Wu Shih and Martial Arts Advancement

[Nightmask]

Doesn't it seem wrong that the Wu Shih unlike every other mage (and even non-mages) in the Palladium Multiverse are locked at 3rd level in their MA unable to advance higher? They have very limited PPE, generally weak spells (even if they can learn Wizard spells they require access to them and again are limited by their PPE reserves), and with the locked MA can't even advance well in self-defense. I can't see why if every other mage manages just fine with unlimited advancement of their HtH skill that the Wu Shih shouldn't also have the same open-ended advancement.

If Multiple OCC is also allowed you then have the possibility that someone could advance as say a Dedicated MA with Tai Chi as one of his MA, reach third level and switch to Wu Shih and as per advancement rules for such once he's a 4th level Wu Shih his HtH skills aka his Tai-Chi should resume advancement even though as a Wu Shih alone it would be locked at 3rd level.

[drewkitty ~..~]

I never did like having the MAF frozen at 3rd level.

However, what the Wu Shih is, is a a MA that has given up his pursuit of perfecting his MAF to pursue magic. This follows the changing class rules, except that the old class is not stated and the old class skills are not given.

For the Wu Shih to proceed in the MAF they would have to change class to a MA class that gives access to MAF's.


I a player with munchkin tendencies do have a Wu Shih that was a DMA, but has transcended the changing class rules because the char is an immortal. So has switched back and forth between the Wu Shih and DMA
classes for K's of years.

[Nightmask]

I never did like having the MAF frozen at 3rd level.

However, what the Wu Shih is, is a a MA that has given up his pursuit of perfecting his MAF to pursue magic. This follows the changing class rules, except that the old class is not stated and the old class skills are not given.

For the Wu Shih to proceed in the MAF they would have to change class to a MA class that gives access to MAF's.


I a player with munchkin tendencies do have a Wu Shih that was a DMA, but has transcended the changing class rules because the char is an immortal. So has switched back and forth between the Wu Shih and DMA
classes for K's of years.

Does seem like one really should toss that MA restriction, not like it's going to be unbalanced having a magic user like the Wu Shih with no advancement restrictions like every other mage many of them far more powerful and with a wider range of skills available. After all how could ALL Wu Shih be retired MA? Wouldn't someone have to teach so why wouldn't a Wu Shih be training students from scratch? Seems odd that they supposedly go around looking for a MA of the correct style and level to tempt away with offers of magical training. That and just why would these styles have it that you start going 'oh my I think I almost cast a spell!' and start hungering for magical training?

I do find your suggestion that the Wu Shih as defined must have been a prior OCC that made one of the few styles available that will let you become a Wu Shih available and reached 3rd level, so one could give some benefit to the Wu Shih by letting the character have all appropriate skills of a prior OCC (like Worldly Martial Artist) but frozen while he gains the skills available to the Wu Shih PCC.

That does leave you with something interesting to consider, since as a prior Dedicated Martial Artist you'd have two (or three depending on your book and interpretation of things) complete styles available so while your Tai-Chi may not be advancing that training you took in Zanji Shinjinken Ryu could advance once you reached 4th level and up. Even if not having another style could be extremely helpful. Tae Kwon Do would give some nice non-weapon combat training and access to some useful Body Hardening Exercises, and of course Moo Gi Gong would give you all ancient weapon skills to fight with.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Note 1: the text leads me to believe that all (or most) Wu Shih are self taught.

Note 2: the following is how I use the rules found in the back of the N&S book. But they can be looked at differently but others.
A DMA AM has three MAF one primary at L10 and two secondary at L3.
As to the why, #1 conflicts with #2&#3. and as previously stated I have munch... high powered tendencies.
sidenote to note 2: the DMA AM conversion is of the AM from HU1r, not of HU2.

note 3: I said that they must have been a MA class, with access to MAF, not just having a prior OCC. The book says that they are all retired MA.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's because wizards easially dominate in every game they feature in. If they had a full powered wizard with large PPE reserves and access to spells they would simply replace martial arts as the path to power entirely.

[Nightmask]

It's because wizards easially dominate in every game they feature in. If they had a full powered wizard with large PPE reserves and access to spells they would simply replace martial arts as the path to power entirely.

I can't see a Wu Shih easily dominating anything, not with that weak spell list and so many spells that the only point to include them is for NPC supernatural creatures because the human Wu Shih can never achieve that much PPE. Certainly a Ley Line Walker isn't going to be a combat machine even with HtH: MA, but it is useful to be able to fall back on when PPE runs out. The limited MA available to the Wu Shih aren't heavy combat either and what's more given how limited the PPE is for the Wu Shih and few spells that are really good for offense (or defense for that matter) you're putting them in a straight-jacket to say that they can't ever increase their MA by an iota over 3rd level.

I mean there's no point to a Mystic China supplement when your intention is to have the mystical characters be fairly worthless and only the Martial Artists and Superspies have any real ability. Plus it's not like there aren't stories enough to support the idea of mages with exceptional MA ability to fall back on, at the least for defensive purposes. That and if wizards so easily dominate every game then why are any of those mage OCC allowed to select anything beyond HtH: Basic and have it capped at say 3rd level? If the idea is that mages are just too powerful no matter how poor the spell list or lacking in mystical energy then why are all other mages not restricted to little or no combat skills so that they're all helpless without their magic?

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's because wizards easially dominate in every game they feature in. If they had a full powered wizard with large PPE reserves and access to spells they would simply replace martial arts as the path to power entirely.

I can't see a Wu Shih easily dominating anything, not with that weak spell list and so many spells that the only point to include them is for NPC supernatural creatures because the human Wu Shih can never achieve that much PPE.

Exactly my point. It's a balancing feature.

Certainly a Ley Line Walker isn't going to be a combat machine even with HtH: MA, but it is useful to be able to fall back on when PPE runs out. The limited MA available to the Wu Shih aren't heavy combat either and what's more given how limited the PPE is for the Wu Shih and few spells that are really good for offense (or defense for that matter) you're putting them in a straight-jacket to say that they can't ever increase their MA by an iota over 3rd level.

I agree the 3rd level limit is a bit silly but I see the logic. however, your wrong, depending on how they're decked out a ley line walker can easially be a combat machine even with only hand to hand basic. I've seen it happen.

sinse being stuck at third level is the problem, we'll assume we're talking about upper mid range characters here.

A sixth or seventh level ley line walker can:

Make someone their slave in a single turn (Dominate). This ends the fight before it starts, and lets you kill the victem in hilariously amusing ways.

Carpet of adhesion will instantly render worthless any purely hand to hand martial artist.

Magic net will take care of any superspys or mercenaries packing heat

and if they want to go head on?

Pop off Mystic Armor/Armor of Ithan, Superhuman Speed, Superhuman Strength, and then go to town.

That's just the basic tricks virtually every ley line walker gets. I could go into much greater detail.

but trust me this: I've PLAYED Wizards and Martial Artists cross over. the Martial artists spend most fights sitting on their thumb because the wizard ends the fight in one turn.

I mean there's no point to a Mystic China supplement when your intention is to have the mystical characters be fairly worthless and only the Martial Artists and Superspies have any real ability. Plus it's not like there aren't stories enough to support the idea of mages with exceptional MA ability to fall back on, at the least for defensive purposes. That and if wizards so easily dominate every game then why are any of those mage OCC allowed to select anything beyond HtH: Basic and have it capped at say 3rd level? If the idea is that mages are just too powerful no matter how poor the spell list or lacking in mystical energy then why are all other mages not restricted to little or no combat skills so that they're all helpless without their magic?

Magic in mystic china is ment to be more the Pulp kind of magic rather than the classical fantasy kind. Magic is strange, difficult, and extremely rare. Even those who use it spent long years accumulating a mere handful of powers. And then you have horrifying Demonic forces which have mastered all kinds of magic and are physically extremely tough to boot. Even a basic infernal is extremely dangerous, the more powerful ones are downright horrorfying. They're ment to be outsmarted, not out blasted.

[Nightmask]

It's because wizards easially dominate in every game they feature in. If they had a full powered wizard with large PPE reserves and access to spells they would simply replace martial arts as the path to power entirely.

I can't see a Wu Shih easily dominating anything, not with that weak spell list and so many spells that the only point to include them is for NPC supernatural creatures because the human Wu Shih can never achieve that much PPE.

Exactly my point. It's a balancing feature.

Except it's not a balancing feature, it's not making Wu Shih more comparable to the other classes it's making them inherently weaker. Feng Shi have no restrictions on level advancement while having spell-casting ability, neither do Tao Shih. Why then the Wu Shih when their spells are already nerfed such that the materials available to the Martial Artists are superior? Also why single out the Wu Shih if as you say wizards are inherently superior and are written so in every other RPG from Palladium? Why for this one class are they seen as such a threat they might as well not have been included at all if they're seen as so awesomely powerful?

Certainly a Ley Line Walker isn't going to be a combat machine even with HtH: MA, but it is useful to be able to fall back on when PPE runs out. The limited MA available to the Wu Shih aren't heavy combat either and what's more given how limited the PPE is for the Wu Shih and few spells that are really good for offense (or defense for that matter) you're putting them in a straight-jacket to say that they can't ever increase their MA by an iota over 3rd level.

I agree the 3rd level limit is a bit silly but I see the logic. however, your wrong, depending on how they're decked out a ley line walker can easially be a combat machine even with only hand to hand basic. I've seen it happen.

sinse being stuck at third level is the problem, we'll assume we're talking about upper mid range characters here.

A sixth or seventh level ley line walker can:

Make someone their slave in a single turn (Dominate). This ends the fight before it starts, and lets you kill the victem in hilariously amusing ways.

