanced combat.

As for the more advanced martial art forms? A lot of them are covered. In Rifts Japan, the two Rifts China books or if you prefer, Ninjas and Superspies and Mystic China.

As for the cold war description in Chaos Earth, it is simply vague. It does talk about rivals, as well as a new age of secrecy, ruthless business manuevering, soaring unemployment and poverty, finger pointing, envy, suspicion, paranoia, disharmony, industrial and international espionage, accusations and on and on. All elements of the cold war era, which was what is being described. What has not been described is who these rivals were (from a North American stand point). Sure it was relatively peaceful. That's part of a cold war. You have hot spots but not all out global war.

I will direct you to the orginal Rifts book where Erin Tarn discusses the time before the rifts on pg 128. In the second column, near the bottom she says,

Erin Tarn wrote:The world empires were torn asunder, some condemning the actions, others supporting them, still others, lost to confusion. Regardless of who was at fault, the battle served as a dramatic illustration of what the new technologies could do in a war situation. Those without the super-science felt naked and defenseless (and they were). Fearful, small empires, polarizing the people, creating ever more distinct lines of imperial power. The "New Cold War", as it was called, saw all the empires begin to use their knowledge for the creation of war machines and super-soldiers. This is when the Glitter Boys, Juicers, M & M's, Borgs, Bots and Crazies were fully developed.

The previous decades of peace were lost.

Sometime shortly after this, perhaps as little time as a decade, the Time of the Rifts occurred and reshaped the world.


The italic emphasis is mine. These issues are critical to having a cold war. You need opposing sides. It's never been clearly illustrated who or what those sides were but there can be little doubt that they existed. And if I were writing about the time before the Rifts and just after, I would try and show it. Probably, as suggested by much of the text, there was a competition between the old world powers such as North America, Europe, Russia and the other developed nations with the newer upstarts such as China, India and Brazil. Not that the old conflicts would matter after the coming of the Rifts. Which is probably why they've never been previously developed. They aren't important to the game.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Jason Richards »

Had part of a response written, but thought better of it as it would only drag out a rehashed argument over and over again. It seems like we're no longer talking about combat skills in a role-playing game, but trying to equate your personal experiences to a gaming world, and that simply isn't how the game is built, and there's no common ground from which to have a discussion. It sounds like you have something that works for your game, so that's awesome. It certainly doesn't have to be in line with what is and will be written in future supplements.

Same goes for the state of the various nations locked in a Cold War. I don't agree with your interpretation, and it certainly isn't what I perceive the design intent of the game to be, but that design intent as presented in the CE RPG was pretty loose and sloppy to begin with, and the background vague, so you're free to take it into whatever direction you would like. Don't rely on Erin Tarn as any sort of canon, however, as there's nobody that has been so wrong so often in all of the volumes of Rifts.

As for the direction that the series will take, for my part Chaos Earth is a game about survival. The RPG originally was written such that players more or less had to be NEMA agents of one stripe or another, and then was expanded to magic users. First Responders will infinitely widen the possible scope of player characters, and deal at great lengths with normal, every day people from garbage collectors to politicians to auto mechanics to hackers; this book is already on Kevin's desk and hopefully it will see print, but who knows what will happen for sure, given the state of things. Psychic Storm will cover psychics, from minor to master, in new and exciting ways without duplicating the same old powers and classes that we've seen printed a dozen times, already. Following that will be Brothers in Arms, detailing the militaries and private armies of North America. They'll be all about maximizing fun and gaming opportunities, just like everything else that I've written. And all of it, 100% of every page, is optional and any player or GM can take or leave what they like. You can't please everyone, but I do my best. :)
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Tiree »

glitterboy2098 wrote:i agree with Jason.

lets take karate, since i actually know details about it.

hth: nothing would be those who took a few classes, but never bothered to stick to it.
HtH: basic would be those people who go to class every session.
Hth: Expert would be blackbelts, and instructors, who usually are even more skilled.
htH: martial arts would be the national or world champions, the cream of the crop.


