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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:37 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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I've been meaning to share this for awhile, and I keep forgetting.

No OCC in N&SS can take RPG Design, the Technical skill. (Mystic China OCCs can get this, so that's no fun.) It's +1 to PE and could be a good work-your-own-hours job. But it's not listed as a Secondary skill and no skill program that allows characters to pick a Technical skill. Am I missing anything?

(Yes, I'm aware it's probably Erick's joke.)


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:43 pm
  

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Monk

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I think you hit on the only one (that does not have prerequisites) that is ….difficult to acquire.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:33 pm
  

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Palladin

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thorr-kan wrote:
I've been meaning to share this for awhile, and I keep forgetting.

No OCC in N&SS can take RPG Design, the Technical skill. (Mystic China OCCs can get this, so that's no fun.) It's +1 to PE and could be a good work-your-own-hours job. But it's not listed as a Secondary skill and no skill program that allows characters to pick a Technical skill. Am I missing anything?

(Yes, I'm aware it's probably Erick's joke.)

As I recall they came right out and SAID that it was a joke at some point.
I can't recall where (I want to say the open house but I can't swear to it)

Yes, eventually it was made available when Mystic China came out.
And sure if your a Megaversalist its easy since you just treat N&SS as a source book for the other games.

But mainly its just a tongue in cheek joke poking fun at the RPG industry.

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:56 pm
  

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Knight

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I think a Mystic China OCC could take it multiple times to get a higher PE bonus.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 12:12 am
  

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Monk

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Unless a skill says it can be taken multiple times it can only be taken once.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:28 am
  

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Knight

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I imagine there is probably a rule like that in Rifts, but is that stated somewhere in N&SS? =)


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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:47 am
  

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The only texts in the modern canon I know of that lets a char take a skill a 2nd time are the cooking and language/lit skills. For different styles of cooking and different languages.

I do believe that in N&S (still in a contemporary to HU ed1), if cooking is taken as a secondary skill the char is allowed to take the skill again to raise it to professional level cooking.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
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Unread postPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:45 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The only texts in the modern canon I know of that lets a char take a skill a 2nd time are the cooking and language/lit skills. For different styles of cooking and different languages.

I do believe that in N&S (still in a contemporary to HU ed1), if cooking is taken as a secondary skill the char is allowed to take the skill again to raise it to professional level cooking.

*possibly ends the world by coming in on the side of drewkitty*

You can take art multiple times for different art skills, play musical instrument for different instruments, and Robot Combat Elite. Or well... any skill that has specializations really.

HOWEVER even in these instances your not really taking the same skill multiple times. What is happening is you are taking Language (Latin) and Language (Finnish) or Cooking (Thai) and Cooking (Tex-Mex) or Art (oil painting) and Art (ice sculpture) or Play Musical Instrument (Bagpipes) and Play Musical Instrument (Viola) or RCE (Warmonger) and RCE (Ulti-Max). In each case the qualifier in the parentheses makes the two skills actually be two different skills.

Also I am with Drew, the only skills that I know of that can be taken twice are certain domestic skills that can be taken two times to be of professional quality ant that only in some systems because not all the systems even allow that.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:42 am
  

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I feel compelled to mention that in the PFRPG book Mysteries of Magic 1 there is a ruleset (albeit optional) to take skills, most any skill, more than once, up to 5x or 6x if I recall.
I have had GMs use this rule outside PFRPG when there became an issue of duplicate skills being provided, and a swap of the duplicate was requested.

It isn't a N&SS rule, but it is out there.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:07 am
  

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13eowulf wrote:
I feel compelled to mention that in the PFRPG book Mysteries of Magic 1 there is a ruleset (albeit optional) to take skills, most any skill, more than once, up to 5x or 6x if I recall.
I have had GMs use this rule outside PFRPG when there became an issue of duplicate skills being provided, and a swap of the duplicate was requested.

It isn't a N&SS rule, but it is out there.

Pages 78&79
It is presented as optional.
The limits are....only one skill total, and % based skills are limited to a total of five times, and no h2h skills can be selected for this. I will leave the other details as an incentive to buy MoM1. :P
------
The only time, as an additional house rule, I would let a char have multiples of the same skill (+1 level each) is when multiple skill programs give the same skill. Which when making an agent of some sort from this setting could mean starting with WP Pistol @ L5. ;)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:34 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
13eowulf wrote:
I feel compelled to mention that in the PFRPG book Mysteries of Magic 1 there is a ruleset (albeit optional) to take skills, most any skill, more than once, up to 5x or 6x if I recall.
I have had GMs use this rule outside PFRPG when there became an issue of duplicate skills being provided, and a swap of the duplicate was requested.