Carpet of adhesion will instantly render worthless any purely hand to hand martial artist.

Magic net will take care of any superspys or mercenaries packing heat

and if they want to go head on?

Pop off Mystic Armor/Armor of Ithan, Superhuman Speed, Superhuman Strength, and then go to town.

That's just the basic tricks virtually every ley line walker gets. I could go into much greater detail.

but trust me this: I've PLAYED Wizards and Martial Artists cross over. the Martial artists spend most fights sitting on their thumb because the wizard ends the fight in one turn.

Note that you're using Ley Line Walkers as an example, with a far more impressive spell list available to them than the Wu Shih has. Some of the examples like Superhuman Speed and Strength aren't even available as spells to Wu Shih but are available to any Martial Artist who can use Body Chi (including the Wu Shih), so it's not like the Wu Shih is going to be tossing off such an assortment of spells with limited PPE and no spells capable of those things even available to them. Really makes little sense when they're already kept with just a thimble of PPE and almost no chance of acquiring it from outside sources to keep them from at least advancing as a MA like everyone else on top of everything else.

I mean there's no point to a Mystic China supplement when your intention is to have the mystical characters be fairly worthless and only the Martial Artists and Superspies have any real ability. Plus it's not like there aren't stories enough to support the idea of mages with exceptional MA ability to fall back on, at the least for defensive purposes. That and if wizards so easily dominate every game then why are any of those mage OCC allowed to select anything beyond HtH: Basic and have it capped at say 3rd level? If the idea is that mages are just too powerful no matter how poor the spell list or lacking in mystical energy then why are all other mages not restricted to little or no combat skills so that they're all helpless without their magic?

Magic in mystic china is ment to be more the Pulp kind of magic rather than the classical fantasy kind. Magic is strange, difficult, and extremely rare. Even those who use it spent long years accumulating a mere handful of powers. And then you have horrifying Demonic forces which have mastered all kinds of magic and are physically extremely tough to boot. Even a basic infernal is extremely dangerous, the more powerful ones are downright horrorfying. They're ment to be outsmarted, not out blasted.

If that were so there wouldn't be such emphasis placed on Martial Artists then and making them more powerful than the magic classes available in a setting that's all about mystical things. There's no less emphasis on combat and physically defeating opponents in Mystic China than there is in any other setting from Palladium. You don't drive off demonic threats being clever unless you're running a great bluff and most of the time that just doesn't cut it and you're forced to have to fight generally to the death against these forces. There's even the one class that's built around directly battling demons. The mages should therefor have more value than they're given, especially the Wu Shih. It's more like the Wu Shih was reluctantly included but restricted enough that players will consider it worthless enough to go with a 'proper' non-magical Martial Artist OCC instead. Much like how Psionics is always dealt a range of extra, unnecessary restrictions and treated like an unwanted add-on by AD&D where the writers don't like that players want to get psionics in their magic so technically give them what they want but do what they can to hinder it so the players will pick a 'proper' magic class instead.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's because wizards easially dominate in every game they feature in. If they had a full powered wizard with large PPE reserves and access to spells they would simply replace martial arts as the path to power entirely.

I can't see a Wu Shih easily dominating anything, not with that weak spell list and so many spells that the only point to include them is for NPC supernatural creatures because the human Wu Shih can never achieve that much PPE.

Exactly my point. It's a balancing feature.

Except it's not a balancing feature, it's not making Wu Shih more comparable to the other classes it's making them inherently weaker.

That's because without such restrictions they would be inherently stronger. If they had access to a full martial art, they would be worldly martial artists with magic, thus rendering the worldly martial artist obsolete.

Feng Shi have no restrictions on level advancement while having spell-casting ability, neither do Tao Shih.

That's because both have heavy restrictions on the types of spells they can learn. Feng Shi can only learn geomatic spells, and Tao Shih can only learn spells with the tag saying they are compatible with celestial calligraphy. This leaves most of the more powerful spells completely unavaible to them. Wu Shih can learn any spell AND can learn Western Ley Line Walker magic to boot. that necessites restrictions in other areas for balance.

Why then the Wu Shih when their spells are already nerfed such that the materials available to the Martial Artists are superior? Also why single out the Wu Shih if as you say wizards are inherently superior and are written so in every other RPG from Palladium? Why for this one class are they seen as such a threat they might as well not have been included at all if they're seen as so awesomely powerful?

Because they wanted to include SOME magic without letting them dominate, because it's still supposed to be a Kung-Fu game. Thus the very heavily restricted spellcasting classes. They are avaible, but generally not always preferable.

Note that you're using Ley Line Walkers as an example, with a far more impressive spell list available to them than the Wu Shih has. Some of the examples like Superhuman Speed and Strength aren't even available as spells to Wu Shih but are available to any Martial Artist who can use Body Chi (including the Wu Shih), so it's not like the Wu Shih is going to be tossing off such an assortment of spells with limited PPE and no spells capable of those things even available to them. Really makes little sense when they're already kept with just a thimble of PPE and almost no chance of acquiring it from outside sources to keep them from at least advancing as a MA like everyone else on top of everything else.

Yes, that's exsactly the point. They are limited in this way so you can't play them like a ley line walker. So what's the problem?

I mean there's no point to a Mystic China supplement when your intention is to have the mystical characters be fairly worthless and only the Martial Artists and Superspies have any real ability. Plus it's not like there aren't stories enough to support the idea of mages with exceptional MA ability to fall back on, at the least for defensive purposes. That and if wizards so easily dominate every game then why are any of those mage OCC allowed to select anything beyond HtH: Basic and have it capped at say 3rd level? If the idea is that mages are just too powerful no matter how poor the spell list or lacking in mystical energy then why are all other mages not restricted to little or no combat skills so that they're all helpless without their magic?

Magic in mystic china is ment to be more the Pulp kind of magic rather than the classical fantasy kind. Magic is strange, difficult, and extremely rare. Even those who use it spent long years accumulating a mere handful of powers. And then you have horrifying Demonic forces which have mastered all kinds of magic and are physically extremely tough to boot. Even a basic infernal is extremely dangerous, the more powerful ones are downright horrorfying. They're ment to be outsmarted, not out blasted.

If that were so there wouldn't be such emphasis placed on Martial Artists then and making them more powerful than the magic classes available in a setting that's all about mystical things.

That's because it's not all about mystical things. It's still about Ninja's and Superspys. that's why it's a supplement and not it's own game. It's there so you CAN inject some orential style mysticisem into your Spys vs Ninja game, not to put the sole focus on it. concequently, the magic there is nerfed to the point it cannot dominate the overall game.

There's no less emphasis on combat and physically defeating opponents in Mystic China than there is in any other setting from Palladium. You don't drive off demonic threats being clever unless you're running a great bluff and most of the time that just doesn't cut it and you're forced to have to fight generally to the death against these forces. There's even the one class that's built around directly battling demons. The mages should therefor have more value than they're given, especially the Wu Shih. It's more like the Wu Shih was reluctantly included but restricted enough that players will consider it worthless enough to go with a 'proper' non-magical Martial Artist OCC instead. Much like how Psionics is always dealt a range of extra, unnecessary restrictions and treated like an unwanted add-on by AD&D where the writers don't like that players want to get psionics in their magic so technically give them what they want but do what they can to hinder it so the players will pick a 'proper' magic class instead.

Actually, read the Demon Queller OCC again, as it empahises my point. Dispite the name, they are explicitly stated as not being ACTUALLY intended to take demons head on, instead they know demon weaknesses and how to trick and exploit and outsmart them. It says in at least 3 places attempts to simply run up and fight the demon is likely going to end very very badly for them.

You ARE supposed to drive off demonic threats by being clever. If your GM dosn't let you, that's his own fault.

[Sgt Anjay]

Wait...

Channeling one's chi to combat opponents who wield its polar opposite in the structure of existence isn't mystic things? Achieving a meditative position so that you plug yourself like a missing puzzle piece into the universe to achieve an effect isn't mystic things? Avoiding an attack by becoming one with the universe isn't mystic things?

Just because its martial arts, doesn't mean it isn't mystic.

[Nightmask]

Wait...

Channeling one's chi to combat opponents who wield its polar opposite in the structure of existence isn't mystic things? Achieving a meditative position so that you plug yourself like a missing puzzle piece into the universe to achieve an effect isn't mystic things? Avoiding an attack by becoming one with the universe isn't mystic things?

Just because its martial arts, doesn't mean it isn't mystic.

Just because it's Martial Arts the actual magic users shouldn't be made non-mystical just for the sake of the martial artists. They should be as important as everyone else and able to contribute as much at least if not more in such a setting.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Just because it is mystical (as in not of the material world) does not mean it is magical (as in 'It Magic').

In the PB megaverce if it does not use PPE then it is not magic.
(aside: yes, there are powers that use PPE that are not magic.)

[Nightmask]

It's because wizards easially dominate in every game they feature in. If they had a full powered wizard with large PPE reserves and access to spells they would simply replace martial arts as the path to power entirely.

I can't see a Wu Shih easily dominating anything, not with that weak spell list and so many spells that the only point to include them is for NPC supernatural creatures because the human Wu Shih can never achieve that much PPE.

Exactly my point. It's a balancing feature.

Except it's not a balancing feature, it's not making Wu Shih more comparable to the other classes it's making them inherently weaker.

That's because without such restrictions they would be inherently stronger. If they had access to a full martial art, they would be worldly martial artists with magic, thus rendering the worldly martial artist obsolete.

And that's really that much different than the LLW with HtH: MA? Don't think so, every other mage class gets full access to combat development and no reason that the Wu Shih shouldn't either, especially since by your argument they ought to be balancing that with magic and they don't. They have nothing in the end. Can't learn to fight better at all and can't work that many spells and most aren't that useful.

