Random Thoughts 4.

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Rathorc Lemenger
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Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Rathorc Lemenger »

Here's an interesting question for all of you folks: If you could soup-up/adjust any of the Power Armours in any of the Dimension Books, what would you do with what ones?

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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by taalismn »

We talking REASONABLE upgrades or ABSURD pimp-ups?
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Rathorc Lemenger »

Both.

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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by taalismn »

Chipwell PA with both Naruni invisibility camouflage and a Phase Field.
Even if either fail, anybody who sees you is not going to BELIEVE you're seriously threatening them.... :P
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

My dream would be to bring the Silverhawk armor into a shape where it can be used in regular games again.
I would do this by removing the absurdly op force field penetration ability, and bring the weapon ranges into line with every other weapon in the game.

As it is it sucks that the signature armor of the CAF is something that pretty much no GM allows anyone to have because it is so broken as to be a bad joke.

(And yes... I do think that lowering its stats is a boost... because being able to play a reasonable version of something is a vast improvement over not being able to play an overpowered version of it)
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by dragonfett »

Why not ask your GM for a Black Market knock-off with the reduced stats you're looking for?
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

dragonfett wrote:Why not ask your GM for a Black Market knock-off with the reduced stats you're looking for?

Several reasons
The first is that one of the issues is with the rifle. So the game world rifle needs to be changed otherwise people will just go get a new rifle with the same problematical stats

The second problem is that the suit as a mass market item which is used by everyone in one of the three militaries... it is way out of whack balance wise.
That means that if the suit exists at all the game runs into huge problems. Like power armor that can take down starships... and that the military has billions of.

The third problem is that simply given someone a broken copy of something invariably leads to that player simply working to 'go get this fixes'/'get a working copy' and then you have to either deal with the entire issue then or tell them out of game that your just not going to let them get it, no matter what they do... even though it is a standard issue item that is sold all over the place on the black market. It would be like telling a character that they can't have a Samas armor and that any that they get will have to be rebuild BM 'specials'... but that the CS and all the mercenaries and everyone ELSE can have perfectly working ones. And that no matter what he does in game that he will never be allowed to capture one of the suits...because it will just fail.
To me that is the worst sort of rail-road GMing possible.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by dragonfett »

When I said reduced stats that you are looking for, I was referring to the stats you feel would be fair and balanced, so that you can have your suit without unbalancing the game.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by dreicunan »

eliakon wrote:My dream would be to bring the Silverhawk armor into a shape where it can be used in regular games again.
I would do this by removing the absurdly op force field penetration ability, and bring the weapon ranges into line with every other weapon in the game.

As it is it sucks that the signature armor of the CAF is something that pretty much no GM allows anyone to have because it is so broken as to be a bad joke.

(And yes... I do think that lowering its stats is a boost... because being able to play a reasonable version of something is a vast improvement over not being able to play an overpowered version of it)

Apart from the price on the armor (cheaper than the inferior ground pounder armor a few pages later) and the rifle (which outclasses any other rifle I can recall to a ludicrous degree), we never found it to be too far ab outlier. Then again, IIRC we theorized that if it has been around with that capability for over 100 years, clearly the opponents of the CAF would have at least upgraded point defense systems on ships to deal with it.

What specific changes would you make to it for it to be acceptable at most tables?
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

dreicunan wrote:
eliakon wrote:My dream would be to bring the Silverhawk armor into a shape where it can be used in regular games again.
I would do this by removing the absurdly op force field penetration ability, and bring the weapon ranges into line with every other weapon in the game.

As it is it sucks that the signature armor of the CAF is something that pretty much no GM allows anyone to have because it is so broken as to be a bad joke.

(And yes... I do think that lowering its stats is a boost... because being able to play a reasonable version of something is a vast improvement over not being able to play an overpowered version of it)

Apart from the price on the armor (cheaper than the inferior ground pounder armor a few pages later) and the rifle (which outclasses any other rifle I can recall to a ludicrous degree), we never found it to be too far ab outlier. Then again, IIRC we theorized that if it has been around with that capability for over 100 years, clearly the opponents of the CAF would have at least upgraded point defense systems on ships to deal with it.

What specific changes would you make to it for it to be acceptable at most tables?

Where to begin...

I would replace the rifle with a realistic rifle. the 2 mile laser has to go. So does the 200 grenades
2,000' Laser
1,200' Particle Beam
1,000' Grenade Launcher
Damages are WAY to high as well
This PB rifle is doing 3d6x10 damage.. i.e. it is doing main gun on robots and basic starship weaponry damage!
that gets dropped down to 1d4x10 with the regular particle beam n19 rules maybe 1d6x10
The laser drops down as well something like 4d6+6 but not 2d4x10
The linked fire goes bye-bye as well.
grenades need to be rifle grenades, and something like 5 or maybe 10 since it is a bit oversized is reasonable.

I would drop the "full sized GR-45HP Submachineguns on each wrist". Move them down to GR-10P pistols

The Force Field Disrupter needs to go completely. That is
a) An absurdly powerful piece of gear since it makes forcefields almost pointless
b) this absuredly powerful and epicly useful gear... is only found on this one suit and never anywhere else? Come on. If this technology existed it would be in use all over the place, not just on one unique suit of power armor.

Changing Colors provides 'stealth' is an ultratech setting? huh??? over?
Seriously everyone uses radar and thermals and all manner of super tech sensors... but this thing can 'blend in'... for a -1.
Either give it a real stealth system, with full stealth bonuses... and the costs and limitations of stealth, or don't. But just stacking on bonuses for the lulz is stupid. *removes that*

The H2H skill is also just munchtastic.
Its bonuses are nothing short of amazing!
+2 APM at level one!! Yes, it 'only' gains three as it levels up... but the front loading makes it super powerful. Especially since the 'leveling out' occurs only after level 6...
The rest of the bonuses are 'only' just a bit better than every other suit of armor... :-?
I would drop the idea of a 'special' skill for it and just use 'flying power armor' like everyone else.

Then we get to the MDC
Main body of 420?!? The norm for power armor is 150-250 with 'heavy suits' in the 200-350 range. This 'light, fast and agile' suit is more heavily armored and tougher than almost anything out there short of a Glitterboy!
Halve the numbers, and drop the 0 off of the rifle (15 not 150)

PS 50?
punch of 3d6?
*breaks out the nerf bat again*
Robotic PS of 25, and the regular damage for such is reasonable. This is not a full mecha and it should not be doing as much (or more) damage in H2H than a 30' robot.


And all of this for a measly 3.4 million CR.
This has GOT to go up. 5m+ (for the original 25-50). Even with the idea that the CAF is leveraging things, nothing else is insanely cheap so why would this one specific item get a huge cost savings and literally nothing else get the same price break? That makes less than no sense.


And while Phase World has tech that is slightly better than Rifts Earth. Its not much better, especially in weapons and armor. This is the CAF, not one of the Elder Races. This suit, as presented literally outclasses every other suit in its category in every single way...and costs less to boot. Like I said, it was broken six ways to Sunday and a munckins dream previously. It was things like this exact item that people point to when they claim that Phase World is over powered, broken and what ever other adjective they use.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by dreicunan »

That is quite the nerf. I assume based on those standards that you also feel that the ground pounder and the Kreeghor armor is in need of nerfing as well? They are also in the 400 mdc range for main body, after all, and they have weapons that were pretty high up there in damage as well.

I did manage to find an old e-mail with a note about it. We dropped the laser damage to 1d4x10 and halved the range. The PB was dropped to 2d4x10 with 3000ft range (same damage but less range than the ground pounders main gun). We assumed the grenades thing was a typo and had it hold 20. We also had it cost 8 million, twice the cost of the ground pounder. Since we didn't say anything about it, I assume that we left the gravity guns as is. We left the stealth system intact. After all, you had to either be moving in a straight line (in our modified rules, moving without changing speed) or standing still to use it, so apart from setting up an ambush or some incredible math on intercepting a vessel you weren't going to be getting much more than the -1 to strike to your opponents.