the average person in the golden age is likely to be HTh: nothing or basic. i agree with jason that nothing is more likely. most styles require alot of effort for little apparent gain. weightlifting, jogging, and other such activities are more likely to appeal to normal people in the 2090's. those provide more direct results in terms of fitness, and require less apparent effort overall.
police officers and those oddballs really worried about self-defense are likely to fall in the basic catagory. not highly skilled, but they work at it.
military personell (at least those like marines) are likely to work hard at learning defense. they may not advance much in one style, but usually they put alot of effort into it, and fill in gaps with other styles. they'd be expert.
there aren't many people who would rate HtH martial arts level, but groups like SEALs, Force Recon, and other such elite military groups likely come close, working to refine their abilities even more due to their roles.

it's really more about knowledge than it is about power. a person with no Hth skill has just enough knowledge to get themselves in trouble. a person with basic has just enough to survive getting into trouble. a person with expert can escape from trouble. and Hth martialarts/commando/etc is a person who has learned to become a living weapon.

and of course, taking N&SS styles means trouble says "oh ****" when it sees you..

This is pretty much how I see it. Palladium Skills are so vague sometimes and then get so specific. One thing that people sometimes forget about (myself included) experience level. Sometimes someone with Hand to Hand Basic is a heck of a lot more powerful than someone with Hand to Hand Expert or Martial Arts, just by being that much more experienced.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Cybermancer »

Boggsy wrote:
Jason Richards wrote:Had part of a response written, but thought better of it as it would only drag out a rehashed argument over and over again. It seems like we're no longer talking about combat skills in a role-playing game, but trying to equate your personal experiences to a gaming world, and that simply isn't how the game is built, and there's no common ground from which to have a discussion. It sounds like you have something that works for your game, so that's awesome. It certainly doesn't have to be in line with what is and will be written in future supplements.


I seriously can't believe how rude that sounded. He clearly and concisely demonstrated modern day usage of martial arts and why it logically shouldn't be dying out any time soon. You not only didn't acknowledge those points you said you're right because Martial Arts is a super skill only the cream of the crop possess. He quotes the book, again clear and concise, pointing out his point is perfectly valid. You learn the skill (in this case the well defined Martial Arts), THEN you get better at it. Your response is to say, 'I'm glad you're enjoying your misinterpretation of the rules'?

Okay the rest of the points are pretty vague and I agree it's anything goes, but the Martial Arts point is simple. Or do you have to be the greatest neurosurgeon EVAR before you get the medical doctor skill?


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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

To address the original post, Sambo and Krav Maga are both in a Rifter Article, I believe Rifter 7? Check the index in the Rifter Forums.

Also, the cardinal rule of Palladium Games: Do it your way. If you're the GM, it's yours to do with as you please. If you want it in your game, than do it.

To address the side topics: Jason, you've got me psyched. My favorite class in RIFTS is the Vagabond, and in contemporary settings its the Normal Person from BTS. I was a bit disappointed in CE for the lack of regular people, so hurry up and get that book done dude!

While you didn't specifically quote word for word the sections on Hand to Hand, your interpretation is dead on.

Cybermancer, this is a game, not real life. Drawing parallel's to your personal experience in the real world is taking a narrow perspective on the game's potential and limits. I'm not saying you have a narrow perspective, I'm saying we all do; contemplating grand things doesn't give us a greater knowledge of the world than the limits of our natural perception. All of our deductions are pure speculation, regardless of what we see as evidence to back them up.

That said, in several books Kev has pointed out that Player Characters are larger than life heroes, and that what is available to them and thus common to them is not representative of the overall population of the game world. Jason said Martial Arts as a skill was uncommon in the golden age, and I'm agreeing, and going one step further to say despite your personal experience, it is uncommon in the real world too. Jason's descriptions of who's likely to have what skill still hold water. I don't think I saw anywhere in your posts that suggested that every character should have martial arts, but you seem to imply that by the fact that you insist on disagreeing with every thing Jason says.