Feng Shi have no restrictions on level advancement while having spell-casting ability, neither do Tao Shih.

That's because both have heavy restrictions on the types of spells they can learn. Feng Shi can only learn geomatic spells, and Tao Shih can only learn spells with the tag saying they are compatible with celestial calligraphy. This leaves most of the more powerful spells completely unavaible to them. Wu Shih can learn any spell AND can learn Western Ley Line Walker magic to boot. that necessites restrictions in other areas for balance.

Most of the Wu Shih spells aren't available either, because they're costly in PPE and the Wu Shih even if he got to 15th level rolling max dice rolls all the way will only have 76 PPE which isn't going to make for covering most higher level spells, has zero ability to gain PPE from the surroundings, and no real access to those western mage spells to learn them and again those spells are only as useful as the Wu Shih's available PPE which isn't much.

Why then the Wu Shih when their spells are already nerfed such that the materials available to the Martial Artists are superior? Also why single out the Wu Shih if as you say wizards are inherently superior and are written so in every other RPG from Palladium? Why for this one class are they seen as such a threat they might as well not have been included at all if they're seen as so awesomely powerful?

Because they wanted to include SOME magic without letting them dominate, because it's still supposed to be a Kung-Fu game. Thus the very heavily restricted spellcasting classes. They are avaible, but generally not always preferable.

So where exactly is that written? Afraid I haven't seen anything about 'Mystic China is all about Martial Artists, mystical types like Wu Shih need not apply'. Seems like you're really slanting it as all about combat and the Martial Artists battling it out, while simultaneously saying elsewhere that combat's discouraged and should be all about thinking which would place the emphasis on the Wu Shih who's the educated one in all things mystical not the Martial Artist.

Note that you're using Ley Line Walkers as an example, with a far more impressive spell list available to them than the Wu Shih has. Some of the examples like Superhuman Speed and Strength aren't even available as spells to Wu Shih but are available to any Martial Artist who can use Body Chi (including the Wu Shih), so it's not like the Wu Shih is going to be tossing off such an assortment of spells with limited PPE and no spells capable of those things even available to them. Really makes little sense when they're already kept with just a thimble of PPE and almost no chance of acquiring it from outside sources to keep them from at least advancing as a MA like everyone else on top of everything else.

Yes, that's exsactly the point. They are limited in this way so you can't play them like a ley line walker. So what's the problem?

That you can't play them like mages either? Every class should have something that makes it good and let it provide useful benefits and mages are the spell-casting side of things compared to the Gigmoteer's technology side. When you're dealing with the mystical it's the mage that gives you the best shot against these forces NOT the martial artists. He's the one that helps prepare them and provide them with ways of dealing with these threats and fight alongside them in a secondary role if he's got nothing left to work with.

I mean there's no point to a Mystic China supplement when your intention is to have the mystical characters be fairly worthless and only the Martial Artists and Superspies have any real ability. Plus it's not like there aren't stories enough to support the idea of mages with exceptional MA ability to fall back on, at the least for defensive purposes. That and if wizards so easily dominate every game then why are any of those mage OCC allowed to select anything beyond HtH: Basic and have it capped at say 3rd level? If the idea is that mages are just too powerful no matter how poor the spell list or lacking in mystical energy then why are all other mages not restricted to little or no combat skills so that they're all helpless without their magic?

Magic in mystic china is ment to be more the Pulp kind of magic rather than the classical fantasy kind. Magic is strange, difficult, and extremely rare. Even those who use it spent long years accumulating a mere handful of powers. And then you have horrifying Demonic forces which have mastered all kinds of magic and are physically extremely tough to boot. Even a basic infernal is extremely dangerous, the more powerful ones are downright horrorfying. They're ment to be outsmarted, not out blasted.

If that were so there wouldn't be such emphasis placed on Martial Artists then and making them more powerful than the magic classes available in a setting that's all about mystical things.

That's because it's not all about mystical things. It's still about Ninja's and Superspys. that's why it's a supplement and not it's own game. It's there so you CAN inject some orential style mysticisem into your Spys vs Ninja game, not to put the sole focus on it. concequently, the magic there is nerfed to the point it cannot dominate the overall game.

Except Mystic China isn't about Ninjas and Superspies battling it out, it's its own unique setting with uniquely mystical threats presented. Which is where I believe you're missing the point. Oriental Adventures is an Add-on to AD&D but it's decidedly not about the Western style world elsewhere. Mystic China is about the mysterious world in Hong Kong and the greater Asian area of China. Of which you keep handwaving away the fact that the focus is on the mysticism and keep insisting its all about the Martial Artists when it isn't, and the Wu Shih should be able to stand side-by-side with them rather than be treated as an unwanted requirement.

There's no less emphasis on combat and physically defeating opponents in Mystic China than there is in any other setting from Palladium. You don't drive off demonic threats being clever unless you're running a great bluff and most of the time that just doesn't cut it and you're forced to have to fight generally to the death against these forces. There's even the one class that's built around directly battling demons. The mages should therefor have more value than they're given, especially the Wu Shih. It's more like the Wu Shih was reluctantly included but restricted enough that players will consider it worthless enough to go with a 'proper' non-magical Martial Artist OCC instead. Much like how Psionics is always dealt a range of extra, unnecessary restrictions and treated like an unwanted add-on by AD&D where the writers don't like that players want to get psionics in their magic so technically give them what they want but do what they can to hinder it so the players will pick a 'proper' magic class instead.

Actually, read the Demon Queller OCC again, as it empahises my point. Dispite the name, they are explicitly stated as not being ACTUALLY intended to take demons head on, instead they know demon weaknesses and how to trick and exploit and outsmart them. It says in at least 3 places attempts to simply run up and fight the demon is likely going to end very very badly for them.

Actually maybe you should recheck the Demon Hunter OCC, they're definitely designed to fight demons (they wouldn't have a Demon Wrestling skill if they weren't actually going HtH with demons), and do it head-on as well. But simply killing or defeating one isn't enough because it'll likely somehow return to terrorize people elsewhere, hence why they focus on utterly humiliating or finding ways to trick them into binding agreements as a more permanent solution to things.

You ARE supposed to drive off demonic threats by being clever. If your GM dosn't let you, that's his own fault.

That is certainly one way, but demons aren't unstoppable creatures beyond human ability to deal with. At least the ones loose in the mortal world of Mystic China. Only the higher tier sorts that a PC would never deal with are presented without stats and are clearly meant to be so powerful only the luckiest, most prepared, most trained, and most powerful of groups could hope to defeat one.

However you slice it if you're playing in a mystical setting then by logic and all common sense the magical characters should be at least as important as everyone else if not more important. Someone who can provide the answers and the spells to overcome what brute force can't, rather than being emasculated so that ONLY brute force is an option and if that won't work the party is helpless. That's what the mage does, he equalizes things, brings the unbeatable down where the team can beat it.

[Sgt Anjay]

Wait...

Channeling one's chi to combat opponents who wield its polar opposite in the structure of existence isn't mystic things? Achieving a meditative position so that you plug yourself like a missing puzzle piece into the universe to achieve an effect isn't mystic things? Avoiding an attack by becoming one with the universe isn't mystic things?

Just because its martial arts, doesn't mean it isn't mystic.

Just because it's Martial Arts the actual magic users shouldn't be made non-mystical just for the sake of the martial artists.

They're not non-mystical, but they aren't in a fantasy-genre setting either.

They should be as important as everyone else and able to contribute as much at least if not more in such a setting.

Why? Not how Palladium works, as a rule. Not that I'm convinced they're all that worthless, though the level-3 freeze is an oddity I'm not that fond of either.

[Nightmask]

Wait...

Channeling one's chi to combat opponents who wield its polar opposite in the structure of existence isn't mystic things? Achieving a meditative position so that you plug yourself like a missing puzzle piece into the universe to achieve an effect isn't mystic things? Avoiding an attack by becoming one with the universe isn't mystic things?

Just because its martial arts, doesn't mean it isn't mystic.

Just because it's Martial Arts the actual magic users shouldn't be made non-mystical just for the sake of the martial artists.

They're not non-mystical, but they aren't in a fantasy-genre setting either.

Neither are Nightbane Sorcerers (human or Nightbane versions), it's a quite modern setting with mystical events going on, and Mystic China is decidedly more fantasy than Nightbane. N&SS may not be mystical but Mystic China very much is, right down to having actual demons possibly joining your team trying to redeem themselves. Definitely fantasy setting level activities.

They should be as important as everyone else and able to contribute as much at least if not more in such a setting.

Why? Not how Palladium works, as a rule. Not that I'm convinced they're all that worthless, though the level-3 freeze is an oddity I'm not that fond of either.

The Level 3 lock on the MA is just part of the overall problems with the class. Many spells are weak or have little use both for the Mage and for helping others, PPE is kept extremely low (the Mystic China OCC for spell-casters seem to be the only ones that don't have regular level increases to PPE and never gain anything but a 1d6 increase) which limits how many of the few spells that they can actually cast they can cast, and even the option of them learning western spells is pretty much non-existent unless the GM brings in western style Sorcerers to teach them spells and learning new spells isn't easy for either group. The average Wu Shih even by 15th level won't reach more than 60 or so Chi so the Feng Shi or other MA with say Tai Chi will have far more chi than the spellcaster who could best use it and most needed it.

[Sgt Anjay]

Wait...

Channeling one's chi to combat opponents who wield its polar opposite in the structure of existence isn't mystic things? Achieving a meditative position so that you plug yourself like a missing puzzle piece into the universe to achieve an effect isn't mystic things? Avoiding an attack by becoming one with the universe isn't mystic things?

