Board index » MDC Worlds » Rifts®: Dimension Books

 


Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:53 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:26 pm
Posts: 9937
Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
Axelmania wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
The generally accepted definition is the star around which planets and other celestial bodies in system revolve around. This would mean, so long as you are in a solar system with a star, it would effect you. Sinse we know distant stars in the sky do not, then once you are out of it's system, it no longer will

Dat realization that the vampire intelligence Pluto (CB2p99) was probably behind the declassification of Pluto as a planet in an effort to redraw the boudnaries of the solar system so our sun's light could no longer harm vampires there so that he could build a secret outpost there.

Unknown probably made a deal with Brulyx and is amassing Reigners on that icy rock since cold prevents their decomposition, ready to rift them into Earth as needed.

This does raise the interesting question of what is the boundary of the solar system. Both gravitation and intensity are inverse squares.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 5:08 pm
  

User avatar
Megaversal® Ambassador

Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:01 am
Posts: 9012
Location: Oil Sands of Canada
Comment: Hardcore Palladium Fan
Gun Lover
Canadian eh?
It may be worth noting that the suns of other dimentions still affect vampires such as Palladium and Hades certianly seem to and are implied to have different physics to their worlds.

_________________
Subjugator wrote:
I got my first job at age 12 (maybe 11, but I think 12) and worked more or less continuously until today. I had to so I could eat properly. Doing so as a kid detracted from my educational experience, which was bad enough to begin with . . .

Gingrich is wrong.

/Sub


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:51 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 40261
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
Saitou Hajime wrote:
It may be worth noting that the suns of other dimentions still affect vampires such as Palladium and Hades certianly seem to and are implied to have different physics to their worlds.



Can the light in Hades be said to originate from a sun/star, or is it just ambient light? :-? I'm not quite sure of the sky arrangement in Hades.

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:32 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am
Posts: 10620
taalismn wrote:
Saitou Hajime wrote:
It may be worth noting that the suns of other dimentions still affect vampires such as Palladium and Hades certianly seem to and are implied to have different physics to their worlds.



Can the light in Hades be said to originate from a sun/star, or is it just ambient light? :-? I'm not quite sure of the sky arrangement in Hades.


Makes me suddenly curious about Wormwood and its light, since it's canonically in a pocket dimension I don't think it has a conventional sun for its light so maybe vampires would be perfectly safe there no matter if it were day or night.

_________________
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:49 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 40261
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
Nightmask wrote:
[

Makes me suddenly curious about Wormwood and its light, since it's canonically in a pocket dimension I don't think it has a conventional sun for its light so maybe vampires would be perfectly safe there no matter if it were day or night.



Wormwood was/is a planet...an organic planet, admittedly, but still a planet....with moons and a sun, so I'd say that it's not anything exotic in that regard.

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:29 pm
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 2228
Been a while since I read the book, anyone know where the 'pocket' dimension statement is? Pg 40 mentions "a different dimension than Rifts Earth. Whether this is a parallel dimension similar to our own or something completely is different is unknown"

I remember the multiple moons thing but I can't remember if that was canon or just Tarn's writing. Anyone know where it mentions the sun?

Makes me wonder if you were turned vamp on this world how the 'home soil' thing would work considering there isn't very much of it.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:11 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 8029
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Axelmania wrote:
Been a while since I read the book, anyone know where the 'pocket' dimension statement is? Pg 40 mentions "a different dimension than Rifts Earth. Whether this is a parallel dimension similar to our own or something completely is different is unknown"

I remember the multiple moons thing but I can't remember if that was canon or just Tarn's writing. Anyone know where it mentions the sun?

Makes me wonder if you were turned vamp on this world how the 'home soil' thing would work considering there isn't very much of it.

Hopefully you can find enough soil for you to rest in.
Otherwise it is going to really, really suck to be you.


As for the rest, I am equally curious.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:20 am
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 40261
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
Axelmania wrote:
Been a while since I read the book, anyone know where the 'pocket' dimension statement is? Pg 40 mentions "a different dimension than Rifts Earth. Whether this is a parallel dimension similar to our own or something completely is different is unknown"

I remember the multiple moons thing but I can't remember if that was canon or just Tarn's writing. Anyone know where it mentions the sun?

Makes me wonder if you were turned vamp on this world how the 'home soil' thing would work considering there isn't very much of it.


The Wormwood mini-comic, I believe, shows moons.
I'll have to dig out my copy of Wormwood, but I'm fairly certain Wormwood has a sun and a day/night cycle.
It's just that nobody seems to have spacecraft to get offworld and take a look around the local neighborhood to see if it's regular space, or celestial spheres or giant clockwork...