Regarding shield penetration, we clarified that it only allowed the armor to pass through, not opening holes for weapons or anything like that. I suppose part of the reason that we didn't see it as a big deal normally was that with our movement rules in space it took a fair bit of planning to actually make use of that feature without going splat on the ship once you got through.

Interesting to see how peoples views differ. We always found the Battleram attack robot to be one of the few combat robots with mdc that made sense, for example, but I've heard others claim that it was just ludicrously overarmored.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by DhAkael »

-sigh-
One persons munchkin is another person's reasonable ballance.
I took over a MONTH working on something from another i/p (a manga in fact) which was UNBELIEVABLY powered up and tweaked it to moderate levels. It still is about on-par with a Battleram which if you think about it is actually inferior to the updated VF-1 Valkyries (yeah yeah yeah I know; different setting but same game system. Work with me here). So honestly, enough already... you don't like something then don't use it. Otherwise quit bleating about "OH IT'S SO OVERPOWERED!" Look at South Am 2... now that's munchkin.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

dreicunan wrote:That is quite the nerf. I assume based on those standards that you also feel that the ground pounder and the Kreeghor armor is in need of nerfing as well? They are also in the 400 mdc range for main body, after all, and they have weapons that were pretty high up there in damage as well.

I would cut down all the Power Armor in the first book. IMHO its all insanely over powered compared to everything else published before or after.
My theory is that if you have 50+ suits of power armor in the game you get a fairly solid 'base line' of what is considered 'light power armor' 'medium power armor' 'heavy power armor' etc. as well as what the stats of such suits will be. There will some variations of course, but in general I assume that absent some unique feature (chromium for example) that the stats will be +/- 15% or less of the norm.
When you have one or two suits that show up with stats that are +100% or more of the norm in multiple areas it tends to raise red flags.

The Ground Pounder (even though I feel that it itself is broken) though helps exemplify why the Silverhawk is so badly written.
It is "Big and solid looking, the ground pounder is designed to soak up a lot of punishment." at 450
but at 420 "The Silverhaw is a compromise between the desire for firepower and heavy armor and the need for speed and maneuverability"

There is no "compromise" though if it has almost as much MDC and just as much firepower.

Like I said, the Silverhawk is supposedly a fast and nimble compromise unit... but its more powerful than any other nations heavy line units?

dreicunan wrote:I did manage to find an old e-mail with a note about it. We dropped the laser damage to 1d4x10 and halved the range. The PB was dropped to 2d4x10 with 3000ft range (same damage but less range than the ground pounders main gun). We assumed the grenades thing was a typo and had it hold 20. We also had it cost 8 million, twice the cost of the ground pounder. Since we didn't say anything about it, I assume that we left the gravity guns as is. We left the stealth system intact. After all, you had to either be moving in a straight line (in our modified rules, moving without changing speed) or standing still to use it, so apart from setting up an ambush or some incredible math on intercepting a vessel you weren't going to be getting much more than the -1 to strike to your opponents.

Regarding shield penetration, we clarified that it only allowed the armor to pass through, not opening holes for weapons or anything like that. I suppose part of the reason that we didn't see it as a big deal normally was that with our movement rules in space it took a fair bit of planning to actually make use of that feature without going splat on the ship once you got through.

Interesting to see how peoples views differ. We always found the Battleram attack robot to be one of the few combat robots with mdc that made sense, for example, but I've heard others claim that it was just ludicrously overarmored.

I'm in the OP camp for the Battleram.
But that's simply because the problem is that if we want to have mecha be durable on that scale, we need to have everything scale up that way, not just one single outlier.
And then we get into the problem with armor scaling up indefinitely but weapons capping out and then you end up with a variation of the "I throw myself on the grenade, its only SDC" problem.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Nightmask »

I can't believe anyone would complain about the technology for a setting that's explicitly centuries ahead of Rifts Earth and SHOULD be much more powerful as being 'too powerful' and nerf it so it's no better than Rifts Earth, particularly one of the main power armors for a mature galaxy-spanning empire. It SHOULD be massively more powerful in comparison, just like Rifts tech ending up on Heroes Unlimited Earth should be terrifyingly powerful in comparison due to how astoundingly advanced it is.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

Nightmask wrote:I can't believe anyone would complain about the technology for a setting that's explicitly centuries ahead of Rifts Earth and SHOULD be much more powerful as being 'too powerful' and nerf it so it's no better than Rifts Earth, particularly one of the main power armors for a mature galaxy-spanning empire. It SHOULD be massively more powerful in comparison, just like Rifts tech ending up on Heroes Unlimited Earth should be terrifyingly powerful in comparison due to how astoundingly advanced it is.

I would buy that argument...
...if the rest of the phase world tech worked like that.
But when you have two or three pieces of tech in the galaxy that are super tech, and then everything else in all the phase world books is the same tech level as rifts, or just a bit better...
Then yeah, it fails the sniff test.
Especially when people like the Naruni and Kittani don't get that super tech, and have worse tech than these people.
By this logic, no one should have better power armor or weapons than Naruni.
No One.
They have been doing this for thousands of years, and they steal and copy anyone elses technology...
...so their weapons and armor should be as good, or better than any other commercially available system.
But they aren't which presents a HUGE credibility problem.

The other thing that I have issues with is the "centuries ahead" thing.
This stuff isn't centuries ahead. Or if it is, then 'centuries' means nothing.
The only thing that they are ahead in is that they have gravity tech.
Because look at the "Golden Age" vs our world. A century ahead... and its computers were worse. But they did have MDC.
So the claim that "Centuries ahead" must mean "better than anything else, in every other way" doesn't fly with me.
Especially when, as the books have ALSO pointed out that Rifts has spent the last 300 years spending all of its time on R&D of weapons technology, and with the Rifts they have access to a lot of people and devices from other worlds that have been incorporated into said R&D programs.

Now if this were something like GURPS there would be an easy solution with the TL system.
You just slap different TLs on things and use TL modifiers and different TLs get access to different tech.
But they don't have something like that in Palladium, and with out going through and rewriting the system from scratch to implement something like that its not going to happen. It would be nice, just like it would be nice to get a better scaling for infantry/power armor/ vehicular/ mecha/ ship/ emplacement scale things. But I am not really interested in writing a brand new game, writing up copies of the rules for said game, then distributing those rules to all my players so that I can run games in the setting.
If I wanted to do that I would just play in a game setting that already had such rules already set up and just skin it in Rifts.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

eliakon wrote:I would buy that argument...
...if the rest of the phase world tech worked like that.
But when you have two or three pieces of tech in the galaxy that are super tech, and then everything else in all the phase world books is the same tech level as rifts, or just a bit better...
Then yeah, it fails the sniff test.
Especially when people like the Naruni and Kittani don't get that super tech, and have worse tech than these people.
By this logic, no one should have better power armor or weapons than Naruni.
No One.
They have been doing this for thousands of years, and they steal and copy anyone elses technology...
...so their weapons and armor should be as good, or better than any other commercially available system.
But they aren't which presents a HUGE credibility problem.

Naruni stagnates technologically, as they are now an economic entity. Others will come up with something.
eliakon wrote:The other thing that I have issues with is the "centuries ahead" thing.
This stuff isn't centuries ahead. Or if it is, then 'centuries' means nothing.
The only thing that they are ahead in is that they have gravity tech.
Because look at the "Golden Age" vs our world. A century ahead... and its computers were worse. But they did have MDC.
So the claim that "Centuries ahead" must mean "better than anything else, in every other way" doesn't fly with me.
Especially when, as the books have ALSO pointed out that Rifts has spent the last 300 years spending all of its time on R&D of weapons technology, and with the Rifts they have access to a lot of people and devices from other worlds that have been incorporated into said R&D programs.

Far more tech advancement than just gravity tech. Do not play like high-tech is not all around. If some GMs want to limit some tech, on some worlds (to play the low-tech end), then that is up to them.

I thought that lasers had increased range in space, anyways.