It isn't a N&SS rule, but it is out there.

If we go outside the rules set its clear that you CAN'T take the same skill more than once with out a special exception to the rules.
This is because of this
RUE Page 229 wrote:
"Weapon Proficiencies (W.P.s), Piloting and most other skills can NOT be selected more than once to improve the quality of the skill or to get extra bonuses. Not every skill may be more than once (in fact, most of them may only be taken one time). Only the Domestic and Technical skill categories (And the occasional other skill that states as such) can be taken twice. Taking the skill a second time does not increase the Base Skill proficiency/Skill percentage unless otherwise noted, but raises the overall quality to a slick, professional level of presentation.

This I would say pretty clearly shows the intent of the system. Especially since the Domestic/Technical thing has been the only skills ever mentioned as being able to be taken twice ever before. Thus this seems to be pretty clear evidence that yes indeed, the intent was just to allow those two skill types, and only those two skill types, to be taken twice to upgrade to professional status.

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:46 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The only texts in the modern canon I know of that lets a char take a skill a 2nd time are the cooking and language/lit skills. For different styles of cooking and different languages.

I do believe that in N&S (still in a contemporary to HU ed1), if cooking is taken as a secondary skill the char is allowed to take the skill again to raise it to professional level cooking.

Mentioning special bonuses for taking certain skills twice is not the same as prohibiting other skills from being taken twice.


eliakon wrote:
If we go outside the rules set its clear that you CAN'T take the same skill more than once with out a special exception to the rules.
This is because of this
RUE Page 229 wrote:
"Weapon Proficiencies (W.P.s), Piloting and most other skills can NOT be selected more than once to improve the quality of the skill or to get extra bonuses. Not every skill may be more than once (in fact, most of them may only be taken one time). Only the Domestic and Technical skill categories (And the occasional other skill that states as such) can be taken twice. Taking the skill a second time does not increase the Base Skill proficiency/Skill percentage unless otherwise noted, but raises the overall quality to a slick, professional level of presentation.

This I would say pretty clearly shows the intent of the system. Especially since the Domestic/Technical thing has been the only skills ever mentioned as being able to be taken twice ever before. Thus this seems to be pretty clear evidence that yes indeed, the intent was just to allow those two skill types, and only those two skill types, to be taken twice to upgrade to professional status.

But RPG design IS a Technical skill :) check N&S page 36.

Also I think you put the wrong page number, 229 only has a CS history lesson. Does anyone know which page in RUE this quote is from?


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:59 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The only texts in the modern canon I know of that lets a char take a skill a 2nd time are the cooking and language/lit skills. For different styles of cooking and different languages.

I do believe that in N&S (still in a contemporary to HU ed1), if cooking is taken as a secondary skill the char is allowed to take the skill again to raise it to professional level cooking.

Mentioning special bonuses for taking certain skills twice is not the same as prohibiting other skills from being taken twice.


eliakon wrote:
If we go outside the rules set its clear that you CAN'T take the same skill more than once with out a special exception to the rules.
This is because of this
RUE Page 229 wrote:
"Weapon Proficiencies (W.P.s), Piloting and most other skills can NOT be selected more than once to improve the quality of the skill or to get extra bonuses. Not every skill may be more than once (in fact, most of them may only be taken one time). Only the Domestic and Technical skill categories (And the occasional other skill that states as such) can be taken twice. Taking the skill a second time does not increase the Base Skill proficiency/Skill percentage unless otherwise noted, but raises the overall quality to a slick, professional level of presentation.

This I would say pretty clearly shows the intent of the system. Especially since the Domestic/Technical thing has been the only skills ever mentioned as being able to be taken twice ever before. Thus this seems to be pretty clear evidence that yes indeed, the intent was just to allow those two skill types, and only those two skill types, to be taken twice to upgrade to professional status.

But RPG design IS a Technical skill :) check N&S page 36.

Also I think you put the wrong page number, 229 only has a CS history lesson. Does anyone know which page in RUE this quote is from?