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:44 am
  

User avatar
Champion

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 2228
Page 9 top panel shows 3 small spheres and one large but it may be in the context of illustrating what Wormwood's lore is rather than actual events. The larger bottom panel does appear to show 2 moons in the sky when Vespers is climbing a rope on a building. Although the circle on the left could possibly be a radio dish attached to a spire.

Also appears to be stars.in the sky which makes me wonder about the pocket dimension claim.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:05 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 40261
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
Axelmania wrote:
Page 9 top panel shows 3 small spheres and one large but it may be in the context of illustrating what Wormwood's lore is rather than actual events. The larger bottom panel does appear to show 2 moons in the sky when Vespers is climbing a rope on a building. Although the circle on the left could possibly be a radio dish attached to a spire.

Also appears to be stars.in the sky which makes me wonder about the pocket dimension claim.


Pocket could be fairly large...globular cluster or galaxy-sized. Or those 'stars' could just be really big and high-flying fireflies. :P

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:00 pm
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:05 am
Posts: 20000
Location: In the Hivelands with General Jericho Holmes, taking advantage of suddenly stupid Xiticix...
Comment: At long last....I am FINALLY free of my wonderful addiction to the online Flash game "Bloons."
Well, mostly.....
In one of the Sourcebooks centered around the Phase World sector of the Rifts Multiverse, there is a Hook/Line/Sinker involving a colony that has been overrun with vampires.
The "exercise" requires the heroes to stay alive, for an extended period of time -assuming they even catch on to what's happening -until the moon colony gets around the planet and the sun shines on it (as in, the 'night' there on that moon is much longer than a terrestrial rotation, perhaps even several days long).

This outpost, IICR, is furthermore implied to be around a sun that is much weaker than Sol because the colony is snow-shrouded or extremely cold or something like that. The system might even be powered by a dwarf star, O just don;t remember.
If true, then this lends weight to the argument that the intensity of the sunlight in question does not matter to the vampire and the damage he receives.

MOST LIKELY CONCLUSION: If the star in question is the "sun" to the planet that a vampire is on, he will metaphysically take damage per the vampire damage tables should he find himself exposed to its rays. And if intensity doesn't matter because metaphysics are involved and not physics, then it shouldn't matter how far away a star is or what stage a star is in its life cycle, as long as it still gives off light.

_________________
The Kevinomicon, Book of Siembieda 3:16.

16 Blessed art Thou above all others, O COALITION STATES, beloved of Kevin;

17 For Thou art allowed to do Evil without Limit, nor do thy Enemies retaliate.

18 Thy Military be run by Fools and Dotards.

19 Yet thy Nation suffers not. Praise be unto Him that protects thee from all harm!!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:56 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am
Posts: 10620
cornholioprime wrote:
In one of the Sourcebooks centered around the Phase World sector of the Rifts Multiverse, there is a Hook/Line/Sinker involving a colony that has been overrun with vampires.
The "exercise" requires the heroes to stay alive, for an extended period of time -assuming they even catch on to what's happening -until the moon colony gets around the planet and the sun shines on it (as in, the 'night' there on that moon is much longer than a terrestrial rotation, perhaps even several days long).

This outpost, IICR, is furthermore implied to be around a sun that is much weaker than Sol because the colony is snow-shrouded or extremely cold or something like that. The system might even be powered by a dwarf star, O just don;t remember.
If true, then this lends weight to the argument that the intensity of the sunlight in question does not matter to the vampire and the damage he receives.

MOST LIKELY CONCLUSION: If the star in question is the "sun" to the planet that a vampire is on, he will metaphysically take damage per the vampire damage tables should he find himself exposed to its rays. And if intensity doesn't matter because metaphysics are involved and not physics, then it shouldn't matter how far away a star is or what stage a star is in its life cycle, as long as it still gives off light.


Except metaphysics tend to work just like regular physics, where intensity does matter instead of 'well they got hit by a photon of light full damage for them'. Metaphysics rarely have intensity not matter from what I've seen, since even from a magical standpoint exposure to more of what something's vulnerable to is going to deal more damage instead of the same.

_________________
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:22 am
  

User avatar
Monk

Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:05 am
Posts: 20000
Location: In the Hivelands with General Jericho Holmes, taking advantage of suddenly stupid Xiticix...
Comment: At long last....I am FINALLY free of my wonderful addiction to the online Flash game "Bloons."
Well, mostly.....
Nightmask wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
In one of the Sourcebooks centered around the Phase World sector of the Rifts Multiverse, there is a Hook/Line/Sinker involving a colony that has been overrun with vampires.
The "exercise" requires the heroes to stay alive, for an extended period of time -assuming they even catch on to what's happening -until the moon colony gets around the planet and the sun shines on it (as in, the 'night' there on that moon is much longer than a terrestrial rotation, perhaps even several days long).