Just because its martial arts, doesn't mean it isn't mystic.

Just because it's Martial Arts the actual magic users shouldn't be made non-mystical just for the sake of the martial artists.

They're not non-mystical, but they aren't in a fantasy-genre setting either.

Neither are Nightbane Sorcerers (human or Nightbane versions), it's a quite modern setting with mystical events going on, and Mystic China is decidedly more fantasy than Nightbane. N&SS may not be mystical but Mystic China very much is, right down to having actual demons possibly joining your team trying to redeem themselves. Definitely fantasy setting level activities.

Just because Nightbane is urban or modern doesn't mean it isn't fantasy. Modern/urban fantasy is a rather well represented genre.

Mystic China, though, is rooted in Wuxia, or at least an approximation thereof.

They should be as important as everyone else and able to contribute as much at least if not more in such a setting.

Why? Not how Palladium works, as a rule. Not that I'm convinced they're all that worthless, though the level-3 freeze is an oddity I'm not that fond of either.

The Level 3 lock on the MA is just part of the overall problems with the class. Many spells are weak or have little use both for the Mage and for helping others, PPE is kept extremely low (the Mystic China OCC for spell-casters seem to be the only ones that don't have regular level increases to PPE and never gain anything but a 1d6 increase) which limits how many of the few spells that they can actually cast they can cast, and even the option of them learning western spells is pretty much non-existent unless the GM brings in western style Sorcerers to teach them spells and learning new spells isn't easy for either group. The average Wu Shih even by 15th level won't reach more than 60 or so Chi so the Feng Shi or other MA with say Tai Chi will have far more chi than the spellcaster who could best use it and most needed it.

The spellcaster who could use it best? Why would spellcasters be better than chi masters at using chi?

So you don't like the way the magic of the wuxia setting is handled. Got it. That perfectly fine, but it doesn't make the book or class wrong, just different in scope and style than what you're looking for. The class is extremely tuned to the setting; the spells very thematic and attuned to the world in which they exist. The option of learning invocation spells keeps options open; you assume the "normal" (western-style) invocations have to be treated as foreign. They don't. The Chi Arcanist can find an ancient scroll written in Heavenly Jade Script, and oh by the way the spell he just learned works just like magic net or carpet of adhesion or (sigh) fireball. As for PPE...you seem to assume N&S has to have as much ambient magic as other settings; it doesn't. Magic could easily be at a lower ebb than the world of HU or NB or BTS. Or maybe there just aren't alot of firebolt and lightning duels in wuxia, and that's reflected in the setting.

[Nekira Sudacne]

That's because without such restrictions they would be inherently stronger. If they had access to a full martial art, they would be worldly martial artists with magic, thus rendering the worldly martial artist obsolete.

And that's really that much different than the LLW with HtH: MA? Don't think so, every other mage class gets full access to combat development and no reason that the Wu Shih shouldn't either, especially since by your argument they ought to be balancing that with magic and they don't. They have nothing in the end. Can't learn to fight better at all and can't work that many spells and most aren't that useful.

Except for the reasons i've mentioned already. So yes, if you dismiss all the actual reasons, there's no reason. Sadly, logic dosn't work that way.

Feng Shi have no restrictions on level advancement while having spell-casting ability, neither do Tao Shih.

That's because both have heavy restrictions on the types of spells they can learn. Feng Shi can only learn geomatic spells, and Tao Shih can only learn spells with the tag saying they are compatible with celestial calligraphy. This leaves most of the more powerful spells completely unavaible to them. Wu Shih can learn any spell AND can learn Western Ley Line Walker magic to boot. that necessites restrictions in other areas for balance.

Most of the Wu Shih spells aren't available either, because they're costly in PPE and the Wu Shih even if he got to 15th level rolling max dice rolls all the way will only have 76 PPE which isn't going to make for covering most higher level spells, has zero ability to gain PPE from the surroundings, and no real access to those western mage spells to learn them and again those spells are only as useful as the Wu Shih's available PPE which isn't much.[/quote]

Right. because Rituals don't exsist in Ninja's and Superspys. Oh wait...

Again, this ties more into the Wuxia style of magic. Most spells are supposed to be Ritualistic and difficult. the fact that the mage has few PPE is a feature, not a bug. They're supposed to have to wait for astrological events or use rituals or find Vajra's to use as PPE batteries.

Why then the Wu Shih when their spells are already nerfed such that the materials available to the Martial Artists are superior? Also why single out the Wu Shih if as you say wizards are inherently superior and are written so in every other RPG from Palladium? Why for this one class are they seen as such a threat they might as well not have been included at all if they're seen as so awesomely powerful?

Because they wanted to include SOME magic without letting them dominate, because it's still supposed to be a Kung-Fu game. Thus the very heavily restricted spellcasting classes. They are avaible, but generally not always preferable.

So where exactly is that written? Afraid I haven't seen anything about 'Mystic China is all about Martial Artists, mystical types like Wu Shih need not apply'. Seems like you're really slanting it as all about combat and the Martial Artists battling it out, while simultaneously saying elsewhere that combat's discouraged and should be all about thinking which would place the emphasis on the Wu Shih who's the educated one in all things mystical not the Martial Artist.

Not really. I said that martial arts is given a greater emphasis than magic. Oddly enough, statements don't automatically extend to extremes.

Note that you're using Ley Line Walkers as an example, with a far more impressive spell list available to them than the Wu Shih has. Some of the examples like Superhuman Speed and Strength aren't even available as spells to Wu Shih but are available to any Martial Artist who can use Body Chi (including the Wu Shih), so it's not like the Wu Shih is going to be tossing off such an assortment of spells with limited PPE and no spells capable of those things even available to them. Really makes little sense when they're already kept with just a thimble of PPE and almost no chance of acquiring it from outside sources to keep them from at least advancing as a MA like everyone else on top of everything else.

Yes, that's exsactly the point. They are limited in this way so you can't play them like a ley line walker. So what's the problem?

That you can't play them like mages either? Every class should have something that makes it good and let it provide useful benefits and mages are the spell-casting side of things compared to the Gigmoteer's technology side. When you're dealing with the mystical it's the mage that gives you the best shot against these forces NOT the martial artists. He's the one that helps prepare them and provide them with ways of dealing with these threats and fight alongside them in a secondary role if he's got nothing left to work with.

Correction: You can't play them as the classic D&D/Palladium fantasy style spellslinging mage, because they were never ment to be played that way. They wern't ment to be played like martial artists either.

They were ment to be played like classic wuxia taoist mages: People who spent a long time gathering what power they could, who used their wits, and who in general, well, couldn't sling spells like a ley line walker.

how do I know they were ment to be played this way? because that's what the mechanics support

I think this is really the disconnect we're having here. You want your mages to be played in a more traditional RPG way, wherein they use mighty magics or at least are decent in a fight.

The fact that they can't do either isn't because the OCC is broken or poorly designed, it's just designed to be a style of mage you don't like. THAT is why they are this way when, as you point out "No other mage is handicapped this way with hand to hand ability". your right.

because the wu shih is supposed to be different from every other mage in palladium.

This isn't some vast mistake, it's not like Eric Wujik somehow forgot how every other mage in the game was designed. he did it deliberately.

I mean, do you honestly think the fact that the authors really didn't realize that the wu shih is far weaker than any other mage in palladium by accident is easier to beleive than they did it by design?

[JuliusCreed]

Do you think it's an accident that the Tao Shih can make Vajra? http://www.palladiumbooks.com/forums/vi ... 4&t=122295

Remember, these are chinese taoist mages, NOT Gandalf Stormcrow. They are modeled after the wise, contemplative, and most importantly patient Taoist hermits in the flavor of Lau Tzu. You should be looking for ways to make little changes with big effects, and be patient enough to let them work. Where your ley line walker shatters a cliff face with an eathquake to close a pass, a Wu Shih would freeze the water in the same cliff face, and let nature take her course.

If you want a spell slinging monster stomper, rift in a ley line walker. If you want to force demons to do your will, rift in a summoner. If you want to have a plethora of unusal abilities, some usefull some not, and alternate between long periods of contemplative observation and driving your companions crazy with witty parables, and philosophical discussions, then the Wu Shih is your man. (Note, the ability to sound like everything you say has been ripped right out of a fortune cookie doesn't hurt.)

This.
Your arguments have been nullified.

[Nightmask]

Do you think it's an accident that the Tao Shih can make Vajra? http://www.palladiumbooks.com/forums/vi ... 4&t=122295

Remember, these are chinese taoist mages, NOT Gandalf Stormcrow. They are modeled after the wise, contemplative, and most importantly patient Taoist hermits in the flavor of Lau Tzu. You should be looking for ways to make little changes with big effects, and be patient enough to let them work. Where your ley line walker shatters a cliff face with an eathquake to close a pass, a Wu Shih would freeze the water in the same cliff face, and let nature take her course.

If you want a spell slinging monster stomper, rift in a ley line walker. If you want to force demons to do your will, rift in a summoner. If you want to have a plethora of unusal abilities, some usefull some not, and alternate between long periods of contemplative observation and driving your companions crazy with witty parables, and philosophical discussions, then the Wu Shih is your man. (Note, the ability to sound like everything you say has been ripped right out of a fortune cookie doesn't hurt.)

This.
Your arguments have been nullified.

No, not really. Being free to make Mystic Vajra isn't a given, particularly the more costly ones in PPE and we're talking the actual character not pumping it up with external gear. Only the most worthless character would fail to prove being useful when provided with the best gear for their class.