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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:The other thing that I have issues with is the "centuries ahead" thing.
This stuff isn't centuries ahead. Or if it is, then 'centuries' means nothing.
The only thing that they are ahead in is that they have gravity tech.
Because look at the "Golden Age" vs our world. A century ahead... and its computers were worse. But they did have MDC.
So the claim that "Centuries ahead" must mean "better than anything else, in every other way" doesn't fly with me.
Especially when, as the books have ALSO pointed out that Rifts has spent the last 300 years spending all of its time on R&D of weapons technology, and with the Rifts they have access to a lot of people and devices from other worlds that have been incorporated into said R&D programs.

Far more tech advancement than just gravity tech. Do not play like high-tech is not all around. If some GMs want to limit some tech, on some worlds (to play the low-tech end), then that is up to them.

I thought that lasers had increased range in space, anyways.



Cr'Imson

*sigh*
Okay, I will be excruciatingly specific here
Their computers are only slightly better than Rifts computers
Their AI technology is no better (and possibly worse)
Their Nanotech (other than the T'zee) is WORSE
Their material technology is no better (for all their tech they can't replicate Chromium for instance)
Their force field technology is worse (Rifts Earth has FF tech... which is found in space ships... but personal shields are lacking)
Their explosives technology is no better
They do have somewhat better sensor technology, but it isn't vastly better
Rifts stealth tech is better
Rifts has developed several advanced technologies that we do not see in use in the 3Gs (Gelfs, ion weapons that can nock out electronics, cloaking devices, EMP weapons, Psynetics and other psi-tech, nanite weapons, Chromium, sonic weapons, traction drives, laser blades... the list goes on and on)

The tech of the 3gs is good. I will give it that.
It is mature, stable, and there is a full infrastructure available.
But it is not miracle tech, nor is it some how vastly superior to the tech of Rifts earth.
The evidence from the books suggests that there is a point of diminishing returns on technology therefore. That you reach a plateau of advancement and that from there any improvement will be incremental if at all. The 3Gs reached that Plateau centuries ago and have been slowly refining their technology bit by bit as they engage in a leisurely hyper-political cold war where politics and budgets are explicitly said to be driving concerns. Rifts Earth has been racing to that Plateau pell-mell and exploring every possible route and path to it in an effort to survive.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

eliakon wrote:*sigh*
Okay, I will be excruciatingly specific here

War breeds innovation. That is why Naruni still attempts to gain better footing on Rifts Earth. They know that bits of better tech may be had. It is also why we see "OP" type stuff appear nearly everywhere in 3G, but only in bits and pieces and usually in conflict areas.

Can not fight an enemy that has overwhelmingly powerful shield-tech? Develop a system that allows for "small" PA to slip through and take/destroy enemy ships from the inside, but for cries of "OP! They can hit me now! OP!!!".



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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:*sigh*
Okay, I will be excruciatingly specific here

War breeds innovation. That is why Naruni still attempts to gain better footing on Rifts Earth. They know that bits of better tech may be had. It is also why we see "OP" type stuff appear nearly everywhere in 3G, but only in bits and pieces and usually in conflict areas.

Can not fight an enemy that has overwhelmingly powerful shield-tech? Develop a system that allows for "small" PA to slip through and take/destroy enemy ships from the inside, but for cries of "OP! They can hit me now! OP!!!".



Cr'Imson

What I am saying is that it makes less than zero sense.
The claim is that a professional military, has developed a piece of technology that allows small units to pass through shields in an overwhelmingly shield based space force...
...but that in the centuries since this was invented they have not used the technology in any other way other than on one single suit of power armor?

What sort of idiots are running the CCW? And how are they still alive? How do they manage to do anything and still breathe at the same time?

-This technology is basically a "1HK" for ship killing. Slap this on a cruise missile, put stealth on said missile, and say good by to entire frigates at a go.
-This technology is screaming to be used by their fighters, their other power armors, all sorts of other uses... but its not.
-This technology is thought so little of that it is sold commercially so its not classified or restricted...
-And yet, not a single other force in the Megaverse has thought "hey you know what... this is a heavily shield intensive place, lets buy a Silverhawk and reverse engineer that shield piercing device so we can pop our armor through shields like they do to us."

THAT is why I say that the device strains credulity.
Because it is a gimmicky plot device that appears in one, super powerful suit that has not just this one gimmick but MANY such things.

Now if they were described as a new invention, or an experimental device, or a secret device or there is a design limitation or something? Yeah I could buy that.
But this is supposedly a mass produced, fully mature, generic technology that is not even export controlled... but only the one super powerful PA uses it? Yeah, not buying it.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

eliakon wrote:What I am saying is that it makes less than zero sense.
The claim is that a professional military, has developed a piece of technology that allows small units to pass through shields in an overwhelmingly shield based space force...
...but that in the centuries since this was invented they have not used the technology in any other way other than on one single suit of power armor?

What sort of idiots are running the CCW? And how are they still alive? How do they manage to do anything and still breathe at the same time?

-This technology is basically a "1HK" for ship killing. Slap this on a cruise missile, put stealth on said missile, and say good by to entire frigates at a go.
-This technology is screaming to be used by their fighters, their other power armors, all sorts of other uses... but its not.
-This technology is thought so little of that it is sold commercially so its not classified or restricted...
-And yet, not a single other force in the Megaverse has thought "hey you know what... this is a heavily shield intensive place, lets buy a Silverhawk and reverse engineer that shield piercing device so we can pop our armor through shields like they do to us."

THAT is why I say that the device strains credulity.
Because it is a gimmicky plot device that appears in one, super powerful suit that has not just this one gimmick but MANY such things.

Now if they were described as a new invention, or an experimental device, or a secret device or there is a design limitation or something? Yeah I could buy that.
But this is supposedly a mass produced, fully mature, generic technology that is not even export controlled... but only the one super powerful PA uses it? Yeah, not buying it.

Yeah, that is where stagnation comes in. How often is it really used? Would this build-up of newish tech cause conflict? Are they asking for it?



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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:What I am saying is that it makes less than zero sense.
The claim is that a professional military, has developed a piece of technology that allows small units to pass through shields in an overwhelmingly shield based space force...
...but that in the centuries since this was invented they have not used the technology in any other way other than on one single suit of power armor?

What sort of idiots are running the CCW? And how are they still alive? How do they manage to do anything and still breathe at the same time?

-This technology is basically a "1HK" for ship killing. Slap this on a cruise missile, put stealth on said missile, and say good by to entire frigates at a go.
-This technology is screaming to be used by their fighters, their other power armors, all sorts of other uses... but its not.
-This technology is thought so little of that it is sold commercially so its not classified or restricted...
-And yet, not a single other force in the Megaverse has thought "hey you know what... this is a heavily shield intensive place, lets buy a Silverhawk and reverse engineer that shield piercing device so we can pop our armor through shields like they do to us."

THAT is why I say that the device strains credulity.
Because it is a gimmicky plot device that appears in one, super powerful suit that has not just this one gimmick but MANY such things.

Now if they were described as a new invention, or an experimental device, or a secret device or there is a design limitation or something? Yeah I could buy that.
But this is supposedly a mass produced, fully mature, generic technology that is not even export controlled... but only the one super powerful PA uses it? Yeah, not buying it.

Yeah, that is where stagnation comes in. How often is it really used? Would this build-up of newish tech cause conflict? Are they asking for it?



Cr'Imson

That's my point.
1) You can't have both stagnentation to the point that new technology is never used AND have technology advance to outpace the rest of the Megaverse.
Its sort of one or the other.
2)Not to mention the idea that "well, this amazing device exists because there is a specific niche that it needs to fill, and they would R&D until they found a way to fill it" and the idea "but no one will use that tech to fill the niche because everyone else for some reason figures that hey... its not valuable."
3)Its not newish tech, this is supposed to be pretty longstanding tech. Which, in fact, is the reason that the defenders of it here are justifying its extreme stats... that it has a century improvements behind it. Which, again run counter to the idea of 'but the tech is so new that no one has figured out any possible way to use it, or drawn up strategies or anything so its just a toy."