This outpost, IICR, is furthermore implied to be around a sun that is much weaker than Sol because the colony is snow-shrouded or extremely cold or something like that. The system might even be powered by a dwarf star, O just don;t remember.
If true, then this lends weight to the argument that the intensity of the sunlight in question does not matter to the vampire and the damage he receives.

MOST LIKELY CONCLUSION: If the star in question is the "sun" to the planet that a vampire is on, he will metaphysically take damage per the vampire damage tables should he find himself exposed to its rays. And if intensity doesn't matter because metaphysics are involved and not physics, then it shouldn't matter how far away a star is or what stage a star is in its life cycle, as long as it still gives off light.


Except metaphysics tend to work just like regular physics, where intensity does matter instead of 'well they got hit by a photon of light full damage for them'. Metaphysics rarely have intensity not matter from what I've seen, since even from a magical standpoint exposure to more of what something's vulnerable to is going to deal more damage instead of the same.
Not in the case of vampires and sunlight damage. One table of damage for them and that's pretty much it.

_________________
The Kevinomicon, Book of Siembieda 3:16.

16 Blessed art Thou above all others, O COALITION STATES, beloved of Kevin;

17 For Thou art allowed to do Evil without Limit, nor do thy Enemies retaliate.

18 Thy Military be run by Fools and Dotards.

19 Yet thy Nation suffers not. Praise be unto Him that protects thee from all harm!!


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:50 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 8029
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Nightmask wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
In one of the Sourcebooks centered around the Phase World sector of the Rifts Multiverse, there is a Hook/Line/Sinker involving a colony that has been overrun with vampires.
The "exercise" requires the heroes to stay alive, for an extended period of time -assuming they even catch on to what's happening -until the moon colony gets around the planet and the sun shines on it (as in, the 'night' there on that moon is much longer than a terrestrial rotation, perhaps even several days long).

This outpost, IICR, is furthermore implied to be around a sun that is much weaker than Sol because the colony is snow-shrouded or extremely cold or something like that. The system might even be powered by a dwarf star, O just don;t remember.
If true, then this lends weight to the argument that the intensity of the sunlight in question does not matter to the vampire and the damage he receives.

MOST LIKELY CONCLUSION: If the star in question is the "sun" to the planet that a vampire is on, he will metaphysically take damage per the vampire damage tables should he find himself exposed to its rays. And if intensity doesn't matter because metaphysics are involved and not physics, then it shouldn't matter how far away a star is or what stage a star is in its life cycle, as long as it still gives off light.


Except metaphysics tend to work just like regular physics, where intensity does matter instead of 'well they got hit by a photon of light full damage for them'. Metaphysics rarely have intensity not matter from what I've seen, since even from a magical standpoint exposure to more of what something's vulnerable to is going to deal more damage instead of the same.

Magic is full of "either fully affected or not affected at all"
Unlike in normal physics where you get spectrums of effect.
Magic loves to do the "save for half damage/no damage" thing for instance.
And as others have pointed out, the only canon table for vampires has a flat damage result, with no variation.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:50 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am
Posts: 10620
cornholioprime wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
In one of the Sourcebooks centered around the Phase World sector of the Rifts Multiverse, there is a Hook/Line/Sinker involving a colony that has been overrun with vampires.
The "exercise" requires the heroes to stay alive, for an extended period of time -assuming they even catch on to what's happening -until the moon colony gets around the planet and the sun shines on it (as in, the 'night' there on that moon is much longer than a terrestrial rotation, perhaps even several days long).

This outpost, IICR, is furthermore implied to be around a sun that is much weaker than Sol because the colony is snow-shrouded or extremely cold or something like that. The system might even be powered by a dwarf star, O just don;t remember.
If true, then this lends weight to the argument that the intensity of the sunlight in question does not matter to the vampire and the damage he receives.

MOST LIKELY CONCLUSION: If the star in question is the "sun" to the planet that a vampire is on, he will metaphysically take damage per the vampire damage tables should he find himself exposed to its rays. And if intensity doesn't matter because metaphysics are involved and not physics, then it shouldn't matter how far away a star is or what stage a star is in its life cycle, as long as it still gives off light.


Except metaphysics tend to work just like regular physics, where intensity does matter instead of 'well they got hit by a photon of light full damage for them'. Metaphysics rarely have intensity not matter from what I've seen, since even from a magical standpoint exposure to more of what something's vulnerable to is going to deal more damage instead of the same.
Not in the case of vampires and sunlight damage. One table of damage for them and that's pretty much it.