Issue the first: It does not increase anything unless noted in any way just raises the overall quality to a slick, professional level of presentation since that is explicitly the only increase that taking it a second time gives.
Issue the third: it does not state that the skill can be taken an unlimited number of times, simply a second time.
Issue the third: My mistake that should be 299

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Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:00 am
  

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I'm more interested in getting the attribute bonus again, the +10% is icing.

As for the second time, well, the third time is the second time you've gotten the skill AFTER the first time, and the fourth time is the second time you got it after the first two times...

Consulting right column of 299, we have 3 unrestrictive statements:
>MOST other skills can not
>NOT EVERY skill can
>MOST of them may only

So we know over 50% of skills can only be taken once. Obviously less than 50% fulfills "not every". Without explicitly knowing though, it doesn't do anything.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:23 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
The only texts in the modern canon I know of that lets a char take a skill a 2nd time are the cooking and language/lit skills. For different styles of cooking and different languages.

I do believe that in N&S (still in a contemporary to HU ed1), if cooking is taken as a secondary skill the char is allowed to take the skill again to raise it to professional level cooking.

Mentioning special bonuses for taking certain skills twice is not the same as prohibiting other skills from being taken twice.

I regret to inform you that you misread what I wrote.

To bluntly clarify things to you. The Only Time in current canon allows a skill to be taken a multiple times is when learning a multiple languages/Lit, multiple cooking styles, and multiple types of art types.
Taking as a CCR skill multiple times to bump up the %'s &/or D20 bonuses %/or stat bonuses Is Not Allowed in Current Canon. As stated, it is only the domestic and technical secondary skills that can be twice to raise the quality of the skill from amiture to professional.


The N&S section would be noting what it (and 1st ed texts) had in them when talking about bringing secondary skills up to professional grade skills. I included this because someone would of brought it up anyways to support their own incorrect claim that any skill could be taken twice. Not to mention that this discussion is taking place In the N&S forum.

So dismissing the whole of my post, you quoted the entire post, as ""special bonuses"" is patently untrue.
Thou , from the M VP that if it is not specifically 'disallowed' by the rules that it is allowed, it would be the logical conclusion. Even thou the axiom is wrong.

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Last edited by drewkitty ~..~ on Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:14 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
I'm more interested in getting the attribute bonus again, the +10% is icing.

As for the second time, well, the third time is the second time you've gotten the skill AFTER the first time, and the fourth time is the second time you got it after the first two times...

Consulting right column of 299, we have 3 unrestrictive statements:
>MOST other skills can not
>NOT EVERY skill can
>MOST of them may only

So we know over 50% of skills can only be taken once. Obviously less than 50% fulfills "not every". Without explicitly knowing though, it doesn't do anything.

Correct
over 50% can only be taken once
This is because as noted only Domestic and Technical skills can be taken twice
Those two skills form far less than 50% of the skills.

As for the third, fourth, and beyond.
The skill say twice and says what you can do with twice.
To go beyond twice you would need to find supporting text that says you can continue to take it beyond the listed ability of these two skills to have a unique ability to be taken two times.

And the bonus STILL doesn't come up on time two, because as it specifically states that the only thing that you get on taking the skill the second time is that the skill becomes 'slick and professional'


So...
1) you need to find in text support for your claim that any skill can be taken a third time.
The burden of proof is on you because
1a) you are the one making a claim that is different than the status quo, ergo you are the one required to support your claim
1b) it is not our burden to disprove a negative
1c) I have demonstrated that the skill list has a ridged one time only policy for almost all skills, with a two times policy covering all exceptions; thus I have made a claim with supporting evidence and you will need to make an equally supported claim to demonstrate that it is wrong.
1d) Because it doesn't say I can't is not evidence. Because I have show that yes indeed it says you can't

2) you will need to find in text support for your claim that taking a skill twice will get you the stat bonus twice
the burden of proof is on you because
2a) you are the one making a claim that is different than the status quo, ergo you are the one required to support your claim
2b) it is not our burden to disprove a negative
2c) I have demonstrated that the rules on taking a skill twice have a set list of what you gain from doing so and that stat bonuses are not on it; thus I have made a specific claim with supporting evidence; there for you will need some sort of evidence of your onw when you make your claim that my claim is wrong. Nuh-uh is not evidence.