I think it would be best to let sleeping dogs lie and agree to disagree. Jason stated that he's open to discussion, but I've never seen him happily get into an argument, which is how your posts appear to be going.

Do what you want with your game, and believe what you want as long as you aren't harming anyone in the process. If you don't like what Jason's writing, don't buy it, that's your prerogative. If you think you can do it better, than by all means do so and submit it. Either way, be at peace.

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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Dustin Fireblade »

Cybermancer wrote:
For Hand to Hand: Basic it says...

Rifts: Chaos Earth, Pg 125 wrote:Provides elementary fighting techniques and methods of attack and self-defense as taught in military basic training or in self-defense classes. See the Hand to Hand Combat section for a listing of bonuses and special abilities.


And...

Rifts: Chaos Earth, Pg 141 wrote:This is an elementary form of hand to hand combat training. Though it hardly stacks up against some of the more advanced forms of fighting, one who has trained in Hand to Hand: Basic still fights with combat skill compared to the simple, everyday folk who populate Chaos Earth.


Okay, a note about the hand to hand training recieved on basic training. Mine included one full afternoon. That is all. So it takes about 3-4 hours to learn the skill, as written. Very basic indeed. So simple in fact that it compares to everyday folk.



The quote from pg 141 states that one with Basic HtH fights with combat skill vs the average Golden Age person, who has no training at all. If you look right above the stat block for Basic HtH there on page 141, you will see what exactly that average person gets. Hardly a comparison really IMHO.


At any rate...you guys are basically walking down the street in the same direction, just on different sides talking about "Martial Arts"

Cybermancer wrote:Does everyone know martial arts? Of course not. Do most people? Still no. Is it all but disappeared? No, not even close. Just take a look at all the strip mall dojos and their loyal students, coming back, week after week.

But then I never said it was common. But to say that it's "virtually non-existent" is far from accurate. It exists and is common enough for it not to be particularily unusual.


The Martial Arts skill, as you pointed out from pg 142, is generic. I don't know of any dojo that one can go and learn multiple styles all at once. Its description to me almost sounds like the Marine Corps martial art program -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Cor ... ts_Program

Now if you go by the quote on pg 126 (notice how the two quotes contradict each other?), then it's a specific form of martial art. Yeah people with knowledge of a specific form are a dime a dozen right? This would be your specific form taken from the Japan or China books.

The number of people who know either, compared to the overall population figure, makes it "virtually non-existent" as pointed out. A guy who knows either is going to be like the guy building his bunker in the basement, not unheard of.

Is the knowledge readily available in 2098? Absolutely. Just like the knowledge to become a blacksmith is readily available today, if you want to study that field.

It's like pagers today. Everyone has moved on to cell phones of one type or another. Only those businesses that are looking to keep costs down use a pager anymore, I certainly don't know any individual that has one. Now that I think of it, my apartment complex is the only place I know of that uses a pager anymore. In other words its "virtually non-existent" when compared to the overall population.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by RoadWarriorFWaNK »

everyone in NEMA should be a Kung Fu Master because Kung Fu is still around and widely practiced by everybody. you can just watch it on super-HD-holographic Youtube and learn it in an afternoon. You really dropped the ball on this one, jason richards!!
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by dark brandon »

True story. I love MMA, and I have exercise using Tybo. Obviously, I'm a great martial artist since it's the exact same thing. Yep...poor jason dropping balls everywhere...
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by keir451 »

Jason Richards wrote:Okay, I'm in front of my source material now, so let me use that to illustrate my point, which is that Hand to Hand: Martial Arts is a skill more advanced than is commonly practiced by average people of the Golden Age. The idea seems to be out there that taking a martial arts class at a gym or local dojo is taking Hand to Hand: Martial Arts.