Except again nowhere do the rules say anything about sunlight dealing only one value of damage no matter how intense or dim, all rules carry the underlying assumption that it's sunlight at the intensity seen on the surface of the Earth just like we have to assume rules regarding how fast something falls being based on a gravitational pull effectively equal to the surface of Earth, that the atmosphere is roughly as thick, etc. One is expressing a house rule when they claim that intensity is irrelevant and that damage applies from the surface of the sun on out then adding in another house rule for why sunlight at night from distant stars isn't just as damaging because it's still sunlight (and trying to argue 'but it's not sunlight it's starlight' is an argument that fails on its face) so why would the light from the Earth's sun while that dim deal such high levels of damage yet a distant sun not do so.

It only makes logical sense that intensity does matter and is why it simply stops dealing damage as the damage drops off with distance as it grows weaker as there's less of the damaging sunlight involved to cause harm because few things are as illogical INCLUDING from a mystical/metaphysics standpoint that a vampire sitting on the sun takes no more damage than it does on Earth and that same vampire is quick fried on Pluto where the sun can't even be told apart from any other star in the sky.

_________________
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:09 pm
  

Explorer

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
Posts: 178
Nightmask wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
In one of the Sourcebooks centered around the Phase World sector of the Rifts Multiverse, there is a Hook/Line/Sinker involving a colony that has been overrun with vampires.
The "exercise" requires the heroes to stay alive, for an extended period of time -assuming they even catch on to what's happening -until the moon colony gets around the planet and the sun shines on it (as in, the 'night' there on that moon is much longer than a terrestrial rotation, perhaps even several days long).

This outpost, IICR, is furthermore implied to be around a sun that is much weaker than Sol because the colony is snow-shrouded or extremely cold or something like that. The system might even be powered by a dwarf star, O just don;t remember.
If true, then this lends weight to the argument that the intensity of the sunlight in question does not matter to the vampire and the damage he receives.

MOST LIKELY CONCLUSION: If the star in question is the "sun" to the planet that a vampire is on, he will metaphysically take damage per the vampire damage tables should he find himself exposed to its rays. And if intensity doesn't matter because metaphysics are involved and not physics, then it shouldn't matter how far away a star is or what stage a star is in its life cycle, as long as it still gives off light.


Except metaphysics tend to work just like regular physics, where intensity does matter instead of 'well they got hit by a photon of light full damage for them'. Metaphysics rarely have intensity not matter from what I've seen, since even from a magical standpoint exposure to more of what something's vulnerable to is going to deal more damage instead of the same.
Not in the case of vampires and sunlight damage. One table of damage for them and that's pretty much it.


Except again nowhere do the rules say anything about sunlight dealing only one value of damage no matter how intense or dim, all rules carry the underlying assumption that it's sunlight at the intensity seen on the surface of the Earth just like we have to assume rules regarding how fast something falls being based on a gravitational pull effectively equal to the surface of Earth, that the atmosphere is roughly as thick, etc. One is expressing a house rule when they claim that intensity is irrelevant and that damage applies from the surface of the sun on out then adding in another house rule for why sunlight at night from distant stars isn't just as damaging because it's still sunlight (and trying to argue 'but it's not sunlight it's starlight' is an argument that fails on its face) so why would the light from the Earth's sun while that dim deal such high levels of damage yet a distant sun not do so.

It only makes logical sense that intensity does matter and is why it simply stops dealing damage as the damage drops off with distance as it grows weaker as there's less of the damaging sunlight involved to cause harm because few things are as illogical INCLUDING from a mystical/metaphysics standpoint that a vampire sitting on the sun takes no more damage than it does on Earth and that same vampire is quick fried on Pluto where the sun can't even be told apart from any other star in the sky.

So why doesn't the damage vary based on distance from the equator and time of year? While intensity clearly does matter (globe of daylight), we don't know how it matters, so anything that anyone rules is going to be a house rule. GM's just need to rule what is going to work for their games, because there ia no definitive argument to be made from canon sources.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:06 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am
Posts: 10620
dreicunan wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
In one of the Sourcebooks centered around the Phase World sector of the Rifts Multiverse, there is a Hook/Line/Sinker involving a colony that has been overrun with vampires.
The "exercise" requires the heroes to stay alive, for an extended period of time -assuming they even catch on to what's happening -until the moon colony gets around the planet and the sun shines on it (as in, the 'night' there on that moon is much longer than a terrestrial rotation, perhaps even several days long).