_________________
Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


It's RIFTS Earth; the impossible happens before breakfast, twice on Tuesdays. And if it hasn't, then the GM hasn't tried hard enough and the players are lazy. :D -DhAkael

Knowledge is Power, Power Corrupts, Study Hard


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:19 pm
  

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Comment: Arrrrgggghhhh!
As poorly as I've read the rules, no doubt I let someone have it anyway cuz I wasnt paying close attention to OCC skill selection.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:03 am
  

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
I regret to inform you that you misread what I wrote.

You have not established either of these things.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
To bluntly clarify things to you. The Only Time in current canon allows a skill to be taken a multiple times is when learning a multiple languages/Lit, multiple cooking styles, and multiple types of art types.

You are referring to the times we have been explicitly told about dual-selecting skills.

This does not establish explicit-tells are the ONLY times we are allowed to do something.

The default state is you can select skills freely, this is why the Physical category in particular contain a restriction against a 2nd selection. Categories not sharing that disclaimer do not have that restriction.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Taking as a CCR skill multiple times to bump up the %'s &/or D20 bonuses %/or stat bonuses Is Not Allowed in Current Canon. As stated, it is only the domestic and technical secondary skills that can be twice to raise the quality of the skill from amiture to professional.

Not sure what CCR stands for. I'm not seeing any text restricting double-selection to secondary skills or just those categories. The only printed exclusion is in the Physical skill category.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
So dismissing the whole of my post, you quoted the entire post, as ""special bonuses"" is patently untrue.

I had thought your 2nd paragraph was a continuation of your thoughts in the 1st, unclear what discrete other idea existed in that whole outside the special situations of the bonus +10% for 2nd selection domest/tech

eliakon wrote:
as noted only Domestic and Technical skills can be taken twice

This is a declaration from people HERE, not from the books itself.

eliakon wrote:
To go beyond twice you would need to find supporting text that says you can continue to take it beyond the listed ability of these two skills to have a unique ability to be taken two times.

No, you would not, since there is no printed rule (outside of the Physical skill category) restricting you from selecting skills you already have.

eliakon wrote:
And the bonus STILL doesn't come up on time two, because as it specifically states that the only thing that you get on taking the skill the second time is that the skill becomes 'slick and professional'

Tell me exactly where you found the word "only" in the books please.

eliakon wrote:
1) you need to find in text support for your claim that any skill can be taken a third time.
The burden of proof is on you because
1a) you are the one making a claim that is different than the status quo, ergo you are the one required to support your claim
1b) it is not our burden to disprove a negative
1c) I have demonstrated that the skill list has a ridged one time only policy for almost all skills, with a two times policy covering all exceptions; thus I have made a claim with supporting evidence and you will need to make an equally supported claim to demonstrate that it is wrong.
1d) Because it doesn't say I can't is not evidence. Because I have show that yes indeed it says you can't


1a) Status quo already has examples from Palladium of skills being selected multiple times (Domest/Tech as pointed out earlier, Prowl in Palladium RPG to get OCC bonus from 2 classes), and the existence of Physical Category text preventing multi-selection ABSENT in all other sections shows that multi-selection is status-quo.

1b) I am asking you to prove a positive, as you have claimed there is a rule preventing the choice of a skill you already possess.

1c) You haven't demonstrated any kind of one-time-only policy, just that a benefit is only listed for the 2nd instance of the skill. Not knowing the benefits for the 3rd instance does not make a 3rd instance impossible.

1d) No, you have not provided evidence it can't. This is not a "doesn't say I can't" situation. The "can" is the "of choice" text we often see. The player gets the choice, unrestricted unless there is text restricting it.

eliakon wrote:
2) you will need to find in text support for your claim that taking a skill twice will get you the stat bonus twice
the burden of proof is on you because
2a) you are the one making a claim that is different than the status quo, ergo you are the one required to support your claim
2b) it is not our burden to disprove a negative
2c) I have demonstrated that the rules on taking a skill twice have a set list of what you gain from doing so and that stat bonuses are not on it; thus I have made a specific claim with supporting evidence; there for you will need some sort of evidence of your onw when you make your claim that my claim is wrong. Nuh-uh is not evidence.

2) You get a bonus for selecting a skill. This is known. Unless it says something like "one time only" there is no reason to think you wouldn't get it again for a second instance of the skill.

2a) The status quo is no-restriction. The exception to this is the Physical skill category, which introduces a unique restriction against a 2nd selection of a skill.

2b) you are being asked to prove a positive (not disprove a negative) because you have claimed the positive presence of text restricting a player's choices, prohibiting him from choosing a skill he already has.