The basic premises behind this device don't stand up to the slightest scruitiny because the premises are
1) there is a need to defeat starship shields
2) getting past starship shields for power armor is a super valuable tactic that allows people to win wars
3) But in the last century on the CCW has realized this, and done anything about it
4) the CCW after realizing this did an R&D program to develop a new technology to defeat shields
5) the CCW only uses this technology on one suit of power armor
6) the CCW sells this technology freely on the open market because apparently its not classified, and their combat gear isn't restricted in any way, shape, or form

Those do not form a logical stance of any sort.
But they are what we get from the evidence.
There is nothing here that says "there is stagnentation" there is nothing here that says "this is newish" (I don't call "over a century" new btw), there is nothing that says "no one has figured out how to properly use this"... what there is, to me, is "we want to make a super suit of armor that is amazingly more awesome than anything else, so we are going to give it these cool features that can't be found anywhere else"
Which is, to me, why the Silver Hawk is technologically superior to any power armor before or since in multiple categories... even other phase world suits...
...which, again, demonstrates that it is not an issue of "phase world tech is better" but "the Silver Hawk is better"
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

eliakon wrote:There is nothing here that says "there is stagnentation" there is nothing here that says "this is newish" (I don't call "over a century" new btw), there is nothing that says "no one has figured out how to properly use this"...

Then have an existing faction pirate the tech, or create one that has.
eliakon wrote:-This technology is screaming to be used by their fighters, their other power armors, all sorts of other uses... but its not.

I would limit it to PA, for now (force others to commit resources).
eliakon wrote:-This technology is thought so little of that it is sold commercially so its not classified or restricted...

Commercialized tech is even better, easier on R&D if more than one can be used.
eliakon wrote:-And yet, not a single other force in the Megaverse has thought "hey you know what... this is a heavily shield intensive place, lets buy a Silverhawk and reverse engineer that shield piercing device so we can pop our armor through shields like they do to us."

You insult Tech-Based O.C.C.s everywhere. Also see Phase World, pg. 130 - Robots and Power Armor. I would argue that it is not really some super-rare tech, though it is limited, for now.



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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

eliakon wrote:That's my point.
1) You can't have both stagnentation to the point that new technology is never used AND have technology advance to outpace the rest of the Megaverse.
Its sort of one or the other.
2)Not to mention the idea that "well, this amazing device exists because there is a specific niche that it needs to fill, and they would R&D until they found a way to fill it" and the idea "but no one will use that tech to fill the niche because everyone else for some reason figures that hey... its not valuable."
3)Its not newish tech, this is supposed to be pretty longstanding tech. Which, in fact, is the reason that the defenders of it here are justifying its extreme stats... that it has a century improvements behind it. Which, again run counter to the idea of 'but the tech is so new that no one has figured out any possible way to use it, or drawn up strategies or anything so its just a toy."

The basic premises behind this device don't stand up to the slightest scruitiny because the premises are
1) there is a need to defeat starship shields
2) getting past starship shields for power armor is a super valuable tactic that allows people to win wars
3) But in the last century on the CCW has realized this, and done anything about it
4) the CCW after realizing this did an R&D program to develop a new technology to defeat shields
5) the CCW only uses this technology on one suit of power armor
6) the CCW sells this technology freely on the open market because apparently its not classified, and their combat gear isn't restricted in any way, shape, or form

Those do not form a logical stance of any sort.
But they are what we get from the evidence.
There is nothing here that says "there is stagnentation" there is nothing here that says "this is newish" (I don't call "over a century" new btw), there is nothing that says "no one has figured out how to properly use this"... what there is, to me, is "we want to make a super suit of armor that is amazingly more awesome than anything else, so we are going to give it these cool features that can't be found anywhere else"
Which is, to me, why the Silver Hawk is technologically superior to any power armor before or since in multiple categories... even other phase world suits...
...which, again, demonstrates that it is not an issue of "phase world tech is better" but "the Silver Hawk is better"

Why would anyone produce tech that they know will be used against them? Other than the CCW using it as a cold war inducing, stall tactic that now approaches stagnation? Because who is really going to start a long-term conflict with them while they have such tech in widespread use in their own controlled space?

Maybe if someone can develop a new type of hardened shield, something that can not be countered so easily. Not like something like that could be found on Rifts Earth, right? (see Mechanoids and enter Naruni, who will not spread this bit of CCW tech without first having a counter to it themselves)

Besides, 3G tech vs. Rifts Earth tech is far better (taking both in whole). As it stands, Rifts Space is laughable, though Rifts Earth does have a few bits of tech that could be taken.



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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:There is nothing here that says "there is stagnentation" there is nothing here that says "this is newish" (I don't call "over a century" new btw), there is nothing that says "no one has figured out how to properly use this"...

Then have an existing faction pirate the tech, or create one that has.

Your missing the point here.
My point isn't that I can go through and rewrite the game to make the tech make sense.
My point is that, as written, the tech doesn't make sense in the game.

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:-This technology is screaming to be used by their fighters, their other power armors, all sorts of other uses... but its not.

I would limit it to PA, for now (force others to commit resources).

Why?
No why?
You have the greatest anti-ship technology since they started putting airplanes on aircraft carriers...
...and you don't want to use it?

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:-This technology is thought so little of that it is sold commercially so its not classified or restricted...

Commercialized tech is even better, easier on R&D if more than one can be used.

Again your missing my point.
This tech is sold openly to anyone that wants it.
Its not controlled in any way.
No export controls, no "suits sold to non-military forces have the shield system removed"
Nothing
I wasn't Commercial R&D that made it, we don't know who did that. But now that it is here, they are selling the device, openly on the open market to anyone with the cash.
THAT is my point.

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:-And yet, not a single other force in the Megaverse has thought "hey you know what... this is a heavily shield intensive place, lets buy a Silverhawk and reverse engineer that shield piercing device so we can pop our armor through shields like they do to us."

You insult Tech-Based O.C.C.s everywhere. Also see Phase World, pg. 130 - Robots and Power Armor. I would argue that it is not really some super-rare tech, though it is limited, for now.
Cr'Imson

No, I am not 'insulting' any one.
Yes, a PC can do something with this.
That still doesn't change the fact that as of right now, no there is not a single canon force in the entire Megaverse that has had that thought. There are how many navies in the 3Gs? And not a single one of them has bothered to add this device to their arsenal? Really?
And 130 makes my case FOR me. The space time distorter is a special feature of THIS armor, not of CCW fighter and power armor assaults in general.


Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:That's my point.
1) You can't have both stagnentation to the point that new technology is never used AND have technology advance to outpace the rest of the Megaverse.
Its sort of one or the other.
2)Not to mention the idea that "well, this amazing device exists because there is a specific niche that it needs to fill, and they would R&D until they found a way to fill it" and the idea "but no one will use that tech to fill the niche because everyone else for some reason figures that hey... its not valuable."
3)Its not newish tech, this is supposed to be pretty longstanding tech. Which, in fact, is the reason that the defenders of it here are justifying its extreme stats... that it has a century improvements behind it. Which, again run counter to the idea of 'but the tech is so new that no one has figured out any possible way to use it, or drawn up strategies or anything so its just a toy."

The basic premises behind this device don't stand up to the slightest scruitiny because the premises are
1) there is a need to defeat starship shields
2) getting past starship shields for power armor is a super valuable tactic that allows people to win wars
3) But in the last century on the CCW has realized this, and done anything about it
4) the CCW after realizing this did an R&D program to develop a new technology to defeat shields
5) the CCW only uses this technology on one suit of power armor
6) the CCW sells this technology freely on the open market because apparently its not classified, and their combat gear isn't restricted in any way, shape, or form

Those do not form a logical stance of any sort.
But they are what we get from the evidence.
There is nothing here that says "there is stagnentation" there is nothing here that says "this is newish" (I don't call "over a century" new btw), there is nothing that says "no one has figured out how to properly use this"... what there is, to me, is "we want to make a super suit of armor that is amazingly more awesome than anything else, so we are going to give it these cool features that can't be found anywhere else"
Which is, to me, why the Silver Hawk is technologically superior to any power armor before or since in multiple categories... even other phase world suits...
...which, again, demonstrates that it is not an issue of "phase world tech is better" but "the Silver Hawk is better"

Why would anyone produce tech that they know will be used against them?