This outpost, IICR, is furthermore implied to be around a sun that is much weaker than Sol because the colony is snow-shrouded or extremely cold or something like that. The system might even be powered by a dwarf star, O just don;t remember.
If true, then this lends weight to the argument that the intensity of the sunlight in question does not matter to the vampire and the damage he receives.

MOST LIKELY CONCLUSION: If the star in question is the "sun" to the planet that a vampire is on, he will metaphysically take damage per the vampire damage tables should he find himself exposed to its rays. And if intensity doesn't matter because metaphysics are involved and not physics, then it shouldn't matter how far away a star is or what stage a star is in its life cycle, as long as it still gives off light.


Except metaphysics tend to work just like regular physics, where intensity does matter instead of 'well they got hit by a photon of light full damage for them'. Metaphysics rarely have intensity not matter from what I've seen, since even from a magical standpoint exposure to more of what something's vulnerable to is going to deal more damage instead of the same.
Not in the case of vampires and sunlight damage. One table of damage for them and that's pretty much it.


Except again nowhere do the rules say anything about sunlight dealing only one value of damage no matter how intense or dim, all rules carry the underlying assumption that it's sunlight at the intensity seen on the surface of the Earth just like we have to assume rules regarding how fast something falls being based on a gravitational pull effectively equal to the surface of Earth, that the atmosphere is roughly as thick, etc. One is expressing a house rule when they claim that intensity is irrelevant and that damage applies from the surface of the sun on out then adding in another house rule for why sunlight at night from distant stars isn't just as damaging because it's still sunlight (and trying to argue 'but it's not sunlight it's starlight' is an argument that fails on its face) so why would the light from the Earth's sun while that dim deal such high levels of damage yet a distant sun not do so.

It only makes logical sense that intensity does matter and is why it simply stops dealing damage as the damage drops off with distance as it grows weaker as there's less of the damaging sunlight involved to cause harm because few things are as illogical INCLUDING from a mystical/metaphysics standpoint that a vampire sitting on the sun takes no more damage than it does on Earth and that same vampire is quick fried on Pluto where the sun can't even be told apart from any other star in the sky.


So why doesn't the damage vary based on distance from the equator and time of year? While intensity clearly does matter (globe of daylight), we don't know how it matters, so anything that anyone rules is going to be a house rule. GM's just need to rule what is going to work for their games, because there ia no definitive argument to be made from canon sources.


Because they aren't significantly different compared to being on Mercury or Pluto, but yes the books give no idea how much the damage would scale based on distances/intensities since they're Earth-centric in calculations and can't cover every possible event (like vampires on Venus) leaving such non-Earth calculations up to the GM.

_________________
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:43 pm
  

User avatar
Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2002 2:01 am
Posts: 364
Location: Post Falls, ID
A vampire is a supernatural entity.

If it was just light intensity or UV then lasers would hurt them but they do not... so its the supernatural nature of day time and night time.

Keep it simple.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:28 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 40261
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
VR Dragon wrote:
A vampire is a supernatural entity.

If it was just light intensity or UV then lasers would hurt them but they do not... so its the supernatural nature of day time and night time.

Keep it simple.


"In other words, popping them into the heart of a star isn't going to make them dissolve any faster...just give them fewer places to hide."
"Nuts."
"Hey, I can work with that."

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:51 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:05 pm
Posts: 6350
Location: Memphis, TN
I have no idea what the canon position is and, quite frankly, we never bothered much with vampires in any of our games so it never came up.

However, I find it appealing to link a star's ability to sustain life with its ability to damage vampires. As such, I think I'd rule that vampires take damage from any star light intense enough to support photosynthesis. So in our solar system, once you get out to Jupiter, the Sun will not damage vampires.

Again, that's just my house rule. I have no idea what the canon ruling would be.

--flatline

_________________
I don't care about canon answers. I'm interested in good, well-reasoned answers and, perhaps, a short discussion of how that answer is supported or contradicted by canon.

If I don't provide a book and page number, then don't assume that I'm describing canon. I'll tell you if I'm describing canon.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:23 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 40261
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
flatline wrote:
I have no idea what the canon position is and, quite frankly, we never bothered much with vampires in any of our games so it never came up.

However, I find it appealing to link a star's ability to sustain life with its ability to damage vampires.

--flatline

:ok:

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:18 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am
Posts: 10620
flatline wrote:
I have no idea what the canon position is and, quite frankly, we never bothered much with vampires in any of our games so it never came up.

However, I find it appealing to link a star's ability to sustain life with its ability to damage vampires. As such, I think I'd rule that vampires take damage from any star light intense enough to support photosynthesis. So in our solar system, once you get out to Jupiter, the Sun will not damage vampires.