From a strictly game mechanics standpoint, there is a tiered effect of the scale and expertise when it comes to Hand to Hand combat. First of these is Basic, which "provides elementary fighting techniques and methods of attack and self-defense as taught in military basic training or in self-defense classes." Chaos Earth RPG, p. 125.

Clearly, while that training is the base level, someone with Basic is a legitimate hand to hand combatant. These are people with skill, including those that take self defense classes, as I noted before.

Next, at a higher skill price to grant more sophisticated training, we have Expert, which is "an advanced form of self-defense and unarmed combat taught to professionals and the military elite." Again, Chaos Earth RPG p. 125.

So, Expert is the skill taught to professional fighters and the military elite. That's strong company.

Finally, you have the third tier, which includes both Martial Arts and Assassin. These require even more training than the skills provided to professional fighters and the military elite. Mechanically, it generally requires an investment of 50% beyond what is required to be trained on par with professional fighters and the military elite. Martial Arts is precisely the definition you gave, above.

This is a level of skill that, even in the modern day, is not pursued or achieved by the average person, even if they take in some training in a "martial art." These are the elite hand to hand fighters in the Palladium system, at least to the extent that is normally attainable without special class allowances (such as some sort of Commando or foreign professional whose occupation involves an elite, rare hand to hand form).

The confusion is easy to make, but we have to be careful when mixing common language and the descriptions of skills and other game mechanics. "Martial Arts" means two very different things, depending on the context. So, I stand by my original post. What I suggested that you were restating from my post was the idea that people practice a range of "martial arts" varying from a kid taking a class at the Y to professional athletes who fight for a living. That's true, but only the very, very, very top range of these sorts of people actually learn any skill approaching Hand to Hand: Martial Arts.

Where you may be correct is that Martial Arts is just as uncommon in the Golden Age as today, but at that point you're getting into semantics, because in either case it's a very, very small percentage of the North American population, be it today or 100 years from now.


As to the idea of the Cold War and its implications, I think that the text runs counter to your interpretation. Page 10 of Chaos Earth describes the decline of the Golden Age as tensions come to the forefront of global politics. There is not a specific USA vs USSR type of conflict that is simply not mentioned, but a global increase in international tensions as the implications of the pace of technological development sinks into the global consciousness. The world had areas that really suffered, and even experienced civil unrest. However, "Other than a few hot spots and trouble zones in the world, peace prevailed and people lived the good life. Most believed this decade of reduced growth simply represented a natural slowdown, stabilization and necessary move toward responsibility and prosperity."

Are there normal people that are building bunkers in their basements? Yes. Do some people stockpile guns or learn how to defend themselves to a level far beyond even professional fighters? Sure. Is this a representation of the state of most people in North America? No. These are the counter-culturalists of which I spoke earlier, and they're covered in First Responders.

Actually what we're saying is that the various forms of martial Arts would still be extant even in the Golden Age, and like NSS they would be seperate and distinct from each other AND from the typical HtH Martial Arts listed in the book. Now during the apocalypse there'd be no time for the average Joe to pick up a new Martial Art form so the more common ones practiced here in the US and in some other countries might die off. In my case I could see certain ones like Shaolin Kung-Fu surviving in secluded "mystical, hidden, monasteries" and then we have Rifts Japan which would carry forward w/them the ones practiced in Japan.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

Actually I'm changing my position here; this morning I watched part of Power Rangers Mystic Force with my four year old and he then proceeded to go Kung Fu on me. Obviously this is proof that anyone can master a martial art by watching video.