Ask the CCW who sell their space-time shield disrupters on the open market.
Cr'Imson wrote: Other than the CCW using it as a cold war inducing, stall tactic that now approaches stagnation? Because who is really going to start a long-term conflict with them while they have such tech in widespread use in their own controlled space?

Well, since it didn't work and they have had wars in that century?
And again, its NOT a stall tactic to give away the technology to everyone nor to have the tech but not use it. That's not how stalling works.
If they were trying to use this as a stall tactic then they would be keeping the tech highly proprietary. Then only they have it. In this scenario no one wants to start a long-term conflict because the CCS has the super-weapon (shield penetrators) and no one else wants to risk a general war until they can deal with it.
By giving the tech to all and sundry they have made it tactically irrelevant because everyone has the tech so everyone is equally affected by it. In fact it hurts the CCW more than it hurts their main foes (the TGE) because the CCW is more casualty adverse than the TGE, and thus the TGE gets a much better return on investment for destroying capital ships than the CCW does, and the TGE is less fond of large fleets with heavy ships, so smaller fleets with better ship killing potential but less planet threatening one is better doctrine for them. (Not that this matters because for some insane reason the TGE is to stupid to use this technology)


Cr'Imson wrote:Maybe if someone can develop a new type of hardened shield, something that can not be countered so easily. Not like something like that could be found on Rifts Earth, right? (see Mechanoids and enter Naruni, who will not spread this bit of CCW tech without first having a counter to it themselves)

You do realize that Naruni force fields ARE 3G tech right? That this will go through a Naruni field just as easily?
It might be stopped by a Mechanoid shield...maybe, if the GM wants it to be.

Cr'Imson wrote:Besides, 3G tech vs. Rifts Earth tech is far better (taking both in whole). As it stands, Rifts Space is laughable, though Rifts Earth does have a few bits of tech that could be taken.

The comparison isn't "RRfts Space vs 3Gs" though.
Its Rifts Earth vs 3Gs.
The people complaining were complaining that I was comparing the tech of Rifts Earth to the 3Gs. So trying to use a different, lower, baseline to demonstrate why Earth is weaker doesn't fly.
as a whole 3Gs tech is only marginally better than Rifts Earth tech, and even then only in some areas.
In some areas Rifts Earth is the equal to the 3Gs
And in some areas Rifts Earth is superior to the 3Gs.
So, once again I say "The 3Gs are not centuries ahead of Rifts Earth in all their technology AND one should be careful on what that means anyway because look at Golden Age of Man technology and Triax for how little "centuries ahead" really means"
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:-This technology is screaming to be used by their fighters, their other power armors, all sorts of other uses... but its not.

I would limit it to PA, for now (force others to commit resources).

Why?
No why?
You have the greatest anti-ship technology since they started putting airplanes on aircraft carriers...
...and you don't want to use it?

Comes down to time and resources (R&D). Why bother with further development when no one wants to touch this tech? large ships usually do not come close enough to use the tech effectively. R&D to fit it on a small assault shuttle? May be useful. R&D to fit it on a dreadnought? When would it be useful, other than vs. a shielded planet? Would anyone really want to risk a dreadnought by getting that close?



eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:-This technology is thought so little of that it is sold commercially so its not classified or restricted...

Commercialized tech is even better, easier on R&D if more than one can be used.

Again your missing my point.
This tech is sold openly to anyone that wants it.
Its not controlled in any way.
No export controls, no "suits sold to non-military forces have the shield system removed"
Nothing

Yet, no one is willing to touch it.
eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:-And yet, not a single other force in the Megaverse has thought "hey you know what... this is a heavily shield intensive place, lets buy a Silverhawk and reverse engineer that shield piercing device so we can pop our armor through shields like they do to us."

You insult Tech-Based O.C.C.s everywhere. Also see Phase World, pg. 130 - Robots and Power Armor. I would argue that it is not really some super-rare tech, though it is limited, for now.
Cr'Imson

No, I am not 'insulting' any one.
Yes, a PC can do something with this.
That still doesn't change the fact that as of right now, no there is not a single canon force in the entire Megaverse that has had that thought. There are how many navies in the 3Gs? And not a single one of them has bothered to add this device to their arsenal? Really?
And 130 makes my case FOR me. The space time distorter is a special feature of THIS armor, not of CCW fighter and power armor assaults in general.

eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote: Other than the CCW using it as a cold war inducing, stall tactic that now approaches stagnation? Because who is really going to start a long-term conflict with them while they have such tech in widespread use in their own controlled space?

Well, since it didn't work and they have had wars in that century?
And again, its NOT a stall tactic to give away the technology to everyone nor to have the tech but not use it. That's not how stalling works.

Suppressing an uprising on Planet X is not war. Chasing off pirates is not war. Having TGE ships lob a few missiles at you before they turn and run is not war. TGE is being pushed back, both on an external and internal level, and they have no choice but to fall back when it comes to the CCW.
eliakon wrote:If they were trying to use this as a stall tactic then they would be keeping the tech highly proprietary. Then only they have it. In this scenario no one wants to start a long-term conflict because the CCS has the super-weapon (shield penetrators) and no one else wants to risk a general war until they can deal with it.
By giving the tech to all and sundry they have made it tactically irrelevant because everyone has the tech so everyone is equally affected by it. In fact it hurts the CCW more than it hurts their main foes (the TGE) because the CCW is more casualty adverse than the TGE, and thus the TGE gets a much better return on investment for destroying capital ships than the CCW does, and the TGE is less fond of large fleets with heavy ships, so smaller fleets with better ship killing potential but less planet threatening one is better doctrine for them. (Not that this matters because for some insane reason the TGE is to stupid to use this technology)

Works great as a stall tactic. Not much conflict within the CCW so who would care if this tech spreads there, other than CCW enemies that would attack but for this tech? UWW do not need it. The TGE are not to stupid to use it, but rather smart enough not to allow this tech to spread within areas that they control. Use this CCW tech and allow all systems that want to break away from TGE control to use it as well, no thanks.
eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote:Maybe if someone can develop a new type of hardened shield, something that can not be countered so easily. Not like something like that could be found on Rifts Earth, right? (see Mechanoids and enter Naruni, who will not spread this bit of CCW tech without first having a counter to it themselves)

You do realize that Naruni force fields ARE 3G tech right? That this will go through a Naruni field just as easily?
It might be stopped by a Mechanoid shield...maybe, if the GM wants it to be.

Yes, maybe. However, would it be an automatic "this anti-shield tech works on all shields", or would some R&D be required first?
eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote:Besides, 3G tech vs. Rifts Earth tech is far better (taking both in whole). As it stands, Rifts Space is laughable, though Rifts Earth does have a few bits of tech that could be taken.

The comparison isn't "Rifts Space vs 3Gs" though.
Its Rifts Earth vs 3Gs.

eliakon wrote:*sigh*
Okay, I will be excruciatingly specific here
Their computers are only slightly better than Rifts computers
Their AI technology is no better (and possibly worse)
Their Nanotech (other than the T'zee) is WORSE
Their material technology is no better (for all their tech they can't replicate Chromium for instance)
Their force field technology is worse (Rifts Earth has FF tech... which is found in space ships... but personal shields are lacking)
Their explosives technology is no better
They do have somewhat better sensor technology, but it isn't vastly better
Rifts stealth tech is better
Rifts has developed several advanced technologies that we do not see in use in the 3Gs (Gelfs, ion weapons that can nock out electronics, cloaking devices, EMP weapons, Psynetics and other psi-tech, nanite weapons, Chromium, sonic weapons, traction drives, laser blades... the list goes on and on)

(Emphasis mine) - Double standard argument.



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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:-This technology is screaming to be used by their fighters, their other power armors, all sorts of other uses... but its not.

I would limit it to PA, for now (force others to commit resources).