2c) there are no absolute "rules on taking a skill choice" as you have misleadingly phrased. Being told of special +10% bonuses for re-selected domestic skills (rules other categories lack) does not mean you cannot select non-domestics a 2nd time.


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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:35 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Taking as a CCR skill multiple times to bump up the %'s &/or D20 bonuses %/or stat bonuses Is Not Allowed in Current Canon. As stated, it is only the domestic and technical secondary skills that can be twice to raise the quality of the skill from amateur to professional.

Not sure what CCR stands for.

Talking about CCs.....Thus CCRs are Character Class's Related skills.

Axelmania wrote:
I'm not seeing any text restricting double-selection to secondary skills or just those categories. The only printed exclusion is in the Physical skill category.

To answer this I will repeat myself...
"Thou , from the M VP that if it is not specifically 'disallowed' by the rules that it is allowed, it would be the logical conclusion. Even thou the axiom is wrong."

I will translate this to the other side of the coin. ...If the rules do not specifically allowed something to happen, then it is not allowed under the canon rules.

I do believe, that that text was installed into RUE specifically, was put there so forestall M's from getting the idea "ohhhh....I can bump up my PP (or stats in gen.) by taking Gymnastics (or other phys skills) several times." Thus a change from the former MBs (like N&S's MB) where trusting that the text would not be twisted about by people who though that if it wasn't disallowed specifically, then it was allowed.

You still have not pointed out any text that specifically allows a player to double up skills outside the domestic skills. Which is the point you are trying to argue for.

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Q's on this board need canon answers first for the question that was asked. Then you can post your own house rules listed as your house rules.
I say what the classes ARE even if the books mislabel them, so get over it.

Mostly I write out exactly what I mean, then sometimes get even more finicky.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:42 am
  

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Knight

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Quote:
.If the rules do not specifically allowed something to happen, then it is not allowed under the canon rules

That is obviously not true, since there are no rules for the mechanics of eating foods or evacuating waste products, yet those clearly happen.

That said, stuff like 'skills of choice' allows choices except where restrictions are put.

You don't need any special rules to buy RPG Design Twice, just like you don't need any to buy Literacy twice. In the latter case, you may as well specialize it toward a different language if there is no benefit for Literacy: English being bought a 2nd time. RPG Design may not get higher %s but it at least gets it PE again.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:23 pm
  

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Axelmania wrote:
Quote:
.If the rules do not specifically allowed something to happen, then it is not allowed under the canon rules

That is obviously not true, since there are no rules for the mechanics of eating foods or evacuating waste products, yet those clearly happen.
...snip

Deflecting tactic, using something Irrelevant and has no value in the debate as if it actually negated the statement of the other.

We are talking about what skills a char can take. Not about ""story telling"". :crane:
-------

And spoken like a m. Twisting the meanings of the rules about into a pretzel till they do not resemble what was written.

Here is the flaw in YOUR argument. It says that each time the Lit. skills is taken it is for a new language, just like when another Language skill is selected.

From the Lit skill: "Like the spoken language skill,..."
from the Language skill: "Each selection gives the character knowledge of a different language and cost one skill selection."

You have already been informed how the Canon text works. Repeats.
Unless there is specific text that allows the taking of the exact same skill a 2nd time then you can only take it Exactly Once.
Your House Rules are not Canon.

I will agree with you that the Only One Time rule for Skills is not specifically stated: FAIK but I have not all the books; but when you have read the text as a whole there are things in the text that points it out. Little things like the rules about secondary domestic skills specifically being allowed to be taken again to raise the quality of the skill.

Yes I know people don't like to loose even when they are wrong, but the thing is...you are wrong in this when talking about what is Canon.

Now, as to RPG Design.
Within the N&S book it cannot even be taken once...let alone twice. It cannot be taken in other settings unless the GM imports it. Which is creating a house rules and thus is outside of canon. Thus again, the axioms you are basing your thinking off of are wrong.

Tangent:
You might argue that the RPG Design can be taken by MC chars.... MC does not specifically state that it is a N&S sourcebook and is written as a mainbook itself. Yes, everyone sees it as and treats it as a part of the N&S setting but where is the specific text that says it is? It is found in the N&S section in the PBOL store. But that is not specific text saying that it is a part of N&S setting.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:37 pm
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9951
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Tangent:
You might argue that the RPG Design can be taken by MC chars.... MC does not specifically state that it is a N&S sourcebook and is written as a mainbook itself. Yes, everyone sees it as and treats it as a part of the N&S setting but where is the specific text that says it is? It is found in the N&S section in the PBOL store. But that is not specific text saying that it is a part of N&S setting.