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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Jason Richards »

Someone asked me to expand on my comments regarding the life expectancy. The life expectancy in the original printing of CE is, in fact, incorrect, as the ages given don't make sense. It was corrected in the second printing. The errata is stickied at the top of the forum.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by NMI »

duck-foot wrote:
keir451 wrote:I apply all the martial arts from N&SS, I even allow for the Chi abilities, as i feel they reflect what's available today (as far as martial Arts goes).
The only "mythical one" that I've allowed (still working on some of it's techniques) is the Panzer Kunst art from the Battle Angel Alita manga series. Anti-cyborg/armor arts rule!!!
In Rifts era I allow for a relative few to have survived, namely Shaolin Kung-fu, Okinawan Style Karate, Kendo, and the ones from Rifts Japan. I figure that Shaolin style might have survived in the temples in China (perhaps w/a greater emphasis on anti-demon arts) and the Okinawan Karate could have survived, unchanged, in the tech cities of Japan.
Speaking of Martial Arts anyone else seen the new Karate Kid movie yet? :D

panzer kunts????? what the heck. explain

Panzer Kunst
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by keir451 »

Mr. Deific NMI wrote:
duck-foot wrote:
keir451 wrote:I apply all the martial arts from N&SS, I even allow for the Chi abilities, as i feel they reflect what's available today (as far as martial Arts goes).
The only "mythical one" that I've allowed (still working on some of it's techniques) is the Panzer Kunst art from the Battle Angel Alita manga series. Anti-cyborg/armor arts rule!!!
In Rifts era I allow for a relative few to have survived, namely Shaolin Kung-fu, Okinawan Style Karate, Kendo, and the ones from Rifts Japan. I figure that Shaolin style might have survived in the temples in China (perhaps w/a greater emphasis on anti-demon arts) and the Okinawan Karate could have survived, unchanged, in the tech cities of Japan.
Speaking of Martial Arts anyone else seen the new Karate Kid movie yet? :D

panzer kunts????? what the heck. explain

Panzer Kunst

TH, D. NMI. I actally didn't realize that site existed. :lol: Saw the new Karate (Kung Fu?) Kid, the monastery/temple in the movie is what I envisage wen I think of "hidden temples" in China.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by MADMANMIKE »

COL. LYBOCK wrote:Huh.
Well for someone who doesn't like to 'split hairs', you are awfully good at it.
I'm not sure if you actually did a full blown scientific survey of a 1000 people, guess I'll just have to take your word for it; but you're kind of makin' my point for me. Out of the low percentage of people you know that like MMA, hunting, and guns (notice how all these people seem to fall in the same category), who do you think would be more likely to survive an apocalypse?
Them or people like yourself? :ok:


The point you're missing is this argument only holds water if the RIFTS were to come tomorrow, not nearly a hundred years from now. To suggest that the world will be the same socially in 80 years is not only unlikely, it's historically proven absurd.

When Palladium publishes a Golden Age sourcebook describing the World just before the Coming of the Rifts, then you can complain to your hearts content that you disagree with what has been written. Arguing that the opinions of the man most likely to write that book are wrong is pointless and will not bear fruit.

Like uanuiil said, have it your way. Play your games how you want. If you can write a book and get it published by Palladium, then by all means go ahead. Then canon will be what you want. Until then, agree to disagree with it and move on.

It's one thing to voice disagreement, it's another to argue "I'm right and you're wrong" ad nauseum.

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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Spinachcat »

I fully agree that the canon is confusing and contradictory and that CE really should have been "Alternate Earth becoming Alternate Rifts" for the sake of canon issues.

This is why I put the Apocalypse at 2199. You need more than century between Now and Then to erase these kinds of objections.

However, I do agree that 2010 looks a lot different than 1980, let alone 1930 and you can postulate that societal changes will be increasing more rapidly as our tech increases. Just look at how Chinese society has been radically altered in just 20 years!

Still, I put it at 2199 because it makes it easier for players to accept major societal changes in NA. In my CE, all of North America is a single nation (the USNA) and global warming ravaged the earth and the Golden Age was the rebirth...until the New Cold War arose with the rise of MD tech.

However, I can see a future society where brain downloads are how you learn skills instead of years of training the basics and only those who need access to certain skills every get those downloads.

As for the masses, they probably live very virtual lives. Who needs to learn Kung Fu when you can play the Bruce Lee MMO in full virtual reality?

As for ranking HTH, here's my take:

None =this is what 90% of people have.