The ability to make the Vajra doesn't negate the ridiculous restriction on MA advancement that outside of the Antiquarian (an NPC class) no other OCC suffers from being unable to advance their combat ability. If anything it's quite contrary to the idea of the class that it can't continue to advance in the very MA that provided them the insights to learn Chinese magic. You would think they like the Fang Shih would continue to advance their MA knowledge and learning more ways of working with chi which is the core of their spell-casting class.

The ability to make Vajra does nothing to justify the extremely pitiful base PPE and worse PPE advancement, especially given their advancement of Chi is just as pitiful. This for a class that's dependent as much or moreso on Chi as it is on PPE.

One rarely sees Vajra in general so something about making them generally selects against mass-production of them so you can keep stacking PPE/Chi to build even better ones. Likely the fact that Wh Shih are so pitifully limited on PPE in the first place that even at the highest levels it's almost impossible to make them. Remember that Wu Shih are explicitly prevented in Mystic China from gaining ANY PPE from Ley Lines or Nexus Points AND they can't even draw it from other people either. They're one of the most pitifully nerfed magic classes in the entire Palladium Megaverse.

[Nightmask]

You missed the whole point, let me re-post it so that hopefully you can understand. as for your argument about them being costly - read the linked post.

Remember, these are chinese taoist mages, NOT Gandalf Stormcrow. They are modeled after the wise, contemplative, and most importantly patient Taoist hermits in the flavor of Lau Tzu. You should be looking for ways to make little changes with big effects, and be patient enough to let them work. Where your ley line walker shatters a cliff face with an eathquake to close a pass, a Wu Shih would freeze the water in the same cliff face, and let nature take her course.

If you want a spell slinging monster stomper, rift in a ley line walker. If you want to force demons to do your will, rift in a summoner. If you want to have a plethora of unusal abilities, some usefull some not, and alternate between long periods of contemplative observation and driving your companions crazy with witty parables, and philosophical discussions, then the Wu Shih is your man. (Note, the ability to sound like everything you say has been ripped right out of a fortune cookie doesn't hurt.)

I'm terribly sorry that your imagination limits your view of "power" to big numbers on your character sheet. The Wu Shih is obviously NOT for you. The Wu Shih's power does not lie in tossing around fireballs and lightningbolts, it lies in observation, and subtle manipulation. If you lack the imagination to see how the Dragon Chi chi ability and the convert Chi to PPE spell can be abused, along with how to abuse the Vajra creation rules, and celestial calligraphy, then you simply fail to see how to use the power available to you. And what would a Taoist mystic be without his "good luck charms" and "Dragon bones" along with assorted powders, pills and oddities? If you want a Western spell slinging mage, play a western mage. That is NOT the Wu Shih. The Wu Shih is not "Gimped", it merely requires a different play style, and more imagination to bring to their true glory. Munchkins in general lack the imagination to play a Wu Shih, mostly because they are unwilling to switch from their "bash it, burn it, rape it, steal it" mindset. These are the same people who play a rogue scientist in rifts and then whine when they get in a fist fight with an adult dragon and lose.......

I'm sorry you feel the need to be on the condescending side and felt the need to imply that all I care about is power, and bringing up suggestions that at no point have I ever even remotely suggested to be my concern with the character, then follow it up with an insult to my level of imagination for disagreeing with you.

I also take offense at being called a munchkin and called a 'bash it, burn it, rape it, steal it' style player because I disagree with your assessment as to what the Wu Shih class is meant for, while you fail to address ANY of my complaints about the OCC.

[Regularguy]

One rarely sees Vajra in general so something about making them generally selects against mass-production of them so you can keep stacking PPE/Chi to build even better ones. Likely the fact that Wh Shih are so pitifully limited on PPE in the first place that even at the highest levels it's almost impossible to make them

Of course not; that's what celestial calligraphy is for.

[Nightmask]

Well let me see if I can sum up your complaints as I understand them.

1. The Wu Shih is NOT a martial artist and does not develop into a master of the martial arts. This is true, the Wu Shih cast aside his interest in the martial arts in order to better understand Chi and mystic contemplation.

Something that does not interfere with any other mages ability to learn and develop their magic, including the Mystic OCC. They can all continue to become more proficient in their hand-to-hand skills whether it's HtH: Basic or all the way to HtH: Martial Arts or Assassin. They all manage just fine and given it was their MA that attracted and inspired the Wu Shih's magical studies logically the MA that was the root of their discovery and inspiration is something that they'd continue to develop since it brought about their epiphany.

2. The Wu Shih does not develop enough Chi to function. False - Chi is everywhere, waiting to be tapped and drawn on, and provides enough energy for the Wu Shih to use the majority of his skills.

Chi comes in tiny amounts and you can't store up Chi, you have to use it as you channel it so this argument is false. The Wu Shih's starting chi and the occasional 1D6 added per level is all they really have to work with, and if they're really lucky they might be in a place that lets them have another 1-9 chi to add to that each melee round. Plus if you have to fight in a place of Negative Chi you aren't going to be making any use of the chi around you, not without being quite the rare sort of Wu Shih focused on Negative Chi rather than positive.

3. The Wu Shih does not have access to the PPE to cast his spells. False - The Wu Shih lacks ony personal PPE, which he has methods of countering (Dragon Chi and convert Chi to PPE), and if you have the patience to create your Vajra, a self refilling, potentially unmatchable PPE storage device, that can also store spells, as well as being able to store and regenerate chi on it's own. (Admittedly, it would take a decade to create a Vajra that would do all of the above in the same device.)

Wrong it's true. They don't have access to the PPE for many of their spells and we're given no reason to think Wu Shih can overcharge on PPE as mages can in the Rifts setting. That's the only setting where it specifically allows for mages to temporarily store up triple their base PPE. The pay-off for converting Chi to PPE is also extremely low, you only get one PPE point for six Chi points.

Siembada Has repeatedly said NOT ALL CLASSES ARE CREATED EQUAL some are more powerfull in unarmed combat, others are skill based, others manipulate thought and perception, some are powerfull in ranged combat, while others are there for pure RP purposes.

If a class does not fit your view of powerfull, and this bothers you, don't play them. In Rifts, I won't touch a GB pilot, to me they are a boring class with their 1 shot cannon, that doesn't make them broken - just not my cup of tea. I also won't play a vagabond in rifts, I lack the imagination required to bring out their full capabilities. Because I don't like them doesn't make them broken - they just aren't classes I enjoy playing.

You really need to stop confusing my issues with the class as being about how powerful or lacking in power it is. My complaint here has been about their ability to advance in their MA like every one of the other hundreds of OCC floating around Palladium including in Ninja and Superspies and Mystic China. It makes zero logical sense that they of all the classes would cease learning the secrets of their MA and continue to grow and advance, particularly since the MA is tied into their original development of Chi and discovering the existence of chi magic.

[Regularguy]

You really need to stop confusing my issues with the class as being about how powerful or lacking in power it is. My complaint here has been about their ability to advance in their MA like every one of the other hundreds of OCC floating around Palladium including in Ninja and Superspies and Mystic China.

Are you at all placated by them starting with 3rd-level skill in their MA? That it's not just a ceiling, but also a floor -- so they start off far enough ahead of various OCCs to pull their weight at 1st level and 2nd level and 3rd level while able to pile up celestial calligraphy aplenty to help along their mystical firepower at 4th level and 5th level and 6th level and so on?

It makes zero logical sense that they of all the classes would cease learning the secrets of their MA and continue to grow and advance, particularly since the MA is tied into their original development of Chi and discovering the existence of chi magic.

The instant they learned enough martial artistry to dedicate themselves full-time to chi magic, they threw themselves entirely into the latter, since it was the sole reason they took up the former? Every hour spent hitting the gym is an hour they'd rather spend inscribing celestial calligraphy? Works for me.

[Nightmask]

Are you at all placated by them starting with 3rd-level skill in their MA? That it's not just a ceiling, but also a floor -- so they start off far enough ahead of various OCCs to pull their weight at 1st level and 2nd level and 3rd level while able to pile up celestial calligraphy aplenty to help along their mystical firepower at 4th level and 5th level and 6th level and so on?

As I note later you're thinking of Tao Shih, Wu Shih require a specific spell to scribe some spells as celestial calligraphy. Celestial calligraphy doesn't exist for all spells either, and is rendered useless when subjected to the spell of Non-Ignition as they require being burned to use.

The instant they learned enough martial artistry to dedicate themselves full-time to chi magic, they threw themselves entirely into the latter, since it was the sole reason they took up the former? Every hour spent hitting the gym is an hour they'd rather spend inscribing celestial calligraphy? Works for me.

Tao Shih do the celestrial calligraphy thing, not Wu Shih. For which btw Tao Shih continue to advance in their MA normally so apparently the learning ow to better defend yourself and fight doesn't interfere with ones ability to learn and advance in their magic trade. Again you also ignore the fact that every other mage can learn how to become better in whatever MA they have even though they all have just as much necessity to spend time studying and learning their craft. There's nothing special about being a Wu Shih where it'd be so debilitating that you'd literally stop learning how to better protect yourself especially when much if not all of their experience required to level up is based on being out engaging others in combat and non-combat situations.

Even Diabolists, a class centered around having to scribe runes and do a lot of research are able to continue learning how to fight better.

[Regularguy]

As I note later you're thinking of Tao Shih

As I note right now, you're incorrect. I've replied to your points about the Wu Shih in multiple threads, repeatedly emphasizing celestial calligraphy, and am doing so again for the usual reason.

Celestial calligraphy doesn't exist for all spells either, and is rendered useless when subjected to the spell of Non-Ignition as they require being burned to use.

Otherwise they'd be overpowered?

Tao Shih do the celestrial calligraphy thing, not Wu Shih.

Drop the absolutist statements; they're not your friends.