Again, that's just my house rule. I have no idea what the canon ruling would be.

--flatline


That still carries with it the idea that even more intense sunlight would deal more damage since it reaches the point it would effectively be too intensive and destructive for life, kind of like the Positive Material Realm in the original AD&D. It was so over-brimming with life energy it was actually dangerous, that more intense sunlight is even more charged with that life-energy that's contrary to the nature of the vampire.

_________________
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:55 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 8029
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Nightmask wrote:
flatline wrote:
I have no idea what the canon position is and, quite frankly, we never bothered much with vampires in any of our games so it never came up.

However, I find it appealing to link a star's ability to sustain life with its ability to damage vampires. As such, I think I'd rule that vampires take damage from any star light intense enough to support photosynthesis. So in our solar system, once you get out to Jupiter, the Sun will not damage vampires.

Again, that's just my house rule. I have no idea what the canon ruling would be.

--flatline


That still carries with it the idea that even more intense sunlight would deal more damage since it reaches the point it would effectively be too intensive and destructive for life, kind of like the Positive Material Realm in the original AD&D. It was so over-brimming with life energy it was actually dangerous, that more intense sunlight is even more charged with that life-energy that's contrary to the nature of the vampire.

No it doesn't.
It has a binary state to it.
Lifegiving light does damage X
Non-lifgiving light does no damage
Once again there is no 'scale to it' its a yes or no question.
All light that gives life does X all light that does not give light does not do X
Its a pretty simple formula
If L then D
If no L then no D

(L= Lifegiving light D=Damage)

There is no intensity issue.

Now sure, again, you can make such a house rule if you like. No one will stop you.
But the option here of explaining why the canon rule works is still a binary one not a scalar one.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:05 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 40261
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
The variable with the lifegiving sunlight factor, though, is non-terrestrial life. Oh, you could define 'lifegiving properties' by the efficiency of terrestrial chlorophyll-based photosynthesis, but what about lower-intensity photosensitive processes that we don't yet know about?

Okay, I realize I just mangled another clean solution/tossed kerosene on the grill... :mrgreen: :-| :D

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:19 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:05 pm
Posts: 6350
Location: Memphis, TN
taalismn wrote:
The variable with the lifegiving sunlight factor, though, is non-terrestrial life. Oh, you could define 'lifegiving properties' by the efficiency of terrestrial chlorophyll-based photosynthesis, but what about lower-intensity photosensitive processes that we don't yet know about?

Okay, I realize I just mangled another clean solution/tossed kerosene on the grill... :mrgreen: :-| :D


You could flip that on it's head and say that life within the solar system gives the star the ability to damage vampires, but only as far from the star as that life is sustained by the star. Using that rule, vampires would be fine on Mars until agriculture is established on Mars. Similarly, if all life on Earth was wiped out, then the Sun would lose its ability to damage vampires at all, no matter how close the vampire is to the sun.

But that's not as satisfying to me as my previous suggestion.

--flatline

_________________
I don't care about canon answers. I'm interested in good, well-reasoned answers and, perhaps, a short discussion of how that answer is supported or contradicted by canon.

If I don't provide a book and page number, then don't assume that I'm describing canon. I'll tell you if I'm describing canon.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:21 am
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 40261
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
flatline wrote:
taalismn wrote:
The variable with the lifegiving sunlight factor, though, is non-terrestrial life. Oh, you could define 'lifegiving properties' by the efficiency of terrestrial chlorophyll-based photosynthesis, but what about lower-intensity photosensitive processes that we don't yet know about?

Okay, I realize I just mangled another clean solution/tossed kerosene on the grill... :mrgreen: :-| :D


You could flip that on it's head and say that life within the solar system gives the star the ability to damage vampires, but only as far from the star as that life is sustained by the star. Using that rule, vampires would be fine on Mars until agriculture is established on Mars. Similarly, if all life on Earth was wiped out, then the Sun would lose its ability to damage vampires at all, no matter how close the vampire is to the sun.

But that's not as satisfying to me as my previous suggestion.

--flatline



Vampire Intelligence:(to daylight minions) "Go kill EVERYTHING in the system. I want a nice quiet place to rest between feeding runs."

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:57 pm
  

User avatar
D-Bee

Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:27 pm
Posts: 43
flatline wrote:
I have no idea what the canon position is and, quite frankly, we never bothered much with vampires in any of our games so it never came up.

However, I find it appealing to link a star's ability to sustain life with its ability to damage vampires. As such, I think I'd rule that vampires take damage from any star light intense enough to support photosynthesis. So in our solar system, once you get out to Jupiter, the Sun will not damage vampires.