Basic = you have mastered basic H2H techniques, about what amateur martial art afficiandos get and most cops, soldiers, etc. If you only train while at the dojo twice a week, this is what you get after a few years.

Expert = you can teach Basic at your local mall or be an instructor for a paramilitary org. This is the guy who trained daily for years and knows his shiznak.

Martial Arts = you are devoted to H2H fighting. These are competitive MMA guys and commandos who have taken their fighting from aggresive moves into a physical art. And to maintain this level, they maintain a constant workout schedule to optimize their abilities.

Assassin = as MA guys, but its not about fighting. It's about killing and killing quickly. The alignment restriction doesn't fully work for me. Maybe just as "non-good" instead of "evil".
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Lt Gargoyle »

Young Freud wrote:I've been kinda wondering about this subject for a while, since starting on the groundwork on a new campaign, but shouldn't there be a wider variety of hand to hand styles available in Chaos Earth, given the globalized nature of the Golden Age. Having only four or five styles available (not counting Rifts Japan) in base Rifts seems okay, since it focuses more on North America and most knowledge was likely wiped out and what styles do exist are based off a combination of reconstruction from surviving records and reinventing the techniques. But the Golden Age should likely have a plethora of easily learned alternatives to the homogenized, mixed martial arts nature of HtH: Martial Arts.

I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to see a list of available martial arts in the Golden Age, which may be asking a lot.

I suppose existing official martial arts could be renamed to fit newer, unlisted styles, such as the Russian martial art of Sambo could reskinned as Aikido or HtH: Commando, while the Israeli art of Krav Maga could be HtH: Assassin without the alignment restriction (which I don't even use anyway). I would rather not bring in too much of N&S, as I find it a bit overly complicated and not in the feel for what I am going for (I'd rather keep the Chi and martial arts power stuff out of it, since I would rather have that stuff exist as mystical "Hokuto no Ken" martial arts within the post-apocalyptic Rifts world).



Yes there should be, if you want there to be. As a fully dedicated martial arts student and instructor, I think there can be more flavor in the beginning of the holocaust. As time wears on and teachers become scarse, i think you would have the basic martial art form described in the HtH section of the book.

this is how i allow it in my games, the character choses hand to hand martial arts and then pays one more other skill for the chose specialty martial art. and it has to be chosen at the begining of the characters life or must be fully role played where the pc must return to the master to learn the rest of the secrets held back.

Jason richards - the only thing i disagreed with on your arguments was that america embrasses the martial arts as much or more so then china and japan. look at our media. almost every action hero from the 80s on has become a martial artist. (not all of them.) I have heard and met grand masters from china who have spoken to me about how they love teaching americans because we desire to learn more of the old ways then some of thier own people.

otherwise take the hand to hand as the group decides, this is the GM as well as the players.

I personally see it this way

non hth - this is the average person
basic - police, street brawler, bully type.
expert - these are those guys who go to class once/twice aweek. military and those who are on thier way to black belts
Martial arts/commando/assassin - these are the dedicated die hards. they study and they practice to keep themselves in top physical shape.

but this is my thoughts on it.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by csbioborg »

one of the fundamental flaws in this conversation is the assumption soldiers recieve extensive hand to hand combat training compared to the average guy who trains a couple times a week.
I've competed in mma boxing grappling and muay thai (and karate when I was younger)
I also served in a combat mos in the marine corps
I also have guys that are in the SEALS at my mma gym who bring in their seal who don't train
I see how little training special ops military and law enforcement recieve compared to the average dude at the gym
anyone of my purple belts can take a untrained SEAL Marine etc down and choke him out
mililtary comabtives is just not very good
its designed so that you can beat the average dude out in town
so the guy over at the local gym is going to have hand to hand martial arts
over your average grunt
why a grunt is always in the field he's humping shooting etc
he is not training to fight hand to hand
in fact admin dudes do more Marine Corps Martial Arts than grunts because they have time to do so
I really think some of the authors in this thread assume there excellent knowledge of writing correlates into knwoledge of how people progress in unarmed combat well that's just not the case
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Lt Gargoyle »

fair point csbioborg, also when you are curb stomping a guy down while three of your bodies hold a gun on him you are more then likely going to have this fight. I wonder what it would be like for the average police officer to have to deal with someone on equal terms, no guns and partners.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Mantisking »