[Nightmask]

As I note later you're thinking of Tao Shih

As I note right now, you're incorrect. I've replied to your points about the Wu Shih in multiple threads, repeatedly emphasizing celestial calligraphy, and am doing so again for the usual reason.

Wu Shih have limited ability to make Celestial Calligraphy due to spell, only Tao Shih may craft it as a class ability. The spell may not be available to a particular Wu Shih but I didn't reject the idea because some may have access to it. But having access to the spell and being able to get away with the limited access of creating Celestial Calligraphy via spell doesn't change the fact that Wu Shih as a rule cannot actually create Celestial Calligraphy. Tao Shih create Celestial Calligraphy, Wu Shih who have a spell can fake it.

Celestial calligraphy doesn't exist for all spells either, and is rendered useless when subjected to the spell of Non-Ignition as they require being burned to use.

Otherwise they'd be overpowered?

What is your obsession with power? You either have a fixation on it to keep making everything an issue of power (after stating how 'hey the game isn't supposed to be balance' in quoting Kevin) or it's some tactic to try and undermine my point by making it out as if it's just because I'm all about power and that's a way of trying to imply the munchkin label without being blatant enough to get called for it.

You are the one who keeps bringing up Celestial Calligraphy (Something that Wu Shih don't actually have the ability to craft without the help of a spell, one that isn't a given the character will have), insisting how it balances things and implying that it can be useful everywhere when in fact it isn't. Many factors can interfere with the usefulness of it including not having a match handy to light one up or the wind being too strong, and since they likely scribed that with the spell after working some way around the PPE restrictions they aren't going to be able to cast it themselves when they really need it.

Tao Shih do the celestrial calligraphy thing, not Wu Shih.

Drop the absolutist statements; they're not your friends.

Drop the cherry-picking cutting out a single sentence and leaving out the rest of the text where I noted Wu Shih require a spell in order to scribe Celestrial Calligraphy, otherwise only Tao Shih can craft Celestial Calligraphy.

[JuliusCreed]

Okay, I've been following this for a while and finally decides to look up the Wu Shih. I can understand the arguments and do feel that maybe the level cap for the Wu Shih's Martial Art form may be a bit silly. Going strictly by a canon point of view, though it makes sense for the basic flavor of the OCC as noted here.

"All Wu Shih are retired martial artists. That means they devoted years to the study of a martial art form, but left it behind in the pursuit of magical power." Mystic China pg 67

Sounds to me like if you want to play a Wu Shih, you have to play pretty much along the lines of a guy that, for lack of a better description, changed OCC from a Martial Artist type at third level to become a Mage and threw himself fully into his study of the mystic arts, not neccessarily forsaking the arts of combat, but at least maintaining what he has already learned so he can at least defend himself.

Then there are the actual forms the Wu Shih can select from. A very limited list to choose from to say the least, but taking a closer look, they're actually pretty decent forms, even stuck at third level. Bok Pai (Crane Style) Kung Fu is probably the weakest one of the bunch along the lines of available MA Powers, but makes up for that with a really solid Hand to Hand set up. Hsing-I is a close second to the bottom of the list with a distinct lack of powers, though its exclusive Hua Chin power makes for a dangerous thing in a fight. Pao Chih and Thai Chi come in next in power with Pao Chih giving a strong level of Chi Mastery and the Animus powers while Tai Chi puts in a balanced mix of Chi Mastery and/or Special Katas and solid self defense along with a starting Zenjorike of choice. Then you look at Snake Style Kung Fu. let's face it, this form is feared almost as much as Tien-Hsueh Touch Mastery. It's weak physically but has a decent selection of internal arts, including starting wit 2 Zenjorike powers.

The thing that strikes me most about the complaints though is the 'lack' of PPE to power the Wu Shih's spells. I gotta admit topping out in the mid 70's is pretty weak. But in a purely Ninjas and Superspies/Mystic China setting, the Wu Shih reigns supreme as a PPE leader! Take a look at this!
Wu Shih base PPE: 6d6+10
Tao Shih base PPE: 6d6
Fang Shih base PPE 3d6+10
Mang Wu Blind Mystic base PPE: 2d6
Even the 'supernatural' RCC's in Mystic China pale in comaprison to a Wu Shih's PPE reserves... the Fox Spirit and Reformed Demon don't even have PPE being creatures of pure Chi. Now of course there are the ultimate arguments about how weak a Wu Shih is comapred to something like a Ley Line Walker or a PFRPG Wizard of a techno-Wizard or any number of other men of magic you can think of. But the bottom line is, a Wu Shih is not from those worlds. They are in a modern day, 20-21st century Earth, which, as most palladium players know, is probably one of the most magically dead worlds there is. Magic just isn't a High volume thing on modern day Earth and nothing reflects this better than the lower PPE base a Wu Shih has compared to the triple digit figures something like a Line walker can have in a world where magic is so prevalent its energy visibly ripples across the world in glowing blue lines. Also take note that only the Wu Shih can add to his list of known spells if he gets a chance to study any form of written magical invocations, including Celestial Calligraphy.

In the end my advice to you is simple; Don't play a Wu Shih unless the campaign you're running it in is strictly based in a Ninjas and Superspies/Mystic China world... No rifting in Ley Line Walkers, no Alien Wizards from Heroes Unlimited, no Demi-Gods from other planes... just regular every day martial artists, superspies... and Wu Shih.

Good luck and great gaming.

[Regularguy]

Tao Shih create Celestial Calligraphy, Wu Shih who have a spell can fake it.

My point is that Wu Shih who have the spell can do it; I wouldn't call that faking it, but don't much care what name you use so long as we don't disagree over what's important.

What is your obsession with power? You either have a fixation on it to keep making everything an issue of power (after stating how 'hey the game isn't supposed to be balance' in quoting Kevin)

I'm not the one who made that statement or that quote; you're not very good at keeping track of who's who.

or it's some tactic to try and undermine my point by making it out as if it's just because I'm all about power and that's a way of trying to imply the munchkin label without being blatant enough to get called for it.

I'm neither trying to make your point out to be that, nor trying to imply the "munchkin" label; you'd probably be better off asking questions instead of making statements.

Many factors can interfere with the usefulness of it including not having a match handy to light one up or the wind being too strong, and since they likely scribed that with the spell after working some way around the PPE restrictions they aren't going to be able to cast it themselves when they really need it.

But I'm not talking about using celestial calligraphy in the sense of lighting one up with a handy match when the wind isn't too strong; that a Wu Shih can use 'em under the right circumstances is mere icing on the cake. What intrigues me about 'em is that a Wu Shih can draw out what's stored within that portable source of extra PPE whenever his own personal PPE is insufficient to cast powerful high-level spells.

Again, you really should ask questions instead of making statements.

Drop the cherry-picking cutting out a single sentence

Don't make a single-sentence false statement in the first place; you'll avoid a lot of problems.

Wu Shih have limited ability to make Celestial Calligraphy due to spell, only Tao Shih may craft it as a class ability.

That part after the comma is a splendid irrelevance. I'm merely concerned with whether Wu Shih have the ability to make Celestial Calligraphy; you grant that they do; to interest me in the rest is another matter entirely.

Now, we could start a separate (but related) argument over whether the Wu Shih and the Tao Shih are balanced with regard to each other: at low levels, the Wu Shih has the advantage of starting off with extra SDC and PPE along with 3rd-level martial artistry, which could make all the difference to surviving while the other guy spends level after level trying to play catch-up -- but if they both survive to reach higher levels, the Tao Shih gets the advantage of being able to eventually gain greater martial artistry. (On the other hand, it's with Hsien Hsia, and, really, who are we kidding?) We could likewise compare the starting spells of each, figuring out how big a drawback the Tao Shih's ability to cast only certain spells stacks up against how the Wu Shih can spend level after level after level and et cetera learning other magic without limit (as per the intense interest they're supposed to have in that sort of thing). And if, upon so comparing them across the board, they are arguably balanced at present, then why give Wu Shih the ability to reach 15th-level martial artistry?

[Colt47]

So, can someone explain why we can't just give the PCC a normal hand to hand progression?

[JuliusCreed]

So, can someone explain why we can't just give the PCC a normal hand to hand progression?

There are 2 answers to this question...

1> You can't because the book says so.

2> You can because, despite the rules, it's still your game and the rules are still just a set of guidelines to use, modify, ignore or add to as you see fit.

Whichever answer is acceptable to you is the right one.

Good luck and great gaming!

[green.nova343]

BTS1 rules for the Arcanist: P.P.E. base is 6D6 plus 1D6 per additional level. So, on average, the BTS1 Arcanist starts with maybe an average of 21 P.P.E. (range of 6 to 36), and even by they time they hit 11th level they're only maybe looking at 56 or so P.P.E. And while the HU2 wizard is much higher in power (average P.P.E. 80+ at first level, ranging from 43 at worst to maybe 130 with maximum rolls of 6 on your P.E. attribute), they're representing heroic characters rather than "average" mages.

Not to mention that we're ignoring that Chi Magic is coming from not only a different mindset (the inherent "East vs. West" type of philosophy found in N&SS/Mystic China settings), but that the Chi practitioners also have an edge when physically in China:

No P.P.E. from ley lines & nexus points.

The "dragon lines", as they're known there, are controlled by the Chinese dragons, in a manner similar to the Atlantean Stone Pyramids from Rifts WB2:
-- no extra P.P.E. from line/nexus proximity
-- no boost in P.P.E. due to time of the day, calendar events, or lunar/solar/planetary cycles
The Chinese dragons use that energy for sustenance, which means the only way to access it is by asking them to "gift" it to you...unless the practitioner thinks they can steal the P.P.E. from the dragons (or worse, turn them into a blood sacrifice).