Page one at the bottom.
Where the book is described as
Mystic China wrote:
A massive sourcebook for use with Heroes UnlimitedTM, Ninjas & SuperspiesTM, and Beyond the SupernaturalTM."

It is a sourcebook for those three game systems.
That means that it is, officially, part of the canon of all three of those game lines until such time as there is an official statement that decanonizes its status as a sourcebook.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:35 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 3525
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Deflecting tactic, using something Irrelevant and has no value in the debate as if it actually negated the statement of the other.

We are talking about what skills a char can take. Not about ""story telling"". :crane:

This is not a deflection tactic. I'm showing how your unbacked assertion "If the rules do not specifically allowed something to happen, then it is not allowed under the canon rules" leads to absurdity.

Not that leading to absurdity is necessary to disprove you: you never proved this assertion in the first place.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
And spoken like a m. Twisting the meanings of the rules about into a pretzel till they do not resemble what was written.

Are you insulting me for being a munchkin or a male? Hard to tell with initials.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Here is the flaw in YOUR argument. It says that each time the Lit. skills is taken it is for a new language, just like when another Language skill is selected.

From the Lit skill: "Like the spoken language skill,..."
from the Language skill: "Each selection gives the character knowledge of a different language and cost one skill selection."

You have already been informed how the Canon text works. Repeats.

I don't see what bearing the Language description has here. Even if you draw on that for inspiration, you could say that each time you took RPG Design you are designing a different RPG system.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Unless there is specific text that allows the taking of the exact same skill a 2nd time then you can only take it Exactly Once.
Your House Rules are not Canon.

"you can only take it Exactly Once" is text you made up. That is your house rule.

Ignoring your house rule, I am free to select any skill I like, subject to printed restrictions, and printed restrictions against selecting a skill you already have only exist for the Physical category.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
I will agree with you that the Only One Time rule for Skills is not specifically stated: FAIK but I have not all the books; but when you have read the text as a whole there are things in the text that points it out.

So it is never stated, but you have the magical power to discern it being pointed out without being stated. IE you are making things up because that seems how it ought to be.

I have never seen an OCC or NPC with the RPG Design skill so I guess I could assume you're not supposed to be allowed to have it at all. But RAW you can select it once, and select it a dozen times, because that is what choice is.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Little things like the rules about secondary domestic skills specifically being allowed to be taken again to raise the quality of the skill.

That's a special benefit for double-selection. The lack of that benefit for other categories makes double-selection unappealing but not disallowed.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Yes I know people don't like to loose even when they are wrong, but the thing is...you are wrong in this when talking about what is Canon.

What is canon is... freedom.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Now, as to RPG Design.
Within the N&S book it cannot even be taken once...let alone twice.
It cannot be taken in other settings unless the GM imports it. Which is creating a house rules and thus is outside of canon. Thus again, the axioms you are basing your thinking off of are wrong.

Mystic China is not another setting and there are OCCs there with non-Secondary access to the Technical category.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
You might argue that the RPG Design can be taken by MC chars.... MC does not specifically state that it is a N&S sourcebook and is written as a mainbook itself. Yes, everyone sees it as and treats it as a part of the N&S setting but where is the specific text that says it is? It is found in the N&S section in the PBOL store. But that is not specific text saying that it is a part of N&S setting.

It is clearly not a "main book" because it lacks basic rules. It is clearly primarily based on N&SS rules because they have the same author and MC cites powers found in the main N&S book.

You could rule that it could also have HU/BtS as a source, as eliakon has pointed out, and there is some validity there since it mentions psionic powers for demons yet N&S doesn't have psi/ISP wher HU/BtS do.

So I suppose if you lacked MC you could selct from HU or BtS skill categories and not N&SS ones, but that isn't really like saying it's off limits, because MC is more of a N&SS book than it is a HU or BTS, as Palladium's catalog shows.

The rear cover spells this out pretty clearly: "for use with Ninjas and Superspies" right below the title. The 8th bullet elaborates with "Directly compatible with Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas and Superspies, TMNT and Beyond the Supernatural" but HU/TMNT/BTS are not honored with a subtitle rear cover listing like N&S is.


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