Why?
No why?
You have the greatest anti-ship technology since they started putting airplanes on aircraft carriers...
...and you don't want to use it?

Comes down to time and resources (R&D). Why bother with further development when no one wants to touch this tech? large ships usually do not come close enough to use the tech effectively. R&D to fit it on a small assault shuttle? May be useful. R&D to fit it on a dreadnought? When would it be useful, other than vs. a shielded planet? Would anyone really want to risk a dreadnought by getting that close?

Again, that's the wrong question.
The question is "Why does no one want to touch this tech?"
That's my question. We have one of the greatest tools for space warfare since ever... one that is the cornerstone of the main power armor of the CCW...
...but no one else uses it at all and the CCW only uses it on this one armor and no where else?
Like I said, this tech, as written, could be used quite effectively for assault shuttles, other power armor, fighters, cruise missiles, just off the top of my head, of which only assault shuttles and maybe fighters would possibly require any R&D since everything else is already PA sized.
But nope.
Not a thing.
Almost as if the technology only exists for the sole purpose of making the Silver Hawk amazing.




Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:-This technology is thought so little of that it is sold commercially so its not classified or restricted...

Commercialized tech is even better, easier on R&D if more than one can be used.

Again your missing my point.
This tech is sold openly to anyone that wants it.
Its not controlled in any way.
No export controls, no "suits sold to non-military forces have the shield system removed"
Nothing

Yet, no one is willing to touch it.

Correct.
That is my entire point.
That no one is touching it is the whole problem here.
That it is NOT a rational technology added because it makes sense.
It was added simply to make the Silver Hawk awesome, super powerful, and better than any other power armor.
And to me that is a bad reason to make a piece of technology.

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:-And yet, not a single other force in the Megaverse has thought "hey you know what... this is a heavily shield intensive place, lets buy a Silverhawk and reverse engineer that shield piercing device so we can pop our armor through shields like they do to us."

You insult Tech-Based O.C.C.s everywhere. Also see Phase World, pg. 130 - Robots and Power Armor. I would argue that it is not really some super-rare tech, though it is limited, for now.
Cr'Imson

No, I am not 'insulting' any one.
Yes, a PC can do something with this.
That still doesn't change the fact that as of right now, no there is not a single canon force in the entire Megaverse that has had that thought. There are how many navies in the 3Gs? And not a single one of them has bothered to add this device to their arsenal? Really?
And 130 makes my case FOR me. The space time distorter is a special feature of THIS armor, not of CCW fighter and power armor assaults in general.

eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote: Other than the CCW using it as a cold war inducing, stall tactic that now approaches stagnation? Because who is really going to start a long-term conflict with them while they have such tech in widespread use in their own controlled space?

Well, since it didn't work and they have had wars in that century?
And again, its NOT a stall tactic to give away the technology to everyone nor to have the tech but not use it. That's not how stalling works.

Suppressing an uprising on Planet X is not war. Chasing off pirates is not war. Having TGE ships lob a few missiles at you before they turn and run is not war. TGE is being pushed back, both on an external and internal level, and they have no choice but to fall back when it comes to the CCW.

Citation on the TGE being pushed back please? Book and page.
And while the CCW and the TGE have not a fought a full out war in 5 centuries they have had fleet battles as recently as 20 years ago.
This suggests that
1) the TGE is not 'turning and running' (Though I am open to a book citation that says otherwise)
2) that the CCW does fight, just not full galaxy wide wars (so wars like Iraq or Vietnam and not WWII)
thus
3) that stalling has failed.
This gets worse if some of the subtext in Fleets, DB3 and the other books are taken literally...
...in that case the Silver Hawk is actually a 500+ year old design and dates back to the last war and then things get really silly.

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:If they were trying to use this as a stall tactic then they would be keeping the tech highly proprietary. Then only they have it. In this scenario no one wants to start a long-term conflict because the CCS has the super-weapon (shield penetrators) and no one else wants to risk a general war until they can deal with it.
By giving the tech to all and sundry they have made it tactically irrelevant because everyone has the tech so everyone is equally affected by it. In fact it hurts the CCW more than it hurts their main foes (the TGE) because the CCW is more casualty adverse than the TGE, and thus the TGE gets a much better return on investment for destroying capital ships than the CCW does, and the TGE is less fond of large fleets with heavy ships, so smaller fleets with better ship killing potential but less planet threatening one is better doctrine for them. (Not that this matters because for some insane reason the TGE is to stupid to use this technology)

Works great as a stall tactic. Not much conflict within the CCW so who would care if this tech spreads there, other than CCW enemies that would attack but for this tech? UWW do not need it. The TGE are not to stupid to use it, but rather smart enough not to allow this tech to spread within areas that they control. Use this CCW tech and allow all systems that want to break away from TGE control to use it as well, no thanks.

So why the heck isn't the TGE navy using this technology?
They are fine with making singularity torpedo's, they are fine with mass drivers...
...and yet they are not going to use a shield breacher? That they can just buy for petty cash?

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote:Maybe if someone can develop a new type of hardened shield, something that can not be countered so easily. Not like something like that could be found on Rifts Earth, right? (see Mechanoids and enter Naruni, who will not spread this bit of CCW tech without first having a counter to it themselves)

You do realize that Naruni force fields ARE 3G tech right? That this will go through a Naruni field just as easily?
It might be stopped by a Mechanoid shield...maybe, if the GM wants it to be.

Yes, maybe. However, would it be an automatic "this anti-shield tech works on all shields", or would some R&D be required first?

As written?
It doesn't say anything about working on just one kind of FF. The RAW it just says "special energy field designed to penetrate the force fields used by many spaceships." So the GM will have to make a call on any and all FF as they come up.

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote:Besides, 3G tech vs. Rifts Earth tech is far better (taking both in whole). As it stands, Rifts Space is laughable, though Rifts Earth does have a few bits of tech that could be taken.

The comparison isn't "Rifts Space vs 3Gs" though.
Its Rifts Earth vs 3Gs.

eliakon wrote:*sigh*
Okay, I will be excruciatingly specific here
Their computers are only slightly better than Rifts computers
Their AI technology is no better (and possibly worse)
Their Nanotech (other than the T'zee) is WORSE
Their material technology is no better (for all their tech they can't replicate Chromium for instance)
Their force field technology is worse (Rifts Earth has FF tech... which is found in space ships... but personal shields are lacking)
Their explosives technology is no better
They do have somewhat better sensor technology, but it isn't vastly better
Rifts stealth tech is better
Rifts has developed several advanced technologies that we do not see in use in the 3Gs (Gelfs, ion weapons that can nock out electronics, cloaking devices, EMP weapons, Psynetics and other psi-tech, nanite weapons, Chromium, sonic weapons, traction drives, laser blades... the list goes on and on)

(Emphasis mine) - Double standard argument.

The force field technology is on space ships in the 3Gs, it is used by Triax on mecha.
Traction Drives are a Golden Age technology and thus exists on both the planet and in orbit (since Canonically Triax, Japan, Geofront, Republicans, Tritonia, et al are all pre-rifts golden age civilizations and have access to their technology. Since Traction drives were a civilian technology the design and knowledge of it is therefore obviously available to them. Triax if nothing else since Triax was one of the drive builders!
So no, its not a double standard.
I am looking at the technology available on Rifts Earth, and the Technology found in the 3Gs...
...and I am not finding a vast difference outside of gravity tech.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

eliakon wrote:Again, that's the wrong question.
The question is "Why does no one want to touch this tech?"
That's my question. We have one of the greatest tools for space warfare since ever... one that is the cornerstone of the main power armor of the CCW...
...but no one else uses it at all and the CCW only uses it on this one armor and no where else?

Suicide would be the answer. Mutually assured destruction is no way to win a war.
eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote:Other than the CCW using it as a cold war inducing, stall tactic that now approaches stagnation? Because who is really going to start a long-term conflict with them while they have such tech in widespread use in their own controlled space?

eliakon wrote:Well, since it didn't work and they have had wars in that century?
And again, its NOT a stall tactic to give away the technology to everyone nor to have the tech but not use it. That's not how stalling works.