Chi, however, is available everywhere, even in areas that don't have ley lines. But Western mages have no way of accessing that Chi -- the HU Revised conversion rules in the back of N&SS specifically prohibit wizards from taking any of the specialized MA forms, so they have no chance at knowing Chi mastery techniques. That means that Western mages are limited to whatever their personal P.P.E. bases are, or maybe any amulets/talismans/other P.P.E. batteries they've stored. And that's assuming the Chi master doesn't use Draw Wall of Chi to build up a bunch of Chi (available Chi behind the wall increases to normal Chi flow x10 per melee the wall is up, with a minimum duration of 10 minutes per level). Nothing prevents the buildup of Chi except for the spell duration. So, even in a "regular flow" area (3 Chi/melee), a mid-level practitioner (5th level) can let the Chi build up until it reaches epic proportions (3 Chi/melee x10 x 4 melees/minute x 10 minutes/level x 5 levels = 6,000 Chi points, more than enough P.P.E. for all sorts of rituals). Even putting the wall up for just a short period of time can generate a lot of Chi (3 Chi/melee x 10 x 4 melees/minute x 1 minute = 120 Chi, which converts to 20 P.P.E.). Again, non-Chi masters can't access Chi, so this gives the Chi practitioner a way to access P.P.E. that the Western practitioner can't match.

And, of course, we also have the problem of Western mages even recognizing Chi magic. Sure, you could sense a Chi master's P.P.E. level...but I don't think Chi is detected with that, because it's outside Western magic's experience. N&SS specifically talks about how psionic & magic "shields" don't protect against Chi-based abilities, and vice-versa, or how Astral travelers can't interact with Mind Walk practitioners, because they're different "planes". Now, it might be up to a GM whether damage from the Cloud of Acid spell first has to damage a target's Armor of Ithan protection or if it bypasses it completely...but since Armor of Ithan doesn't provide the target with their own oxygen supply, it would provide no protection against Exhale Poison Cloud Blue (knockout) or Green (S.D.C. damage). Compare that, in fact, to Fire Ball (also a 10 P.P.E. spell):
-- Fire Ball does 1D6 S.D.C. per caster level, so it can range anywhere from 1D6 (beginning wizard, barely equivalent to a .22 rimfire cartridge) to 15D6 for a very high-level wizard (roughly equivalent to a .50 BMG round from the M2 Browning machine gun), but as a one-shot attack.
-- Green Poison Cloud does 1D6 S.D.C. per point of Negative Chi used; with their Chi levels, even a 1st-level Chi master could pump in 5-10 Chi points, giving it 5D6 (equivalent to the .223 M16 round) to 1D6x10 S.D.C. (equivalent to the 7.62mm NATO round) per melee round. Even at 1st level, the 4 melee rounds/level duration means even a "minor" cloud can inflict up to 2D6x10 S.D.C.... equivalent to a short machine-gun burst, or (more importantly) a couple of high-level Fire Balls. A mid-range Chi master (5th level) putting just 5 Chi into the cloud can inflict up to 1D6x100 S.D.C. on each target in the cloud before the spell runs out, unless they can hold their breath for 5 minutes or make their save vs. poison.

The question, of course, is whether Chi masters would venture away from China into the rest of the world, and how they would react to the ability to draw on the excess P.P.E. at ley lines & nexus points not controlled by the dragons. But, since they can draw on Western-style P.P.E. batteries, and the additional P.P.E. seems to be more of an innate effect of magic use (i.e. spells cast by a mage automatically draw on the ambient P.P.E. pool first) than a deliberate drawing of power by the mage, I think they would probably be able to do so.

So, in short, Chi masters simply represent a different way of using magic: not weaker, not better, just "other".

[green.nova343]

Almost forgot:

To respond to the initial topic of the Wu Shih's fixed martial arts ability:

That's no different than a Rifts character that starts off as a Juicer (HTH: Martial Arts), progresses to 3rd level, decides he's going to go through detox & switch O.C.C.s, & becomes a Body Fixer (no HTH training unless he spends 1 Related skill for HTH: Basic or 2 skills for HTH: Expert...& since switching O.C.C.s limits you on your skill selections in the new O.C.C. -- as in either half your Related picks & no Secondaries, or zero Related & Secondaries, can't remember which -- that most likely means you won't be picking a HTH form).

That character is now "permanently frozen" at 3rd level in his combat training, and doesn't have a good chance of having any improvement in it.

Is that "fair"? Of course! They switched from their initial training to a new career. And that's what the Wu Shih did: essentially, they started training in their MA form, became enamored of the study of Chi magic & mysticism, & essentially performed a mini O.C.C. change.

And remember, the other 2 Chi practitioners are limited on their spells (Geomantic only for the Fang Shih, Celestial Calligraphy for the Tao Shih). While some Wu Shih may be limited on their initial spell selections (as noted on the random table), they can learn any Chi spells later (as well as Western spells, should they so desire). Nor are they limited on how they learn their spells; if they can read & decipher it, & cast it successfully at least 1 time, it's added to their repertoire. No fancy rules for learning a spell, no requirement for a teacher or master, no worrying about the type of spell being learned (can learn the "normal" version of a spell from the Celestial Caligraphy variant with no penalty), no muss, no fuss. So while the other practitioners can boast of higher Chi pools, the Wu Shih's higher P.P.E. pool & greater flexibility more than makes up for any "combat" issues they supposedly have.

[thorr-kan]

BTS1 rules for the Arcanist
<SNIP!>

An excellent summary of why Wu Shih works as a mage. Your analysis is missing only one little detail: The BTS 1ED Arcanist has that lovely line about being able to cast any kind of magic"
"3. THE PRACTICED USE OF MAGIC
As already denoted, the character has the knowledge , training
and energy to use any type of magic . This is an automatic ability
resulting from mystic study and related skills. Specific spells,
circles and rituals each have their own requirements and limita
tions. See the magic section for details. "
-p51, BTS

[green.nova343]

BTS1 rules for the Arcanist
<SNIP!>

An excellent summary of why Wu Shih works as a mage. Your analysis is missing only one little detail: The BTS 1ED Arcanist has that lovely line about being able to cast any kind of magic"
"3. THE PRACTICED USE OF MAGIC
As already denoted, the character has the knowledge , training
and energy to use any type of magic . This is an automatic ability
resulting from mystic study and related skills. Specific spells,
circles and rituals each have their own requirements and limita
tions. See the magic section for details. "
-p51, BTS

Already covered in Mystic China, pp. 70-71.

The short answer is, they have 3 options:
#1: they spend a year in intense study, not only of Chi magic but also martial arts & Feng Shui. And even then, their progression is said to be limited ("1/3 normal progression", "rarely exceed 6th level"). However, this actually is the more flexible option.

#2: Either by coming across a book/scroll/mention of a Chi magic spell, or the assistance of a Wu Shih or Fang Shih, they can attempt to convert a particular Chi magic spell into a Western-style invocation spell. It's extremely time-intensive (1D4 +1/spell level months for a single spell), they have to roll on a table to see if they were successful (with some occasionally nasty side-effects, like having to review every spell they already know, Chi or Western, before they're able to cast them again; or having their Chi/P.P.E. temporarily drained, opening a mystic portal, etc.)...and they can't learn Geomantic or Living Cloud of Chi spells, nor does it apply to Celestial Calligraphy used by Tao Shihs.

#3: They can detect the P.P.E. in the Celestial Calligraphy papers that are already charged up, & with 5 minutes of instruction or the proper research will know how to use them. But in order to learn how to create their own, they have to spend five years learning the language (not your average Chinese)....assuming they can find a Tao Shih willing to share his secrets with a "foreign devil".

Not saying it's impossible...but it'd be easier for the Arcanist to learn a new spell from a grimoire he finds in the local university library than to learn Chi magic.

[Tor]

the HU Revised conversion rules in the back of N&SS specifically prohibit wizards from taking any of the specialized MA forms, so they have no chance at knowing Chi mastery techniques.

They could just change their OCC though.

[drewkitty ~..~]

the HU Revised conversion rules in the back of N&SS specifically prohibit wizards from taking any of the specialized MA forms, so they have no chance at knowing Chi mastery techniques.

They could just change their OCC though.

HU chars can't change their "class"....they don't have any "class."

[Nightmask]

the HU Revised conversion rules in the back of N&SS specifically prohibit wizards from taking any of the specialized MA forms, so they have no chance at knowing Chi mastery techniques.

They could just change their OCC though.

HU chars can't change their "class"....they don't have any "class."

Class, power category, no practical difference. In regards to the comment that starts this post Mystic China explicitly notes that a Western (i.e. any mage that's not a Chinese Wu Shih mage) mage can undergo a period of training in a suited chi-manipulating martial art in order to learn and cast Chi magic spells like a Wu Shih instead of having to convert them to a western style.

[eliakon]

the HU Revised conversion rules in the back of N&SS specifically prohibit wizards from taking any of the specialized MA forms, so they have no chance at knowing Chi mastery techniques.

They could just change their OCC though.

HU chars can't change their "class"....they don't have any "class."

But they could abandon what ever it is that they ARE to take an occ

[green.nova343]

the HU Revised conversion rules in the back of N&SS specifically prohibit wizards from taking any of the specialized MA forms, so they have no chance at knowing Chi mastery techniques.

They could just change their OCC though.

HU chars can't change their "class"....they don't have any "class."

Class, power category, no practical difference. In regards to the comment that starts this post Mystic China explicitly notes that a Western (i.e. any mage that's not a Chinese Wu Shih mage) mage can undergo a period of training in a suited chi-manipulating martial art in order to learn and cast Chi magic spells like a Wu Shih instead of having to convert them to a western style.