Jason Richards wrote:In my opinion, martial arts should be virtually non-existent in Golden Age North America. Remember, the Golden Age of Humanity wasn't Star Trek-like, where technology made everyone equals and gave people time to pursue physical and mental disciplines for the sake of their own improvement.

Chaos Earth Golden Age North Americans (and in most other high-tech countries) were, basically, lazy. Technology made their lives easier so people never did things for themselves unless it was their job to do so. People generally didn't know how to cook food, use a gun, much less fight with any real competence. Medical technology made diet and exercise more or less unnecessary.

I'm sorry but, that's a load of crap. Humanity would have to die out for martial arts to cease to exist. Given more free time and the money to exploit it, people who already seriously study some form of combat art are going to spend more time doing it, not less. And improved medical technology is going to make it easier to heal back from any injuries you sustain while training.

You make it sound like people are going to turn into the humans from Wall-E.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Jason Richards »

I see that this topic has cropped up again, so allow me to reiterate my point (though you should certainly read the entirety of the thread and my responses). Let me just quote some passages from the text. Before I do, however, let me remind everyone that my position here is not based on what YOU feel is right, or how YOU should play your game, or even what I feel is right or how I run my game, but only what is CANON in Chaos Earth as it stands right now.

First, the idea that the average citizen in Chaos Earth is relatively unskilled when it comes to "every day" sorts of skills, which have been replaced by technology and the service industry. This is very important to understanding CE as it is written.

p. 50
Social-Economic Note: One of modern society's weaknesses, especially nearly 100 years in the future, it that the average person has limited knowledge and skill in what was once considered common skills or even "arts and crafts." Consequently, a tiny percentage of people possess basic carpentry, building or survival skills, or know how to farm, hunt, sew, knit, weave, preserve food or even cook. Thus, even the most basic skills necessary in a wilderness or apocalyptic situation must be rediscovered and taught. This is a contributing reason why many cities experience immediate panic as people used to restaurants and skilled professionals to provide their basic, day to day needs, are suddenly on their own. Without they they are lost and panic stricken.


This is highly important to understanding the setting. Whether you agree or not, the canon is that people of the Golden Age become fairly helpless without their modern conveniences. This isn't really that much of a stretch, if you think about it. We all like to consider ourselves equipped for a world without these things, but really think about it. Think about people you work with, or go to school with, or are in your family, or even game with. Don't you know a lot of people that, if only the power and water were to be shut down, wouldn't really know what to do? If you dropped them in the middle of Yellowstone with only the clothes on their back, how would they fare? Sure in Chaos Earth there is scavenging to be had, but that dries up pretty quickly once the race is on for everyone to grab what they can. Just something to think about while we consider what the canon tells us that Golden Agers do with their time and energy.

On to hand to hand skills, in particular, the following illustrates that we must make a distinction between what is generally "a martial art" and what is defined as "Hand to Hand: Martial Arts" (or Expert or Assassin or whatever).

First, it has been suggested that one can learn Hand to Hand: Martial Arts by attending classes in a gym, dojo, and by being practiced for sport/fitness/personal interest/self defense. According to the canon, those practices do not constitute HtH:MA, but Hand to Hand: Basic.

p. 125
Hand to Hand: Basic: Provides elementary fighting techniques and methods of attack and self-defense as taught in military basic training or in self defense classes.

p. 141
Hand to Hand: Basic
This is an elementary form of hand to hand combat training. Though it hardly stacks up against some of the more advanced forms of fighting, one who has trained in Hand to Hand: Basic still fights with combat skill compared to the simple, everyday folk who populate Chaos Earth.