Cr'Imson wrote:Suppressing an uprising on Planet X is not war. Chasing off pirates is not war. Having TGE ships lob a few missiles at you before they turn and run is not war. TGE is being pushed back, both on an external and internal level, and they have no choice but to fall back when it comes to the CCW.

Citation on the TGE being pushed back please? Book and page.

Phase World - Fleets of the Three Galaxies, pg. 8 wrote:75 years ago. The fighting begins, on Axis-5, a world located between the Free World Council and the TOE. A previous treaty known as the Lanator Accords, and the fact that the Consortium is watching events there very closely, means the Kreeghor cannot slag the planet from orbit like they wish they could. Instead, they must send in conventional ground troops. The fighting there continues to this day.

This is basically the CCW telling the TGE that if they do not fight a war that could allow others to win, then the CCW is going to invade them, and the TGE can not do anything about it.
Phase World - Fleets of the Three Galaxies, pg. 8 wrote:20 years ago. The CCW/TGE war ends with victory for the Consortium of Civilized Worlds. As a result, several new worlds are liberated from the Kreeghor, sealing the TGE's lasting enmity for the CCW.

Looks like TGE are being pushed back to me.
eliakon wrote:So why the heck isn't the TGE navy using this technology?
They are fine with making singularity torpedo's, they are fine with mass drivers...
...and yet they are not going to use a shield breacher? That they can just buy for petty cash?

Why slit your own wrist when someone has already stabbed you in the back and the chest, and have you hamstrung already?
eliakon wrote:The force field technology is on space ships in the 3Gs, it is used by Triax on mecha.
Traction Drives are a Golden Age technology and thus exists on both the planet and in orbit (since Canonically Triax, Japan, Geofront, Republicans, Tritonia, et al are all pre-rifts golden age civilizations and have access to their technology. Since Traction drives were a civilian technology the design and knowledge of it is therefore obviously available to them. Triax if nothing else since Triax was one of the drive builders!

What some people have had access to in the past and what people actually have/use currently are light-years apart.



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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:Again, that's the wrong question.
The question is "Why does no one want to touch this tech?"
That's my question. We have one of the greatest tools for space warfare since ever... one that is the cornerstone of the main power armor of the CCW...
...but no one else uses it at all and the CCW only uses it on this one armor and no where else?

Suicide would be the answer. Mutually assured destruction is no way to win a war.

Ummm no.
Again this is suicide right NOW.
As it is, no one is using the tech.
Your answer is like saying "well if we all get airplanes/nukes/chemical weapons it will be a MAD situation. So we will just let the first guys to develop it have them." Nonsense.
The situation is a joke because we have a tech that is perfect for use... but no one seems to use it. Even the creators only use it to make their super armor super.

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Cr'Imson wrote:Other than the CCW using it as a cold war inducing, stall tactic that now approaches stagnation? Because who is really going to start a long-term conflict with them while they have such tech in widespread use in their own controlled space?

eliakon wrote:Well, since it didn't work and they have had wars in that century?
And again, its NOT a stall tactic to give away the technology to everyone nor to have the tech but not use it. That's not how stalling works.

Cr'Imson wrote:Suppressing an uprising on Planet X is not war. Chasing off pirates is not war. Having TGE ships lob a few missiles at you before they turn and run is not war. TGE is being pushed back, both on an external and internal level, and they have no choice but to fall back when it comes to the CCW.

Citation on the TGE being pushed back please? Book and page.

Phase World - Fleets of the Three Galaxies, pg. 8 wrote:75 years ago. The fighting begins, on Axis-5, a world located between the Free World Council and the TOE. A previous treaty known as the Lanator Accords, and the fact that the Consortium is watching events there very closely, means the Kreeghor cannot slag the planet from orbit like they wish they could. Instead, they must send in conventional ground troops. The fighting there continues to this day.

This is basically the CCW telling the TGE that if they do not fight a war that could allow others to win, then the CCW is going to invade them, and the TGE can not do anything about it.

No, the CCW is saying that if the TGE violates the Lanitor <sp?> accords that there will be consiquences.
Sort of like how in our world you cant just use nukes or chemical weapons freely.

Cr'Imson wrote:
Phase World - Fleets of the Three Galaxies, pg. 8 wrote:20 years ago. The CCW/TGE war ends with victory for the Consortium of Civilized Worlds. As a result, several new worlds are liberated from the Kreeghor, sealing the TGE's lasting enmity for the CCW.

Looks like TGE are being pushed back to me.

two problems with that
1) it is one war. ONE Losing one war does not mean the TGE is being 'pushed back' it means that they lost that particular war and got pushed back there. There is a HUGE difference between a singular event and a trend. Again your claim was that the TGE has no choice but to fall back. Which is the opposite of what happened here. The TGE did NOT 'fall back' they actually fought a war. A war fought WITH SILVERHAWKS mind you. And yes, they lost that war, but they did not simply get 'pushed back because they had no choice'
2) I thought you had just told me that the CCW had not been in any wars, and now they have been make up your mind please.

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:So why the heck isn't the TGE navy using this technology?
They are fine with making singularity torpedo's, they are fine with mass drivers...
...and yet they are not going to use a shield breacher? That they can just buy for petty cash?

Why slit your own wrist when someone has already stabbed you in the back and the chest, and have you hamstrung already?

Ummm your answer makes no sense.
No seriously it makes no sense.
How is using a weapons system slitting your own wrist? I do not see how employing a good weapon means you are slitting your own wrist.
never mind that the TGE is neither stabbed in the back, nor chest, nor hamstrung.

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:The force field technology is on space ships in the 3Gs, it is used by Triax on mecha.
Traction Drives are a Golden Age technology and thus exists on both the planet and in orbit (since Canonically Triax, Japan, Geofront, Republicans, Tritonia, et al are all pre-rifts golden age civilizations and have access to their technology. Since Traction drives were a civilian technology the design and knowledge of it is therefore obviously available to them. Triax if nothing else since Triax was one of the drive builders!

What some people have had access to in the past and what people actually have/use currently are light-years apart.

Traction drives are only useful in space...
...so its sort of not useful except in space.
Its sort of like just because they don't make space suits that we shouldn't assume they can't. Or conversely that just because the orbitals don't make convertible cars doesn't mean they don't know how. You make what you can USE. People generally don't make things that can't be used.
But I will note that Triax was launching space missions, rather regularly up until recently. So they were quite interested in space. This to me suggests that they still maintain their space technology...and since there is no hint that they kept all their technology except for traction drives I conclude that they do, indeed, know how to build traction drives.


In summation
We have the perfect technology, but for some reason no one wants to use it, except for one faction who uses it in one suit of power armor.
And the only reason is "because"
Its not cost, its not accesability, its not cultural, its not design, its not technology...
Its because even though we have several war mongering races who are actively building up military strength...they wont touch this super weapon
Its because even though the CCW has this weapon...even they wont actually use it unless they can put it on their super armor.
This is why I call BS on this tech as being anything else than a plot device to pimp out the Silver Hawk into a super suit better than anything else...
...and that is why I removed it.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Cr'Imson »

eliakon wrote:How is using a weapons system slitting your own wrist? I do not see how employing a good weapon means you are slitting your own wrist.

Why would anyone that ruled by might want to spread tech that would allow their enemies (and more importantly, their subjects/slaves) the chance to cripple/destroy almost any ship using power armor? Especially when the CCW does employ a larger number of ships than the TGE, who used to just glass enemy planets and move on but are expected/forced to bow down to some treaty. Would the Golgan Republic want to spread this tech in their space, with so many planets wanting to break away? What about Naruni and the Splugorth, would they want to help spread this tech throughout their space?
eliakon wrote:Again your claim was that the TGE has no choice but to fall back.

No. The TGE will fight, and lose vs. CCW-equipped forces. They will run if they have to, if they can, fighting only where they think that they must. They will be forced back.
eliakon wrote:We have the perfect technology, but for some reason no one wants to use it, except for one faction who uses it in one suit of power armor.
...
Its not cost, its not accessibility, its not cultural, its not design, its not technology...

