Hsien Hsia Question

Mysticism, spies, cybernetic implants, & cool vehicles. Discuss these two great classics here.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

User avatar
The Beast
Demon Lord Extraordinaire
Posts: 5956
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:28 pm
Comment: You probably think this comment is about you, don't you?
Location: Apocrypha

Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by The Beast »

I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)
User avatar
eliakon
Palladin
Posts: 9093
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Contact:

Re: Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by eliakon »

The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

Yep, you two can remove your character from play at level four.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
User avatar
Tor
Palladin
Posts: 6975
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:37 pm
Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
Location: Pyramid

Re: Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by Tor »

The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error?

I don't imagine why it would be.

The Beast wrote:a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time


You don't need Two Minds to be enlightened as far as I know.

As for Discorporate, any form that can select Zenjoriki at first level (like Tai Chi) can get it right away and reach enlightenment, with the option/temptation to leave forever.

Hsien Hsia is just the only form guaranteed to teach it. Presumably with other arts what you learn is sort of random or influenced by what you or your teacher are into.

Although I think it's standard to let players choose, some GMs might opt to have players make random rolls as to which mystic Zenjoriki power they develope, or limit certain selections based on exposure to concepts. You can't wheedle out of a Hsien guy getting it though.

Of course, becoming enlightened just lets you reincarnate. You'd be a 0 step refined immortal, because REFINED Enlightened Immortals know how to do Internal Alchemy and stop aging so they can't die of it.

Discorporate doesn't teach that, and there's no clear indication as to how one goes about learning Internal Alchemy and forming the Elixir so all those cool powers are pretty much GM fiat.
"1st edition? 2nd edition? It doesnt matter! Let's just talk" -Forums of the Megaverse
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

Hsien Hsia is a Martial Art Form not a HtH. MAFs are more skill programs, then just a single skill that rifts/HU/NB/...have HtH skills as.

No.

Nope, can't change anything with Hsien Hsia. So a WMA would not get any extra powers.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
User avatar
The Beast
Demon Lord Extraordinaire
Posts: 5956
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:28 pm
Comment: You probably think this comment is about you, don't you?
Location: Apocrypha

Re: Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by The Beast »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

Hsien Hsia is a Martial Art Form not a HtH. MAFs are more skill programs, then just a single skill that rifts/HU/NB/...have HtH skills as.

No.

Nope, can't change anything with Hsien Hsia. So a WMA would not get any extra powers.


I wouldn't be getting an extra power. As a WMA, I'd be taking the power earlier than the MA form provides it to you if you took it if you were a DMA.
User avatar
Nightmask
Palladin
Posts: 9268
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am

Re: Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by Nightmask »

The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)


Probably not an error, just didn't think things through based on the Worldly Martial Artist getting to learn an extra Martial Art power outside that available to a particular form's normal development of such. As has already been note though you can choose to Discorporate at level 1 if you've got it at that level and begin the journey to being an Enlightened Immortal, there aren't any other requirements (unless you thought that somehow with Two Minds you could Discorporate to become an Enlightened Immortal AND leave some of yourself behind at the same time).

While I haven't got the book handy doesn't that MA make Discorporate available at a much higher level later on? If so I could see a GM ruling he couldn't use the bonus to 'skip ahead' as it were to acquire a Martial Art power that the form already has locked in at a particular level.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
User avatar
The Beast
Demon Lord Extraordinaire
Posts: 5956
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:28 pm
Comment: You probably think this comment is about you, don't you?
Location: Apocrypha

Re: Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by The Beast »

Nightmask wrote:
The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)


Probably not an error, just didn't think things through based on the Worldly Martial Artist getting to learn an extra Martial Art power outside that available to a particular form's normal development of such. As has already been note though you can choose to Discorporate at level 1 if you've got it at that level and begin the journey to being an Enlightened Immortal, there aren't any other requirements (unless you thought that somehow with Two Minds you could Discorporate to become an Enlightened Immortal AND leave some of yourself behind at the same time).

While I haven't got the book handy doesn't that MA make Discorporate available at a much higher level later on? If so I could see a GM ruling he couldn't use the bonus to 'skip ahead' as it were to acquire a Martial Art power that the form already has locked in at a particular level.


Yeah, I read that on another thread here. I know it doesn't mention it in the book, but what the other poster presented his point made sense to me.
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The Beast wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

Hsien Hsia is a Martial Art Form not a HtH. MAFs are more skill programs, then just a single skill that rifts/HU/NB/...have HtH skills as.

No.

Nope, can't change anything with Hsien Hsia. So a WMA would not get any extra powers.


I wouldn't be getting an extra power. As a WMA, I'd be taking the power earlier than the MA form provides it to you if you took it if you were a DMA.

That would be changing it. Which in the MAF text says can't be done with this form. That is that very simply stated in the MAF text.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
User avatar
Nightmask
Palladin
Posts: 9268
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:39 am

Re: Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by Nightmask »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Beast wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The Beast wrote:I was looking at the HtH form Hsien Hsia the other day and I noticed that it isn't an exclusive MA form. Is this an error? Because technically speaking, a Worldly Martial Artist could take it, and take the Discorporate power as his Special Martial Arts Bonus, and then wait until level four to get the Two Minds Zenjorike and go for enlightenment at that time. (The whole thing about being removed from the game is a separate thing better discussed with your GM.)

