Can the Foxes become people too?

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Tor
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Re: Can the Foxes become people too?

Unread post by Tor »

How did we get here, talking about OCC changes or something? I'll put this detour off for another time.

The core topic relates to the race of Enlightened Immortals and how mutable it (or other factors like gender, ethnicity, attributes) are upon rebirth as a new being in a womb.
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Re: Can the Foxes become people too?

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:How did we get here, talking about OCC changes or something? I'll put this detour off for another time.

The core topic relates to the race of Enlightened Immortals and how mutable it (or other factors like gender, ethnicity, attributes) are upon rebirth as a new being in a womb.

The core issue I think was "Can Spirit Foxes turn into people"
To which I still would have to say "no" Just because one pure Chi race has that ability does not mean any other pure Chi race has that ability anymore than it would follow that just because one carbon based life form has some racial ability like flight that all carbon based life forms also can fly. Unless something else comes along and says that the ability to reform into a human is, in fact not a demonic thing, but really a natural ability of all pure Chi life forms, then we should continue to assume that only the races that have it listed as an ability can use it.
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Re: Can the Foxes become people too?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

The OP question was "Can Spirit Foxes turn into people?"
The answer is still "No, because they are already people."

However, OP question was poorly worded. The question I believe Tor meant was "Can Spirit Foxes turn from being a Spirit Fox and into a mundane race like the Infernal Demons can?"
No, there is no mechanic in the canon for them to change in that way. They can not use the ID's mechanic because they don't need to "Reform" from being inherently evil/neg. chi.
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Tor
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Re: Can the Foxes become people too?

Unread post by Tor »

Mundane is relative, tell that to the CS. I probably should've just said 'become human too' though, you're right :)

I guess the issue is, assuming their Zenjorike allows them to become EIs, and if EI reinarnation can change race as well as attributes/sex, if it could change a chi race into a non-chi race.
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Re: Can the Foxes become people too?

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:Mundane is relative, tell that to the CS. I probably should've just said 'become human too' though, you're right :)

I guess the issue is, assuming their Zenjorike allows them to become EIs, and if EI reinarnation can change race as well as attributes/sex, if it could change a chi race into a non-chi race.

So IF we presume that A is defined to be true, and we also posit that B is also defined as being true, then IF A & B -> C we can assume C....
Well yeah. If you define all the premise to include the conclusion the conclusion is always supported.

But since the first two are in doubt (I.e. there appears to be legitimate doubt on if Zenjorike can turn you into an EI, and if EI can change races) then the answer is back to "Maybe, depending on what house rules the GM chooses to use at their table."
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Re: Can the Foxes become people too?

Unread post by Tor »

Unless humans are the only species with a womb, the lack of species-lock says species-interchangeability to me. Discorporate and the pre-Alchemy EI also seem to be referring to same stuff. Restricting race would be a house rule.
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Re: Can the Foxes become people too?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

defining for use within PB lexicon.
Mundane: Not Supernatural, & Not a Creature of magic.
Examples of usage:
✠ NB/NS's facade can be just about any any mundane SDC sophent race.
✠ Humans and Elves are mundanes where balrogs and unicorns are not.
✠ Neo-Humans are mundanes even though they can transform into a supernatural state using the power of their minds.
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Re: Can the Foxes become people too?

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:Unless humans are the only species with a womb, the lack of species-lock says species-interchangeability to me. Discorporate and the pre-Alchemy EI also seem to be referring to same stuff. Restricting race would be a house rule.

Which brings us back to the question of do we have to prove negatives or positives.
I.E. is everything not prohibited allowed (prove a negative) or is everything not allowed prohibited (prove a positive). I would personally go with proving positives since the requirement to prove a negative is logically fallacious and leads to all sorts of other problems (there is no text saying that X doesn't have Y, there for X has Y....)
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Re: Can the Foxes become people too?

Unread post by Tor »

In that case by this policy you would also have to prove that you are not reborn as an identical clone since it says nothing about changing sex/race/attributes by being reborn.