Again, that's just my house rule. I have no idea what the canon ruling would be.

--flatline


This would imply that vampires walking on the sun would be just fine as most liquids one could theoretically use for a basis for life (water, ammonia, etc.) would boil and thus the star would be equally incapable of "sustaining life" at that range as it would be beyond the orbit of Jupiter.

*puts on Smash Mouth tinfoil hat* :lol:


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:33 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2001 1:01 am
Posts: 4708
Location: Clone Lab 27
Nightmask wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
In one of the Sourcebooks centered around the Phase World sector of the Rifts Multiverse, there is a Hook/Line/Sinker involving a colony that has been overrun with vampires.
The "exercise" requires the heroes to stay alive, for an extended period of time -assuming they even catch on to what's happening -until the moon colony gets around the planet and the sun shines on it (as in, the 'night' there on that moon is much longer than a terrestrial rotation, perhaps even several days long).

This outpost, IICR, is furthermore implied to be around a sun that is much weaker than Sol because the colony is snow-shrouded or extremely cold or something like that. The system might even be powered by a dwarf star, O just don;t remember.
If true, then this lends weight to the argument that the intensity of the sunlight in question does not matter to the vampire and the damage he receives.

MOST LIKELY CONCLUSION: If the star in question is the "sun" to the planet that a vampire is on, he will metaphysically take damage per the vampire damage tables should he find himself exposed to its rays. And if intensity doesn't matter because metaphysics are involved and not physics, then it shouldn't matter how far away a star is or what stage a star is in its life cycle, as long as it still gives off light.


Except metaphysics tend to work just like regular physics, where intensity does matter instead of 'well they got hit by a photon of light full damage for them'. Metaphysics rarely have intensity not matter from what I've seen, since even from a magical standpoint exposure to more of what something's vulnerable to is going to deal more damage instead of the same.

If I recall metaphysics is more about perception and will. That can change things in funny ways.

_________________
Out to Lunch
Please vote me 4 blue Lion.

The Clones are comming you shall all be replaced, but who is to say you have not been replaced already.

Master of Type-O and the obvios.

Soon my army oc clones and winged-monkies will rule the world but first, must .......


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:18 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am
Posts: 10620
Blue_Lion wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
In one of the Sourcebooks centered around the Phase World sector of the Rifts Multiverse, there is a Hook/Line/Sinker involving a colony that has been overrun with vampires.
The "exercise" requires the heroes to stay alive, for an extended period of time -assuming they even catch on to what's happening -until the moon colony gets around the planet and the sun shines on it (as in, the 'night' there on that moon is much longer than a terrestrial rotation, perhaps even several days long).

This outpost, IICR, is furthermore implied to be around a sun that is much weaker than Sol because the colony is snow-shrouded or extremely cold or something like that. The system might even be powered by a dwarf star, O just don;t remember.
If true, then this lends weight to the argument that the intensity of the sunlight in question does not matter to the vampire and the damage he receives.

MOST LIKELY CONCLUSION: If the star in question is the "sun" to the planet that a vampire is on, he will metaphysically take damage per the vampire damage tables should he find himself exposed to its rays. And if intensity doesn't matter because metaphysics are involved and not physics, then it shouldn't matter how far away a star is or what stage a star is in its life cycle, as long as it still gives off light.


Except metaphysics tend to work just like regular physics, where intensity does matter instead of 'well they got hit by a photon of light full damage for them'. Metaphysics rarely have intensity not matter from what I've seen, since even from a magical standpoint exposure to more of what something's vulnerable to is going to deal more damage instead of the same.


If I recall metaphysics is more about perception and will. That can change things in funny ways.


Except perception and will would STILL hold that 'more intense sunlight means more damage' because it's not a plausible perception that increasing intensity would carry no extra harm.

_________________
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:16 pm
  

User avatar
Priest

Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:19 pm
Posts: 40261
Location: Somewhere between Heaven, Hell, and New England
And if I can successfully engineer an organism(such as a plant) that can use the dim sunlight beyond Jovian orbit to fuel its life processes, can I seed those regions and effectively make them vampire no-zones? :P

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:50 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 8029
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Nightmask wrote:
Blue_Lion wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
cornholioprime wrote:
In one of the Sourcebooks centered around the Phase World sector of the Rifts Multiverse, there is a Hook/Line/Sinker involving a colony that has been overrun with vampires.
The "exercise" requires the heroes to stay alive, for an extended period of time -assuming they even catch on to what's happening -until the moon colony gets around the planet and the sun shines on it (as in, the 'night' there on that moon is much longer than a terrestrial rotation, perhaps even several days long).