Because there are no cultures built around indentured servitude/slavery?
eliakon wrote:This is why I call BS on this tech as being anything else than a plot device to pimp out the Silver Hawk into a super suit better than anything else...
...and that is why I removed it.

Opinion noted. Have fun with your game.



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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:How is using a weapons system slitting your own wrist? I do not see how employing a good weapon means you are slitting your own wrist.

Why would anyone that ruled by might want to spread tech that would allow their enemies (and more importantly, their subjects/slaves) the chance to cripple/destroy almost any ship using power armor? Especially when the CCW does employ a larger number of ships than the TGE, who used to just glass enemy planets and move on but are expected/forced to bow down to some treaty. Would the Golgan Republic want to spread this tech in their space, with so many planets wanting to break away? What about Naruni and the Splugorth, would they want to help spread this tech throughout their space?

Ummm because they are not 'spreading' the tech.
The CCW is the one spreading the tech
The TGE would be using it.
The TGE already uses technology. The argument that the TGE will not use any tech because its bad fails the logic test.
Especially since as I pointed out before the tech doesn't have to be used on power armor.
It can just as easily be used to make better missiles.
And then there is the fact that the TGE has issues with more powerful ships...

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:Again your claim was that the TGE has no choice but to fall back.

No. The TGE will fight, and lose vs. CCW-equipped forces. They will run if they have to, if they can, fighting only where they think that they must. They will be forced back.

Again, your making a totally unsupported claim.
You can like the CCW sure.
You can prefer them all you like
You can have them be the heroes and win all the fights in your game.
But that doesn't make them the better force in the actual canon.
So, once again. Do you have canon sources to back up your claim that the TGE 'has no choice but to fall back' because right now your just saying that they have to because you say they have to. That's not proof, that's an opinion.

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:We have the perfect technology, but for some reason no one wants to use it, except for one faction who uses it in one suit of power armor.
...
Its not cost, its not accessibility, its not cultural, its not design, its not technology...

Because there are no cultures built around indentured servitude/slavery?

Uhhh say what?
This is a total non sequitur.
The discussion has nothing to do with indentured servitude, it has nothing to do with slavery. Thus they have nothing at all to do with the answer.

Cr'Imson wrote:
eliakon wrote:This is why I call BS on this tech as being anything else than a plot device to pimp out the Silver Hawk into a super suit better than anything else...
...and that is why I removed it.

Opinion noted. Have fun with your game.

As I have been saying since the start.
Your the one that started this discussion by trying to argue that my decisions were based on faulty logic.
So far all I have seen is that your claims amount to "your wrong because I say your wrong"
After all this entire discussion was about why I reduced the Silver Hawk in the first place, that reason being that the stats had no logical justification in the game based on anything that anyone has been able to point to other than as far as I can see a desire to make the Silver Hawk into the best PA suit in existence at the time of its publishing.
And as I have said repeatedly that is not really a justification for anything.
Now if people can share some actual, logical reasons backed up by something from the game itself I am open to hearing it, but so far all I get is the argument that Phase World is better tech, and that the silver hawk is cool so it should be cool.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by dreicunan »

Axelmania wrote:You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Blue_Lion »

Chipenwell warmonger(think that is the SDC PA)
TW feature Giant -pilot and PA grows in size turns SDC to MDC.
TW invincibility
TW Superior invisibility
TW kinetic kill gravity rifile (endless ammo mod-create steal)
built in Phase shield-intangible
Built in phase pistols
Gravity jet pack
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by eliakon »

One suit that actually came up in a game (The pilot was a Burster)
Tostada-1
NE-X4-LH Sun Chariot Power Armor from Dimension Book 8
Upgraded the NE-F10A Light FF to a NE-F40A Heavy FF
Added the Guided Missile package to the Mini Missile Launcher and upgraded the mini missiles to guided
Added a NE-RV09 Claw to the left arm
Installed NE-28R x2
Traded out the Plasma Rifle on the left arm for a WI-NFT-1 Napalm-P Flame Thrower

Then got a TW to add
Armor of Ithan
Invisibility Simple
Shadow Meld
Added a TW Flameblade (as per the bionic implant) to the right arm)

For when you absolutely, positively have to burn down the city.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Armorlord »

Rathorc Lemenger wrote:Here's an interesting question for all of you folks: If you could soup-up/adjust any of the Power Armours in any of the Dimension Books, what would you do with what ones?

Signed,
Rathorc Lemenger.
Well, I use knock-off Silverhawks stuffed full of bionic enhancements and additional weapons/gear for the Central Alliance's Cyberhawk legion.
I mean, what else could you expect from a borg legion with that name and billing?

Beyond GM engineering like that, I'd love to see a TW tricked out Avenging Angel suit.


Side note regarding the Silverhawk: I feel its stats are in line with other items listed in that book, it is on par with other space fighters, along with the description of being a compromise being on par with that scale. That said, the pricing does not line up with fighters. The hi-laser cannon it carries alone goes for 4-8 million. Moving the decimal point over on these seems more reasonable.

Also, given my reading of CAF gear, it seems unlikely that it is commercially available, though the noted black market versions exist. This is opinion based how it and other items are described, plus how unusual some items being on the black market is.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

i've generally assumed the Silverhawk's shield penetrating system just isn't applicable to missiles.. that it has to stay "in contact" with the shields for a period of time (a few actions at least) for the system to 'tune' itself so you can get through.

since missiles can't do that (normally) it doesn't work when mounted on missiles, but you can use it on PA and Robots. and since most ships don't have interior spaces large enough to allow the CCW's robots to stomp around inside, they mainly fit it to PA. though IMO they'd probably have a class of shuttle fitted with it to deliver non-PA troops to a target as well.

i've also generally assumed the TGE does have access to the tech (from copying the CCW systems if nothing else). we really don't have much in the way of samples for the respective factions. we don't know if the CCW has used the tech on other PA, because we have no other PA for them.. just the silverhawk. though we know that are supposed to have other types. we only have a couple of starships for the TGE.. and only one shuttle, which is heavily focused on ground attack and deployment. yet that shuttle is so specialized, they have to have more around doing other things.
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by dragonfett »

glitterboy2098 wrote:i've generally assumed the Silverhawk's shield penetrating system just isn't applicable to missiles.. that it has to stay "in contact" with the shields for a period of time (a few actions at least) for the system to 'tune' itself so you can get through.

since missiles can't do that (normally) it doesn't work when mounted on missiles, but you can use it on PA and Robots. and since most ships don't have interior spaces large enough to allow the CCW's robots to stomp around inside, they mainly fit it to PA. though IMO they'd probably have a class of shuttle fitted with it to deliver non-PA troops to a target as well.

i've also generally assumed the TGE does have access to the tech (from copying the CCW systems if nothing else). we really don't have much in the way of samples for the respective factions. we don't know if the CCW has used the tech on other PA, because we have no other PA for them.. just the silverhawk. though we know that are supposed to have other types. we only have a couple of starships for the TGE.. and only one shuttle, which is heavily focused on ground attack and deployment. yet that shuttle is so specialized, they have to have more around doing other things.


Along those lines, I'm surprised that the CCW hasn't adapted the Shield Penetrating system to a troop transport that can cut a hole through the bulk head to deposit troops anywhere on a targeted ship (and the enemy ship can't just blow the boarding ship off if they've already breached the hull because that would break the seal between the two ships).
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Re: Random Thoughts 4.

Unread post by Nightmartree »

I haven't looked at the power armor you guys are discussing but

Being able to pass through shields seems like it would be a pretty good tech, apply a limiter of "needs a second to adjust" and suddenly attacks with this ability (missiles ect.) aren't going to happen. But ships can dock through force fields, soldiers can board, or more. Its also not the ONLY way to get through a shield as there are people and groups in the 3 galaxies running magic, one good technowizard teleportation platform and the proper coordinate could spell death for a lightly defended ship.

this is looking at the ability on its own merit, not as a piece of a "super" power armor.
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