And also specifically mentions that they'll be limited in their abilities, even with the "familiarization" they've done. Remember, they have to take a year of intense study... which means they're effectively out of the game while studying (hopefully the player has another character they can use). And even after that, their progression is at "one-third normal", & "rarely progressing beyond 6th level". At best, that means that they'll earn 1/3 of the XP from every award when using Chi Magic (i.e. what normally would get them 150 XP only gets them 50).

As for changing O.C.C.s, HU Education results from the Random Education Tables <> other Palladium games' O.C.C.s, and Power Categories are most certainly not O.C.C.s. At best, they could change their magical "focus", as per the Mystic China rules...but then I'd rule that their abilities with Western magic has become frozen, while still dealing with the limited advancement in Chi magic. They'd be better off sticking with the conversion of Chi magic to invocation-style spells, to maintain their flexibility.

[Nightmask]

Class, power category, no practical difference. In regards to the comment that starts this post Mystic China explicitly notes that a Western (i.e. any mage that's not a Chinese Wu Shih mage) mage can undergo a period of training in a suited chi-manipulating martial art in order to learn and cast Chi magic spells like a Wu Shih instead of having to convert them to a western style.

And also specifically mentions that they'll be limited in their abilities, even with the "familiarization" they've done. Remember, they have to take a year of intense study... which means they're effectively out of the game while studying (hopefully the player has another character they can use). And even after that, their progression is at "one-third normal", & "rarely progressing beyond 6th level". At best, that means that they'll earn 1/3 of the XP from every award when using Chi Magic (i.e. what normally would get them 150 XP only gets them 50).

As for changing O.C.C.s, HU Education results from the Random Education Tables <> other Palladium games' O.C.C.s, and Power Categories are most certainly not O.C.C.s. At best, they could change their magical "focus", as per the Mystic China rules...but then I'd rule that their abilities with Western magic has become frozen, while still dealing with the limited advancement in Chi magic. They'd be better off sticking with the conversion of Chi magic to invocation-style spells, to maintain their flexibility.

To a degree Power Category IS equivalent to an OCC, look at the optional rules for replacing say the standard psychic with a psychic OCC from another system. Or just look at the cyborgs and robot pilots for that matter, no actual difference between them and a Cyborg or Robot Pilot OCC in Rifts. Heroes Unlimited is just especially focused on not letting you enjoy multi-classed characters even if they exist in the comics.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Class, power category, no practical difference. ...snip

I have tried to convert the MS Power Cat. into a class. So to me what you said sounds like you have not.

Power Cat's are not classes due to "There are not standard skills sets."

"What are Classes mostly?"---->"standard skills sets"

While they play "similar roles", they are not 'the same' nor 'equivalent.'

To insist that they are the same or equivalent is to not get the differences between the two.


Chars with a power cat. can not change "What Powers They Have" (what defines what power cat they have) but they can get more skills.

[Nightmask]

Class, power category, no practical difference. ...snip

I have tried to convert the MS Power Cat. into a class. So to me what you said sounds like you have not.

Power Cat's are not classes due to "There are not standard skills sets."

"What are Classes mostly?"---->"standard skills sets"

While they play "similar roles", they are not 'the same' nor 'equivalent.'

To insist that they are the same or equivalent is to not get the differences between the two.


Chars with a power cat. can not change "What Powers They Have" (what defines what power cat they have) but they can get more skills.

Right, that mage can't gain more spells (i.e. powers), that Cyborg can't add new weapons and systems (i.e. poers), that psionic can't gain more psioncs as he levels, etc. Clearly you've a flawed position to insist that a power category can't change what it has when it clearly can in many cases so insisting none can fails the test.

Clearly you also fail when you insist that the differences are more important than the similarities, particularly when the book clearly refers to using various OCC like the Techno-Wizard in case of standard power category selections like the Wizard. Other than minor modifications based on how one generally learns skills in Heroes Unlimited they have no practical difference. A Techno-Wizard in the Heroes Unlimited setting is going to have the same core skills as a Rifts Techno-Wizard, with the rest of his education based on the HU setting instead of the way skills are learned in Rifts. He's still able to learn new spells, build new unique devices, and could in practical terms learn another OCC and switch if desired.

[eliakon]

If your going to combine MC and HU, then your going to have to make some GMs calls on how the different pieces of the puzzle go together in that world. Neither book (nor N&SS itself) is 'mainstream' in that they have their own unique deviations from the 'megaversal' norms. When you try to combine those sorts of differences your going to need to make adjustments to make it fit. *shrugs*

[Nightmask]

If your going to combine MC and HU, then your going to have to make some GMs calls on how the different pieces of the puzzle go together in that world. Neither book (nor N&SS itself) is 'mainstream' in that they have their own unique deviations from the 'megaversal' norms. When you try to combine those sorts of differences your going to need to make adjustments to make it fit. *shrugs*

But no where near as big a deal as some make it out to be.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Clearly you've a flawed position to insist that a power category can't change what it has when it clearly can in many cases so insisting none can fails the test....snip...

Clearly you also fail when you insist that the differences are more important than the similarities, particularly when the book clearly refers to using various OCC like the Techno-Wizard in case of standard power category selections like the Wizard. ...snip

My position about whether or not a Power Cat. can or can not become another power cat or change to a class is based in that there are no published rules that allows such a thing to take place. This is the 'Duh' simple part of what I have already said that you have dismissed out of hand when it is The most important part of what I said. Even if I did say it assuming I was talking to people who would realize I said the core reason of my point. So all comes down to your ignoring me when I keep pointing out things that you say are allowable have no basis in published canon.

`This is due to that the Ed system in HU2 is much like our ed system in the here and NOW. Where you go to collage or get training is skills on the job. Which makes it closer to real life.

How are power cats different from classes... power cats are based on the powers and natures of the char, not their job or occupation. So if the char is to be able to move out of the power cat they were in they loose what powers they had. Sort of the same reasons a Psychic char would change from being a psychic, they would loose their powers and then choose some occupation to take up. And looky Psychic is a power cat too.*in a perky voice*

Everything in the quoted post was such and un-canon I can imagine why you dislike being called a munchkin.

Warning: User warned for trolling / flaming. - NMI

[Nightmask]

Clearly you've a flawed position to insist that a power category can't change what it has when it clearly can in many cases so insisting none can fails the test....snip...

Clearly you also fail when you insist that the differences are more important than the similarities, particularly when the book clearly refers to using various OCC like the Techno-Wizard in case of standard power category selections like the Wizard. ...snip

My position about whether or not a Power Cat. can or can not become another power cat or change to a class is based in that there are no published rules that allows such a thing to take place. This is the 'Duh' simple part of what I have already said that you have dismissed out of hand when it is The most important part of what I said. Even if I did say it assuming I was talking to people who would realize I said the core reason of my point. So all comes down to your ignoring me when I keep pointing out things that you say are allowable have no basis in published canon.

`This is due to that the Ed system in HU2 is much like our ed system in the here and NOW. Where you go to collage or get training is skills on the job. Which makes it closer to real life.

How are power cats different from classes... power cats are based on the powers and natures of the char, not their job or occupation. So if the char is to be able to move out of the power cat they were in they loose what powers they had. Sort of the same reasons a Psychic char would change from being a psychic, they would loose their powers and then choose some occupation to take up. And looky Psychic is a power cat too.*in a perky voice*

Drew that's completely your NON-CANON opinion on why they're called Power Categories instead of using OCC or other labels. Your opinions are not canon and you've done a fine job in the past in the Rifts forum displaying how you'll ignore what's canon when it doesn't agree with what you think and insist that canon isn't canon with handwaving right and left.

Everything in the quoted post was such and un-canon I can imagine why you dislike being called a munchkin.

Yeah, a TOTALLY uncalled for statement you should know better than to make.

[eliakon]

Well, back to the topic.....would anyone else find it to out there to allow the class to have H2H basic as a skill? Its not like the class is already brimming with skills anyway, and one more doesnt seem to be a huge difference.

[Nightmask]

Well, back to the topic.....would anyone else find it to out there to allow the class to have H2H basic as a skill? Its not like the class is already brimming with skills anyway, and one more doesnt seem to be a huge difference.

Well they should just advance in their starting Martial Art but they certainly deserve something that advances given no other character in the megaverse (outside of a few races that are so explicitly non-combat that they lose racial powers learning how to fight) is denied the ability to advance their martial art, even HtH: Basic is better than being forever locked at 3rd level combat ability.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Well, back to the topic.....would anyone else find it to out there to allow the class to have H2H basic as a skill? Its not like the class is already brimming with skills anyway, and one more doesnt seem to be a huge difference.

The Wu Shih is not a DMA so can not have more then one combat skill. And since the MAF is the basis of the char's interest in magic it can not be replaced.
So the answer to your question is "No".

[eliakon]

Well, back to the topic.....would anyone else find it to out there to allow the class to have H2H basic as a skill? Its not like the class is already brimming with skills anyway, and one more doesnt seem to be a huge difference.

The Wu Shih is not a DMA so can not have more then one combat skill. And since the MAF is the basis of the char's interest in magic it can not be replaced.
So the answer to your question is "No".

I am not talking about replacing the skill. I am talking about
1 MAF at level 3 AND 1 H2H skill (probably basic) at lv1

And the idea that ONLY a DMA can have 2 skills is for full MAFs....not to mention the idea that this is being treated as sort of a class change (though only sort of since it has one set of skills...but has a 'frozen' MAF from 'before') and the class as written has very VERY few skills.
And if allowed, would it be add H2H, or allow H2H to be taken as one of the characters tiny compliment of skills.