This outpost, IICR, is furthermore implied to be around a sun that is much weaker than Sol because the colony is snow-shrouded or extremely cold or something like that. The system might even be powered by a dwarf star, O just don;t remember.
If true, then this lends weight to the argument that the intensity of the sunlight in question does not matter to the vampire and the damage he receives.

MOST LIKELY CONCLUSION: If the star in question is the "sun" to the planet that a vampire is on, he will metaphysically take damage per the vampire damage tables should he find himself exposed to its rays. And if intensity doesn't matter because metaphysics are involved and not physics, then it shouldn't matter how far away a star is or what stage a star is in its life cycle, as long as it still gives off light.


Except metaphysics tend to work just like regular physics, where intensity does matter instead of 'well they got hit by a photon of light full damage for them'. Metaphysics rarely have intensity not matter from what I've seen, since even from a magical standpoint exposure to more of what something's vulnerable to is going to deal more damage instead of the same.


If I recall metaphysics is more about perception and will. That can change things in funny ways.


Except perception and will would STILL hold that 'more intense sunlight means more damage' because it's not a plausible perception that increasing intensity would carry no extra harm.

Why would increasing intensity carry more harm in magic?
It doesn't in most forms of magic so why this one unique special case?
Virtually every spell has a flat "This far and no farther" effect parameter. Even if it is "more intense" (higher level, or higher spell strength)
No matter how much you change the 'intensity' (spell strength or level) of an Energy Bolt spell it does 4d6 SDC at 150'. Regardless if it is a level 1 Energy Bolt or a level 150 Energy Bolt. The intensity has changed... but this being magic nothing else has.
Light Healing? Yep, no change
Globe of Daylight? Guess what? Simulated daylight has no change based on level (intensity) other than how long you can maintain the spell...
...almost as if the 'intensity' of the magic has on effect on the 'intensity' sunlight or its effects...
Again and again spells have no change regardless of the 'intensity' of the spell. The only time magic has a damage change based on intensity, is when the damage is done per level, and to do that we are explicitly told "this magic has a variable damage, here is how the variable is calculated". There are round about zero magical effects that have variable damage where the variation is not spelled out but is just 'implied because magic is just like science and thus must be variable of course'.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:25 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:38 pm
Posts: 875
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this or not.. but instead of intensity and all that.. sunlight is what is considered day light on the planet you are on. The hours that part of the planet is facing the sun. Because magic rules like how holy symbol only works if wearer believes.. MAGIC! Only because everyone believes see the sun, it's sun light and day time.
So the sunlight spell creates sunlight equal to that planet, or what the caster considers daylight from their planet.
So whatever is considered "daylight hours" on pluto, the side facing the sun, is day, and vampires are damaged, even if that light is not really visible to our eyes, magically it's day, and burn vampires burn. Same with Mercury.. day light is a lot brighter visually, but magically it's still "day", for however long a planetary rotation is.

But then you have a problem with if you're travelling in space.. well if you're in light with the sun, it's day? enter the shadow of a PLANET, it's night? or at least the vampire is shielded from the damage of the sun.
As to how far out the sun affects the vampire.. I guess what is considered part of the solar system is affected by that sun/star, anything outside that is free game. So out pass the Oort cloud is not in our solar system, and a vampire could float around a few million miles past the Oort and be safe, but his/her chances of encountering a food source are low and would end up starving.

Just my 2 credits.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:05 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:26 pm
Posts: 9937
Comment: Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.
The photoelectric effect is a physical phenomenon in which increasing intensity carries no extra "harm". Indeed, it's only in classical physics that important concepts are continuous but that actually leads to inaccuracies in the theory and the need for quantum physics. Nevertheless, there are magical effects that have variable P.P.E. costs for variable results. On the other hand, the star may not be expending any P.P.E. whatsoever and an entirely different mystical aspect is at work. I reckon I can understand the desire for distance from the star to matter, but it seems like a whole lot of work for very little in return.


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:37 pm
  

D-Bee

Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:27 am
Posts: 42
Here's a question--how do fog and cloud-cover affect Rifts Vampires' vulnerability to sunlight, if at all?


          Top  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:53 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 8029
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Freemage wrote:
Here's a question--how do fog and cloud-cover affect Rifts Vampires' vulnerability to sunlight, if at all?

They don't
By canon, sunlight fries you irrespective of cloud cover, or fog, or other such minor details...
...and yes I get what your pointing out. That the intensity is being wildly varied here and the damage doesn't change at all. Also a cloudy dawn and a clear noon still do the same damage...

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


          Top  
 
 
Post new topic Reply to topic



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group