Hsien Hsia is a Martial Art Form not a HtH. MAFs are more skill programs, then just a single skill that rifts/HU/NB/...have HtH skills as.

No.

Nope, can't change anything with Hsien Hsia. So a WMA would not get any extra powers.


I wouldn't be getting an extra power. As a WMA, I'd be taking the power earlier than the MA form provides it to you if you took it if you were a DMA.


That would be changing it. Which in the MAF text says can't be done with this form. That is that very simply stated in the MAF text.


It wouldn't be changing it since it's not being learned as part of the Martial Art, it no more changes that martial art than learning that extra Martial Art Power changes any other Martial Art a WMA might have, since it's not actually part of that MA but a bonus learned much like someone picking up an extra skill outside a regular package.
Fair warning: I consider being called a munchkin a highly offensive slur and do report people when they err in doing so.

'Reality is very disappointing.' - Jonathan Switcher from Mannequin

It's 'canon', not 'cannon'. A cannon is a big gun like on pirate ships, canon is what you mean when referring to something as being contained within one of the books such as how many dice to roll for a stat.
User avatar
Tor
Palladin
Posts: 6975
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:37 pm
Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
Location: Pyramid

Re: Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by Tor »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:can't change anything with Hsien Hsia. So a WMA would not get any extra powers.
Sure they would, it's not changing the art, it's adding to it. Zenjoriki exist independently of forms.

Heck, a dedicated could learn Hsien Hsia as a secondary, just don't let your master find out if you start using the old one again, sacrilege.

somehow with Two Minds you could Discorporate to become an Enlightened Immortal AND leave some of yourself behind at the same time
This intrigues me...

Does activating TM mean you could resist the temptation, since you couldn't permanently discorporate without all of you?

Or would using TM just prevent using Discorporate?

Or if you used it, could you permanently lose half of yourself and leave a demon behind in your body?
"1st edition? 2nd edition? It doesnt matter! Let's just talk" -Forums of the Megaverse
User avatar
drewkitty ~..~
Monk
Posts: 17737
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Eastvale, calif
Contact:

Re: Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Adding to something is changing it.

The question to be asked in this since is "Is what you want to do different then what the text says it has to be?" If the answer is yes, in any way (small or large) then you changed it. Which that MAF's text says is not to happen with that MAF.
May you be blessed with the ability to change course when you are off the mark.
Each question should be give the canon answer 1st, then you can proclaim your house rules.
Reading and writing (literacy) is how people on BBS interact.
Regularguy
Adventurer
Posts: 774
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:54 am

Re: Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by Regularguy »

Tor wrote:
somehow with Two Minds you could Discorporate to become an Enlightened Immortal AND leave some of yourself behind at the same time
This intrigues me...

Does activating TM mean you could resist the temptation, since you couldn't permanently discorporate without all of you?

Or would using TM just prevent using Discorporate?

Or if you used it, could you permanently lose half of yourself and leave a demon behind in your body?


Since I'm apparently the poster being referred to, let me add that (a) I figured you'd need to have one of your Two Minds use Mind Walk before Discorporating, and that (b) the other stuff Hsien Hsia insists you master before learning to discorporate -- being able to Calm Minds that don't wanna come back, and Spirit Bursting at nefarious types who do wanna get in -- is maybe required training on the road to guaranteed success for a reason.
User avatar
Tor
Palladin
Posts: 6975
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:37 pm
Comment: If you have something to say, back it up with thoughts and reasons. Simply posting to agree or disagree tends to be a waste.
Location: Pyramid

Re: Hsien Hsia Question

Unread post by Tor »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Adding to something is changing it.

By that logic, someone with Hsien Hsia could not select language or physical skills because those are also associated with and sometimes attached to martial art forms and would also 'change' it.

Getting a Zenjoriki from being Worldly doesn't 'change' Hsien Hsia any more than holding a shield in your left hand changes the knife in your right.

Regularguy wrote:I figured you'd need to have one of your Two Minds use Mind Walk before Discorporating

You don't have to, but I do think you raise the interesting possibility that it may operate as some kind of security.

Regularguy wrote:the other stuff Hsien Hsia insists you master before learning to discorporate -- being able to Calm Minds that don't wanna come back

I'm not entirely sure staying discorporated is due to excitement... though perhaps you can calm euphoria. That said, what benefit is calming OTHER people's minds when you are the one who is discorporating?

Perhaps Calm Minds is useful in helping the world though, and may be good for recruiting new students. Perhaps it is at this point that students can begin teaching newcomers the basics, even though they have not mastered the art far enough to verify its teachings.

Regularguy wrote:Spirit Bursting at nefarious types who do wanna get in

Not sure what you mean by this, it's not like evil types can just hitch a ride when you discorporate. Sometimes they can learn it themself... do you figure new students get spirit-bursted as a test to prevent demons from posing as students to learn the art?
"1st edition? 2nd edition? It doesnt matter! Let's just talk" -Forums of the Megaverse
Post Reply

Return to “Ninjas & Superspies™ & Mystic China™”