IE if Karl Prosek became an Enlightened Immortal and then got offed and reborn inside the womb of Erin Tarn then he would grow up to be physically identical to Karl Prosek and nobody else.
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Re: Can the Foxes become people too?

Unread post by eliakon »

Tor wrote:In that case by this policy you would also have to prove that you are not reborn as an identical clone since it says nothing about changing sex/race/attributes by being reborn.

IE if Karl Prosek became an Enlightened Immortal and then got offed and reborn inside the womb of Erin Tarn then he would grow up to be physically identical to Karl Prosek and nobody else.

And?
That very well could be how it works in the Palladium universe.

I don't 'have to prove' that it doesn't. I just simply have to say "House rule: Thus and so is changed" BAM done. But RAW? Nope don't have to prove anything. But I will agree with your statement. At this time it would appear that yes, you are reborn as functionally identical. Maybe a later publication (Rifts Mystic China 3 for example or an official Rifter article) may clarify this.
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

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Re: Can the Foxes become people too?

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

Tor wrote:In that case by this policy you would also have to prove that you are not reborn as an identical clone since it says nothing about changing sex/race/attributes by being reborn.

IE if Karl Prosek became an Enlightened Immortal and then got offed and reborn inside the womb of Erin Tarn then he would grow up to be physically identical to Karl Prosek and nobody else.

There is no text that supports that Enlightened Immortals are reborn as Gene-clones of their former selves. The text only says that they are reborn.

The possibility of EI's will be born as gene clones of their former selves is vanishingly small. It would take some sort of mystical interference to cause a baby to be a gene-clone of the former EI. Said interference is not what is presented in the Mystic China book.

Any statement saying the EI's have to be reborn as a gene-clone of their former selves falls into the category of 'house rule'.
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Any "clarification" for the N&S/MC setting would come in a gamebook of that setting, or in a "canon"/"official" Rifter article about the setting. A Rifts book stat'ing out a Rifts EI would only be good in the rifts setting.
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Re: Can the Foxes become people too?

Unread post by Tor »

eliakon wrote:I don't 'have to prove' that it doesn't. I just simply have to say "House rule: Thus and so is changed" BAM done. But RAW? Nope don't have to prove anything.

You can certainly house rule that you are reborn as a clone. There isn't anything explicit in the rules about NOT being reborn as a clone...

However since there is no mention of over-riding the DNA of the fetus your soul enters, I am inclined to think that your DNA is a mixture of the 2 parents per standard reproduction. To be a clone you would have to rewrite the DNA or structure of the fetus and this alteration is not specified.

It says the baby initially appears "perfectly normal". But if you assume the DNA and appearance of your past life and resemble that, rather than resemble your parents, that would not be 'normal', which leads me to think this does not happen.

I would think you take on a new appearance with your new life. Of course people who are 6th time refined could use the 'Self-Transmutation' power to assume appearances from their past lives, or do so if they also learned magic via spell like Metamorphosis: Human.

eliakon wrote:At this time it would appear that yes, you are reborn as functionally identical. Maybe a later publication (Rifts Mystic China 3 for example or an official Rifter article) may clarify this.

Why does it appear that way?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is no text that supports that Enlightened Immortals are reborn as Gene-clones of their former selves. The text only says that they are reborn.
Agreed.

But my point here is that only a gene clone would be perfectly identical, and that is the end result of taking a "same unless otherwise indicated" policy about the immortal's physical body.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The possibility of EI's will be born as gene clones of their former selves is vanishingly small. It would take some sort of mystical interference to cause a baby to be a gene-clone of the former EI. Said interference is not what is presented in the Mystic China book.

Any statement saying the EI's have to be reborn as a gene-clone of their former selves falls into the category of 'house rule'.


As would a statement that you would be reborn as the same gender, or the same race, since those are also aspects of biology/genetics.

To throw out gene-clone means to throw out 'same unless otherwise indicated' assumptions about sex/species too.
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