The descriptions seem a little all over the place here, but one thing is clear: Hand to Hand: Basic is a very basic self defense, and that the average person in Chaos Earth doesn't even possess this level of combat ability.

Now, what does the text say about Hand to Hand: Expert?

p. 125
Hand to Hand: Expert: An advanced form of self-defense and unarmed combat taught to professionals and the military elite.

p. 142
Hand to Hand: Expert
This fighting style is often taught to soldiers, bodyguards, thieves, and anybody else who will be expected to live by violence. While it lacks the mastery of the Martial Arts, an Expert fighter knows how to scrap quickly and efficiently. At high levels, especially, those with this skill can often hold their own against dedicated masters of the martial artists.


So, HtH:E, which is one level "above" Basic and "below" Martial Arts, is for professionals and the military elite, and people who live by violence. This is not simply something learned in the corner gym, but for people who fight for a living (soldiers, military elite, bodyguards, thieves, etc.).

Now we're up to Hand to Hand: Martial Arts

p. 126
Hand to Hand: Martial Arts: This is some form of general oriental fighting skill (karate, kung-fu, etc.) that teaches advanced hand to hand combat.

p. 142
Hand to Hand: Martial Arts
Considered to be a generic form of martial arts, taking techniques from many sources.


HtH:MA is an advanced hand to hand skill, in excess of that shown by Expert (though the description does little to talk it up). It takes more time and effort to learn than does Expert (because it counts as more skill selections), which is a professional level of training. Those possessing this skill are trained in combat at the very highest levels, short of the incredibly rare and specialized skills such as Assassin and Commando.

So, in summary, when you take the text and really look at it, what you have is that while a large number of people practice some sort of self defense, or a "martial art" as a sport or hobby, that would be classified as Hand to Hand: Basic. We also know that HtH: Basic is a level of training that is beyond everyday people. Finally, we know that very few people on Chaos Earth (or our Earth, by the books) know Hand to Hand: Martial Arts, which is combat skill at or beyond a professional level.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by RoadWarriorFWaNK »

as an interesting side note and possible setting contradiction, according to page 106, HtH Basic, Expert, Martial Arts, and yes, even Assassin, can be taken as Secondary Skills.
As far as I know, Chaos Earth is the only Palladium setting that allows this. Not even Rifts or Ninjas & Superspies.
what does that mean? hell if i know, but it is interesting.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by dark brandon »

In Heroes unlimited you can choose it as well.

Physical: Hand to hand: Expert counts as 2, MA or assassin as 3.

I think it means simply that you CAN learn it. It's available. That being said, most people who do learn to fight are only going to learn HTH: basic. For example, there are more people who "know" MMA or Judo (basic), but of them, only a very small % are on a competitive level (Expert) and even few of them who get good enough to truely make a living out of it (MA).
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by RoadWarriorFWaNK »

dark brandon wrote:In Heroes unlimited you can choose it as well.

Physical: Hand to hand: Expert counts as 2, MA or assassin as 3.

I think it means simply that you CAN learn it. It's available. That being said, most people who do learn to fight are only going to learn HTH: basic. For example, there are more people who "know" MMA or Judo (basic), but of them, only a very small % are on a competitive level (Expert) and even few of them who get good enough to truely make a living out of it (MA).

i just think its funny that in chaos earth you can learn to kill people as a hobby.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by Jason Richards »

Keep in mind, this is a game in which every doomsday cultist is a trained assassin, so reason often jumps ship at some point.
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by dark brandon »

RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:i just think its funny that in chaos earth you can learn to kill people as a hobby.


Guns?
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Re: R:CE Martial Arts?

Unread post by RoadWarriorFWaNK »

dark brandon wrote:
RoadWarriorFWaNK wrote:i just think its funny that in chaos earth you can learn to kill people as a hobby.


Guns?



learning to shoot guns =/= learning to kill people
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